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Re: [Distillers] No Cook Mash

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  • Shane Kirkman
    Could you post your cornflake recipe please Suitcase? ... From: Subject: Re: [Distillers] No Cook Mash ... flavor I ... or
    Message 1 of 21 , Dec 31, 1996
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      Could you post your cornflake recipe please Suitcase?


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: <suitcase1499@...>
      Subject: Re: [Distillers] No Cook Mash
      >
      > I have had good luck with corn flakes breakfast cereal and grits but I do
      > cook them for a few minutes and add sugar but still get a decent whiskey
      flavor I
      > also use oak and hickory wood chips toasted to age for a couple of weeks
      or
      > longer if I can. Then carbon filter.
      >
      > Suitcase
    • Saul Sabia
      So i went looking through the archives and found a little bit here and there on no-cook mashing, and of course i assimilated all the information on
      Message 2 of 21 , Nov 30, 2004
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        So i went looking through the archives and found a little bit here and there on no-cook
        mashing, and of course i assimilated all the information on homedistillers web site, and
        it seems rather straight-forward. what i was wondering is if anyone here either has done
        or is doing no-cook mashing. if so, what recipe/procedure and how were the results?
        i'm looking to make whiskey, and i don't have the hours to do a full all-grain mash!

        thanks in advance, you've all been very helpful and informative!


        Saul






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      • suitcase1499@aol.com
        I have had good luck with corn flakes breakfast cereal and grits but I do cook them for a few minutes and add sugar but still get a decent whiskey flavor I
        Message 3 of 21 , Nov 30, 2004
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          I have had good luck with corn flakes breakfast cereal and grits but I do
          cook them for a few minutes and add sugar but still get a decent whiskey flavor I
          also use oak and hickory wood chips toasted to age for a couple of weeks or
          longer if I can. Then carbon filter.

          Suitcase


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • abeck111
          Exactly what is the purpose of carbon filtering? Is it necessary? Or is it just used for clarifying? Drew ... but I do ... whiskey flavor I ... weeks or
          Message 4 of 21 , Nov 30, 2004
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            Exactly what is the purpose of carbon filtering? Is it necessary?
            Or is it just used for clarifying?

            Drew

            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, suitcase1499@a... wrote:
            > I have had good luck with corn flakes breakfast cereal and grits
            but I do
            > cook them for a few minutes and add sugar but still get a decent
            whiskey flavor I
            > also use oak and hickory wood chips toasted to age for a couple of
            weeks or
            > longer if I can. Then carbon filter.
            >
            > Suitcase
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • _{*L*}_
            activated carbon will souak in some by-products of fermentation. it just happens that these by-products are very nasty tasting and smelling components.
            Message 5 of 21 , Nov 30, 2004
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              activated carbon will souak in some by-products of fermentation. it just happens that these by-products are very nasty tasting and smelling components. activated carbon (clean) makes it easier to drink. for the final touch and the smoothest taste you shoul do it.

              abeck111 <abeck111@...> wrote:
              Exactly what is the purpose of carbon filtering? Is it necessary?
              Or is it just used for clarifying?

              Drew

              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, suitcase1499@a... wrote:
              > I have had good luck with corn flakes breakfast cereal and grits
              but I do
              > cook them for a few minutes and add sugar but still get a decent
              whiskey flavor I
              > also use oak and hickory wood chips toasted to age for a couple of
              weeks or
              > longer if I can. Then carbon filter.
              >
              > Suitcase
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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            • Rana Pipiens
              Saul, I haven t done it yet but Ian Smiley s book Making Pure Corn Whiskey has complete instructions for doing a no cook mash . Good Luck, Rana Saul Sabia
              Message 6 of 21 , Dec 1, 2004
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                Saul, I haven't done it yet but Ian Smiley's book Making Pure Corn Whiskey has complete instructions for doing a "no cook mash". Good Luck, Rana

                Saul Sabia <saul_sabia@...> wrote:
                So i went looking through the archives and found a little bit here and there on no-cook
                mashing, and of course i assimilated all the information on homedistillers web site, and
                it seems rather straight-forward. what i was wondering is if anyone here either has done
                or is doing no-cook mashing. if so, what recipe/procedure and how were the results?
                i'm looking to make whiskey, and i don't have the hours to do a full all-grain mash!

                thanks in advance, you've all been very helpful and informative!


