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Re: [Distillers] re-using yeast

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  • Gary Gluyas
    Hello All I have read all the posts, and have still not changed my mind - I will not be re-using yeast. As they say . . . I rest my case! Cheers Kiwi Gary
    Message 1 of 20 , May 4 5:06 PM
    • 0 Attachment
      Hello All

      I have read all the posts, and have still not changed my mind - I will not
      be re-using yeast.

      As they say . . . I rest my case!

      Cheers

      Kiwi Gary
      gluyas @...

      ----------
      From: Ted Palmer <tpalmer@...>
      To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [Distillers] re-using yeast
      Date: Saturday, 5 May 2001 11:17

      Several more reasons not to use turbo.
      _____________
      Ted Palmer
      tpalmer@...

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Ola Norrman
      To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 3:22 PM
      Subject: Re: [Distillers] re-using yeast


      Turbo Yeast (a mixture of yeast and nutrients) - shall
      never be reused. There are 2 main reasons for this:

      1. Yeast condition.
      During the manufacture of dried yeast, very high
      levels of phospholipids are accumulated within the
      plasma membrane because the yeast is grown aerobically
      (with oxygen). The yeast population which exists at
      the end of fermentation has depleted levels making
      yeast cells more sensitive during subsequent
      fermentations and fermentation more likely to stick.

      So the yeast produce and accumulates lipids during its
      growth in the yeast factory. Then, during anaerobic
      fermentation (without oxygen) in the wash, each new
      generation of yeast contains less and less lipids.
      Lipids are needed for alcohol tolerance which make
      this important to 14% Turbos and far more important to
      18% Turbos. If to many generations have passed
      (because of reuse of yeast or to little yeast to start
      with) the yeast have low "lipid protection" and
      alcohol tolerance decrease.

      Dried yeast also contains typically 15% Trehalose
      which is a "protectant sugar". It gives the yeast cell
      internal strength and also is an excellent "start
      sugar" for the yeast to use at the start of
      fermentation. Cells at the end of fermentation will
      typically contain only 2 or 3% Trehalose. Trehalose
      protect against the shock when the yeast are mixed in
      the wash.

      2. Nutrient depletion
      Not relevant for beer, partly relevant for wine but
      totally relevant for Turbo. So for Turbo, because the
      sugar offers no nutritional value, re-using the yeast
      a second time will result in a stuck.

      Turbos also contains pH-buffer to give the yeast
      perfect pH conditions. Nutrients not only work as
      nutrients, they also keep the production of volatiles
      down to a minimum. Nutrients are consumed by the
      yeast. Re-use of a Good Turbo yeast will also result
      in a lot more volatiles in the wash. pH-buffer will
      not work in the second batch. There are other
      ingredients making the CO2 leave faster, giving the
      yeast cells something to claim to and move around in
      the fermentation, assist clearing after fermentation
      etc. Those functions will also be spoiled as they are
      a part of the nutrients.

      Nutrient composition are the manufacturers secrets.
      One can not simply add some DAP
      (diammoniumphosphate)or similar and expect it to work
      the same. The first Turbo in the world was made in
      Sweden. They are sold under the name Prestige and are
      extremely good. At
      http://www.turbo-yeast.com/intro.html
      there is a lot of info about quality Turbos including
      a "recipe" telling how "Bad Turbos" are made.

      There is also info about yeast strains at:
      http://www.lallemand.com/danstar-lalvin/lalvin.html
      It is a bit surprising that they not have some never
      information here, only old basics.

      One could talk about genetic drift and bacterial risks
      too, but it is not so important.

      Kindest regards
      Ola


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    • Gary Gluyas
      Ted Just because you don t like Turbo s doesn t mean others shouldn t - everyone is entitled to their opinion. We can all make up our minds as to what we like
      Message 2 of 20 , May 4 5:19 PM
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        Ted

        Just because you don't like Turbo's doesn't mean others shouldn't -
        everyone is entitled to their opinion.

        We can all make up our minds as to what we like / prefer.

        One of the reasons many people like the turbo's is because they provide a
        quick ferment - if people need / want a quick ferment - then Turbo is the
        obvious answer.

        Each different yeast displays a different series of performance
        characteristics - way too numerous to mention here.

        I have tried most of the spirit yeasts available here in New Zealand, and
        have drawn my own conclusions as to what I believe is the best performing
        yeasts - but then you must quantify your specific requirements in a yeast,
        namely:

        RESULTING QUALITY OF DISTILLATE (TASTE & SMELL)
        SPEED OF FERMENT
        YIELD
        etc etc

        In my experience, one yeast will not be able to provide all the
        characteristics you require or demand - and as with most things in life -
        there is a trade off. If you require more of one specific characteristic,
        then it will perform less in another area.

        Further thoughts . . .

        Cheers

        Kiwi Gary

        ----------
        From: Ted Palmer <tpalmer@...>
        To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [Distillers] re-using yeast
        Date: Saturday, 5 May 2001 11:17

        Several more reasons not to use turbo.
        _____________
        Ted Palmer
        tpalmer@...

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Ola Norrman
        To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 3:22 PM
        Subject: Re: [Distillers] re-using yeast


        Turbo Yeast (a mixture of yeast and nutrients) - shall
        never be reused. There are 2 main reasons for this:

        1. Yeast condition.
        During the manufacture of dried yeast, very high
        levels of phospholipids are accumulated within the
        plasma membrane because the yeast is grown aerobically
        (with oxygen). The yeast population which exists at
        the end of fermentation has depleted levels making
        yeast cells more sensitive during subsequent
        fermentations and fermentation more likely to stick.

        So the yeast produce and accumulates lipids during its
        growth in the yeast factory. Then, during anaerobic
        fermentation (without oxygen) in the wash, each new
        generation of yeast contains less and less lipids.
        Lipids are needed for alcohol tolerance which make
        this important to 14% Turbos and far more important to
        18% Turbos. If to many generations have passed
        (because of reuse of yeast or to little yeast to start
        with) the yeast have low "lipid protection" and
        alcohol tolerance decrease.

