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re-using yeast

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  • Thomas Hart
    Ted passed on a few suggestions on ways shop owners could encourage more business and asked for others to offer suggestions. One idea I have, and it is
    Message 1 of 20 , May 3 11:05 AM
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      Ted passed on a few suggestions on ways shop owners could encourage more
      business and asked for others to offer suggestions. One idea I have, and it
      is related to yeast, is to bring in some of the various distillers yeasts
      that are out there. I know that both Wyeast and White Labs have a few
      strains of yeast in their banks that are not regularly distributed but can
      be cultured up on special request. These include some yeasts from a couple
      bourbon distilleries. While I can get them directly, I would be happy to
      purchase them from or go through a local shop if they offered.

      I have always appreciated the shops that seek to encourage experimentation
      and curiosity. For example, for a while I cultured my own yeasts, it was
      part of my progression through the hobby of brewing, and while it could have
      been seen as a threat to his business, a local shop owner helped me get the
      information and equipment I needed to accomplish this, even going as far as
      referring me to another store to buy things he did not have. Because of his
      help I have remained a loyal customer for 12 years.

      I have taught all-grain brewing and advanced brewing techniques through a
      local University and have received great support from this same local shop,
      including discounts for students and free instructional material. This has
      fostered great loyalty and the ripple effects have paid off for the shop.
      The other shop took a very cold position and actually went as far as
      discouraging customers from attending courses. He had the same posture
      related to a couple local clubs, and now is out of business.

      I suppose the reality is that given our access to information and
      ingredients through sources like the web a shop has to be aggressive in
      serving the needs of their customers as opposed to the other way around. If
      I have the opportunity I will spend a little extra to support a local
      business, but my real loyalty is to my hobby and if I can't get what I want
      locally, I will go some place else.

      Peace- Tom
      the Stillpastor
    • Ola Norrman
      Turbo Yeast (a mixture of yeast and nutrients) - shall never be reused. There are 2 main reasons for this: 1. Yeast condition. During the manufacture of dried
      Message 2 of 20 , May 4 3:22 PM
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        Turbo Yeast (a mixture of yeast and nutrients) - shall
        never be reused. There are 2 main reasons for this:

        1. Yeast condition.
        During the manufacture of dried yeast, very high
        levels of phospholipids are accumulated within the
        plasma membrane because the yeast is grown aerobically
        (with oxygen). The yeast population which exists at
        the end of fermentation has depleted levels making
        yeast cells more sensitive during subsequent
        fermentations and fermentation more likely to stick.

        So the yeast produce and accumulates lipids during its
        growth in the yeast factory. Then, during anaerobic
        fermentation (without oxygen) in the wash, each new
        generation of yeast contains less and less lipids.
        Lipids are needed for alcohol tolerance which make
        this important to 14% Turbos and far more important to
        18% Turbos. If to many generations have passed
        (because of reuse of yeast or to little yeast to start
        with) the yeast have low "lipid protection" and
        alcohol tolerance decrease.

        Dried yeast also contains typically 15% Trehalose
        which is a "protectant sugar". It gives the yeast cell
        internal strength and also is an excellent "start
        sugar" for the yeast to use at the start of
        fermentation. Cells at the end of fermentation will
        typically contain only 2 or 3% Trehalose. Trehalose
        protect against the shock when the yeast are mixed in
        the wash.

        2. Nutrient depletion
        Not relevant for beer, partly relevant for wine but
        totally relevant for Turbo. So for Turbo, because the
        sugar offers no nutritional value, re-using the yeast
        a second time will result in a stuck.

        Turbos also contains pH-buffer to give the yeast
        perfect pH conditions. Nutrients not only work as
        nutrients, they also keep the production of volatiles
        down to a minimum. Nutrients are consumed by the
        yeast. Re-use of a Good Turbo yeast will also result
        in a lot more volatiles in the wash. pH-buffer will
        not work in the second batch. There are other
        ingredients making the CO2 leave faster, giving the
        yeast cells something to claim to and move around in
        the fermentation, assist clearing after fermentation
        etc. Those functions will also be spoiled as they are
        a part of the nutrients.

        Nutrient composition are the manufacturers secrets.
        One can not simply add some DAP
        (diammoniumphosphate)or similar and expect it to work
        the same. The first Turbo in the world was made in
        Sweden. They are sold under the name Prestige and are
        extremely good. At
        http://www.turbo-yeast.com/intro.html
        there is a lot of info about quality Turbos including
        a "recipe" telling how "Bad Turbos" are made.

