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Re: [Distillers] re-using yeast

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  • Gary Gluyas
    Ted Just because you don t like Turbo s doesn t mean others shouldn t - everyone is entitled to their opinion. We can all make up our minds as to what we like
    Message 1 of 20 , May 4, 2001
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      Ted

      Just because you don't like Turbo's doesn't mean others shouldn't -
      everyone is entitled to their opinion.

      We can all make up our minds as to what we like / prefer.

      One of the reasons many people like the turbo's is because they provide a
      quick ferment - if people need / want a quick ferment - then Turbo is the
      obvious answer.

      Each different yeast displays a different series of performance
      characteristics - way too numerous to mention here.

      I have tried most of the spirit yeasts available here in New Zealand, and
      have drawn my own conclusions as to what I believe is the best performing
      yeasts - but then you must quantify your specific requirements in a yeast,
      namely:

      RESULTING QUALITY OF DISTILLATE (TASTE & SMELL)
      SPEED OF FERMENT
      YIELD
      etc etc

      In my experience, one yeast will not be able to provide all the
      characteristics you require or demand - and as with most things in life -
      there is a trade off. If you require more of one specific characteristic,
      then it will perform less in another area.

      Further thoughts . . .

      Cheers

      Kiwi Gary

      ----------
      From: Ted Palmer <tpalmer@...>
      To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [Distillers] re-using yeast
      Date: Saturday, 5 May 2001 11:17

      Several more reasons not to use turbo.
      _____________
      Ted Palmer
      tpalmer@...

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Ola Norrman
      To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 3:22 PM
      Subject: Re: [Distillers] re-using yeast


      Turbo Yeast (a mixture of yeast and nutrients) - shall
      never be reused. There are 2 main reasons for this:

      1. Yeast condition.
      During the manufacture of dried yeast, very high
      levels of phospholipids are accumulated within the
      plasma membrane because the yeast is grown aerobically
      (with oxygen). The yeast population which exists at
      the end of fermentation has depleted levels making
      yeast cells more sensitive during subsequent
      fermentations and fermentation more likely to stick.

      So the yeast produce and accumulates lipids during its
      growth in the yeast factory. Then, during anaerobic
      fermentation (without oxygen) in the wash, each new
      generation of yeast contains less and less lipids.
      Lipids are needed for alcohol tolerance which make
      this important to 14% Turbos and far more important to
      18% Turbos. If to many generations have passed
      (because of reuse of yeast or to little yeast to start
      with) the yeast have low "lipid protection" and
      alcohol tolerance decrease.

      Dried yeast also contains typically 15% Trehalose
      which is a "protectant sugar". It gives the yeast cell
      internal strength and also is an excellent "start
      sugar" for the yeast to use at the start of
      fermentation. Cells at the end of fermentation will
      typically contain only 2 or 3% Trehalose. Trehalose
      protect against the shock when the yeast are mixed in
      the wash.

      2. Nutrient depletion
      Not relevant for beer, partly relevant for wine but
      totally relevant for Turbo. So for Turbo, because the
      sugar offers no nutritional value, re-using the yeast
      a second time will result in a stuck.

      Turbos also contains pH-buffer to give the yeast
      perfect pH conditions. Nutrients not only work as
      nutrients, they also keep the production of volatiles
      down to a minimum. Nutrients are consumed by the
      yeast. Re-use of a Good Turbo yeast will also result
      in a lot more volatiles in the wash. pH-buffer will
      not work in the second batch. There are other
      ingredients making the CO2 leave faster, giving the
      yeast cells something to claim to and move around in
      the fermentation, assist clearing after fermentation
      etc. Those functions will also be spoiled as they are
      a part of the nutrients.

      Nutrient composition are the manufacturers secrets.
      One can not simply add some DAP
      (diammoniumphosphate)or similar and expect it to work
      the same. The first Turbo in the world was made in
      Sweden. They are sold under the name Prestige and are
      extremely good. At
      http://www.turbo-yeast.com/intro.html
      there is a lot of info about quality Turbos including
      a "recipe" telling how "Bad Turbos" are made.

      There is also info about yeast strains at:
      http://www.lallemand.com/danstar-lalvin/lalvin.html
      It is a bit surprising that they not have some never
      information here, only old basics.

      One could talk about genetic drift and bacterial risks
      too, but it is not so important.

      Kindest regards
      Ola


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    • Ted Palmer
      if people need / want a quick ferment - then Turbo is the obvious answer. No its not. I have a yeast that can ferment to 17% with greater than 80% attenuation
      Message 2 of 20 , May 4, 2001
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        if people need / want a quick ferment - then Turbo is the
        obvious answer.

        No its not. I have a yeast that can ferment to 17% with greater than 80% attenuation in less than 4 days at 75 degrees F. It has a slight h2so4 nose to it but it clears bright in 2 days and then you can't smell the h2so4. Esters and phenols are slight to none. No breadiness, sour or vegemite aromas from the yeast that has been stored for 2 weeks and its viability is 94% after 34 generations. This yeast is a work horse!  www.whitelabs.com/yeast_descriptions.htm#WLP001- California Ale Yeast
        This isn't the only one out there that is fantastic either.
         
