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Copper coils

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  • dearknarl
    Gday, I m in the prelim stages of designing a still, and I was wondering how tight copper tube can be coiled. For instance, is it possible to produce a coil of
    Message 1 of 11 , Feb 1 3:24 PM
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      Gday,

      I'm in the prelim stages of designing a still, and I was wondering
      how tight copper tube can be coiled.
      For instance, is it possible to produce a coil of 5mm copper tube to
      fit inside a 25mm pipe?

      And as an aside, can people give me their educated guesses on how big
      a copper coil condenser needs to be as a function of boiler power?

      Thanks.
      knarl.
    • Lindsay Williams
      Whoooo, that is a bit tight. You are talking of winding onto a 12-13mm former. I used 5mm tubing but onto a 37mm former. Why not use a piece of 50mm pipe for
      Message 2 of 11 , Feb 2 3:31 AM
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        Whoooo, that is a bit tight. You are talking of winding onto a 12-13mm
        former. I used 5mm tubing but onto a 37mm former. Why not use a piece
        of 50mm pipe for the coil shroud? I am sure it would be a lot easier
        to make and you would know it would work.

        As an example, I have a coil of 27 tns of 5mm in a 50mm column and
        this is sufficient for power of 800W. Water flow comes into it, too.
        It is hard to force water through 5mm tubing especially if your water
        pressure is quite low as ours is.

        Perhaps you could outline your still plan in more detail in case there
        are some suggestions for you.

        Cheers,
        Lindsay.

        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "dearknarl" <dearknarl@g...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > Gday,
        >
        > I'm in the prelim stages of designing a still, and I was wondering
        > how tight copper tube can be coiled.
        > For instance, is it possible to produce a coil of 5mm copper tube to
        > fit inside a 25mm pipe?
        >
        > And as an aside, can people give me their educated guesses on how big
        > a copper coil condenser needs to be as a function of boiler power?
        >
        > Thanks.
        > knarl.
      • dearknarl
        Thanks for the reply. ... I think I will use a 50mm pipe for the shroud, because I have no experience in bending pipes. When you say former you just mean
        Message 3 of 11 , Feb 2 3:17 PM
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          Thanks for the reply.

          > Whoooo, that is a bit tight. You are talking of winding onto a 12-
          >13mm
          > former. I used 5mm tubing but onto a 37mm former. Why not use a
          >piece
          > of 50mm pipe for the coil shroud? I am sure it would be a lot easier
          > to make and you would know it would work.

          I think I will use a 50mm pipe for the shroud, because I have no
          experience in bending pipes. When you say "former" you just mean
          something round to wrap it on, correct? And do you put packing down
          the middle of yours?

          > As an example, I have a coil of 27 tns of 5mm in a 50mm column and
          > this is sufficient for power of 800W. Water flow comes into it, too.
          > It is hard to force water through 5mm tubing especially if your
          >water
          > pressure is quite low as ours is.

          Funny you should mention this. I attempted to do some fluid mechanics
          calculations to work out the approximate pressure drop accross a
          length of 5mm copper pipe. So I could pick an appropriate pump to run
          a recirculation system.
          Turbulent flow would be best for cooling, and I estimated this at
          12mL per second. At that flow rate I would need to supply approx 186
          Pa of pressure for every meter of pipe. Your coil say would need
          about 700 Pa to run at turbulent flow. That is a fairly decent pump
          (head height 7m ).

          Does anyone succesfully use a pump with a copper coil condensor?? I
          want someone to tell me those calculations are way off =) because I
          don't want to spend too much on a pump.

          > Perhaps you could outline your still plan in more detail in case
          >there
          > are some suggestions for you.

          Still tossing up between vapour managemnet and offset head types.
          Vapour managemet looks more attractive other than the fact it would
          be harder to use as a pot still for stripping and other steam
          distillation.
          A hybrid beast might be in order ;) - I'll keep you posted.

