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cursed 1.5" pipe

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  • king pin
    Hey Gang, Here s the stats, 1.5 copper pipe, 1/4 for serpintine coil. Damn tight fit! Any ideas as to coiling it without kinks? Have tried heat and bending
    Message 1 of 12 , Oct 30, 2004
      Hey Gang,

      Here's the stats, 1.5" copper pipe, 1/4" for serpintine coil. Damn tight fit! Any ideas as to coiling it without kinks? Have tried heat and bending with springs but its still real tight. Txs in advance :))


      ---------------------------------
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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Lindsay Williams
      I think you might be pushing physics here. Even with 3/16 tubing it is recommended not to try coiling it on a former less than 1.5 OD. If your coil is a std
      Message 2 of 12 , Oct 31, 2004
        I think you might be pushing physics here. Even with 3/16" tubing it
        is recommended not to try coiling it on a former less than 1.5" OD. If
        your coil is a std reflux coil at the top of your column I would
        seriously consider mounting a 2" shroud on top to house the coil. I
        would also use 3/16" tubing. This way you are guaranteed a good and
        easy result. Otherwise, try 3/16" in the 1.5". Good luck.

        Cheers,
        Lindsay.

        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, king pin <kingpin_kingpin2001@y...>
        wrote:
        > Hey Gang,
        >
        > Here's the stats, 1.5" copper pipe, 1/4" for serpintine coil. Damn
        tight fit! Any ideas as to coiling it without kinks? Have tried heat
        and bending with springs but its still real tight. Txs in advance :))
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        > Do you Yahoo!?
        > Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Ken Harding
        I have 4ft column is 1/4 for coil OK ?.............Ken ... From: Lindsay Williams To: Sent: Sunday, October
        Message 3 of 12 , Oct 31, 2004
          I have 4ft column is 1/4 for coil OK ?.............Ken
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Lindsay Williams" <linw@...>
          To: <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 4:47 PM
          Subject: [Distillers] Re: cursed 1.5" pipe


          >
          >
          > I think you might be pushing physics here. Even with 3/16" tubing it
          > is recommended not to try coiling it on a former less than 1.5" OD. If
          > your coil is a std reflux coil at the top of your column I would
          > seriously consider mounting a 2" shroud on top to house the coil. I
          > would also use 3/16" tubing. This way you are guaranteed a good and
          > easy result. Otherwise, try 3/16" in the 1.5". Good luck.
          >
          > Cheers,
          > Lindsay.
          >
          > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, king pin <kingpin_kingpin2001@y...>
          > wrote:
          >> Hey Gang,
          >>
          >> Here's the stats, 1.5" copper pipe, 1/4" for serpintine coil. Damn
          > tight fit! Any ideas as to coiling it without kinks? Have tried heat
          > and bending with springs but its still real tight. Txs in advance :))
          >>
          >>
          >> ---------------------------------
          >> Do you Yahoo!?
          >> Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
          >>
          >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Distillers list archives : http://archive.nnytech.net/
          > FAQ and other information at http://homedistiller.org
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Lindsay Williams
          The column length is not relevant. Your condenser has to be able to condense all the vapour fired at it and the amount of this vapour is related to the amount
          Message 4 of 12 , Oct 31, 2004
            The column length is not relevant. Your condenser has to be able to
            condense all the vapour fired at it and the amount of this vapour is
            related to the amount of power applied to your boiler. For good
            separation you need a moderate power. My system uses 824 watts for the
            run. My coil is 14' of 3/16" tubing wound on a 1.5" former. This
            neatly fits into a 2" column. This coil easily copes with the 824W
            power with only a small water flow (approx 350ml/min). Only the lower
            5 or so coils do all the work.

            Hope this is helpful.

            Cheers,
            Lindsay.