        Turbo lasts one maybe three generations if you know how to care for it. It wasn't designed for use in beverage applications. It has nutritional needs that need constant attention. This yeast is twice as cranky as your wife during a full moon! Why use it? Because you always have? that's the only thing that the shop sells? because you think 23% alc. is going to be better tasting? The only reason to use it is to get to the magic number 23, and that my friend is not a very good reason to me.
        Really! Why do you keep using it? I used it a half dozen times and the flavor of the wash was awful. I can't even condone its use for fuel alcohol because of its difficult nature.
        Would you own a car that needs to be repaired every other day or would you get one that is reliable for years of hard driving?
        Hmm?
        _____________
        Ted Palmer
        tpalmer@...
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 5:19 PM
        Subject: Re: [Distillers] re-using yeast

        Ted

        Just because you don't like Turbo's doesn't mean others shouldn't -
        everyone is entitled to their opinion. 

        We can all make up our minds as to what we like / prefer.

        One of the reasons many people like the turbo's is because they provide a
        quick ferment - if people need / want a quick ferment - then Turbo is the
        obvious answer.

        Each different yeast displays a different series of performance
        characteristics - way too numerous to mention here.

        I have tried most of the spirit yeasts available here in New Zealand, and
        have drawn my own conclusions as to what I believe is the best performing
        yeasts - but then you must quantify your specific requirements in a yeast,
        namely:

        RESULTING QUALITY OF DISTILLATE (TASTE & SMELL)
        SPEED OF FERMENT
        YIELD
        etc etc

        In my experience, one yeast will not be able to provide all the
        characteristics you require or demand - and as with most things in life -
        there is a trade off.  If you require more of one specific characteristic,
        then it will perform less in another area.

        Further thoughts . . .

        Cheers

        Kiwi Gary

        ----------
        From: Ted Palmer <tpalmer@...>
        To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [Distillers] re-using yeast
        Date: Saturday, 5 May 2001 11:17

        Several more reasons not to use turbo.
        _____________
        Ted Palmer
        tpalmer@...

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Ola Norrman
          To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 3:22 PM
          Subject: Re: [Distillers] re-using yeast


          Turbo Yeast (a mixture of yeast and nutrients) - shall
          never be reused. There are 2 main reasons for this:

          1.  Yeast condition.
          During the manufacture of dried yeast, very high
          levels of phospholipids are accumulated within the
          plasma membrane because the yeast is grown aerobically
          (with oxygen).  The yeast population which exists at
          the end of fermentation has depleted levels making
          yeast cells more sensitive during subsequent
          fermentations and fermentation more likely to stick.

          So the yeast produce and accumulates lipids during its
          growth in the yeast factory. Then, during anaerobic
          fermentation (without oxygen) in the wash, each new
          generation of yeast contains less and less lipids.
          Lipids are needed for alcohol tolerance which make
          this important to 14% Turbos and far more important to
          18% Turbos. If to many generations have passed
          (because of reuse of yeast or to little yeast to start
          with) the yeast have low "lipid protection" and
          alcohol tolerance decrease.

          Dried yeast also contains typically 15% Trehalose
          which is a "protectant sugar". It gives the yeast cell
          internal strength and also is an excellent "start
          sugar" for the yeast to use at the start of
          fermentation.  Cells at the end of fermentation will
          typically contain only 2 or 3% Trehalose. Trehalose
          protect against the shock when the yeast are mixed in
          the wash.

          2.  Nutrient depletion
          Not relevant for beer, partly relevant for wine but
          totally relevant for Turbo.  So for Turbo, because the
          sugar offers no nutritional value, re-using the yeast
          a second time will result in a stuck.

          Turbos also contains pH-buffer to give the yeast
          perfect pH conditions. Nutrients not only work as
          nutrients, they also keep the production of volatiles
          down to a minimum. Nutrients are consumed by the
          yeast. Re-use of a Good Turbo yeast will also result
          in a lot more volatiles in the wash. pH-buffer will
          not work in the second batch. There are other
          ingredients making the CO2 leave faster, giving the
          yeast cells something to claim to and move around in
          the fermentation, assist clearing after fermentation
          etc. Those functions will also be spoiled as they are
          a part of the nutrients.

            Nutrient composition are the manufacturers secrets.
          One can not simply add some DAP
          (diammoniumphosphate)or similar and expect it to work
          the same. The first Turbo in the world was made in
          Sweden. They are sold under the name Prestige and are
          extremely good. At
          http://www.turbo-yeast.com/intro.html
          there is a lot of info about quality Turbos including
          a "recipe" telling how "Bad Turbos" are made.

          There is also info about yeast strains at:
          http://www.lallemand.com/danstar-lalvin/lalvin.html
          It is a bit surprising that they not have some never
          information here, only old basics.

          One could talk about genetic drift and bacterial risks
          too, but it is not so important.

          Kindest regards
          Ola


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      • Gary Gluyas
        Ted, and others I do not always use a turbo yeast - I am trialling several others also, and have a large number of yeast available for sale and use. I may use
        Message 3 of 20 , May 4, 2001
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          Ted, and others

          I do not always use a turbo yeast - I am trialling several others also, and
          have a large number of yeast available for sale and use.

          I may use yeast for variety of reasons, which I have already touched on.
          Lately I have been using a yeast that is much slower fermenting than a
          turbo, but results in a superb wash and distillate flavour! Even then I
          wouldn't drink a glass full of it! No way!

          It appears Turbo's were simply not designed to be re-used at all, along
          with many of the other high alcohol yeasts designed for beverage
          consumption.

          As you seem to have fairly strong views on this subject, and basically
          whitewash everyone else's ideas, I was just wondering what qualifications
          and experience you may have in this field to back up your claims.

          Just for the record, I do not have any qualifications at all, and simply
          draw on my own personal experiences to date with relation to taste, yield,
          and speed of ferment etc etc.