          Regs,
          knarl.
        • Lindsay Williams
          I now have a SS scrubber poked into the top of my coil. I am sure it is beneficial in killing the last of the vapour. Yes, the former is as you say. My water
          Message 4 of 11 , Feb 2 5:58 PM
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            I now have a SS scrubber poked into the top of my coil. I am sure it
            is beneficial in killing the last of the vapour. Yes, the former is as
            you say.

            My water flow is about 400ml per minute. It is warm after going
            through the reflux coil and liebig.

            I recommend vapour management but I am biased as that is what I went
            for. I find it strips my tails quite satisfactorily. I open the valve
            fully and increase the power to 1700W. I also turn up the cooling
            water but you can put cling wrap or similar over the column top to
            direct all vapour into the valve.

            Cheers,
            Lindsay.

            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "dearknarl" <dearknarl@g...> wrote:
            >
            > Thanks for the reply.
            >
            > > Whoooo, that is a bit tight. You are talking of winding onto a 12-
            > >13mm
            > > former. I used 5mm tubing but onto a 37mm former. Why not use a
            > >piece
            > > of 50mm pipe for the coil shroud? I am sure it would be a lot easier
            > > to make and you would know it would work.
            >
            > I think I will use a 50mm pipe for the shroud, because I have no
            > experience in bending pipes. When you say "former" you just mean
            > something round to wrap it on, correct? And do you put packing down
            > the middle of yours?
            >
            > > As an example, I have a coil of 27 tns of 5mm in a 50mm column and
            > > this is sufficient for power of 800W. Water flow comes into it, too.
            > > It is hard to force water through 5mm tubing especially if your
            > >water
            > > pressure is quite low as ours is.
            >
            > Funny you should mention this. I attempted to do some fluid mechanics
            > calculations to work out the approximate pressure drop accross a
            > length of 5mm copper pipe. So I could pick an appropriate pump to run
            > a recirculation system.
            > Turbulent flow would be best for cooling, and I estimated this at
            > 12mL per second. At that flow rate I would need to supply approx 186
            > Pa of pressure for every meter of pipe. Your coil say would need
            > about 700 Pa to run at turbulent flow. That is a fairly decent pump
            > (head height 7m ).
            >
            > Does anyone succesfully use a pump with a copper coil condensor?? I
            > want someone to tell me those calculations are way off =) because I
            > don't want to spend too much on a pump.
            >
            > > Perhaps you could outline your still plan in more detail in case
            > >there
            > > are some suggestions for you.
            >
            > Still tossing up between vapour managemnet and offset head types.
            > Vapour managemet looks more attractive other than the fact it would
            > be harder to use as a pot still for stripping and other steam
            > distillation.
            > A hybrid beast might be in order ;) - I'll keep you posted.
            >
            > Regs,
            > knarl.
          • Harry
            ... mechanics ... run ... 186 ... pump ... I ... I ... You ve just run up against the main reason most stills run a total loss coolant. Centrifugal pumps
            Message 5 of 11 , Feb 3 12:48 AM
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              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "dearknarl" <dearknarl@g...>
              wrote:
              > Funny you should mention this. I attempted to do some fluid
              mechanics
              > calculations to work out the approximate pressure drop accross a
              > length of 5mm copper pipe. So I could pick an appropriate pump to
              run
              > a recirculation system.
              > Turbulent flow would be best for cooling, and I estimated this at
              > 12mL per second. At that flow rate I would need to supply approx
              186
              > Pa of pressure for every meter of pipe. Your coil say would need
              > about 700 Pa to run at turbulent flow. That is a fairly decent
              pump
              > (head height 7m ).
              >
              > Does anyone succesfully use a pump with a copper coil condensor??
              I
              > want someone to tell me those calculations are way off =) because
              I
              > don't want to spend too much on a pump.