        Dried yeast also contains typically 15% Trehalose
        which is a "protectant sugar". It gives the yeast cell
        internal strength and also is an excellent "start
        sugar" for the yeast to use at the start of
        fermentation. Cells at the end of fermentation will
        typically contain only 2 or 3% Trehalose. Trehalose
        protect against the shock when the yeast are mixed in
        the wash.

        2. Nutrient depletion
        Not relevant for beer, partly relevant for wine but
        totally relevant for Turbo. So for Turbo, because the
        sugar offers no nutritional value, re-using the yeast
        a second time will result in a stuck.

        Turbos also contains pH-buffer to give the yeast
        perfect pH conditions. Nutrients not only work as
        nutrients, they also keep the production of volatiles
        down to a minimum. Nutrients are consumed by the
        yeast. Re-use of a Good Turbo yeast will also result
        in a lot more volatiles in the wash. pH-buffer will
        not work in the second batch. There are other
        ingredients making the CO2 leave faster, giving the
        yeast cells something to claim to and move around in
        the fermentation, assist clearing after fermentation
        etc. Those functions will also be spoiled as they are
        a part of the nutrients.

        Nutrient composition are the manufacturers secrets.
        One can not simply add some DAP
        (diammoniumphosphate)or similar and expect it to work
        the same. The first Turbo in the world was made in
        Sweden. They are sold under the name Prestige and are
        extremely good. At
        http://www.turbo-yeast.com/intro.html
        there is a lot of info about quality Turbos including
        a "recipe" telling how "Bad Turbos" are made.

        There is also info about yeast strains at:
        http://www.lallemand.com/danstar-lalvin/lalvin.html
        It is a bit surprising that they not have some never
        information here, only old basics.

        One could talk about genetic drift and bacterial risks
        too, but it is not so important.

        Kindest regards
        Ola


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      • Ted Palmer
        if people need / want a quick ferment - then Turbo is the obvious answer. No its not. I have a yeast that can ferment to 17% with greater than 80% attenuation
        Message 3 of 20 , May 4 6:58 PM
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          if people need / want a quick ferment - then Turbo is the
          obvious answer.

          No its not. I have a yeast that can ferment to 17% with greater than 80% attenuation in less than 4 days at 75 degrees F. It has a slight h2so4 nose to it but it clears bright in 2 days and then you can't smell the h2so4. Esters and phenols are slight to none. No breadiness, sour or vegemite aromas from the yeast that has been stored for 2 weeks and its viability is 94% after 34 generations. This yeast is a work horse!  www.whitelabs.com/yeast_descriptions.htm#WLP001- California Ale Yeast
          This isn't the only one out there that is fantastic either.
           
          Turbo lasts one maybe three generations if you know how to care for it. It wasn't designed for use in beverage applications. It has nutritional needs that need constant attention. This yeast is twice as cranky as your wife during a full moon! Why use it? Because you always have? that's the only thing that the shop sells? because you think 23% alc. is going to be better tasting? The only reason to use it is to get to the magic number 23, and that my friend is not a very good reason to me.
          Really! Why do you keep using it? I used it a half dozen times and the flavor of the wash was awful. I can't even condone its use for fuel alcohol because of its difficult nature.
          Would you own a car that needs to be repaired every other day or would you get one that is reliable for years of hard driving?
          Hmm?
          _____________
          Ted Palmer
          tpalmer@...
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 5:19 PM
          Subject: Re: [Distillers] re-using yeast

          Ted

          Just because you don't like Turbo's doesn't mean others shouldn't -
          everyone is entitled to their opinion. 

          We can all make up our minds as to what we like / prefer.

          One of the reasons many people like the turbo's is because they provide a
          quick ferment - if people need / want a quick ferment - then Turbo is the
          obvious answer.

          Each different yeast displays a different series of performance
          characteristics - way too numerous to mention here.

          I have tried most of the spirit yeasts available here in New Zealand, and
          have drawn my own conclusions as to what I believe is the best performing
          yeasts - but then you must quantify your specific requirements in a yeast,
          namely:

          RESULTING QUALITY OF DISTILLATE (TASTE & SMELL)
          SPEED OF FERMENT
          YIELD
          etc etc

          In my experience, one yeast will not be able to provide all the
          characteristics you require or demand - and as with most things in life -
          there is a trade off.  If you require more of one specific characteristic,
          then it will perform less in another area.

          Further thoughts . . .

          Cheers

          Kiwi Gary

          ----------
          From: Ted Palmer <tpalmer@...>
          To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [Distillers] re-using yeast
          Date: Saturday, 5 May 2001 11:17

          Several more reasons not to use turbo.
          _____________
          Ted Palmer
          tpalmer@...

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Ola Norrman
            To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 3:22 PM
            Subject: Re: [Distillers] re-using yeast


            Turbo Yeast (a mixture of yeast and nutrients) - shall
            never be reused. There are 2 main reasons for this:

            1.  Yeast condition.
            During the manufacture of dried yeast, very high
            levels of phospholipids are accumulated within the
            plasma membrane because the yeast is grown aerobically
            (with oxygen).  The yeast population which exists at
            the end of fermentation has depleted levels making
            yeast cells more sensitive during subsequent
            fermentations and fermentation more likely to stick.

            So the yeast produce and accumulates lipids during its
            growth in the yeast factory. Then, during anaerobic
            fermentation (without oxygen) in the wash, each new
            generation of yeast contains less and less lipids.
            Lipids are needed for alcohol tolerance which make
            this important to 14% Turbos and far more important to
            18% Turbos. If to many generations have passed
            (because of reuse of yeast or to little yeast to start
            with) the yeast have low "lipid protection" and
            alcohol tolerance decrease.

            Dried yeast also contains typically 15% Trehalose
            which is a "protectant sugar". It gives the yeast cell
            internal strength and also is an excellent "start
            sugar" for the yeast to use at the start of
            fermentation.  Cells at the end of fermentation will
            typically contain only 2 or 3% Trehalose. Trehalose
            protect against the shock when the yeast are mixed in
            the wash.