        There is also info about yeast strains at:
        http://www.lallemand.com/danstar-lalvin/lalvin.html
        It is a bit surprising that they not have some never
        information here, only old basics.

        One could talk about genetic drift and bacterial risks
        too, but it is not so important.

        Kindest regards
        Ola


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      • Ted Palmer
        Several more reasons not to use turbo. _____________ Ted Palmer tpalmer@oz.net ... From: Ola Norrman To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001
        Message 3 of 20 , May 4 4:17 PM
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          Several more reasons not to use turbo.
          _____________
          Ted Palmer
          tpalmer@...
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 3:22 PM
          Subject: Re: [Distillers] re-using yeast

          Turbo Yeast (a mixture of yeast and nutrients) - shall
          never be reused. There are 2 main reasons for this:

          1.  Yeast condition.
          During the manufacture of dried yeast, very high
          levels of phospholipids are accumulated within the
          plasma membrane because the yeast is grown aerobically
          (with oxygen).  The yeast population which exists at
          the end of fermentation has depleted levels making
          yeast cells more sensitive during subsequent
          fermentations and fermentation more likely to stick.

          So the yeast produce and accumulates lipids during its
          growth in the yeast factory. Then, during anaerobic
          fermentation (without oxygen) in the wash, each new
          generation of yeast contains less and less lipids.
          Lipids are needed for alcohol tolerance which make
          this important to 14% Turbos and far more important to
          18% Turbos. If to many generations have passed
          (because of reuse of yeast or to little yeast to start
          with) the yeast have low "lipid protection" and
          alcohol tolerance decrease.

          Dried yeast also contains typically 15% Trehalose
          which is a "protectant sugar". It gives the yeast cell
          internal strength and also is an excellent "start
          sugar" for the yeast to use at the start of
          fermentation.  Cells at the end of fermentation will
          typically contain only 2 or 3% Trehalose. Trehalose
          protect against the shock when the yeast are mixed in
          the wash.

          2.  Nutrient depletion
          Not relevant for beer, partly relevant for wine but
          totally relevant for Turbo.  So for Turbo, because the
          sugar offers no nutritional value, re-using the yeast
          a second time will result in a stuck.

          Turbos also contains pH-buffer to give the yeast
          perfect pH conditions. Nutrients not only work as
          nutrients, they also keep the production of volatiles
          down to a minimum. Nutrients are consumed by the
          yeast. Re-use of a Good Turbo yeast will also result
          in a lot more volatiles in the wash. pH-buffer will
          not work in the second batch. There are other
          ingredients making the CO2 leave faster, giving the
          yeast cells something to claim to and move around in
          the fermentation, assist clearing after fermentation
          etc. Those functions will also be spoiled as they are
          a part of the nutrients.

            Nutrient composition are the manufacturers secrets.
          One can not simply add some DAP
          (diammoniumphosphate)or similar and expect it to work
          the same. The first Turbo in the world was made in
          Sweden. They are sold under the name Prestige and are
          extremely good. At
          http://www.turbo-yeast.com/intro.html
          there is a lot of info about quality Turbos including
          a "recipe" telling how "Bad Turbos" are made.

          There is also info about yeast strains at:
          http://www.lallemand.com/danstar-lalvin/lalvin.html
          It is a bit surprising that they not have some never
          information here, only old basics.

          One could talk about genetic drift and bacterial risks
          too, but it is not so important.

          Kindest regards
          Ola


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        • Gary Gluyas
          Hello All I have read all the posts, and have still not changed my mind - I will not be re-using yeast. As they say . . . I rest my case! Cheers Kiwi Gary
          Message 4 of 20 , May 4 5:06 PM
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            Hello All

            I have read all the posts, and have still not changed my mind - I will not
            be re-using yeast.

            As they say . . . I rest my case!

            Cheers

            Kiwi Gary
            gluyas @...

            ----------
            From: Ted Palmer <tpalmer@...>
            To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [Distillers] re-using yeast
            Date: Saturday, 5 May 2001 11:17

            Several more reasons not to use turbo.
            _____________
            Ted Palmer
            tpalmer@...