              You've just run up against the main reason most stills run a 'total
              loss' coolant. Centrifugal pumps and small-bore tubing are a fatal
              mix. The minimum pump you will get away with in centrifugals is 1/2
              HP 7M head sump pump. They are expensive to buy, and expensive to
              run (~380w/hr). There are ways to beat this. If you simply must go
              with wound coil, what you need is a PD pump (positive displacement),
              or as Jimpuchai said a while back, maybe a peristaltic pump. These
              deliver a constant volume over time regardless of the pipe diameter,
              and are cheap to run.

              Slainte!
              regards Harry
            • abbababbaccc
              Why not make it aircooled? It s pretty easy to make a passive aircooled condenser that handles a bit over 1000W, costs ~35 euros or even less if you make pipes
              Message 6 of 11 , Feb 3 2:46 AM
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                Why not make it aircooled? It's pretty easy to make a passive
                aircooled condenser that handles a bit over 1000W, costs ~35 euros or
                even less if you make pipes yourself.

                Greetz, Riku

                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@y...> wrote:
                >
                > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "dearknarl" <dearknarl@g...>
                > wrote:
                > > Funny you should mention this. I attempted to do some fluid
                > mechanics
                > > calculations to work out the approximate pressure drop accross a
                > > length of 5mm copper pipe. So I could pick an appropriate pump to
                > run
                > > a recirculation system.
                > > Turbulent flow would be best for cooling, and I estimated this at
                > > 12mL per second. At that flow rate I would need to supply approx
                > 186
                > > Pa of pressure for every meter of pipe. Your coil say would need
                > > about 700 Pa to run at turbulent flow. That is a fairly decent
                > pump
                > > (head height 7m ).
                > >
                > > Does anyone succesfully use a pump with a copper coil condensor??
                > I
                > > want someone to tell me those calculations are way off =) because
                > I
                > > don't want to spend too much on a pump.
                >
                >
                >
                > You've just run up against the main reason most stills run a 'total
                > loss' coolant. Centrifugal pumps and small-bore tubing are a fatal
                > mix. The minimum pump you will get away with in centrifugals is
                1/2
                > HP 7M head sump pump. They are expensive to buy, and expensive to
                > run (~380w/hr). There are ways to beat this. If you simply must
                go
                > with wound coil, what you need is a PD pump (positive
                displacement),
                > or as Jimpuchai said a while back, maybe a peristaltic pump. These
                > deliver a constant volume over time regardless of the pipe
                diameter,
                > and are cheap to run.
                >
                > Slainte!
                > regards Harry
              • Neil Stephens
                Gday Riku, ... This is something I ve considered, but I didn t want to muck around and end up with something that couldn t handle the capacity. I m always one
                Message 7 of 11 , Feb 3 11:25 PM
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                  Gday Riku,

                  >
                  > Why not make it aircooled? It's pretty easy ... 1000W
                  >

                  This is something I've considered, but I didn't want to muck around
                  and end up with something that couldn't handle the capacity. I'm
                  always one for overkill =). Feel free to elaborate on what kind of
                  design you're talking about. Directly air cooled or some intermediate
                  heat transfer medium involved?
                • abbababbaccc
                  ... intermediate ... Directly air cooled. 22mm aluminium convector pipes can cool ~400W/meter with ambient cooling and they ll flood at ~1200W. Adding a fan to
                  Message 8 of 11 , Feb 4 12:11 AM
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                    --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Neil Stephens <dearknarl@g...>
                    wrote:
                    > Gday Riku,
                    >
                    > >
                    > > Why not make it aircooled? It's pretty easy ... 1000W
                    > >
                    >
                    > This is something I've considered, but I didn't want to muck around
                    > and end up with something that couldn't handle the capacity. I'm
                    > always one for overkill =). Feel free to elaborate on what kind of
                    > design you're talking about. Directly air cooled or some
                    intermediate
                    > heat transfer medium involved?