            2.  Nutrient depletion
            Not relevant for beer, partly relevant for wine but
            totally relevant for Turbo.  So for Turbo, because the
            sugar offers no nutritional value, re-using the yeast
            a second time will result in a stuck.

            Turbos also contains pH-buffer to give the yeast
            perfect pH conditions. Nutrients not only work as
            nutrients, they also keep the production of volatiles
            down to a minimum. Nutrients are consumed by the
            yeast. Re-use of a Good Turbo yeast will also result
            in a lot more volatiles in the wash. pH-buffer will
            not work in the second batch. There are other
            ingredients making the CO2 leave faster, giving the
            yeast cells something to claim to and move around in
            the fermentation, assist clearing after fermentation
            etc. Those functions will also be spoiled as they are
            a part of the nutrients.

              Nutrient composition are the manufacturers secrets.
            One can not simply add some DAP
            (diammoniumphosphate)or similar and expect it to work
            the same. The first Turbo in the world was made in
            Sweden. They are sold under the name Prestige and are
            extremely good. At
            http://www.turbo-yeast.com/intro.html
            there is a lot of info about quality Turbos including
            a "recipe" telling how "Bad Turbos" are made.

            There is also info about yeast strains at:
            http://www.lallemand.com/danstar-lalvin/lalvin.html
            It is a bit surprising that they not have some never
            information here, only old basics.

            One could talk about genetic drift and bacterial risks
            too, but it is not so important.

            Kindest regards
            Ola


            __________________________________________________
            Do You Yahoo!?
            Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
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            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
        • Gary Gluyas
          Ted, and others I do not always use a turbo yeast - I am trialling several others also, and have a large number of yeast available for sale and use. I may use
          Message 4 of 20 , May 4 8:08 PM
          • 0 Attachment
            Ted, and others

            I do not always use a turbo yeast - I am trialling several others also, and
            have a large number of yeast available for sale and use.

            I may use yeast for variety of reasons, which I have already touched on.
            Lately I have been using a yeast that is much slower fermenting than a
            turbo, but results in a superb wash and distillate flavour! Even then I
            wouldn't drink a glass full of it! No way!

            It appears Turbo's were simply not designed to be re-used at all, along
            with many of the other high alcohol yeasts designed for beverage
            consumption.

            As you seem to have fairly strong views on this subject, and basically
            whitewash everyone else's ideas, I was just wondering what qualifications
            and experience you may have in this field to back up your claims.

            Just for the record, I do not have any qualifications at all, and simply
            draw on my own personal experiences to date with relation to taste, yield,
            and speed of ferment etc etc.

            Cheers

            Kiwi Gary
            gluyas@...

            PS. Also for the record: my wife is cranky ALL of the time, not just
            during a full moon! THAT IS WHY I MARRIED HER! KG

            ----------
            From: Ted Palmer <tpalmer@...>
            To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com; Gary Gluyas <gluyas@...>
            Subject: Re: [Distillers] re-using yeast
            Date: Saturday, 5 May 2001 13:58

            if people need / want a quick ferment - then Turbo is the
            obvious answer.

            No its not. I have a yeast that can ferment to 17% with greater than 80%
            attenuation in less than 4 days at 75 degrees F. It has a slight h2so4 nose
            to it but it clears bright in 2 days and then you can't smell the h2so4.
            Esters and phenols are slight to none. No breadiness, sour or vegemite
            aromas from the yeast that has been stored for 2 weeks and its viability is
            94% after 34 generations. This yeast is a work horse!
            www.whitelabs.com/yeast_descriptions.htm#WLP001- California Ale Yeast
            This isn't the only one out there that is fantastic either.

            Turbo lasts one maybe three generations if you know how to care for it. It
            wasn't designed for use in beverage applications. It has nutritional needs
            that need constant attention. This yeast is twice as cranky as your wife
            during a full moon! Why use it? Because you always have? that's the only
            thing that the shop sells? because you think 23% alc. is going to be better
            tasting? The only reason to use it is to get to the magic number 23, and
            that my friend is not a very good reason to me.
            Really! Why do you keep using it? I used it a half dozen times and the
            flavor of the wash was awful. I can't even condone its use for fuel alcohol
            because of its difficult nature.
            Would you own a car that needs to be repaired every other day or would you
            get one that is reliable for years of hard driving?
            Hmm?
            _____________
            Ted Palmer
            tpalmer@...

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Gary Gluyas
            To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com ; Ted Palmer
            Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 5:19 PM
            Subject: Re: [Distillers] re-using yeast


            Ted

            Just because you don't like Turbo's doesn't mean others shouldn't -
            everyone is entitled to their opinion.

            We can all make up our minds as to what we like / prefer.

            One of the reasons many people like the turbo's is because they provide a
            quick ferment - if people need / want a quick ferment - then Turbo is the
            obvious answer.

            Each different yeast displays a different series of performance
            characteristics - way too numerous to mention here.

            I have tried most of the spirit yeasts available here in New Zealand, and
            have drawn my own conclusions as to what I believe is the best performing
            yeasts - but then you must quantify your specific requirements in a
            yeast,
            namely:

            RESULTING QUALITY OF DISTILLATE (TASTE & SMELL)
            SPEED OF FERMENT
            YIELD
            etc etc

            In my experience, one yeast will not be able to provide all the
            characteristics you require or demand - and as with most things in life -
            there is a trade off. If you require more of one specific
            characteristic,
            then it will perform less in another area.

            Further thoughts . . .

            Cheers

            Kiwi Gary

            ----------
            From: Ted Palmer <tpalmer@...>
            To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [Distillers] re-using yeast
            Date: Saturday, 5 May 2001 11:17

            Several more reasons not to use turbo.
            _____________
            Ted Palmer
            tpalmer@...