            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Ken Harding" <merlingraphics@b...>
            wrote:
            > I have 4ft column is 1/4 for coil OK ?.............Ken
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "Lindsay Williams" <linw@x...>
            > To: <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 4:47 PM
            > Subject: [Distillers] Re: cursed 1.5" pipe
            >
            >
            > >
            > >
            > > I think you might be pushing physics here. Even with 3/16" tubing it
            > > is recommended not to try coiling it on a former less than 1.5" OD. If
            > > your coil is a std reflux coil at the top of your column I would
            > > seriously consider mounting a 2" shroud on top to house the coil. I
            > > would also use 3/16" tubing. This way you are guaranteed a good and
            > > easy result. Otherwise, try 3/16" in the 1.5". Good luck.
            > >
            > > Cheers,
            > > Lindsay.
            > >
            > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, king pin <kingpin_kingpin2001@y...>
            > > wrote:
            > >> Hey Gang,
            > >>
            > >> Here's the stats, 1.5" copper pipe, 1/4" for serpintine coil. Damn
            > > tight fit! Any ideas as to coiling it without kinks? Have tried heat
            > > and bending with springs but its still real tight. Txs in advance :))
            > >>
            > >>
            > >> ---------------------------------
            > >> Do you Yahoo!?
            > >> Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
            > >>
            > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Distillers list archives : http://archive.nnytech.net/
            > > FAQ and other information at http://homedistiller.org
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
          • Ken Harding
            Hi Lindsay, I have a 50ltr and a 80ltr boilers, was going to fit two 1380watt elements to each, both on for initial heat up, then switch to 1 x 1380 or maybe
            Message 5 of 12 , Oct 31, 2004
              Hi Lindsay, I have a 50ltr and a 80ltr boilers, was going to fit two
              1380watt elements to each, both on for initial heat up, then switch to 1 x
              1380 or maybe 1500w, from what you said it sounds like there is a formula to
              work it out ?
              Have 4mrs of soft 1/4 ready to coil,.......... inside coil with an outer
              coil wound around it, as recommended.
              Any Ideas or could you point me in the direction of the formula ?
              Regards.........................Ken
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Lindsay Williams" <linw@...>
              To: <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 5:53 PM
              Subject: [Distillers] Re: cursed 1.5" pipe


              >
              >
              > The column length is not relevant. Your condenser has to be able to
              > condense all the vapour fired at it and the amount of this vapour is
              > related to the amount of power applied to your boiler. For good
              > separation you need a moderate power. My system uses 824 watts for the
              > run. My coil is 14' of 3/16" tubing wound on a 1.5" former. This
              > neatly fits into a 2" column. This coil easily copes with the 824W
              > power with only a small water flow (approx 350ml/min). Only the lower
              > 5 or so coils do all the work.
              >
              > Hope this is helpful.
              >
              > Cheers,
              > Lindsay.
              >
              > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Ken Harding" <merlingraphics@b...>
              > wrote:
              >> I have 4ft column is 1/4 for coil OK ?.............Ken
              >> ----- Original Message -----
              >> From: "Lindsay Williams" <linw@x...>
              >> To: <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>
              >> Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 4:47 PM
              >> Subject: [Distillers] Re: cursed 1.5" pipe
              >>
              >>
              >> >
              >> >
              >> > I think you might be pushing physics here. Even with 3/16" tubing it
              >> > is recommended not to try coiling it on a former less than 1.5" OD. If
              >> > your coil is a std reflux coil at the top of your column I would
              >> > seriously consider mounting a 2" shroud on top to house the coil. I
              >> > would also use 3/16" tubing. This way you are guaranteed a good and
              >> > easy result. Otherwise, try 3/16" in the 1.5". Good luck.
              >> >
              >> > Cheers,
              >> > Lindsay.
              >> >
              >> > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, king pin <kingpin_kingpin2001@y...>
              >> > wrote:
              >> >> Hey Gang,
              >> >>
              >> >> Here's the stats, 1.5" copper pipe, 1/4" for serpintine coil. Damn
              >> > tight fit! Any ideas as to coiling it without kinks? Have tried heat
              >> > and bending with springs but its still real tight. Txs in advance :))
              >> >>
              >> >>
              >> >> ---------------------------------
              >> >> Do you Yahoo!?
              >> >> Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
              >> >>
              >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >> > Distillers list archives : http://archive.nnytech.net/
              >> > FAQ and other information at http://homedistiller.org
              >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Distillers list archives : http://archive.nnytech.net/
              > FAQ and other information at http://homedistiller.org
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • rodmacd2000
              I mainly agree with you Lindsay. Without some very special equipment it is almost impossible to wind 1/4 copper tubing into a coil fitting into a 1 1/2
              Message 6 of 12 , Oct 31, 2004
                I mainly agree with you Lindsay. Without some very special equipment
                it is almost impossible to wind 1/4" copper tubing into a coil
                fitting into a 1 1/2" column.

                It *is* possible, however, to wind 3/16" copper tubing into such a
                coil (not saying it will be easy). If plumbing supply stores don't
                have 3/16" tubing it should be available at auto parts supply places.

                One trick: You can solder short lengths of 1/4" tubing to the ends of
                your 3/16" coil. This will make it easy to attach standard easily
                available compression fittings.