          Cheers

          Kiwi Gary
          gluyas@...

          PS. Also for the record: my wife is cranky ALL of the time, not just
          during a full moon! THAT IS WHY I MARRIED HER! KG

          ----------
          From: Ted Palmer <tpalmer@...>
          To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com; Gary Gluyas <gluyas@...>
          Subject: Re: [Distillers] re-using yeast
          Date: Saturday, 5 May 2001 13:58

          if people need / want a quick ferment - then Turbo is the
          obvious answer.

          No its not. I have a yeast that can ferment to 17% with greater than 80%
          attenuation in less than 4 days at 75 degrees F. It has a slight h2so4 nose
          to it but it clears bright in 2 days and then you can't smell the h2so4.
          Esters and phenols are slight to none. No breadiness, sour or vegemite
          aromas from the yeast that has been stored for 2 weeks and its viability is
          94% after 34 generations. This yeast is a work horse!
          www.whitelabs.com/yeast_descriptions.htm#WLP001- California Ale Yeast
          This isn't the only one out there that is fantastic either.

          Turbo lasts one maybe three generations if you know how to care for it. It
          wasn't designed for use in beverage applications. It has nutritional needs
          that need constant attention. This yeast is twice as cranky as your wife
          during a full moon! Why use it? Because you always have? that's the only
          thing that the shop sells? because you think 23% alc. is going to be better
          tasting? The only reason to use it is to get to the magic number 23, and
          that my friend is not a very good reason to me.
          Really! Why do you keep using it? I used it a half dozen times and the
          flavor of the wash was awful. I can't even condone its use for fuel alcohol
          because of its difficult nature.
          Would you own a car that needs to be repaired every other day or would you
          get one that is reliable for years of hard driving?
          Hmm?
          _____________
          Ted Palmer
          tpalmer@...

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Gary Gluyas
          To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com ; Ted Palmer
          Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 5:19 PM
          Subject: Re: [Distillers] re-using yeast


          Ted

          Just because you don't like Turbo's doesn't mean others shouldn't -
          everyone is entitled to their opinion.

          We can all make up our minds as to what we like / prefer.

          One of the reasons many people like the turbo's is because they provide a
          quick ferment - if people need / want a quick ferment - then Turbo is the
          obvious answer.

          Each different yeast displays a different series of performance
          characteristics - way too numerous to mention here.

          I have tried most of the spirit yeasts available here in New Zealand, and
          have drawn my own conclusions as to what I believe is the best performing
          yeasts - but then you must quantify your specific requirements in a
          yeast,
          namely:

          RESULTING QUALITY OF DISTILLATE (TASTE & SMELL)
          SPEED OF FERMENT
          YIELD
          etc etc

          In my experience, one yeast will not be able to provide all the
          characteristics you require or demand - and as with most things in life -
          there is a trade off. If you require more of one specific
          characteristic,
          then it will perform less in another area.

          Further thoughts . . .

          Cheers

          Kiwi Gary

          ----------
          From: Ted Palmer <tpalmer@...>
          To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [Distillers] re-using yeast
          Date: Saturday, 5 May 2001 11:17

          Several more reasons not to use turbo.
          _____________
          Ted Palmer
          tpalmer@...

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Ola Norrman
          To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 3:22 PM
          Subject: Re: [Distillers] re-using yeast


          Turbo Yeast (a mixture of yeast and nutrients) - shall
          never be reused. There are 2 main reasons for this:

          1. Yeast condition.
          During the manufacture of dried yeast, very high
          levels of phospholipids are accumulated within the
          plasma membrane because the yeast is grown aerobically
          (with oxygen). The yeast population which exists at
          the end of fermentation has depleted levels making
          yeast cells more sensitive during subsequent
          fermentations and fermentation more likely to stick.

          So the yeast produce and accumulates lipids during its
          growth in the yeast factory. Then, during anaerobic
          fermentation (without oxygen) in the wash, each new
          generation of yeast contains less and less lipids.
          Lipids are needed for alcohol tolerance which make
          this important to 14% Turbos and far more important to
          18% Turbos. If to many generations have passed
          (because of reuse of yeast or to little yeast to start
          with) the yeast have low "lipid protection" and
          alcohol tolerance decrease.

          Dried yeast also contains typically 15% Trehalose
          which is a "protectant sugar". It gives the yeast cell
          internal strength and also is an excellent "start
          sugar" for the yeast to use at the start of
          fermentation. Cells at the end of fermentation will
          typically contain only 2 or 3% Trehalose. Trehalose
          protect against the shock when the yeast are mixed in
          the wash.

          2. Nutrient depletion
          Not relevant for beer, partly relevant for wine but
          totally relevant for Turbo. So for Turbo, because the
          sugar offers no nutritional value, re-using the yeast
          a second time will result in a stuck.

          Turbos also contains pH-buffer to give the yeast
          perfect pH conditions. Nutrients not only work as
          nutrients, they also keep the production of volatiles
          down to a minimum. Nutrients are consumed by the
          yeast. Re-use of a Good Turbo yeast will also result
          in a lot more volatiles in the wash. pH-buffer will
          not work in the second batch. There are other
          ingredients making the CO2 leave faster, giving the
          yeast cells something to claim to and move around in
          the fermentation, assist clearing after fermentation
          etc. Those functions will also be spoiled as they are
          a part of the nutrients.