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Ola Norrman
            To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 3:22 PM
            Subject: Re: [Distillers] re-using yeast


            Turbo Yeast (a mixture of yeast and nutrients) - shall
            never be reused. There are 2 main reasons for this:

            1. Yeast condition.
            During the manufacture of dried yeast, very high
            levels of phospholipids are accumulated within the
            plasma membrane because the yeast is grown aerobically
            (with oxygen). The yeast population which exists at
            the end of fermentation has depleted levels making
            yeast cells more sensitive during subsequent
            fermentations and fermentation more likely to stick.

            So the yeast produce and accumulates lipids during its
            growth in the yeast factory. Then, during anaerobic
            fermentation (without oxygen) in the wash, each new
            generation of yeast contains less and less lipids.
            Lipids are needed for alcohol tolerance which make
            this important to 14% Turbos and far more important to
            18% Turbos. If to many generations have passed
            (because of reuse of yeast or to little yeast to start
            with) the yeast have low "lipid protection" and
            alcohol tolerance decrease.

            Dried yeast also contains typically 15% Trehalose
            which is a "protectant sugar". It gives the yeast cell
            internal strength and also is an excellent "start
            sugar" for the yeast to use at the start of
            fermentation. Cells at the end of fermentation will
            typically contain only 2 or 3% Trehalose. Trehalose
            protect against the shock when the yeast are mixed in
            the wash.

            2. Nutrient depletion
            Not relevant for beer, partly relevant for wine but
            totally relevant for Turbo. So for Turbo, because the
            sugar offers no nutritional value, re-using the yeast
            a second time will result in a stuck.

            Turbos also contains pH-buffer to give the yeast
            perfect pH conditions. Nutrients not only work as
            nutrients, they also keep the production of volatiles
            down to a minimum. Nutrients are consumed by the
            yeast. Re-use of a Good Turbo yeast will also result
            in a lot more volatiles in the wash. pH-buffer will
            not work in the second batch. There are other
            ingredients making the CO2 leave faster, giving the
            yeast cells something to claim to and move around in
            the fermentation, assist clearing after fermentation
            etc. Those functions will also be spoiled as they are
            a part of the nutrients.

            Nutrient composition are the manufacturers secrets.
            One can not simply add some DAP
            (diammoniumphosphate)or similar and expect it to work
            the same. The first Turbo in the world was made in
            Sweden. They are sold under the name Prestige and are
            extremely good. At
            http://www.turbo-yeast.com/intro.html
            there is a lot of info about quality Turbos including
            a "recipe" telling how "Bad Turbos" are made.

            There is also info about yeast strains at:
            http://www.lallemand.com/danstar-lalvin/lalvin.html
            It is a bit surprising that they not have some never
            information here, only old basics.

            One could talk about genetic drift and bacterial risks
            too, but it is not so important.

            Kindest regards
            Ola


            __________________________________________________
            Do You Yahoo!?
            Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
            http://auctions.yahoo.com/

            Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



            Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
          • G&N
            Ted....... your postings,they are all counter productive as you only say how good reusing yeast is and how bad the Turbos are.. No description on exactly what
            Message 5 of 20 , May 4 10:01 PM
            • 0 Attachment

              Ted....... your postings,they are all counter productive as
              you only say how good reusing yeast is and how bad the Turbos are.. No
              description on exactly what sort of yeast to use .....ingredient or the
              like ...it is getting very frustrating for the average distiller ..well me
              anyways.
               
              Glenn
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 9:58 AM
              Subject: Re: [Distillers] re-using yeast

              if people need / want a quick ferment - then Turbo is the
              obvious answer.

              No its not. I have a yeast that can ferment to 17% with greater than 80% attenuation in less than 4 days at 75 degrees F. It has a slight h2so4 nose to it but it clears bright in 2 days and then you can't smell the h2so4. Esters and phenols are slight to none. No breadiness, sour or vegemite aromas from the yeast that has been stored for 2 weeks and its viability is 94% after 34 generations. This yeast is a work horse!  www.whitelabs.com/yeast_descriptions.htm#WLP001- California Ale Yeast
              This isn't the only one out there that is fantastic either.
               
              Turbo lasts one maybe three generations if you know how to care for it. It wasn't designed for use in beverage applications. It has nutritional needs that need constant attention. This yeast is twice as cranky as your wife during a full moon! Why use it? Because you always have? that's the only thing that the shop sells? because you think 23% alc. is going to be better tasting? The only reason to use it is to get to the magic number 23, and that my friend is not a very good reason to me.
              Really! Why do you keep using it? I used it a half dozen times and the flavor of the wash was awful. I can't even condone its use for fuel alcohol because of its difficult nature.
              Would you own a car that needs to be repaired every other day or would you get one that is reliable for years of hard driving?
              Hmm?
              _____________
              Ted Palmer
              tpalmer@...
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 5:19 PM
              Subject: Re: [Distillers] re-using yeast

              Ted

              Just because you don't like Turbo's doesn't mean others shouldn't -
              everyone is entitled to their opinion. 

              We can all make up our minds as to what we like / prefer.

              One of the reasons many people like the turbo's is because they provide a
              quick ferment - if people need / want a quick ferment - then Turbo is the
              obvious answer.

              Each different yeast displays a different series of performance
              characteristics - way too numerous to mention here.

              I have tried most of the spirit yeasts available here in New Zealand, and
              have drawn my own conclusions as to what I believe is the best performing
              yeasts - but then you must quantify your specific requirements in a yeast,
              namely:

              RESULTING QUALITY OF DISTILLATE (TASTE & SMELL)
              SPEED OF FERMENT
              YIELD
              etc etc

              In my experience, one yeast will not be able to provide all the
              characteristics you require or demand - and as with most things in life -
              there is a trade off.  If you require more of one specific characteristic,
              then it will perform less in another area.

              Further thoughts . . .

              Cheers

              Kiwi Gary

              ----------
              From: Ted Palmer <tpalmer@...>
              To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [Distillers] re-using yeast
              Date: Saturday, 5 May 2001 11:17

              Several more reasons not to use turbo.
              _____________
              Ted Palmer
              tpalmer@...