                My opinion FWIW

                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Lindsay Williams" <linw@x> wrote:
                >
                > The column length is not relevant. Your condenser has to be able to
                > condense all the vapour fired at it and the amount of this vapour is
                > related to the amount of power applied to your boiler. For good
                > separation you need a moderate power. My system uses 824 watts for
                the
                > run. My coil is 14' of 3/16" tubing wound on a 1.5" former. This
                > neatly fits into a 2" column. This coil easily copes with the 824W
                > power with only a small water flow (approx 350ml/min). Only the
                lower
                > 5 or so coils do all the work.
                >
                > Hope this is helpful.
                >
                > Cheers,
                > Lindsay.
                >
                > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Ken Harding"
                <merlingraphics@b...>
                > wrote:
                > > I have 4ft column is 1/4 for coil OK ?.............Ken
                > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > From: "Lindsay Williams" <linw@x>
                > > To: <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                > > Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 4:47 PM
                > > Subject: [Distillers] Re: cursed 1.5" pipe
                > >
                > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > I think you might be pushing physics here. Even with 3/16"
                tubing it
                > > > is recommended not to try coiling it on a former less than 1.5"
                OD. If
                > > > your coil is a std reflux coil at the top of your column I would
                > > > seriously consider mounting a 2" shroud on top to house the
                coil. I
                > > > would also use 3/16" tubing. This way you are guaranteed a good
                and
                > > > easy result. Otherwise, try 3/16" in the 1.5". Good luck.
                > > >
                > > > Cheers,
                > > > Lindsay.
                > > >
                > > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, king pin
                <kingpin_kingpin2001@y...>
                > > > wrote:
                > > >> Hey Gang,
                > > >>
                > > >> Here's the stats, 1.5" copper pipe, 1/4" for serpintine coil.
                Damn
                > > > tight fit! Any ideas as to coiling it without kinks? Have
                tried heat
                > > > and bending with springs but its still real tight. Txs in
                advance :))
                > > >>
                > > >>
                > > >> ---------------------------------
                > > >> Do you Yahoo!?
                > > >> Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
                > > >>
                > > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Distillers list archives : http://archive.nnytech.net/
                > > > FAQ and other information at http://homedistiller.org
                > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
              • Lindsay Williams
                Mike Nixon has been providing this info at New Distillers just recently. Try this msge:- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/new_distillers/message/12431 I use a
                Message 7 of 12 , Oct 31, 2004
                  Mike Nixon has been providing this info at New Distillers just
                  recently. Try this msge:-
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/new_distillers/message/12431

                  I use a similar element setup as you are planning but one is 1700W and
                  the other is 1600W. In parallel I get 3300W for heat up and then I
                  switch them into series to give 824W. The formula for series power
                  is:- (Element1*Element2)/(element1+Element2). If both elements are
                  the same wattage, the power is a quarter of the parallel power.

                  If you are in USA and have both 120V and 240V you have more options.
                  e.g. running a 240V element on 120V gives you a quarter of the power.

                  For the run you are aiming for a roiling boil. Whatever gives that is
                  about right!

                  Have fun with the maths!!

                  Cheers,
                  Lindsay.