                Saul






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              • waljaco
                Not quite. Ian Smiley recommends flaked maize (corn) which is precooked, like rolled oats etc. wal ... Whiskey has complete instructions for doing a no cook
                Message 7 of 21 , Dec 1, 2004
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                  Not quite. Ian Smiley recommends flaked maize (corn) which is
                  precooked, like rolled oats etc.
                  wal
                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Rana Pipiens <ranawater@y...>
                  wrote:
                  > Saul, I haven't done it yet but Ian Smiley's book Making Pure Corn
                  Whiskey has complete instructions for doing a "no cook mash". Good
                  Luck, Rana
                  >
                  > Saul Sabia <saul_sabia@y...> wrote:
                  > So i went looking through the archives and found a little bit here
                  and there on no-cook
                  > mashing, and of course i assimilated all the information on
                  homedistillers web site, and
                  > it seems rather straight-forward. what i was wondering is if anyone
                  here either has done
                  > or is doing no-cook mashing. if so, what recipe/procedure and how
                  were the results?
                  > i'm looking to make whiskey, and i don't have the hours to do a
                  full all-grain mash!
                  >
                  > thanks in advance, you've all been very helpful and informative!
                  >
                  >
                  > Saul
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
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                • Rana Pipiens
                  Wal, check page 149 of Ian s book. He gives a recipe for a no-cook sour mash that uses grain meal (corn, rye or millet) and uses the same batch of grain for
                  Message 8 of 21 , Dec 2, 2004
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                    Wal, check page 149 of Ian's book. He gives a recipe for a no-cook sour mash that uses grain meal (corn, rye or millet) and uses the same batch of grain for three batches. I haven't tried it yet but it is always my next experiment. Rana


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                  • Andrew Forsberg
                    That s odd -- the PDF copy here only has 103 pages... Is yours a new edition?
                    Message 9 of 21 , Dec 2, 2004
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                      That's odd -- the PDF copy here only has 103 pages... Is yours a new
                      edition?

                      On Thu, 2004-12-02 at 09:47 -0800, Rana Pipiens wrote:
                      >
                      > Wal, check page 149 of Ian's book. He gives a recipe for a no-cook sour mash that uses grain meal (corn, rye or millet) and uses the same batch of grain for three batches. I haven't tried it yet but it is always my next experiment. Rana
                    • Rana Pipiens
                      Andrew, I have the hard copy and its the 2nd edition. The recipe is in chapter 13 entitled Traditional Sour-Mash Whiskey. Let sme know if you find it. Rana.
                      Message 10 of 21 , Dec 2, 2004
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                        Andrew, I have the hard copy and its the 2nd edition. The recipe is in chapter 13 entitled "Traditional Sour-Mash Whiskey. Let sme know if you find it. Rana.

                        Andrew Forsberg <andrew@...> wrote:That's odd -- the PDF copy here only has 103 pages... Is yours a new
                        edition?

                        On Thu, 2004-12-02 at 09:47 -0800, Rana Pipiens wrote:
                        >
                        > Wal, check page 149 of Ian's book. He gives a recipe for a no-cook sour mash that uses grain meal (corn, rye or millet) and uses the same batch of grain for three batches. I haven't tried it yet but it is always my next experiment. Rana




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                      • Andrew Forsberg
                        Hi Rana, Sounds like the second edition is definitely worth buying. I ll have to have a word with Santa about that. :) Cheers Andrew
                        Message 11 of 21 , Dec 2, 2004
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                          Hi Rana,

                          Sounds like the second edition is definitely worth buying. I'll have to
                          have a word with Santa about that. :)

                          Cheers
                          Andrew


                          On Thu, 2004-12-02 at 11:11 -0800, Rana Pipiens wrote:
                          > Andrew, I have the hard copy and its the 2nd edition. The recipe is in chapter 13 entitled "Traditional Sour-Mash Whiskey. Let sme know if you find it. Rana.
                        • Saul Sabia
                          ... i ve read two different viewpoints on this: a) that the starch in grain must be gelatinized to be accessible to the enzymes. this requires some form of
                          Message 12 of 21 , Dec 2, 2004
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                            > > Saul, I haven't done it yet but Ian Smiley's book Making Pure Corn
                            > > Whiskey has complete instructions for doing a "no cook mash".
                            > > Good Luck, Rana

                            > Not quite. Ian Smiley recommends flaked maize (corn) which is
                            > precooked, like rolled oats etc.
                            > wal


                            i've read two different viewpoints on this: a) that the starch in
                            grain must be gelatinized to be accessible to the enzymes. this requires
                            some form of heating/cooking, period. b) that the starch in the grain can
                            be made accessible to the enzymes by means of hydration simply by
                            soaking and while it won't be a complete conversion, a majority of the
                            grain will be converted, accessible to the enzyme, and that the
                            water medium will convey the enzymes around enough to do their job.

                            if i understand correctly, the enzymes will work, to some extent,
                            irregardless of temperature (though i imagine there is a curve and
                            i do know that higher temps will deactivate enzymes, ie, 150F will
                            quickly deactivate alpha and beta amylases, etc.). the question that
                            i am asking, specifically, is if anyone has tried a no-cook recipe
                            using any form of grain. if so, what was the conversion? how long
                            did it take? what abv did you achieve? what was your recipe? would
                            you ever do it again? did you use sugar, and what type of yeast did
                            you use?