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Ola Norrman
                To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 3:22 PM
                Subject: Re: [Distillers] re-using yeast


                Turbo Yeast (a mixture of yeast and nutrients) - shall
                never be reused. There are 2 main reasons for this:

                1.  Yeast condition.
                During the manufacture of dried yeast, very high
                levels of phospholipids are accumulated within the
                plasma membrane because the yeast is grown aerobically
                (with oxygen).  The yeast population which exists at
                the end of fermentation has depleted levels making
                yeast cells more sensitive during subsequent
                fermentations and fermentation more likely to stick.

                So the yeast produce and accumulates lipids during its
                growth in the yeast factory. Then, during anaerobic
                fermentation (without oxygen) in the wash, each new
                generation of yeast contains less and less lipids.
                Lipids are needed for alcohol tolerance which make
                this important to 14% Turbos and far more important to
                18% Turbos. If to many generations have passed
                (because of reuse of yeast or to little yeast to start
                with) the yeast have low "lipid protection" and
                alcohol tolerance decrease.

                Dried yeast also contains typically 15% Trehalose
                which is a "protectant sugar". It gives the yeast cell
                internal strength and also is an excellent "start
                sugar" for the yeast to use at the start of
                fermentation.  Cells at the end of fermentation will
                typically contain only 2 or 3% Trehalose. Trehalose
                protect against the shock when the yeast are mixed in
                the wash.

                2.  Nutrient depletion
                Not relevant for beer, partly relevant for wine but
                totally relevant for Turbo.  So for Turbo, because the
                sugar offers no nutritional value, re-using the yeast
                a second time will result in a stuck.

                Turbos also contains pH-buffer to give the yeast
                perfect pH conditions. Nutrients not only work as
                nutrients, they also keep the production of volatiles
                down to a minimum. Nutrients are consumed by the
                yeast. Re-use of a Good Turbo yeast will also result
                in a lot more volatiles in the wash. pH-buffer will
                not work in the second batch. There are other
                ingredients making the CO2 leave faster, giving the
                yeast cells something to claim to and move around in
                the fermentation, assist clearing after fermentation
                etc. Those functions will also be spoiled as they are
                a part of the nutrients.

                  Nutrient composition are the manufacturers secrets.
                One can not simply add some DAP
                (diammoniumphosphate)or similar and expect it to work
                the same. The first Turbo in the world was made in
                Sweden. They are sold under the name Prestige and are
                extremely good. At
                http://www.turbo-yeast.com/intro.html
                there is a lot of info about quality Turbos including
                a "recipe" telling how "Bad Turbos" are made.

                There is also info about yeast strains at:
                http://www.lallemand.com/danstar-lalvin/lalvin.html
                It is a bit surprising that they not have some never
                information here, only old basics.

                One could talk about genetic drift and bacterial risks
                too, but it is not so important.

                Kindest regards
                Ola


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            • Ted Palmer
              I was just wondering what qualifications and experience you may have in this field to back up your claims. Well, I got into the hobby when I was 10 with my
              Message 6 of 20 , May 5 9:15 AM
              • 0 Attachment
                I was just wondering what qualifications
                and experience you may have in this field to back up your claims.

                Well, I got into the hobby when I was 10 with my grandfather and built my first still at 16, then I almost got my degree in microbiology when I decided that travel was what I wanted to do and joined the navy for ten years. After I fulfilled my travel needs I got a degree in brewing science and started working in microbreweries. I've been brewing professionally for 8 years now and absolutely love it. My goal for the next decade is to start a microdistillery/brewpub.
                I don't feel that I am "whitewashing" anyone's ideas, just erasing falsehoods and ignorance about yeast, My favorite animal in the world. And before anyone says its not an animal it is a fungus, let me say that there is a huge debate about just that going on in academia at the moment. Some say yeast should be reclassified up a level from fungus because of its cellular makeup.
                It is good to hear you are using different yeasts that are making better tasting alcohol.
                _____________
                Ted Palmer
                tpalmer@...
                ps My cranky wife who is a geneticist wanted to know: with all the fear about genetically engineered foods why people would use an engineered yeast for something they are going to drink?
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 8:08 PM
                Subject: Re: [Distillers] re-using yeast

                Ted, and others

                I do not always use a turbo yeast - I am trialling several others also, and
                have a large number of yeast available for sale and use.

                I may use yeast for variety of reasons, which I have already touched on.
                Lately I have been using a yeast that is much slower fermenting than a
                turbo, but results in a superb wash and distillate flavour! Even then I
                wouldn't drink a glass full of it! No way!

                It appears Turbo's were simply not designed to be re-used at all, along
                with many of the other high alcohol yeasts designed for beverage
                consumption.

                As you seem to have fairly strong views on this subject, and basically
                whitewash everyone else's ideas, I was just wondering what qualifications
                and experience you may have in this field to back up your claims.

                Just for the record, I do not have any qualifications at all, and simply
                draw on my own personal experiences to date with relation to taste, yield,
                and speed of ferment etc etc.

                Cheers

                Kiwi Gary
                gluyas@...

                PS.  Also for the record: my wife is cranky ALL of the time, not just
                during a full moon! THAT IS WHY I MARRIED HER!   KG

                ----------
                From: Ted Palmer <tpalmer@...>
                To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com; Gary Gluyas <gluyas@...>
                Subject: Re: [Distillers] re-using yeast
                Date: Saturday, 5 May 2001 13:58

                if people need / want a quick ferment - then Turbo is the
                obvious answer.

                No its not. I have a yeast that can ferment to 17% with greater than 80%
                attenuation in less than 4 days at 75 degrees F. It has a slight h2so4 nose
                to it but it clears bright in 2 days and then you can't smell the h2so4.
                Esters and phenols are slight to none. No breadiness, sour or vegemite
                aromas from the yeast that has been stored for 2 weeks and its viability is
                94% after 34 generations. This yeast is a work horse!
                www.whitelabs.com/yeast_descriptions.htm#WLP001- California Ale Yeast
                This isn't the only one out there that is fantastic either.