                    Directly air cooled. 22mm aluminium convector pipes can cool
                    ~400W/meter with ambient cooling and they'll flood at ~1200W. Adding
                    a fan to blow through will roughly double or triple the efficiency. I
                    have 1 meter piece as a reflux condenser on top of my still (close to
                    horizontal position) and it handles 800W element with uninsulated
                    boiler and well insulated column. You can use longer piece and make
                    it "zig-zag" shape to save space. Additionally if you have room just
                    stick it up and have a fan to blow through.

                    Greetz, Riku
                  • dearknarl
                    ... What kind of ambient temperature are you assuming? It might not perform so well on a hot summers day here in say the high 30 s C ;-) Thanks for the info
                    Message 9 of 11 , Feb 4 12:30 AM
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                      >
                      > Directly air cooled. 22mm aluminium convector pipes can cool
                      > ~400W/meter with ambient cooling and they'll flood at ~1200W. Adding
                      > a fan to blow through will roughly double or triple the efficiency. I
                      > have 1 meter piece as a reflux condenser on top of my still (close to
                      > horizontal position) and it handles 800W element with uninsulated
                      > boiler and well insulated column. You can use longer piece and make
                      > it "zig-zag" shape to save space. Additionally if you have room just
                      > stick it up and have a fan to blow through.
                      >
                      > Greetz, Riku

                      What kind of ambient temperature are you assuming? It might not
                      perform so well on a hot summers day here in say the high 30's C ;-)
                      Thanks for the info though. I'm getting a good idea of how much oomph
                      a condenser needs for certain boiler powers.

                      Regs,
                      knarl.
                    • abbababbaccc
                      ... Adding ... efficiency. I ... (close to ... make ... just ... oomph ... I ve run it at bit over 25C and it worked great. Can t say for sure at close to 40C
                      Message 10 of 11 , Feb 5 1:52 AM
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                        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "dearknarl" <dearknarl@g...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > >
                        > > Directly air cooled. 22mm aluminium convector pipes can cool
                        > > ~400W/meter with ambient cooling and they'll flood at ~1200W.
                        Adding
                        > > a fan to blow through will roughly double or triple the
                        efficiency. I
                        > > have 1 meter piece as a reflux condenser on top of my still
                        (close to
                        > > horizontal position) and it handles 800W element with uninsulated
                        > > boiler and well insulated column. You can use longer piece and
                        make
                        > > it "zig-zag" shape to save space. Additionally if you have room
                        just
                        > > stick it up and have a fan to blow through.
                        > >
                        > > Greetz, Riku
                        >
                        > What kind of ambient temperature are you assuming? It might not
                        > perform so well on a hot summers day here in say the high 30's C ;-)
                        > Thanks for the info though. I'm getting a good idea of how much
                        oomph
                        > a condenser needs for certain boiler powers.
                        >
                        > Regs,
                        > knarl.

                        I've run it at bit over 25C and it worked great. Can't say for sure
                        at close to 40C (no such temperatures here), might require more pipe
                        length.

                        Greetz, Riku
                      • Harry
                        ... ) ... oomph ... http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/ Look for the new tagged booklet. Riku has put together a collection of notes & photos of his
                        Message 11 of 11 , Feb 5 12:13 PM
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                          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "dearknarl" <dearknarl@g...>
                          wrote:

                          > > Directly air cooled. 22mm aluminium convector pipes can cool
                          > > ~400W/meter with ambient cooling and they'll flood at ~1200W.

                          > > stick it up and have a fan to blow through.
                          > >
                          > > Greetz, Riku
                          ---------------------------------------

                          >
                          > What kind of ambient temperature are you assuming? It might not
                          > perform so well on a hot summers day here in say the high 30's C ;-
                          )
                          > Thanks for the info though. I'm getting a good idea of how much
                          oomph
                          > a condenser needs for certain boiler powers.
                          >
                          > Regs,
                          > knarl.


                          http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/
                          Look for the "new" tagged booklet. Riku has put together a
                          collection of notes & photos of his work / experiments over the
                          years. His air-cooled stuff is in there.

                          Slainte!
                          regards Harry
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