                            if i have to cook, i sure will. but my eventual interest is to get
                            into home fuel production. if i can leave 100 lbs of grain in a
                            55 gal bucket with a few cans of tomato paste, some beano, and a
                            dozen packets of bread yeast for two weeks and distill it for a few
                            gallons of 95% ethanol you can be dang sure i'd prefer that to spending
                            4-12 hours cooking the grain.

                            i do brew beer, and i'v never heard of somone doing a no-cook beer
                            recipe (even syrup brewers have to do *some* work =) and imagine the
                            taste would be nasty, but if you don't care about the taste quite so
                            much (ie, you can distill it out) and it works with less energy and time,
                            why not? (and uncooked grains are still cheaper anyways)

                            (i apologize for the length, but i want to make sure i'm absolutely
                            clear about everything ... thank you for your patience =)


                            Saul



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                          • Rana Pipiens
                            Saul check out Ian s Chapter 13, Traditional Sour-Mash Whiskey for a description of a no cook mash using either corn meal, rye meal or millet meal. It is on
                            Message 13 of 21 , Dec 2, 2004
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                              Saul check out Ian's Chapter 13, "Traditional Sour-Mash Whiskey" for a description of a no cook mash using either corn meal, rye meal or millet meal. It is on page 149 of the 2nd edition. It involves using the same grain for three batches adding sugar and water to each batch. The addition of sugar would probably make it unsuitable for your fuel purposes though. If you buy the book, you can contact Ian and ask him your questions, http://magma.ca/~smiley/index.htm . Rana

                              Saul Sabia <saul_sabia@...> wrote:
                              > > Saul, I haven't done it yet but Ian Smiley's book Making Pure Corn
                              > > Whiskey has complete instructions for doing a "no cook mash".
                              > > Good Luck, Rana

                              > Not quite. Ian Smiley recommends flaked maize (corn) which is
                              > precooked, like rolled oats etc.
                              > wal


                              i've read two different viewpoints on this: a) that the starch in
                              grain must be gelatinized to be accessible to the enzymes. this requires
                              some form of heating/cooking, period. b) that the starch in the grain can
                              be made accessible to the enzymes by means of hydration simply by
                              soaking and while it won't be a complete conversion, a majority of the
                              grain will be converted, accessible to the enzyme, and that the
                              water medium will convey the enzymes around enough to do their job.

                              if i understand correctly, the enzymes will work, to some extent,
                              irregardless of temperature (though i imagine there is a curve and
                              i do know that higher temps will deactivate enzymes, ie, 150F will
                              quickly deactivate alpha and beta amylases, etc.). the question that
                              i am asking, specifically, is if anyone has tried a no-cook recipe
                              using any form of grain. if so, what was the conversion? how long
                              did it take? what abv did you achieve? what was your recipe? would
                              you ever do it again? did you use sugar, and what type of yeast did
                              you use?

                              if i have to cook, i sure will. but my eventual interest is to get
                              into home fuel production. if i can leave 100 lbs of grain in a
                              55 gal bucket with a few cans of tomato paste, some beano, and a
                              dozen packets of bread yeast for two weeks and distill it for a few
                              gallons of 95% ethanol you can be dang sure i'd prefer that to spending
                              4-12 hours cooking the grain.

                              i do brew beer, and i'v never heard of somone doing a no-cook beer
                              recipe (even syrup brewers have to do *some* work =) and imagine the
                              taste would be nasty, but if you don't care about the taste quite so
                              much (ie, you can distill it out) and it works with less energy and time,
                              why not? (and uncooked grains are still cheaper anyways)

                              (i apologize for the length, but i want to make sure i'm absolutely
                              clear about everything ... thank you for your patience =)


                              Saul



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                            • waljaco
                              I have the first edition of Ian Smiley s Pure Corn whiskey. This is what it says about Cereal Grains - To mash cereal grains that are not flaked, they need to
                              Message 14 of 21 , Dec 3, 2004
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                                I have the first edition of Ian Smiley's Pure Corn whiskey. This is
                                what it says about Cereal Grains -
                                "To mash cereal grains that are not flaked, they need to be boiled in
                                order to disperse their starches in the mash water."
                                What does your edition say?