                Turbo lasts one maybe three generations if you know how to care for it. It
                wasn't designed for use in beverage applications. It has nutritional needs
                that need constant attention. This yeast is twice as cranky as your wife
                during a full moon! Why use it? Because you always have? that's the only
                thing that the shop sells? because you think 23% alc. is going to be better
                tasting? The only reason to use it is to get to the magic number 23, and
                that my friend is not a very good reason to me.
                Really! Why do you keep using it? I used it a half dozen times and the
                flavor of the wash was awful. I can't even condone its use for fuel alcohol
                because of its difficult nature.
                Would you own a car that needs to be repaired every other day or would you
                get one that is reliable for years of hard driving?
                Hmm?
                _____________
                Ted Palmer
                tpalmer@...

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Gary Gluyas
                  To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com ; Ted Palmer
                  Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 5:19 PM
                  Subject: Re: [Distillers] re-using yeast


                  Ted

                  Just because you don't like Turbo's doesn't mean others shouldn't -
                  everyone is entitled to their opinion. 

                  We can all make up our minds as to what we like / prefer.

                  One of the reasons many people like the turbo's is because they provide a
                  quick ferment - if people need / want a quick ferment - then Turbo is the
                  obvious answer.

                  Each different yeast displays a different series of performance
                  characteristics - way too numerous to mention here.

                  I have tried most of the spirit yeasts available here in New Zealand, and
                  have drawn my own conclusions as to what I believe is the best performing
                  yeasts - but then you must quantify your specific requirements in a
                yeast,
                  namely:

                  RESULTING QUALITY OF DISTILLATE (TASTE & SMELL)
                  SPEED OF FERMENT
                  YIELD
                  etc etc

                  In my experience, one yeast will not be able to provide all the
                  characteristics you require or demand - and as with most things in life -
                  there is a trade off.  If you require more of one specific
                characteristic,
                  then it will perform less in another area.

                  Further thoughts . . .

                  Cheers

                  Kiwi Gary

                  ----------
                  From: Ted Palmer <tpalmer@...>
                  To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [Distillers] re-using yeast
                  Date: Saturday, 5 May 2001 11:17

                  Several more reasons not to use turbo.
                  _____________
                  Ted Palmer
                  tpalmer@...

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Ola Norrman
                    To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 3:22 PM
                    Subject: Re: [Distillers] re-using yeast


                    Turbo Yeast (a mixture of yeast and nutrients) - shall
                    never be reused. There are 2 main reasons for this:

                    1.  Yeast condition.
                    During the manufacture of dried yeast, very high
                    levels of phospholipids are accumulated within the
                    plasma membrane because the yeast is grown aerobically
                    (with oxygen).  The yeast population which exists at
                    the end of fermentation has depleted levels making
                    yeast cells more sensitive during subsequent
                    fermentations and fermentation more likely to stick.

                    So the yeast produce and accumulates lipids during its
                    growth in the yeast factory. Then, during anaerobic
                    fermentation (without oxygen) in the wash, each new
                    generation of yeast contains less and less lipids.
                    Lipids are needed for alcohol tolerance which make
                    this important to 14% Turbos and far more important to
                    18% Turbos. If to many generations have passed
                    (because of reuse of yeast or to little yeast to start
                    with) the yeast have low "lipid protection" and
                    alcohol tolerance decrease.

                    Dried yeast also contains typically 15% Trehalose
                    which is a "protectant sugar". It gives the yeast cell
                    internal strength and also is an excellent "start
                    sugar" for the yeast to use at the start of
                    fermentation.  Cells at the end of fermentation will
                    typically contain only 2 or 3% Trehalose. Trehalose
                    protect against the shock when the yeast are mixed in
                    the wash.

                    2.  Nutrient depletion
                    Not relevant for beer, partly relevant for wine but
                    totally relevant for Turbo.  So for Turbo, because the
                    sugar offers no nutritional value, re-using the yeast
                    a second time will result in a stuck.

                    Turbos also contains pH-buffer to give the yeast
                    perfect pH conditions. Nutrients not only work as
                    nutrients, they also keep the production of volatiles
                    down to a minimum. Nutrients are consumed by the
                    yeast. Re-use of a Good Turbo yeast will also result
                    in a lot more volatiles in the wash. pH-buffer will
                    not work in the second batch. There are other
                    ingredients making the CO2 leave faster, giving the
                    yeast cells something to claim to and move around in
                    the fermentation, assist clearing after fermentation
                    etc. Those functions will also be spoiled as they are
                    a part of the nutrients.

                      Nutrient composition are the manufacturers secrets.
                    One can not simply add some DAP
                    (diammoniumphosphate)or similar and expect it to work
                    the same. The first Turbo in the world was made in
                    Sweden. They are sold under the name Prestige and are
                    extremely good. At
                    http://www.turbo-yeast.com/intro.html
                    there is a lot of info about quality Turbos including
                    a "recipe" telling how "Bad Turbos" are made.

                    There is also info about yeast strains at:
                    http://www.lallemand.com/danstar-lalvin/lalvin.html
                    It is a bit surprising that they not have some never
                    information here, only old basics.

                    One could talk about genetic drift and bacterial risks
                    too, but it is not so important.

                    Kindest regards
                    Ola


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              • Grayson Stewart
                ... the ... water mix ... Thats all I do. Try to let the wash settle as much as possible to retain the maximum amount of yeast then add the new sugar water
                Message 7 of 20 , Jul 12, 2004
                • 0 Attachment
                  > I have a batch of 1118 about ready to cook, if I carefully decant
                  the
                  > liquid leaving the yeast cake, should I simply mix up the sugar
                  water mix
                  > and add and stir?