          Nutrient composition are the manufacturers secrets.
          One can not simply add some DAP
          (diammoniumphosphate)or similar and expect it to work
          the same. The first Turbo in the world was made in
          Sweden. They are sold under the name Prestige and are
          extremely good. At
          http://www.turbo-yeast.com/intro.html
          there is a lot of info about quality Turbos including
          a "recipe" telling how "Bad Turbos" are made.

          There is also info about yeast strains at:
          http://www.lallemand.com/danstar-lalvin/lalvin.html
          It is a bit surprising that they not have some never
          information here, only old basics.

          One could talk about genetic drift and bacterial risks
          too, but it is not so important.

          Kindest regards
          Ola


          __________________________________________________
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          Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
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          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



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        • G&N
          Ted....... your postings,they are all counter productive as you only say how good reusing yeast is and how bad the Turbos are.. No description on exactly what
          Message 4 of 20 , May 4, 2001
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            Ted....... your postings,they are all counter productive as
            you only say how good reusing yeast is and how bad the Turbos are.. No
            description on exactly what sort of yeast to use .....ingredient or the
            like ...it is getting very frustrating for the average distiller ..well me
            anyways.
             
            Glenn
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 9:58 AM
            Subject: Re: [Distillers] re-using yeast

            if people need / want a quick ferment - then Turbo is the
            obvious answer.

            No its not. I have a yeast that can ferment to 17% with greater than 80% attenuation in less than 4 days at 75 degrees F. It has a slight h2so4 nose to it but it clears bright in 2 days and then you can't smell the h2so4. Esters and phenols are slight to none. No breadiness, sour or vegemite aromas from the yeast that has been stored for 2 weeks and its viability is 94% after 34 generations. This yeast is a work horse!  www.whitelabs.com/yeast_descriptions.htm#WLP001- California Ale Yeast
            This isn't the only one out there that is fantastic either.
             
            Turbo lasts one maybe three generations if you know how to care for it. It wasn't designed for use in beverage applications. It has nutritional needs that need constant attention. This yeast is twice as cranky as your wife during a full moon! Why use it? Because you always have? that's the only thing that the shop sells? because you think 23% alc. is going to be better tasting? The only reason to use it is to get to the magic number 23, and that my friend is not a very good reason to me.
            Really! Why do you keep using it? I used it a half dozen times and the flavor of the wash was awful. I can't even condone its use for fuel alcohol because of its difficult nature.
            Would you own a car that needs to be repaired every other day or would you get one that is reliable for years of hard driving?
            Hmm?
            _____________
            Ted Palmer
            tpalmer@...
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 5:19 PM
            Subject: Re: [Distillers] re-using yeast

            Ted

            Just because you don't like Turbo's doesn't mean others shouldn't -
            everyone is entitled to their opinion. 

            We can all make up our minds as to what we like / prefer.

            One of the reasons many people like the turbo's is because they provide a
            quick ferment - if people need / want a quick ferment - then Turbo is the
            obvious answer.

            Each different yeast displays a different series of performance
            characteristics - way too numerous to mention here.

            I have tried most of the spirit yeasts available here in New Zealand, and
            have drawn my own conclusions as to what I believe is the best performing
            yeasts - but then you must quantify your specific requirements in a yeast,
            namely:

            RESULTING QUALITY OF DISTILLATE (TASTE & SMELL)
            SPEED OF FERMENT
            YIELD
            etc etc

            In my experience, one yeast will not be able to provide all the
            characteristics you require or demand - and as with most things in life -
            there is a trade off.  If you require more of one specific characteristic,
            then it will perform less in another area.

            Further thoughts . . .

            Cheers

            Kiwi Gary

            ----------
            From: Ted Palmer <tpalmer@...>
            To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [Distillers] re-using yeast
            Date: Saturday, 5 May 2001 11:17

            Several more reasons not to use turbo.
            _____________
            Ted Palmer
            tpalmer@...

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Ola Norrman
              To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 3:22 PM
              Subject: Re: [Distillers] re-using yeast


              Turbo Yeast (a mixture of yeast and nutrients) - shall
              never be reused. There are 2 main reasons for this:

              1.  Yeast condition.
              During the manufacture of dried yeast, very high
              levels of phospholipids are accumulated within the
              plasma membrane because the yeast is grown aerobically
              (with oxygen).  The yeast population which exists at
              the end of fermentation has depleted levels making
              yeast cells more sensitive during subsequent
              fermentations and fermentation more likely to stick.

              So the yeast produce and accumulates lipids during its
              growth in the yeast factory. Then, during anaerobic
              fermentation (without oxygen) in the wash, each new
              generation of yeast contains less and less lipids.
              Lipids are needed for alcohol tolerance which make
              this important to 14% Turbos and far more important to
              18% Turbos. If to many generations have passed
              (because of reuse of yeast or to little yeast to start
              with) the yeast have low "lipid protection" and
              alcohol tolerance decrease.

              Dried yeast also contains typically 15% Trehalose
              which is a "protectant sugar". It gives the yeast cell
              internal strength and also is an excellent "start
              sugar" for the yeast to use at the start of
              fermentation.  Cells at the end of fermentation will
              typically contain only 2 or 3% Trehalose. Trehalose
              protect against the shock when the yeast are mixed in
              the wash.

              2.  Nutrient depletion
              Not relevant for beer, partly relevant for wine but
              totally relevant for Turbo.  So for Turbo, because the
              sugar offers no nutritional value, re-using the yeast
              a second time will result in a stuck.