                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Ken Harding" <merlingraphics@b...>
                  wrote:
                  > Hi Lindsay, I have a 50ltr and a 80ltr boilers, was going to fit two
                  > 1380watt elements to each, both on for initial heat up, then switch
                  to 1 x
                  > 1380 or maybe 1500w, from what you said it sounds like there is a
                  formula to
                  > work it out ?
                  > Have 4mrs of soft 1/4 ready to coil,.......... inside coil with an
                  outer
                  > coil wound around it, as recommended.
                  > Any Ideas or could you point me in the direction of the formula ?
                  > Regards.........................Ken
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "Lindsay Williams" <linw@x...>
                  > To: <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 5:53 PM
                  > Subject: [Distillers] Re: cursed 1.5" pipe
                  >
                  >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > The column length is not relevant. Your condenser has to be able to
                  > > condense all the vapour fired at it and the amount of this vapour is
                  > > related to the amount of power applied to your boiler. For good
                  > > separation you need a moderate power. My system uses 824 watts for the
                  > > run. My coil is 14' of 3/16" tubing wound on a 1.5" former. This
                  > > neatly fits into a 2" column. This coil easily copes with the 824W
                  > > power with only a small water flow (approx 350ml/min). Only the lower
                  > > 5 or so coils do all the work.
                  > >
                  > > Hope this is helpful.
                  > >
                  > > Cheers,
                  > > Lindsay.
                  > >
                  > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Ken Harding" <merlingraphics@b...>
                  > > wrote:
                  > >> I have 4ft column is 1/4 for coil OK ?.............Ken
                  > >> ----- Original Message -----
                  > >> From: "Lindsay Williams" <linw@x>
                  > >> To: <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                  > >> Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 4:47 PM
                  > >> Subject: [Distillers] Re: cursed 1.5" pipe
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >> >
                  > >> >
                  > >> > I think you might be pushing physics here. Even with 3/16"
                  tubing it
                  > >> > is recommended not to try coiling it on a former less than 1.5"
                  OD. If
                  > >> > your coil is a std reflux coil at the top of your column I would
                  > >> > seriously consider mounting a 2" shroud on top to house the
                  coil. I
                  > >> > would also use 3/16" tubing. This way you are guaranteed a good and
                  > >> > easy result. Otherwise, try 3/16" in the 1.5". Good luck.
                  > >> >
                  > >> > Cheers,
                  > >> > Lindsay.
                  > >> >
                  > >> > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, king pin
                  <kingpin_kingpin2001@y...>
                  > >> > wrote:
                  > >> >> Hey Gang,
                  > >> >>
                  > >> >> Here's the stats, 1.5" copper pipe, 1/4" for serpintine coil.
                  Damn
                  > >> > tight fit! Any ideas as to coiling it without kinks? Have
                  tried heat
                  > >> > and bending with springs but its still real tight. Txs in
                  advance :))
                  > >> >>
                  > >> >>
                  > >> >> ---------------------------------
                  > >> >> Do you Yahoo!?
                  > >> >> Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
                  > >> >>
                  > >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >> >
                  > >> >
                  > >> >
                  > >> >
                  > >> >
                  > >> >
                  > >> > Distillers list archives : http://archive.nnytech.net/
                  > >> > FAQ and other information at http://homedistiller.org
                  > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >> >
                  > >> >
                  > >> >
                  > >> >
                  > >> >
                  > >> >
                  > >> >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Distillers list archives : http://archive.nnytech.net/
                  > > FAQ and other information at http://homedistiller.org
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                • BOKAKOB
                  I disagree about 1.5 pipe and 1/4 tube coil in it. It is possible to wind the coil itself. It would be difficult to bring the bottom end of this coil up. If
                  Message 8 of 12 , Oct 31, 2004
                    I disagree about 1.5" pipe and 1/4" tube coil in it. It is possible to wind the coil itself. It would be difficult to bring the bottom end of this coil up. If you look at my coil, the inner winding is made on a 3/4" pipe. Physical dimension is 7/8" diameter. The 1/4 tubing got slightly flattened. 7/8"+2*1/4"=1_3/8" actually it is slightly less than that because the tube flattened a little. What I think is very "doable" is to wind this coil and then use 1/2" tube as a "cold finger." In this case the lower end or the coil will go to the bottom of the cold finger. There is a two-fold benefit -- adding extra cooling surface, making the exit with tube, making the coil more rigid and making condensing cavity smaller for more efficient cooling.
                    Most important task in any coil winding is the first turn. To do just that make sure that there is tension in tubing while making the first turn.




                    Whatever I wrote above is my subjective opinion
                    There are no warranties of any kind
                    Act on your own risk and finally...
                    I can be wrong I must say
                    Cheers, Alex...






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                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • pthoma_nz
                    ... possible to wind the coil itself. It would be difficult to bring the bottom end of this coil up. If you look at my coil, the inner winding is made on a
                    Message 9 of 12 , Oct 31, 2004
                      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, BOKAKOB <bokakob@y...> wrote:
                      > I disagree about 1.5" pipe and 1/4" tube coil in it. It is
                      possible to wind the coil itself. It would be difficult to bring the
                      bottom end of this coil up. If you look at my coil, the inner
                      winding is made on a 3/4" pipe. Physical dimension is 7/8" diameter.
                      The 1/4 tubing got slightly flattened. 7/8"+2*1/4"=1_3/8" actually
                      it is slightly less than that because the tube flattened a little.
                      What I think is very "doable" is to wind this coil and then use 1/2"
                      tube as a "cold finger." In this case the lower end or the coil will
                      go to the bottom of the cold finger. There is a two-fold benefit --
                      adding extra cooling surface, making the exit with tube, making the
                      coil more rigid and making condensing cavity smaller for more
                      efficient cooling.
                      > Most important task in any coil winding is the first turn. To do
                      just that make sure that there is tension in tubing while making the
                      first turn.
                      >