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Ola Norrman
            To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 3:22 PM
            Subject: Re: [Distillers] re-using yeast


            Turbo Yeast (a mixture of yeast and nutrients) - shall
            never be reused. There are 2 main reasons for this:

            1. Yeast condition.
            During the manufacture of dried yeast, very high
            levels of phospholipids are accumulated within the
            plasma membrane because the yeast is grown aerobically
            (with oxygen). The yeast population which exists at
            the end of fermentation has depleted levels making
            yeast cells more sensitive during subsequent
            fermentations and fermentation more likely to stick.

            So the yeast produce and accumulates lipids during its
            growth in the yeast factory. Then, during anaerobic
            fermentation (without oxygen) in the wash, each new
            generation of yeast contains less and less lipids.
            Lipids are needed for alcohol tolerance which make
            this important to 14% Turbos and far more important to
            18% Turbos. If to many generations have passed
            (because of reuse of yeast or to little yeast to start
            with) the yeast have low "lipid protection" and
            alcohol tolerance decrease.

            Dried yeast also contains typically 15% Trehalose
            which is a "protectant sugar". It gives the yeast cell
            internal strength and also is an excellent "start
            sugar" for the yeast to use at the start of
            fermentation. Cells at the end of fermentation will
            typically contain only 2 or 3% Trehalose. Trehalose
            protect against the shock when the yeast are mixed in
            the wash.

            2. Nutrient depletion
            Not relevant for beer, partly relevant for wine but
            totally relevant for Turbo. So for Turbo, because the
            sugar offers no nutritional value, re-using the yeast
            a second time will result in a stuck.

            Turbos also contains pH-buffer to give the yeast
            perfect pH conditions. Nutrients not only work as
            nutrients, they also keep the production of volatiles
            down to a minimum. Nutrients are consumed by the
            yeast. Re-use of a Good Turbo yeast will also result
            in a lot more volatiles in the wash. pH-buffer will
            not work in the second batch. There are other
            ingredients making the CO2 leave faster, giving the
            yeast cells something to claim to and move around in
            the fermentation, assist clearing after fermentation
            etc. Those functions will also be spoiled as they are
            a part of the nutrients.

            Nutrient composition are the manufacturers secrets.
            One can not simply add some DAP
            (diammoniumphosphate)or similar and expect it to work
            the same. The first Turbo in the world was made in
            Sweden. They are sold under the name Prestige and are
            extremely good. At
            http://www.turbo-yeast.com/intro.html
            there is a lot of info about quality Turbos including
            a "recipe" telling how "Bad Turbos" are made.

            There is also info about yeast strains at:
            http://www.lallemand.com/danstar-lalvin/lalvin.html
            It is a bit surprising that they not have some never
            information here, only old basics.

            One could talk about genetic drift and bacterial risks
            too, but it is not so important.

            Kindest regards
            Ola


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          • Gary Gluyas
            Ted Just because you don t like Turbo s doesn t mean others shouldn t - everyone is entitled to their opinion. We can all make up our minds as to what we like
            Message 5 of 20 , May 4 5:19 PM
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              Ted

              Just because you don't like Turbo's doesn't mean others shouldn't -
              everyone is entitled to their opinion.

              We can all make up our minds as to what we like / prefer.

              One of the reasons many people like the turbo's is because they provide a
              quick ferment - if people need / want a quick ferment - then Turbo is the
              obvious answer.

              Each different yeast displays a different series of performance
              characteristics - way too numerous to mention here.

              I have tried most of the spirit yeasts available here in New Zealand, and
              have drawn my own conclusions as to what I believe is the best performing
              yeasts - but then you must quantify your specific requirements in a yeast,
              namely:

              RESULTING QUALITY OF DISTILLATE (TASTE & SMELL)
              SPEED OF FERMENT
              YIELD
              etc etc

              In my experience, one yeast will not be able to provide all the
              characteristics you require or demand - and as with most things in life -
              there is a trade off. If you require more of one specific characteristic,
              then it will perform less in another area.

              Further thoughts . . .

              Cheers

              Kiwi Gary

              ----------
              From: Ted Palmer <tpalmer@...>
              To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [Distillers] re-using yeast
              Date: Saturday, 5 May 2001 11:17

              Several more reasons not to use turbo.
              _____________
              Ted Palmer
              tpalmer@...