              Turbos also contains pH-buffer to give the yeast
              perfect pH conditions. Nutrients not only work as
              nutrients, they also keep the production of volatiles
              down to a minimum. Nutrients are consumed by the
              yeast. Re-use of a Good Turbo yeast will also result
              in a lot more volatiles in the wash. pH-buffer will
              not work in the second batch. There are other
              ingredients making the CO2 leave faster, giving the
              yeast cells something to claim to and move around in
              the fermentation, assist clearing after fermentation
              etc. Those functions will also be spoiled as they are
              a part of the nutrients.

                Nutrient composition are the manufacturers secrets.
              One can not simply add some DAP
              (diammoniumphosphate)or similar and expect it to work
              the same. The first Turbo in the world was made in
              Sweden. They are sold under the name Prestige and are
              extremely good. At
              http://www.turbo-yeast.com/intro.html
              there is a lot of info about quality Turbos including
              a "recipe" telling how "Bad Turbos" are made.

              There is also info about yeast strains at:
              http://www.lallemand.com/danstar-lalvin/lalvin.html
              It is a bit surprising that they not have some never
              information here, only old basics.

              One could talk about genetic drift and bacterial risks
              too, but it is not so important.

              Kindest regards
              Ola


              __________________________________________________
              Do You Yahoo!?
              Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
              http://auctions.yahoo.com/

                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                  
                  

              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
          • Ted Palmer
            I was just wondering what qualifications and experience you may have in this field to back up your claims. Well, I got into the hobby when I was 10 with my
            Message 5 of 20 , May 5, 2001
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              I was just wondering what qualifications
              and experience you may have in this field to back up your claims.

              Well, I got into the hobby when I was 10 with my grandfather and built my first still at 16, then I almost got my degree in microbiology when I decided that travel was what I wanted to do and joined the navy for ten years. After I fulfilled my travel needs I got a degree in brewing science and started working in microbreweries. I've been brewing professionally for 8 years now and absolutely love it. My goal for the next decade is to start a microdistillery/brewpub.
              I don't feel that I am "whitewashing" anyone's ideas, just erasing falsehoods and ignorance about yeast, My favorite animal in the world. And before anyone says its not an animal it is a fungus, let me say that there is a huge debate about just that going on in academia at the moment. Some say yeast should be reclassified up a level from fungus because of its cellular makeup.
              It is good to hear you are using different yeasts that are making better tasting alcohol.
              _____________
              Ted Palmer
              tpalmer@...
              ps My cranky wife who is a geneticist wanted to know: with all the fear about genetically engineered foods why people would use an engineered yeast for something they are going to drink?
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 8:08 PM
              Subject: Re: [Distillers] re-using yeast

              Ted, and others

              I do not always use a turbo yeast - I am trialling several others also, and
              have a large number of yeast available for sale and use.

              I may use yeast for variety of reasons, which I have already touched on.
              Lately I have been using a yeast that is much slower fermenting than a
              turbo, but results in a superb wash and distillate flavour! Even then I
              wouldn't drink a glass full of it! No way!

              It appears Turbo's were simply not designed to be re-used at all, along
              with many of the other high alcohol yeasts designed for beverage
              consumption.

              As you seem to have fairly strong views on this subject, and basically
              whitewash everyone else's ideas, I was just wondering what qualifications
              and experience you may have in this field to back up your claims.

              Just for the record, I do not have any qualifications at all, and simply
              draw on my own personal experiences to date with relation to taste, yield,
              and speed of ferment etc etc.

              Cheers

              Kiwi Gary
              gluyas@...

              PS.  Also for the record: my wife is cranky ALL of the time, not just
              during a full moon! THAT IS WHY I MARRIED HER!   KG

              ----------
              From: Ted Palmer <tpalmer@...>
              To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com; Gary Gluyas <gluyas@...>
              Subject: Re: [Distillers] re-using yeast
              Date: Saturday, 5 May 2001 13:58

              if people need / want a quick ferment - then Turbo is the
              obvious answer.

              No its not. I have a yeast that can ferment to 17% with greater than 80%
              attenuation in less than 4 days at 75 degrees F. It has a slight h2so4 nose
              to it but it clears bright in 2 days and then you can't smell the h2so4.
              Esters and phenols are slight to none. No breadiness, sour or vegemite
              aromas from the yeast that has been stored for 2 weeks and its viability is
              94% after 34 generations. This yeast is a work horse!
              www.whitelabs.com/yeast_descriptions.htm#WLP001- California Ale Yeast
              This isn't the only one out there that is fantastic either.

              Turbo lasts one maybe three generations if you know how to care for it. It
              wasn't designed for use in beverage applications. It has nutritional needs
              that need constant attention. This yeast is twice as cranky as your wife
              during a full moon! Why use it? Because you always have? that's the only
              thing that the shop sells? because you think 23% alc. is going to be better
              tasting? The only reason to use it is to get to the magic number 23, and
              that my friend is not a very good reason to me.
              Really! Why do you keep using it? I used it a half dozen times and the
              flavor of the wash was awful. I can't even condone its use for fuel alcohol
              because of its difficult nature.
              Would you own a car that needs to be repaired every other day or would you
              get one that is reliable for years of hard driving?
              Hmm?
              _____________
              Ted Palmer
              tpalmer@...

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Gary Gluyas
                To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com ; Ted Palmer
                Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 5:19 PM
                Subject: Re: [Distillers] re-using yeast


                Ted

                Just because you don't like Turbo's doesn't mean others shouldn't -
                everyone is entitled to their opinion. 

                We can all make up our minds as to what we like / prefer.

