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Re: Trial Run on Reflx Column

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  • Harry
    ... through job. I do ... taste. I f I ... Ok. There s a couple of things you need to get your head around. 1) The volume of a column is Pi x R^2 x Ht. For a
    Message 1 of 8 , Jan 1, 2005
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      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, suitcase1499@a... wrote:
      >
      > This was 50 liter turbo sugar wash and planning just a once
      through job. I do
      > some test on when to take the heart on some mostly by smell and
      taste. I f I
      > run it hotter I will lose alot of %ABV right ??? Thanks
      >
      > Suitcase



      Ok. There's a couple of things you need to get your head around.

      1) The volume of a column is Pi x R^2 x Ht.
      For a 1.5" column that's 46 cu.in.
      For a 2" column that's 81 cu.in.
      There's a considerable difference for a slight increase, no?

      2) For any given power input, if you halve the column volume, as in
      the above, then the vapor speed up the column will double. This of
      course means less purity of product. It also means that product
      takeoff through a column & liebig (or any setup) is limited by the
      harmonic balancing of power input and column capacity Just throwing
      monster condensers at the problem doesn't cut it. Slow vapor speed
      is crucial to a clean product, be it whiskey or vodka or whatever.

      Regarding tests:
      The accepted throw-away for 25L beer is 50ml. It then follows that
      for 50L it would be at least 100ml, no? But smell is always a
      deciding factor. Heads is a different matter. It can be as much as
      30% of the run, or as little as 10%. The only way to determine it
      is to take small samples (20ml) and dilute them with 2 volumes of
      distilled water (40ml). If it's cloudy, it's still heads. If it's
      clear, it's hearts. That's how the Scottish Malt distillers test in
      the spirit safe (they use larger samples, obviously). The trick is
      being able to take just a LITTLE of the last of the heads to give a
      distinct note to your whisky. One way is to collect the heads in
      small containers, say 200 ~ 300ml, and then take the LAST one to add
      to the genuine hearts.

      If you can understand all of the above ramblings, we'll make a
      stillman outta you yet. :-))

      HTH
      Slainte!
      regards Harry
    • Harry
      ... One more point I forgot to mention. Propane is a fast heat source, but it s economy and efficiency is degraded if it s just a gas ring under a pot.
      Message 2 of 8 , Jan 1, 2005
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        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@y...>
        wrote:
        >
        > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, suitcase1499@a... wrote:
        > >
        > > This was 50 liter turbo sugar wash and planning just a once
        > through job. I do
        > > some test on when to take the heart on some mostly by smell and
        > taste. I f I
        > > run it hotter I will lose alot of %ABV right ??? Thanks
        > >
        > > Suitcase
        >
        >
        >
        > Ok. There's a couple of things you need to get your head around.
        >
        > 1) The volume of a column is Pi x R^2 x Ht.
        <snip>


        One more point I forgot to mention. Propane is a fast heat source,
        but it's economy and efficiency is degraded if it's just a gas ring
        under a pot. Much heat is lost to the surrounding air. It really
        needs to be incorporated into some form of firebox. Surround the
        thing with fire-brick to direct all the heat to the pot bottom.
        Conversely, build a metal skirt with air draught holes so the flames
        get oxygen, yet the heat is trapped. You'll be amazed at how much
        quicker it heats the beer, as well as being somewhat safer. Of
        course it will reduce the amount of heat you'll have in the barn,
        but you've got internal heating with whiskey, no? :-))

        Slainte!
        regards Harry
      • suitcase1499@aol.com
        In a message dated 1/1/2005 7:52:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... OK Harry, You lost me there I m a dumbass country boy with a little education not a Masters
        Message 3 of 8 , Jan 1, 2005
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          In a message dated 1/1/2005 7:52:30 PM Eastern Standard Time,
          gnikomson2000@... writes:

          > Ok. There's a couple of things you need to get your head around.
          >
          > 1) The volume of a column is Pi x R^2 x Ht.



          OK Harry,
          You lost me there I'm a dumbass country boy with a little
          education not a Masters Degree (LOL) I have no idea what that means. and I do
          have a metal ring not fire brick just steel with air holes to direct the heat, a
          friend made it for me to fit the bottom of the keg. But it still helps heat
          the barn I have it in an enclosed stall of 8' x 12' with a lot of air holes
          believe me. Bottom line is how can I increase output would two columns do it or
          just need two stills.???? Thanks

          Oh yeah I do have that internal heat source for myself 86 proof plain sugar
          head : )

          Suitcase.


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Harry
          ... little ... means. and I do ... direct the heat, a ... helps heat ... air holes ... columns do it or ... plain sugar ... Sorry about the maths equation. The
          Message 4 of 8 , Jan 1, 2005
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            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, suitcase1499@a... wrote:
            > OK Harry,
            > You lost me there I'm a dumbass country boy with a
            little
            > education not a Masters Degree (LOL) I have no idea what that
            means. and I do
            > have a metal ring not fire brick just steel with air holes to
            direct the heat, a
            > friend made it for me to fit the bottom of the keg. But it still
            helps heat
            > the barn I have it in an enclosed stall of 8' x 12' with a lot of
            air holes
            > believe me. Bottom line is how can I increase output would two
            columns do it or
            > just need two stills.???? Thanks
            >
            > Oh yeah I do have that internal heat source for myself 86 proof
            plain sugar
            > head : )
            >
            > Suitcase.