                                This is what it says about Gluco-amylase (aka amyloglucosidase,
                                alpha=glucosidase) -
                                "Gluco-amylase is a laboratory-prepared enzyme that is used in
                                mashing to reduce, if not eliminate, the proportion of fermentable
                                sugars in the mash. Mashing using malt enzymes produces a small
                                proportion of unfermentable sugars (dextrins and polysaccharides). In
                                brewing, these unfermentable sugars are essential to the body and
                                malt character of the beer, but in distilling they only represent
                                lost alcohol yield."
                                wal
                                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Rana Pipiens <ranawater@y...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                > Wal, check page 149 of Ian's book. He gives a recipe for a no-cook
                                sour mash that uses grain meal (corn, rye or millet) and uses the
                                same batch of grain for three batches. I haven't tried it yet but it
                                is always my next experiment. Rana
                                >
                                >
                                > ---------------------------------
                                > Do you Yahoo!?
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                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • waljaco
                                Bakers use the non-cook method almost exclusively. The starch cells are damaged mechanically by grinding, producing flour which contains sufficient natural
                                Message 15 of 21 , Dec 3, 2004
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                                  Bakers use the non-cook method almost exclusively. The starch cells
                                  are damaged mechanically by grinding, producing flour which contains
                                  sufficient natural enzymes to convert sufficient starch to sugars for
                                  the added yeast to work on. The fermentation is stopped as alcohol is
                                  not the goal! These days to speed things up enzymes are added.
                                  See msg 19765 etc.
                                  wal
                                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Saul Sabia <saul_sabia@y...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > > Saul, I haven't done it yet but Ian Smiley's book Making Pure
                                  Corn
                                  > > > Whiskey has complete instructions for doing a "no cook mash".
                                  > > > Good Luck, Rana
                                  >
                                  > > Not quite. Ian Smiley recommends flaked maize (corn) which is
                                  > > precooked, like rolled oats etc.
                                  > > wal
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > i've read two different viewpoints on this: a) that the starch in
                                  > grain must be gelatinized to be accessible to the enzymes. this
                                  requires
                                  > some form of heating/cooking, period. b) that the starch in the
                                  grain can
                                  > be made accessible to the enzymes by means of hydration simply by
                                  > soaking and while it won't be a complete conversion, a majority of
                                  the
                                  > grain will be converted, accessible to the enzyme, and that the
                                  > water medium will convey the enzymes around enough to do their job.
                                  >
                                  > if i understand correctly, the enzymes will work, to some extent,
                                  > irregardless of temperature (though i imagine there is a curve and
                                  > i do know that higher temps will deactivate enzymes, ie, 150F will
                                  > quickly deactivate alpha and beta amylases, etc.). the question that
                                  > i am asking, specifically, is if anyone has tried a no-cook recipe
                                  > using any form of grain. if so, what was the conversion? how long
                                  > did it take? what abv did you achieve? what was your recipe? would
                                  > you ever do it again? did you use sugar, and what type of yeast did
                                  > you use?
                                  >
                                  > if i have to cook, i sure will. but my eventual interest is to get
                                  > into home fuel production. if i can leave 100 lbs of grain in a
                                  > 55 gal bucket with a few cans of tomato paste, some beano, and a
                                  > dozen packets of bread yeast for two weeks and distill it for a few
                                  > gallons of 95% ethanol you can be dang sure i'd prefer that to
                                  spending
                                  > 4-12 hours cooking the grain.
                                  >
                                  > i do brew beer, and i'v never heard of somone doing a no-cook beer
                                  > recipe (even syrup brewers have to do *some* work =) and imagine the
                                  > taste would be nasty, but if you don't care about the taste quite so
                                  > much (ie, you can distill it out) and it works with less energy and
                                  time,
                                  > why not? (and uncooked grains are still cheaper anyways)
                                  >
                                  > (i apologize for the length, but i want to make sure i'm absolutely
                                  > clear about everything ... thank you for your patience =)
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Saul
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
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                                • hexenwolfe
                                  In your research, look for information on sour mash process. Sour mash process is a no cook method. The enzymes in the malt cannot access the starch easily
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Dec 3, 2004
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                                    In your research, look for information on sour mash process.
                                    Sour mash process is a no cook method. The enzymes in the malt
                                    cannot access the starch easily unless it is gelatanized by heat and
                                    hydration, but the incomplete access of the enzymes to the complex
                                    starches is overcome by fermenting the same mash several times.
                                    Historically this process was used to save time and effort, and so
                                    that fermenting could be done in wooden barrels. Prohibition era
                                    moonshiners added sugar to increase yield and reduce time, and
                                    because sugar was cheap. Sour mash yields lower ABV in the mash at
                                    time of fermentation (about 8-10%) This is one of the reasons
                                    stripping runs were done before a fining or concentrating second
                                    distillation. In an effort to get larger volumes of alcohol, larger
                                    mashes were made. This gave larger volumes of mash beer to be
                                    distilled so stripping runs were used to remove and concentrate the
                                    mash beer. The sour mash beer was "slopped back" and recycled in
                                    subsequent fermentations. Some authors I have read said this process
                                    was done up to 7 times.
                                    I have tried sour mash process twice. I am an impatient type, and
                                    do not like either the lower yield of alcohol in the mash, or the
                                    extra work of stripping and redistilling large quantities of mash
                                    beer. The process does work however and for fuel would be a useful
                                    process.