                One of the reasons many people like the turbo's is because they provide a
                quick ferment - if people need / want a quick ferment - then Turbo is the
                obvious answer.

                Each different yeast displays a different series of performance
                characteristics - way too numerous to mention here.

                I have tried most of the spirit yeasts available here in New Zealand, and
                have drawn my own conclusions as to what I believe is the best performing
                yeasts - but then you must quantify your specific requirements in a
              yeast,
                namely:

                RESULTING QUALITY OF DISTILLATE (TASTE & SMELL)
                SPEED OF FERMENT
                YIELD
                etc etc

                In my experience, one yeast will not be able to provide all the
                characteristics you require or demand - and as with most things in life -
                there is a trade off.  If you require more of one specific
              characteristic,
                then it will perform less in another area.

                Further thoughts . . .

                Cheers

                Kiwi Gary

                ----------
                From: Ted Palmer <tpalmer@...>
                To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [Distillers] re-using yeast
                Date: Saturday, 5 May 2001 11:17

                Several more reasons not to use turbo.
                _____________
                Ted Palmer
                tpalmer@...

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Ola Norrman
                  To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 3:22 PM
                  Subject: Re: [Distillers] re-using yeast


                  Turbo Yeast (a mixture of yeast and nutrients) - shall
                  never be reused. There are 2 main reasons for this:

                  1.  Yeast condition.
                  During the manufacture of dried yeast, very high
                  levels of phospholipids are accumulated within the
                  plasma membrane because the yeast is grown aerobically
                  (with oxygen).  The yeast population which exists at
                  the end of fermentation has depleted levels making
                  yeast cells more sensitive during subsequent
                  fermentations and fermentation more likely to stick.

                  So the yeast produce and accumulates lipids during its
                  growth in the yeast factory. Then, during anaerobic
                  fermentation (without oxygen) in the wash, each new
                  generation of yeast contains less and less lipids.
                  Lipids are needed for alcohol tolerance which make
                  this important to 14% Turbos and far more important to
                  18% Turbos. If to many generations have passed
                  (because of reuse of yeast or to little yeast to start
                  with) the yeast have low "lipid protection" and
                  alcohol tolerance decrease.

                  Dried yeast also contains typically 15% Trehalose
                  which is a "protectant sugar". It gives the yeast cell
                  internal strength and also is an excellent "start
                  sugar" for the yeast to use at the start of
                  fermentation.  Cells at the end of fermentation will
                  typically contain only 2 or 3% Trehalose. Trehalose
                  protect against the shock when the yeast are mixed in
                  the wash.

                  2.  Nutrient depletion
                  Not relevant for beer, partly relevant for wine but
                  totally relevant for Turbo.  So for Turbo, because the
                  sugar offers no nutritional value, re-using the yeast
                  a second time will result in a stuck.

                  Turbos also contains pH-buffer to give the yeast
                  perfect pH conditions. Nutrients not only work as
                  nutrients, they also keep the production of volatiles
                  down to a minimum. Nutrients are consumed by the
                  yeast. Re-use of a Good Turbo yeast will also result
                  in a lot more volatiles in the wash. pH-buffer will
                  not work in the second batch. There are other
                  ingredients making the CO2 leave faster, giving the
                  yeast cells something to claim to and move around in
                  the fermentation, assist clearing after fermentation
                  etc. Those functions will also be spoiled as they are
                  a part of the nutrients.

                    Nutrient composition are the manufacturers secrets.
                  One can not simply add some DAP
                  (diammoniumphosphate)or similar and expect it to work
                  the same. The first Turbo in the world was made in
                  Sweden. They are sold under the name Prestige and are
                  extremely good. At
                  http://www.turbo-yeast.com/intro.html
                  there is a lot of info about quality Turbos including
                  a "recipe" telling how "Bad Turbos" are made.

                  There is also info about yeast strains at:
                  http://www.lallemand.com/danstar-lalvin/lalvin.html
                  It is a bit surprising that they not have some never
                  information here, only old basics.

                  One could talk about genetic drift and bacterial risks
                  too, but it is not so important.

                  Kindest regards
                  Ola


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            • Grayson Stewart
              ... the ... water mix ... Thats all I do. Try to let the wash settle as much as possible to retain the maximum amount of yeast then add the new sugar water
              Message 6 of 20 , Jul 12, 2004
              • 0 Attachment
                > I have a batch of 1118 about ready to cook, if I carefully decant
                the
                > liquid leaving the yeast cake, should I simply mix up the sugar
                water mix
                > and add and stir?

                Thats all I do. Try to let the wash settle as much as possible to
                retain the maximum amount of yeast then add the new sugar water
                mix. Be sure and not add a sugar water mix that is too hot so it
                won't harm the yeast.

                I have read about adding tomatoe paste (or tomatoe
                > sauce?) as a yeast nutrient. Is it paste or sauce?

                I have always used tomato paste.

                And what about the multi
                > vitamin?

                Several people say that the B vitamins are all that is really
                required and anything else is a waste. This may be true, but a
                store brand multi-vitamin has all the B vitamins and is the same
                price. I leave a couple of the vitamins in an ounce or two of water
                to dissolve then add at the same time I add the sugar water.
              • Harry
                ... wrote: ... water ... Berocca tablets work well, 1 per 25 lt mash. Slainte! regards Harry
                Message 7 of 20 , Jul 12, 2004
                • 0 Attachment
                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Grayson Stewart"
                  <grayson_stewart66@y...> wrote:
                  <snip>
                  >
                  > Several people say that the B vitamins are all that is really
                  > required and anything else is a waste. This may be true, but a
                  > store brand multi-vitamin has all the B vitamins and is the same
                  > price. I leave a couple of the vitamins in an ounce or two of
                  water
                  > to dissolve then add at the same time I add the sugar water.