            Sorry about the maths equation. The reason I gave it is to explain
            why a small increase in column diameter gives such a large change in
            performance or output, which is the "bottom line answer" to your
            question. YOU NEED A BIGGER DIAMETER COLUMN to achieve bigger
            output. (not shouting, just emphasising) :-)

            All is relative. To increase output, you need to put more vapor up
            the column. This requires more applied heat. More heat requires an
            increase in column capacity, otherwise the vapor speed will increase
            also, and reduce your purity.

            The math on column capacity is easy to follow if you remember back
            to school when they taught about circles. There are formulae for
            circumference, area, cylinder volume (that's what we want).

            To explain: Pi is always 3.1416 (near enough). R is radius of
            column (half the diameter). ^2 is the previous number (radius)
            multiplied by itself. Ht is the height of the column.
            So for your column (cylinder) it's:
            Pi x R^2 x Ht
            3.1416 x 0.75" x 0.75" x 26" which gives 46 cubic inches.

            If you increase the column to 2", then:
            3.1416 x 1.0" x 1.0" x 26" which gives 81 cubic inches, nearly
            double the volume or capacity.

            This will enable you to increase the heat input without increasing
            the vapor speed. Then you'll get your increased product output and
            no loss of quality. But remember, all is relative. If you increase
            the heat, you need to remove that increased heat at the condenser,
            IOW up the coolant flowrate to match.

            Slainte!
            regards Harry
          • suitcase1499@aol.com
            In a message dated 1/1/2005 11:43:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, gnikomson2000@yahoo.com writes: This will enable you to increase the heat input without
            Message 5 of 8 , Jan 1, 2005
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              In a message dated 1/1/2005 11:43:05 PM Eastern Standard Time,
              gnikomson2000@... writes:

              This will enable you to increase the heat input without increasing
              the vapor speed. Then you'll get your increased product output and
              no loss of quality. But remember, all is relative. If you increase
              the heat, you need to remove that increased heat at the condenser,
              IOW up the coolant flowrate to match.

              Slainte!
              regards Harry



              My pump is a standard sump pump it recirculates the water at 25GPM or 1250
              GPH this should do Huh??? I'm thinking of going to a 3" or maybe 4" column, As
              all my friends are drunks as well (LOL) How much output could I expect from
              that??? Thanks Harry. This shit is new to me I've always been potstill man we
              never had a thermometer in one I don't think till I was about 16 or 18 years
              old.I'm from the mountains of North Carolina all we knew was corn liquor and now
              I'm trying to learn some new stuff to pass on to my grand kids. I really
              appreciate all you do to help, The internet is a graet thing since I've finally
              learned how to use it. Many thanks Harry.

              Suitcase


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Harry
              ... or 1250 ... I m thinking of going to a 3 or maybe 4 column, As ... expect from ... Thanks Harry. This shit is new to me I ve always been potstill man we
              Message 6 of 8 , Jan 1, 2005
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                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, suitcase1499@a... wrote:
                > My pump is a standard sump pump it recirculates the water at 25GPM
                or 1250
                > GPH this should do Huh???



                >>>>>> Definitely.


                I'm thinking of going to a 3" or maybe 4" column, As
                > all my friends are drunks as well (LOL) How much output could I
                expect from
                > that???


                >>>>>>> Heh, do the math. ;-)


                Thanks Harry. This shit is new to me I've always been potstill man
                we
                > never had a thermometer in one I don't think till I was about 16
                or 18 years
                > old.I'm from the mountains of North Carolina all we knew was corn
                liquor and now
                > I'm trying to learn some new stuff to pass on to my grand kids.


                >>>>>>>>> If you want to leave a legacy, lose the liebig section and
                go to a proper reflux outfit with condenser to match. There's loads
                about coils, offset and crossflow heads in the archives and on
                Tony's site http://homedistiller.org
                Trust me, the grandkids will appreciate it.


                I really
                > appreciate all you do to help, The internet is a graet thing since
                I've finally
                > learned how to use it. Many thanks Harry.

                >>>>>>>>>>>> You're welcome. Just a word about that 3 or 4"
                column. Now you're getting into the realms of shall we say "above
                average" home distilling. ;-)
                You'll need to have a much larger surface area in the boiling wash
                for the larger volume of vapor to escape. A simple solution to that
                is to take said keg, turn it on it's SIDE, cut a hole in the side to
                match your salad bowl and big column, then put 2 or 3 burners or
                modified gaspipes under the thing. Of course you'll need to plate
                off the existing hole you've got. With a rig like that you could
                get a couple GALLONS per hour, but it's no longer a hobby thing, is
                it? :^)

                Slainte!
                regards Harry
              • suitcase1499@aol.com
                In a message dated 1/2/2005 12:14:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, ... go to a proper reflux outfit with condenser to match. There s loads about coils, offset and
                Message 7 of 8 , Jan 1, 2005
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                  In a message dated 1/2/2005 12:14:54 AM Eastern Standard Time,
                  gnikomson2000@... writes:

                  >>>>>>>>> If you want to leave a legacy, lose the liebig section and
                  go to a proper reflux outfit with condenser to match. There's loads
                  about coils, offset and crossflow heads in the archives and on
                  Tony's site http://homedistiller.org
                  Trust me, the grandkids will appreciate it


                  Do you mean like a Nixon Stone or something like Alex makes so as the vapor
                  doesn't flow through the condensor , just the coolant and the vapor goes to it
                  condeses and falls back down ??? As I said I'm just a dumbass country boy...
                  Thanks Again Harry I really apreciate all your help. Excuse my spelling it's
                  12:30 am here 1/2/05 I'm about half lit. : ) What time is it there.

                  Suitcase


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