                                    Cheers



                                    --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Saul Sabia <saul_sabia@y...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > So i went looking through the archives and found a little bit here
                                    and there on no-cook
                                    > mashing, and of course i assimilated all the information on
                                    homedistillers web site, and
                                    > it seems rather straight-forward. what i was wondering is if anyone
                                    here either has done
                                    > or is doing no-cook mashing. if so, what recipe/procedure and how
                                    were the results?
                                    > i'm looking to make whiskey, and i don't have the hours to do a
                                    full all-grain mash!
                                    >
                                    > thanks in advance, you've all been very helpful and informative!
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Saul
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > __________________________________
                                    > Do you Yahoo!?
                                    > Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
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                                  • Rana Pipiens
                                    Hi Wal. I have the 2nd edition of Ian s book. Hexenwolfe s post covers what the book says and a little more background. Rana waljaco
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Dec 3, 2004
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                                      Hi Wal. I have the 2nd edition of Ian's book. Hexenwolfe's post covers what the book says and a little more background. Rana

                                      waljaco <waljaco@...> wrote:
                                      I have the first edition of Ian Smiley's Pure Corn whiskey. This is
                                      what it says about Cereal Grains -
                                      "To mash cereal grains that are not flaked, they need to be boiled in
                                      order to disperse their starches in the mash water."
                                      What does your edition say?

                                      This is what it says about Gluco-amylase (aka amyloglucosidase,
                                      alpha=glucosidase) -
                                      "Gluco-amylase is a laboratory-prepared enzyme that is used in
                                      mashing to reduce, if not eliminate, the proportion of fermentable
                                      sugars in the mash. Mashing using malt enzymes produces a small
                                      proportion of unfermentable sugars (dextrins and polysaccharides). In
                                      brewing, these unfermentable sugars are essential to the body and
                                      malt character of the beer, but in distilling they only represent
                                      lost alcohol yield."
                                      wal
                                      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Rana Pipiens <ranawater@y...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Wal, check page 149 of Ian's book. He gives a recipe for a no-cook
                                      sour mash that uses grain meal (corn, rye or millet) and uses the
                                      same batch of grain for three batches. I haven't tried it yet but it
                                      is always my next experiment. Rana
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ---------------------------------
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                                      > Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
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                                    • bradr36
                                      ... and ... process ... and ... good post there buddy, these pratices were also used to keep the consistincy in thier product BR
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Dec 3, 2004
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "hexenwolfe" <hexenwolfe@y...>
                                        wrote:
                                        >
                                        > In your research, look for information on sour mash process.
                                        > Sour mash process is a no cook method. The enzymes in the malt
                                        > cannot access the starch easily unless it is gelatanized by heat
                                        and
                                        > hydration, but the incomplete access of the enzymes to the complex
                                        > starches is overcome by fermenting the same mash several times.
                                        > Historically this process was used to save time and effort, and so
                                        > that fermenting could be done in wooden barrels. Prohibition era
                                        > moonshiners added sugar to increase yield and reduce time, and
                                        > because sugar was cheap. Sour mash yields lower ABV in the mash at
                                        > time of fermentation (about 8-10%) This is one of the reasons
                                        > stripping runs were done before a fining or concentrating second
                                        > distillation. In an effort to get larger volumes of alcohol, larger
                                        > mashes were made. This gave larger volumes of mash beer to be
                                        > distilled so stripping runs were used to remove and concentrate the
                                        > mash beer. The sour mash beer was "slopped back" and recycled in
                                        > subsequent fermentations. Some authors I have read said this
                                        process
                                        > was done up to 7 times.
                                        > I have tried sour mash process twice. I am an impatient type,
                                        and
                                        > do not like either the lower yield of alcohol in the mash, or the
                                        > extra work of stripping and redistilling large quantities of mash
                                        > beer. The process does work however and for fuel would be a useful
                                        > process.
                                        >
                                        > Cheers
                                        >
                                        >
                                        good post there buddy, these pratices were also used to keep the
                                        consistincy in thier product

                                        BR
                                      • Harry
                                        ... and ... Sour Mash is hardly a `no-cook method. It s a yeasting method employed to guarantee consistency of flavour from batch to batch, while at
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Dec 3, 2004
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "hexenwolfe" <hexenwolfe@y...>
                                          wrote:
                                          >
                                          > In your research, look for information on sour mash process.
                                          > Sour mash process is a no cook method. The enzymes in the malt
                                          > cannot access the starch easily unless it is gelatanized by heat
                                          and
                                          > hydration, but the incomplete access of the enzymes to the complex
                                          > starches is overcome by fermenting the same mash several times.
                                          <snip>


                                          Sour Mash is hardly a `no-cook' method. It's a yeasting method
                                          employed to guarantee consistency of flavour from batch to batch,
                                          while at the same time suppressing undesirable bacterial growth.
                                          The grains used to propagate the yeast and the grains used in
                                          mashing are still cooked. Read some of the industry leader's
                                          comments…

                                          <quote>
                                          Heaven Hill Distilleries definition…
                                          Heaven Hill Distilleries use the expensive sour mash yeasting
                                          process where to each new mash a certain amount of old mash ready
                                          for distillation is added this "souring" assures a continuation of
                                          the yeast culture and of certain enzymes from batch to batch.
                                          Contrary to what the name implies, Sour Mash Whiskey is sweeter and
                                          smoother than using a "Sweet" or "Water" mash process.