                  Berocca tablets work well, 1 per 25 lt mash.


                  Slainte!
                  regards Harry
                • David
                  I have a batch of 1118 about ready to cook, if I carefully decant the liquid leaving the yeast cake, should I simply mix up the sugar water mix and add and
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jul 12, 2004
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I have a batch of 1118 about ready to cook, if I carefully decant the
                    liquid leaving the yeast cake, should I simply mix up the sugar water mix
                    and add and stir? I have read about adding tomatoe paste (or tomatoe
                    sauce?) as a yeast nutrient. Is it paste or sauce? And what about the multi
                    vitamin? I sure appreciate all you folks out there who are willing to share
                    their knowledge, (and humor.) Thanks, Dave
                  • Scott Petrinec
                    I usually leave just a tiny bit of liquid(just enough to cover the yeast cake, and then add my sugarwater(MAKE SURE IT IS COOLED DOWN TO ABOUT ROOM TEMPERATURE
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jul 12, 2004
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                      I usually leave just a tiny bit of liquid(just enough to cover the yeast cake, and then add my sugarwater(MAKE SURE IT IS COOLED DOWN TO ABOUT ROOM TEMPERATURE FIRST). And then I add 1 small can of tomatoe paste. Stirr it very well. A multi-vitamin wouldn't hurt either.(in addition to the tomatoe paste)(some people also add a couple tablespoons of lemon or lime juice for PH reasons, but I don't think it is necessary because the tomatoe paste has the needed acids,along with the needed nutrients).

                      David <maxtonnage@...> wrote:I have a batch of 1118 about ready to cook, if I carefully decant the
                      liquid leaving the yeast cake, should I simply mix up the sugar water mix
                      and add and stir? I have read about adding tomatoe paste (or tomatoe
                      sauce?) as a yeast nutrient. Is it paste or sauce? And what about the multi
                      vitamin? I sure appreciate all you folks out there who are willing to share
                      their knowledge, (and humor.) Thanks, Dave



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                    • Grayson Stewart
                      ... Not being familiar with the name Berocca, I had to do an internet search. Seems the key ingredients are the B and C vitamins. This made me wonder if using
                      Message 10 of 20 , Jul 12, 2004
                      • 0 Attachment
                        > Berocca tablets work well, 1 per 25 lt mash.

                        Not being familiar with the name Berocca, I had to do an internet
                        search. Seems the key ingredients are the B and C vitamins.

                        This made me wonder if using tums which are 60% calcium and a dose
                        of orange juice would work as well.
                      • Harry
                        ... Sorry Gray. Tums is for neutralising stomach acid. Berocca is a fast-acting B-vitamin dietary supplement. Here s the info... WHAT IS BEROCCA? Berocca is
                        Message 11 of 20 , Jul 12, 2004
                        • 0 Attachment
                          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Grayson Stewart"
                          <grayson_stewart66@y...> wrote:
                          >
                          > > Berocca tablets work well, 1 per 25 lt mash.
                          >
                          > Not being familiar with the name Berocca, I had to do an internet
                          > search. Seems the key ingredients are the B and C vitamins.
                          >
                          > This made me wonder if using tums which are 60% calcium and a dose
                          > of orange juice would work as well.


                          Sorry Gray. Tums is for neutralising stomach acid. Berocca is a
                          fast-acting B-vitamin dietary supplement. Here's the info...

                          WHAT IS BEROCCA?
                          Berocca is a very popular dietary supplement among people constantly
                          on the go. Especially after a big night out, this is just what the
                          body needs to replenish its temporary stores of the water-soluble B
                          & C group vitamins. Each effervescent Roche Berocca tablet contains
                          1000mg of vitamin C, which (studies have shown) boosts the stamina
                          of the human body's immune system by providing greater antiviral
                          immunity and lowering your susceptibility to allergic disease. Each
                          berocca tablet also contains seven different B group vitamins to
                          keep you moving and to give you energy.



                          BEROCCA - THE HANGOVER CURE THAT WORKS
                          Alcohol consumption and smoking, along with sleep deprivation, can
                          take a significant tole on your body. That doesn't by any means mean
                          you shouldn't be doing it, but when you do, treat yourself to a
                          Berocca. Take one before you go out, and one when you're going to
                          bed. Berocca will replace the materials your body needs in order to
                          repair itself. Coupled with ginseng, Berocca will give you a major
                          energy boost for a long day ahead, which is great if you have only
                          had a few hours sleep.



                          EACH BEROCCA TABLET CONTAINS:

                          ---------------------------------------------------------------------
                          -----------
                          Thiamine nitrate (Vitamin B1)............................ 20.5mg
                          Riboflavine sodium phosphate
                          ___ (equivalent to 15mg Riboflavine (Vitamin B2))........ 50mg
                          Nicotinamide............................................. 25mg
                          Calcium pantothenate
                          ___ (equivalent to 23mg Pantothenic acid (Vitamin B5))... 10mg
                          Pyridoxine hydrochloride (Vitamin B6).................... 10mcg
                          Cyanocobalamin (Vitamin B12)............................. 150mcg
                          Biotin (Vitamin H)....................................... 1000mg
                          Ascorbic acid (Vitamin C)................................ 65mg
                          Calcium (as Calcium pantothenate and Calcium carbonate).. 15mg

                          Contains sucrose, equivalent to 8.9kJ

                          Contains sodium chloride.
                          -----------------------------------------------------------------
                          Each Berocca tablet contains 285mg of sodium, which should be taken
                          into account by those on a low sodium diet. Vitamins can only be of
                          assistance if the dietary vitamin intake is inadequate.