                  Thats all I do. Try to let the wash settle as much as possible to
                  retain the maximum amount of yeast then add the new sugar water
                  mix. Be sure and not add a sugar water mix that is too hot so it
                  won't harm the yeast.

                  I have read about adding tomatoe paste (or tomatoe
                  > sauce?) as a yeast nutrient. Is it paste or sauce?

                  I have always used tomato paste.

                  And what about the multi
                  > vitamin?

                  Several people say that the B vitamins are all that is really
                  required and anything else is a waste. This may be true, but a
                  store brand multi-vitamin has all the B vitamins and is the same
                  price. I leave a couple of the vitamins in an ounce or two of water
                  to dissolve then add at the same time I add the sugar water.
                • Harry
                  ... wrote: ... water ... Berocca tablets work well, 1 per 25 lt mash. Slainte! regards Harry
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jul 12, 2004
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Grayson Stewart"
                    <grayson_stewart66@y...> wrote:
                    <snip>
                    >
                    > Several people say that the B vitamins are all that is really
                    > required and anything else is a waste. This may be true, but a
                    > store brand multi-vitamin has all the B vitamins and is the same
                    > price. I leave a couple of the vitamins in an ounce or two of
                    water
                    > to dissolve then add at the same time I add the sugar water.



                    Berocca tablets work well, 1 per 25 lt mash.


                    Slainte!
                    regards Harry
                  • David
                    I have a batch of 1118 about ready to cook, if I carefully decant the liquid leaving the yeast cake, should I simply mix up the sugar water mix and add and
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jul 12, 2004
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I have a batch of 1118 about ready to cook, if I carefully decant the
                      liquid leaving the yeast cake, should I simply mix up the sugar water mix
                      and add and stir? I have read about adding tomatoe paste (or tomatoe
                      sauce?) as a yeast nutrient. Is it paste or sauce? And what about the multi
                      vitamin? I sure appreciate all you folks out there who are willing to share
                      their knowledge, (and humor.) Thanks, Dave
                    • Scott Petrinec
                      I usually leave just a tiny bit of liquid(just enough to cover the yeast cake, and then add my sugarwater(MAKE SURE IT IS COOLED DOWN TO ABOUT ROOM TEMPERATURE
                      Message 10 of 20 , Jul 12, 2004
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I usually leave just a tiny bit of liquid(just enough to cover the yeast cake, and then add my sugarwater(MAKE SURE IT IS COOLED DOWN TO ABOUT ROOM TEMPERATURE FIRST). And then I add 1 small can of tomatoe paste. Stirr it very well. A multi-vitamin wouldn't hurt either.(in addition to the tomatoe paste)(some people also add a couple tablespoons of lemon or lime juice for PH reasons, but I don't think it is necessary because the tomatoe paste has the needed acids,along with the needed nutrients).

                        David <maxtonnage@...> wrote:I have a batch of 1118 about ready to cook, if I carefully decant the
                        liquid leaving the yeast cake, should I simply mix up the sugar water mix
                        and add and stir? I have read about adding tomatoe paste (or tomatoe
                        sauce?) as a yeast nutrient. Is it paste or sauce? And what about the multi
                        vitamin? I sure appreciate all you folks out there who are willing to share
                        their knowledge, (and humor.) Thanks, Dave



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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Grayson Stewart
                        ... Not being familiar with the name Berocca, I had to do an internet search. Seems the key ingredients are the B and C vitamins. This made me wonder if using
                        Message 11 of 20 , Jul 12, 2004
                        • 0 Attachment
                          > Berocca tablets work well, 1 per 25 lt mash.

                          Not being familiar with the name Berocca, I had to do an internet
                          search. Seems the key ingredients are the B and C vitamins.

                          This made me wonder if using tums which are 60% calcium and a dose
                          of orange juice would work as well.
                        • Harry
                          ... Sorry Gray. Tums is for neutralising stomach acid. Berocca is a fast-acting B-vitamin dietary supplement. Here s the info... WHAT IS BEROCCA? Berocca is
                          Message 12 of 20 , Jul 12, 2004
                          • 0 Attachment
                            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Grayson Stewart"
                            <grayson_stewart66@y...> wrote:
                            >
                            > > Berocca tablets work well, 1 per 25 lt mash.
                            >
                            > Not being familiar with the name Berocca, I had to do an internet
                            > search. Seems the key ingredients are the B and C vitamins.
                            >
                            > This made me wonder if using tums which are 60% calcium and a dose
                            > of orange juice would work as well.


                            Sorry Gray. Tums is for neutralising stomach acid. Berocca is a
                            fast-acting B-vitamin dietary supplement. Here's the info...

                            WHAT IS BEROCCA?
                            Berocca is a very popular dietary supplement among people constantly
                            on the go. Especially after a big night out, this is just what the
                            body needs to replenish its temporary stores of the water-soluble B
                            & C group vitamins. Each effervescent Roche Berocca tablet contains
                            1000mg of vitamin C, which (studies have shown) boosts the stamina
                            of the human body's immune system by providing greater antiviral
                            immunity and lowering your susceptibility to allergic disease. Each
                            berocca tablet also contains seven different B group vitamins to
                            keep you moving and to give you energy.



                            BEROCCA - THE HANGOVER CURE THAT WORKS
                            Alcohol consumption and smoking, along with sleep deprivation, can
                            take a significant tole on your body. That doesn't by any means mean
                            you shouldn't be doing it, but when you do, treat yourself to a
                            Berocca. Take one before you go out, and one when you're going to
                            bed. Berocca will replace the materials your body needs in order to
                            repair itself. Coupled with ginseng, Berocca will give you a major
                            energy boost for a long day ahead, which is great if you have only
                            had a few hours sleep.