                                          Charles K. Cowdery wrote in The Malt Advocate…
                                          Sour mash is another misunderstood term. Dr. James C. Crow, a
                                          Scottish physician and chemist, is credited with introducing the
                                          sour mash process to Kentucky distillers. Sour mash uses spent beer
                                          (fermented mash that has already been separated from its alcohol
                                          through distillation) to condition each new fermentation. At some
                                          distilleries, as much as 25% of the volume in the fermentation tubs
                                          is spent beer. The sour mash process gained favor because it
                                          promoted consistency from batch to batch. The alternative is sweet
                                          mash, which simply means using a fresh yeast mixture for each new
                                          batch, and no spent beer. With modern technology, there isn't much
                                          difference in outcome between these two methods, but "sour mash" has
                                          developed a mystique. Even though virtually every U.S. whiskey
                                          distiller today uses it, many still include the words "sour mash" on
                                          their label as if it's a point of difference.
                                          </quote>

                                          The above two definitions are similar in that they address the
                                          consistency requirement from batch to batch, yet they are different
                                          in that one says it uses "old mash ready for distillation" while the
                                          other says it uses "spent beer fermented mash that has already been
                                          separated from its alcohol through distillation". Considering what
                                          further experts and informed sources say, I think Heaven Hill is
                                          just being `vague' about it's processes, which is common in whiskey
                                          making.

                                          <quote>
                                          The Wikipedia says…
                                          A refinement introduced by Scottish chemist Dr. James C. Crow was
                                          the sour mash process, by which each new fermentation is conditioned
                                          with some amount of spent beer (previously fermented mash that has
                                          been separated from its alcohol), in much the same way that
                                          sourdough bread is made from starter. The acid introduced by using
                                          the sour mash controls the growth of bacteria that could taint the
                                          whiskey. As of 2004, all straight bourbons use a sour mash process.
                                          </quote>

                                          <quote>
                                          Ron Ralph, of Ron Ralph & Associates Inc., Louisville, Kentucky,
                                          USA, in "The Alcohol Textbook" says…

                                          Mashing
                                          Mashing techniques vary considerably, but the major difference is
                                          whether pressure or atmospheric batch cooking is used. Bourbon, rye,
                                          wheat, Tennessee and corn whisky are mashed using batch cookers.
                                          Only the blend or light whisky producers use continuous cookers. to
                                          minimize contamination. All distillers use backset (centrifuged or
                                          screened stillage from the base of the still), but the quantity of
                                          backset will vary based upon the beer gallonage (gallons of water
                                          per 56 lb distillers bushel of grain) to be used. American whiskies
                                          have beer gallonages in the 30-40 gallon range.


                                          Yeasting:
                                          All whisky producers use Saccharomyces cerevisiae, however the
                                          yeasting techniques vary tremendously between the modern and
                                          traditional distillers. The modern distillers have elaborate yeast
                                          laboratories and will propagate a new yeast from an agar slant every
                                          week. The traditional distillers use yeast stored in jugs; and
                                          though they backstock weekly, the potential for gradual yeast
                                          culture changes and contamination can lead to flavor variances. The
                                          most common grains used for yeasting are small grains, rye and
                                          malted barley. These grains are cooked in a separate cooker to about
                                          63oC, and the pH is adjusted to 3.8 with lactic acid bacteria grown
                                          in the yeast mash. Lactic acid production is then stopped by
                                          increasing the temperature to 100oC for 30 minutes to kill the
                                          bacteria. This aseptic, sterile mash is then ready for the yeast
                                          from the dona tub grown in the laboratory.

                                          The lactic souring and the alcohol content of the finished yeast
                                          mash (8%), along with sterile dona and yeast tank methods contribute
                                          to the excellent reputation American whiskies have for fermentation
                                          congener consistency. The advantage of using small grains are:
                                          preservation of enzymes for secondary conversion, low steam
                                          requirements and shorter processing time.
                                          </quote>



                                          I hope this clears up any misconceptions on Sour Mashing and No-Cook.