                          Slainte!
                          regards Harry
                        • Maxime Belair
                          What amount of tomato paste should be added for 20L of sugar wash? Does it removes the need to add DAP and other nutrients? Thank you, Maxime Belair
                          Message 12 of 20 , Jul 12, 2004
                          • 0 Attachment
                            What amount of tomato paste should be added for 20L of
                            sugar wash?

                            Does it removes the need to add DAP and other
                            nutrients?

                            Thank you,

                            Maxime Belair

                            __________________________________________________________
                            Lèche-vitrine ou lèche-écran ?
                            magasinage.yahoo.ca
                          • Scott Petrinec
                            I use one small can (6 oz) for a 20L wash. It contains VitaminA , VitaminC , Iron, Proteins, And acids. I use sugar, tomatoe paste and 2 tablespoons lemon
                            Message 13 of 20 , Jul 13, 2004
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                              I use one small can (6 oz) for a 20L wash.
                              It contains VitaminA , VitaminC , Iron, Proteins, And acids.
                              I use sugar, tomatoe paste and 2 tablespoons lemon juice.

                              Maxime Belair <maxime_belair@...> wrote:
                              What amount of tomato paste should be added for 20L of
                              sugar wash?

                              Does it removes the need to add DAP and other
                              nutrients?

                              Thank you,

                              Maxime Belair

                              __________________________________________________________
                              L�che-vitrine ou l�che-�cran ?
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                            • Maxime Belair
                              Wow! Only this and it works ? How much sugar do you use and how much time does it takes to ferment and with what yeast? If I could only use tomato paste as a
                              Message 14 of 20 , Jul 13, 2004
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                                Wow! Only this and it works ?
                                How much sugar do you use and how much time does it
                                takes to ferment and with what yeast?

                                If I could only use tomato paste as a nutrient it
                                would cost me much less.

                                Thank you,

                                Maxime Belair
                                =====
                                I use one small can (6 oz) for a 20L wash.
                                > It contains VitaminA , VitaminC , Iron, Proteins,
                                > And acids.
                                > I use sugar, tomatoe paste and 2 tablespoons lemon
                                > juice.


                                __________________________________________________________
                                Lèche-vitrine ou lèche-écran ?
                                magasinage.yahoo.ca
                              • Scott Petrinec
                                I use 15lbs sugar, 1 can(6oz) of paste, 2 tablespoons lemon juice. I have used many different yeasts, the one I use most is Red Star champagne yeast, 5 -5gram
                                Message 15 of 20 , Jul 13, 2004
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                                  I use 15lbs sugar, 1 can(6oz) of paste, 2 tablespoons lemon juice.
                                  I have used many different yeasts, the one I use most is Red Star champagne yeast, 5 -5gram satchets.(I buy it from www.grapestompers.com ) BUT...just about any baker's yeast or turbo works well too.
                                  It usually ferments out in 1-2 weeks (depending on conditions). I usually get a 15-18%abv .

                                  Maxime Belair <maxime_belair@...> wrote:
                                  Wow! Only this and it works ?
                                  How much sugar do you use and how much time does it
                                  takes to ferment and with what yeast?

                                  If I could only use tomato paste as a nutrient it
                                  would cost me much less.

                                  Thank you,

                                  Maxime Belair
                                  =====
                                  I use one small can (6 oz) for a 20L wash.
                                  > It contains VitaminA , VitaminC , Iron, Proteins,
                                  > And acids.
                                  > I use sugar, tomatoe paste and 2 tablespoons lemon
                                  > juice.


                                  __________________________________________________________
                                  L�che-vitrine ou l�che-�cran ?
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                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Maxime Belair
                                  Thanks, I ll try this again with the tomato paste. My first wash used tomato paste + fermaid and didn t ferment in a short time. I took months to get to 12%
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Jul 13, 2004
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                                    Thanks, I'll try this again with the tomato paste. My
                                    first wash used tomato paste + fermaid and didn't
                                    ferment in a short time. I took months to get to 12%
                                    !

                                    Now I made a new recipe using a part of brown sugar in
                                    the white sugar wash. It ferments at 1% per day but
                                    when it reach about 10% it started to make only .5%
                                    per day and it is still fermenting now.

                                    Also in this recipe I added 1tsp of fermaid (yeast
                                    nutrient) / 4 liters.

                                    I don't know why it does not work faster...

                                    Maybe it's because I didn't start with enough yeast.
                                    10gr/40L

                                    Thanks,

                                    Maxime Belair

                                    ====
                                    I use 15lbs sugar, 1 can(6oz) of paste, 2
                                    > tablespoons lemon juice.
                                    > I have used many different yeasts, the one I use
                                    > most is Red Star champagne yeast, 5 -5gram
                                    > satchets.(I buy it from www.grapestompers.com )
                                    > BUT...just about any baker's yeast or turbo works
                                    > well too.
                                    > It usually ferments out in 1-2 weeks (depending on
                                    > conditions). I usually get a 15-18%abv .


                                    __________________________________________________________
                                    Lèche-vitrine ou lèche-écran ?
                                    magasinage.yahoo.ca
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