                            EACH BEROCCA TABLET CONTAINS:

                            ---------------------------------------------------------------------
                            -----------
                            Thiamine nitrate (Vitamin B1)............................ 20.5mg
                            Riboflavine sodium phosphate
                            ___ (equivalent to 15mg Riboflavine (Vitamin B2))........ 50mg
                            Nicotinamide............................................. 25mg
                            Calcium pantothenate
                            ___ (equivalent to 23mg Pantothenic acid (Vitamin B5))... 10mg
                            Pyridoxine hydrochloride (Vitamin B6).................... 10mcg
                            Cyanocobalamin (Vitamin B12)............................. 150mcg
                            Biotin (Vitamin H)....................................... 1000mg
                            Ascorbic acid (Vitamin C)................................ 65mg
                            Calcium (as Calcium pantothenate and Calcium carbonate).. 15mg

                            Contains sucrose, equivalent to 8.9kJ

                            Contains sodium chloride.
                            -----------------------------------------------------------------
                            Each Berocca tablet contains 285mg of sodium, which should be taken
                            into account by those on a low sodium diet. Vitamins can only be of
                            assistance if the dietary vitamin intake is inadequate.



                            Slainte!
                            regards Harry
                          • Maxime Belair
                            What amount of tomato paste should be added for 20L of sugar wash? Does it removes the need to add DAP and other nutrients? Thank you, Maxime Belair
                            Message 13 of 20 , Jul 12, 2004
                            • 0 Attachment
                              What amount of tomato paste should be added for 20L of
                              sugar wash?

                              Does it removes the need to add DAP and other
                              nutrients?

                              Thank you,

                              Maxime Belair

                              __________________________________________________________
                              Lèche-vitrine ou lèche-écran ?
                              magasinage.yahoo.ca
                            • Scott Petrinec
                              I use one small can (6 oz) for a 20L wash. It contains VitaminA , VitaminC , Iron, Proteins, And acids. I use sugar, tomatoe paste and 2 tablespoons lemon
                              Message 14 of 20 , Jul 13, 2004
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                                I use one small can (6 oz) for a 20L wash.
                                It contains VitaminA , VitaminC , Iron, Proteins, And acids.
                                I use sugar, tomatoe paste and 2 tablespoons lemon juice.

                                Maxime Belair <maxime_belair@...> wrote:
                                What amount of tomato paste should be added for 20L of
                                sugar wash?

                                Does it removes the need to add DAP and other
                                nutrients?

                                Thank you,

                                Maxime Belair

                                __________________________________________________________
                                L�che-vitrine ou l�che-�cran ?
                                magasinage.yahoo.ca


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                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Maxime Belair
                                Wow! Only this and it works ? How much sugar do you use and how much time does it takes to ferment and with what yeast? If I could only use tomato paste as a
                                Message 15 of 20 , Jul 13, 2004
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                                  Wow! Only this and it works ?
                                  How much sugar do you use and how much time does it
                                  takes to ferment and with what yeast?

                                  If I could only use tomato paste as a nutrient it
                                  would cost me much less.

                                  Thank you,

                                  Maxime Belair
                                  =====
                                  I use one small can (6 oz) for a 20L wash.
                                  > It contains VitaminA , VitaminC , Iron, Proteins,
                                  > And acids.
                                  > I use sugar, tomatoe paste and 2 tablespoons lemon
                                  > juice.


                                  __________________________________________________________
                                  Lèche-vitrine ou lèche-écran ?
                                  magasinage.yahoo.ca
                                • Scott Petrinec
                                  I use 15lbs sugar, 1 can(6oz) of paste, 2 tablespoons lemon juice. I have used many different yeasts, the one I use most is Red Star champagne yeast, 5 -5gram
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Jul 13, 2004
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                                    I use 15lbs sugar, 1 can(6oz) of paste, 2 tablespoons lemon juice.
                                    I have used many different yeasts, the one I use most is Red Star champagne yeast, 5 -5gram satchets.(I buy it from www.grapestompers.com ) BUT...just about any baker's yeast or turbo works well too.
                                    It usually ferments out in 1-2 weeks (depending on conditions). I usually get a 15-18%abv .

                                    Maxime Belair <maxime_belair@...> wrote:
                                    Wow! Only this and it works ?
                                    How much sugar do you use and how much time does it
                                    takes to ferment and with what yeast?

                                    If I could only use tomato paste as a nutrient it
                                    would cost me much less.

                                    Thank you,

                                    Maxime Belair
                                    =====
                                    I use one small can (6 oz) for a 20L wash.
                                    > It contains VitaminA , VitaminC , Iron, Proteins,
                                    > And acids.
                                    > I use sugar, tomatoe paste and 2 tablespoons lemon
                                    > juice.


                                    __________________________________________________________
                                    L�che-vitrine ou l�che-�cran ?
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                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Maxime Belair
                                    Thanks, I ll try this again with the tomato paste. My first wash used tomato paste + fermaid and didn t ferment in a short time. I took months to get to 12%
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Jul 13, 2004
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                                      Thanks, I'll try this again with the tomato paste. My
                                      first wash used tomato paste + fermaid and didn't
                                      ferment in a short time. I took months to get to 12%
                                      !

                                      Now I made a new recipe using a part of brown sugar in
                                      the white sugar wash. It ferments at 1% per day but
                                      when it reach about 10% it started to make only .5%
                                      per day and it is still fermenting now.

                                      Also in this recipe I added 1tsp of fermaid (yeast
                                      nutrient) / 4 liters.

                                      I don't know why it does not work faster...

                                      Maybe it's because I didn't start with enough yeast.
                                      10gr/40L

                                      Thanks,

                                      Maxime Belair

                                      ====
                                      I use 15lbs sugar, 1 can(6oz) of paste, 2
                                      > tablespoons lemon juice.
                                      > I have used many different yeasts, the one I use
                                      > most is Red Star champagne yeast, 5 -5gram
                                      > satchets.(I buy it from www.grapestompers.com )
                                      > BUT...just about any baker's yeast or turbo works
                                      > well too.
                                      > It usually ferments out in 1-2 weeks (depending on
                                      > conditions). I usually get a 15-18%abv .


                                      __________________________________________________________
                                      Lèche-vitrine ou lèche-écran ?
                                      magasinage.yahoo.ca
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