                      If you can coil it, which I think would be quite difficult, the
                      other option would be to do what I did (having tons of probs getting
                      that tubing back the centre), I just bought a 1/4" elbow and
                      soldered it on the bottom and pointed it up the centre where I
                      attached a straight tube to the top... simple...
                    • king pin
                      I d like to thank everyone for their opinions on my little query. Esp. Alex, @ least I know it can actually be done. I d really appreciate specifics as how
                      Message 10 of 12 , Oct 31, 2004
                        I'd like to thank everyone for their opinions on my little query. Esp. Alex, @ least I know it can actually be done. I'd really appreciate specifics as how to do so though. The cold finger idea intrigues me, any specs on it Alex? I'd like to see a pic of your coil but as I've read earlier, you were unable to attach them. Also, whats a good thing to use to achieve that tension while bending the tube? Did you wind the coil around a pipe? By hand? Sigh, so many questions, I appreciate all the feedback and patience from the vets.

                        BOKAKOB <bokakob@...> wrote:
                        I disagree about 1.5" pipe and 1/4" tube coil in it. It is possible to wind the coil itself. It would be difficult to bring the bottom end of this coil up. If you look at my coil, the inner winding is made on a 3/4" pipe. Physical dimension is 7/8" diameter. The 1/4 tubing got slightly flattened. 7/8"+2*1/4"=1_3/8" actually it is slightly less than that because the tube flattened a little. What I think is very "doable" is to wind this coil and then use 1/2" tube as a "cold finger." In this case the lower end or the coil will go to the bottom of the cold finger. There is a two-fold benefit -- adding extra cooling surface, making the exit with tube, making the coil more rigid and making condensing cavity smaller for more efficient cooling.
                        Most important task in any coil winding is the first turn. To do just that make sure that there is tension in tubing while making the first turn.




                        Whatever I wrote above is my subjective opinion
                        There are no warranties of any kind
                        Act on your own risk and finally...
                        I can be wrong I must say
                        Cheers, Alex...






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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                        Distillers list archives : http://archive.nnytech.net/
                        FAQ and other information at http://homedistiller.org
                        Yahoo! Groups Links










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                      • Andrew Forsberg
                        ... Or... leave a good bit of slack, make the bend back to the top, and then continue to wind the bottom around your former until the slack is gone.
                        Message 11 of 12 , Oct 31, 2004
                          >If you can coil it, which I think would be quite difficult, the
                          >other option would be to do what I did (having tons of probs getting
                          >that tubing back the centre), I just bought a 1/4" elbow and
                          >soldered it on the bottom and pointed it up the centre where I
                          >attached a straight tube to the top... simple...
                          >
                          >
                          Or... leave a good bit of slack, make the bend back to the top, and then
                          continue to wind the bottom around your former until the slack is gone.
                        • BOKAKOB
                          I d like to thank everyone for their opinions on my little query. Esp. Alex, @ least I know it can actually be done. I d really appreciate specifics as how
                          Message 12 of 12 , Oct 31, 2004
                            I'd like to thank everyone for their opinions on my little query. Esp.
                            Alex, @ least I know it can actually be done. I'd really appreciate
                            specifics as how to do so though. The cold finger idea intrigues me, any specs on it Alex? I'd like to see a pic of your coil but as I've read
                            earlier, you were unable to attach them. Also, whats a good thing to
                            use to achieve that tension while bending the tube? Did you wind the
                            coil around a pipe? By hand? Sigh, so many questions, I appreciate all the feedback and patience from the vets.

                            ===================================================

                            you can see pictures of this coil in "new_distillers" group photo section under BOKAKOB--> Super Coil. The inner most coil is wound on 3/4" ipe with 1/2" cold finger. I did wind it by hand without any tools except one 3/4" pipe and some iron pipe I found in the garbage. I was winding it with my palms hugging the tube and constantly applying tension.

                            Answer to Andrew (thank you for pointing it out) I cramped a littel tubes for the cold finger to provide more resistance for water. I tested with hot water and all coils and the cold finger are hot.

                            To have more tension - use fine grit sand paper to grab the tube at the beginning. Use hand friction on the other side. Once you get your first turn, friction provides all the tension required.

                            Good luck, Alex (aka BOKAKOB)



                            Whatever I wrote above is my subjective opinion
                            There are no warranties of any kind
                            Act on your own risk and finally...
                            I can be wrong I must say
                            Cheers, Alex...






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