                                          Slainte!
                                          Regards Harry
                                        • hexenwolfe
                                          Harry, I don t disagree with anything you have said, so far as it regards commercial whiskey making, But I will respectfully disagree when it comes to the
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Dec 3, 2004
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Harry,
                                            I don't disagree with anything you have said, so far as it regards
                                            commercial whiskey making, But I will respectfully disagree when it
                                            comes to the discussion of kentucky or Tennessee moonshine. The term
                                            "sour mash" means something different in the mountains. The use of
                                            "backings" or "slopping back" is certainly used in modern distillery
                                            practice for the purposes of flavor, and pH control. In hills of
                                            Kentucky and Tennessee it is/was used for the purpose of maintaining a
                                            strain of yeast (when slopped back BEFORE distilling), but it was also
                                            used to capture the remaining fermentables when cold fermenting grain
                                            mashes (when slopped back AFTER distillation). The grinding of grain
                                            makes the starches physically accessible to yeast, but many of those
                                            starches are structurally branched molecules. Cooking in an aqueous
                                            environment hydrolyzes many of these branched chain starches, a step
                                            called "gelatinizing". Without this hydrolysis or gelatinizing step,
                                            yeast has difficulty digesting these branched molecules so it
                                            "nibbles" the sugars off one sugar molecule at a time from the free
                                            ends of the starch molecules. This is a slow process. Gelatinizing
                                            makes the starches available to the enzymes in the malt immediately
                                            available and speeds up the process by an order of magnitude. A MUCH
                                            more efficient process.
                                            The recycling of distilled mash beer would have no ability to
                                            re-culture a new mash. The distilled mash beer has been pasteurized by
                                            the heat of distilling. The recycling of the post-distillation mash
                                            beer MUST therefore have some other purpose, i.e. simple flavoring, pH
                                            balancing, or the recapturing of incompletely digested starches. Sour
                                            mash process fermenting also requires a strain of yeast that will
                                            thrive at the low pH generated by recycling post-distilled mash beer.
                                            These varities of yeast are in the same family of yeasts
                                            (Saccharomyces), but they are of a low pH tolerant strain. These
                                            strains are much like the strains which produce sourdough bread in
                                            that they produce lactic acid as a side product (hence the sour taste)
                                            along with the alcohol and carbon dioxide produced by "fresh/sweet"
                                            strains .
                                            Dr. Crow may be credited with introducing the "sour mash" process
                                            to commercial distilling, but moonshiners in the USA (who were mostly
                                            Scotch Irish in heritage) were using the process as early as the
                                            middle 18th century in the USA in areas of New York, Pennsylvania, and
                                            a little later in Kentucky and Tennessee. Many,(not all) moonshiners
                                            used a cold process fermentation because of the ease of use,(It freed
                                            up the still and allowed for multiple fermentations to progress at the
                                            same time) the need of less fuel, and ability to ferment in wooden
                                            barrels or tubs. The copper still was the most expensive part of a
                                            primitive moonshiners equipment. It was more efficient to ferment in
                                            wooden (not fireproof) tubs than it was to cook the mash in the still,
                                            and then either transfer the mash to a wooden tub, or ferment in the
                                            still (this took the still out of production for 10 days or so). All
                                            of these processes were used by moonshiners prior to the introduction
                                            of sugar to the moonshiners trade in the early 20th century.





                                            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@y...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "hexenwolfe" <hexenwolfe@y...>
                                            > wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > In your research, look for information on sour mash process.
                                            > > Sour mash process is a no cook method. The enzymes in the malt
                                            > > cannot access the starch easily unless it is gelatanized by heat
                                            > and
                                            > > hydration, but the incomplete access of the enzymes to the complex
                                            > > starches is overcome by fermenting the same mash several times.
                                            > <snip>
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Sour Mash is hardly a `no-cook' method. It's a yeasting method
                                            > employed to guarantee consistency of flavour from batch to batch,
                                            > while at the same time suppressing undesirable bacterial growth.
                                            > The grains used to propagate the yeast and the grains used in
                                            > mashing are still cooked. Read some of the industry leader's
                                            > comments…
                                            >
                                            > <quote>
                                            > Heaven Hill Distilleries definition…
                                            > Heaven Hill Distilleries use the expensive sour mash yeasting
                                            > process where to each new mash a certain amount of old mash ready
                                            > for distillation is added this "souring" assures a continuation of
                                            > the yeast culture and of certain enzymes from batch to batch.
                                            > Contrary to what the name implies, Sour Mash Whiskey is sweeter and
                                            > smoother than using a "Sweet" or "Water" mash process.
                                            >
                                            > Charles K. Cowdery wrote in The Malt Advocate…
                                            > Sour mash is another misunderstood term. Dr. James C. Crow, a
                                            > Scottish physician and chemist, is credited with introducing the
                                            > sour mash process to Kentucky distillers. Sour mash uses spent beer
                                            > (fermented mash that has already been separated from its alcohol
                                            > through distillation) to condition each new fermentation. At some
                                            > distilleries, as much as 25% of the volume in the fermentation tubs
                                            > is spent beer. The sour mash process gained favor because it
                                            > promoted consistency from batch to batch. The alternative is sweet
                                            > mash, which simply means using a fresh yeast mixture for each new
                                            > batch, and no spent beer. With modern technology, there isn't much
                                            > difference in outcome between these two methods, but "sour mash" has
                                            > developed a mystique. Even though virtually every U.S. whiskey
                                            > distiller today uses it, many still include the words "sour mash" on
                                            > their label as if it's a point of difference.
                                            > </quote>
                                            >
                                            > The above two definitions are similar in that they address the
                                            > consistency requirement from batch to batch, yet they are different
                                            > in that one says it uses "old mash ready for distillation" while the
                                            > other says it uses "spent beer fermented mash that has already been
                                            > separated from its alcohol through distillation". Considering what
                                            > further experts and informed sources say, I think Heaven Hill is
                                            > just being `vague' about it's processes, which is common in whiskey
                                            > making.
                                            >
                                            > <quote>
                                            > The Wikipedia says…
                                            > A refinement introduced by Scottish chemist Dr. James C. Crow was
                                            > the sour mash process, by which each new fermentation is conditioned
                                            > with some amount of spent beer (previously fermented mash that has
                                            > been separated from its alcohol), in much the same way that
                                            > sourdough bread is made from starter. The acid introduced by using
                                            > the sour mash controls the growth of bacteria that could taint the
                                            > whiskey. As of 2004, all straight bourbons use a sour mash process.
                                            > </quote>
                                            >
                                            > <quote>
                                            > Ron Ralph, of Ron Ralph & Associates Inc., Louisville, Kentucky,
                                            > USA, in "The Alcohol Textbook" says…
                                            >
                                            > Mashing
                                            > Mashing techniques vary considerably, but the major difference is
                                            > whether pressure or atmospheric batch cooking is used. Bourbon, rye,
                                            > wheat, Tennessee and corn whisky are mashed using batch cookers.
                                            > Only the blend or light whisky producers use continuous cookers. to
                                            > minimize contamination. All distillers use backset (centrifuged or
                                            > screened stillage from the base of the still), but the quantity of
                                            > backset will vary based upon the beer gallonage (gallons of water
                                            > per 56 lb distillers bushel of grain) to be used. American whiskies
                                            > have beer gallonages in the 30-40 gallon range.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Yeasting:
                                            > All whisky producers use Saccharomyces cerevisiae, however the
                                            > yeasting techniques vary tremendously between the modern and
                                            > traditional distillers. The modern distillers have elaborate yeast
                                            > laboratories and will propagate a new yeast from an agar slant every
                                            > week. The traditional distillers use yeast stored in jugs; and
                                            > though they backstock weekly, the potential for gradual yeast
                                            > culture changes and contamination can lead to flavor variances. The
                                            > most common grains used for yeasting are small grains, rye and
                                            > malted barley. These grains are cooked in a separate cooker to about
                                            > 63oC, and the pH is adjusted to 3.8 with lactic acid bacteria grown
                                            > in the yeast mash. Lactic acid production is then stopped by
                                            > increasing the temperature to 100oC for 30 minutes to kill the
                                            > bacteria. This aseptic, sterile mash is then ready for the yeast
                                            > from the dona tub grown in the laboratory.
                                            >
                                            > The lactic souring and the alcohol content of the finished yeast
                                            > mash (8%), along with sterile dona and yeast tank methods contribute
                                            > to the excellent reputation American whiskies have for fermentation
                                            > congener consistency. The advantage of using small grains are:
                                            > preservation of enzymes for secondary conversion, low steam
                                            > requirements and shorter processing time.
                                            > </quote>
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > I hope this clears up any misconceptions on Sour Mashing and No-Cook.
                                            >
                                            > Slainte!
                                            > Regards Harry
                                          • waljaco
                                            Typing correction - see UNfermentable sugars It is difficult to get full conversion using only malted grain - Commercially glucoamylse is added, which is
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Dec 4, 2004
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Typing correction - see "UNfermentable sugars"
                                              It is difficult to get full conversion using only malted grain -
                                              Commercially glucoamylse is added, which is difficult for
                                              homedistillers to obtain. You could use a combination of malted grain
                                              and enzyme producing mould(s) which is the method for making a hot
                                              Korean sauce from rice flour
                                              wal
                                              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@h...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > I have the first edition of Ian Smiley's Pure Corn whiskey. This is
                                              > what it says about Cereal Grains -
                                              > "To mash cereal grains that are not flaked, they need to be boiled
                                              in
                                              > order to disperse their starches in the mash water."
                                              > What does your edition say?
                                              >
                                              > This is what it says about Gluco-amylase (aka amyloglucosidase,
                                              > alpha=glucosidase) -
                                              > "Gluco-amylase is a laboratory-prepared enzyme that is used in
                                              > mashing to reduce, if not eliminate, the proportion of
                                              UNfermentable
                                              > sugars in the mash. Mashing using malt enzymes produces a small
                                              > proportion of unfermentable sugars (dextrins and polysaccharides).
                                              In
                                              > brewing, these unfermentable sugars are essential to the body and
                                              > malt character of the beer, but in distilling they only represent
                                              > lost alcohol yield."
                                              > wal
                                              > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Rana Pipiens <ranawater@y...>
                                              > wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > Wal, check page 149 of Ian's book. He gives a recipe for a no-
                                              cook
                                              > sour mash that uses grain meal (corn, rye or millet) and uses the
                                              > same batch of grain for three batches. I haven't tried it yet but
                                              it
                                              > is always my next experiment. Rana
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > ---------------------------------
                                              > > Do you Yahoo!?
                                              > > Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
                                              > >
                                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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