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Ola Norrman
              To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 3:22 PM
              Subject: Re: [Distillers] re-using yeast


              Turbo Yeast (a mixture of yeast and nutrients) - shall
              never be reused. There are 2 main reasons for this:

              1. Yeast condition.
              During the manufacture of dried yeast, very high
              levels of phospholipids are accumulated within the
              plasma membrane because the yeast is grown aerobically
              (with oxygen). The yeast population which exists at
              the end of fermentation has depleted levels making
              yeast cells more sensitive during subsequent
              fermentations and fermentation more likely to stick.

              So the yeast produce and accumulates lipids during its
              growth in the yeast factory. Then, during anaerobic
              fermentation (without oxygen) in the wash, each new
              generation of yeast contains less and less lipids.
              Lipids are needed for alcohol tolerance which make
              this important to 14% Turbos and far more important to
              18% Turbos. If to many generations have passed
              (because of reuse of yeast or to little yeast to start
              with) the yeast have low "lipid protection" and
              alcohol tolerance decrease.

              Dried yeast also contains typically 15% Trehalose
              which is a "protectant sugar". It gives the yeast cell
              internal strength and also is an excellent "start
              sugar" for the yeast to use at the start of
              fermentation. Cells at the end of fermentation will
              typically contain only 2 or 3% Trehalose. Trehalose
              protect against the shock when the yeast are mixed in
              the wash.

              2. Nutrient depletion
              Not relevant for beer, partly relevant for wine but
              totally relevant for Turbo. So for Turbo, because the
              sugar offers no nutritional value, re-using the yeast
              a second time will result in a stuck.

              Turbos also contains pH-buffer to give the yeast
              perfect pH conditions. Nutrients not only work as
              nutrients, they also keep the production of volatiles
              down to a minimum. Nutrients are consumed by the
              yeast. Re-use of a Good Turbo yeast will also result
              in a lot more volatiles in the wash. pH-buffer will
              not work in the second batch. There are other
              ingredients making the CO2 leave faster, giving the
              yeast cells something to claim to and move around in
              the fermentation, assist clearing after fermentation
              etc. Those functions will also be spoiled as they are
              a part of the nutrients.

              Nutrient composition are the manufacturers secrets.
              One can not simply add some DAP
              (diammoniumphosphate)or similar and expect it to work
              the same. The first Turbo in the world was made in
              Sweden. They are sold under the name Prestige and are
              extremely good. At
              http://www.turbo-yeast.com/intro.html
              there is a lot of info about quality Turbos including
              a "recipe" telling how "Bad Turbos" are made.

              There is also info about yeast strains at:
              http://www.lallemand.com/danstar-lalvin/lalvin.html
              It is a bit surprising that they not have some never
              information here, only old basics.

              One could talk about genetic drift and bacterial risks
              too, but it is not so important.

              Kindest regards
              Ola


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            • Ted Palmer
              if people need / want a quick ferment - then Turbo is the obvious answer. No its not. I have a yeast that can ferment to 17% with greater than 80% attenuation
              Message 6 of 20 , May 4 6:58 PM
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                if people need / want a quick ferment - then Turbo is the
                obvious answer.

                No its not. I have a yeast that can ferment to 17% with greater than 80% attenuation in less than 4 days at 75 degrees F. It has a slight h2so4 nose to it but it clears bright in 2 days and then you can't smell the h2so4. Esters and phenols are slight to none. No breadiness, sour or vegemite aromas from the yeast that has been stored for 2 weeks and its viability is 94% after 34 generations. This yeast is a work horse!  www.whitelabs.com/yeast_descriptions.htm#WLP001- California Ale Yeast
                This isn't the only one out there that is fantastic either.
                 
                Turbo lasts one maybe three generations if you know how to care for it. It wasn't designed for use in beverage applications. It has nutritional needs that need constant attention. This yeast is twice as cranky as your wife during a full moon! Why use it? Because you always have? that's the only thing that the shop sells? because you think 23% alc. is going to be better tasting? The only reason to use it is to get to the magic number 23, and that my friend is not a very good reason to me.
                Really! Why do you keep using it? I used it a half dozen times and the flavor of the wash was awful. I can't even condone its use for fuel alcohol because of its difficult nature.
                Would you own a car that needs to be repaired every other day or would you get one that is reliable for years of hard driving?
                Hmm?
                _____________
                Ted Palmer
                tpalmer@...
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 5:19 PM
                Subject: Re: [Distillers] re-using yeast

                Ted

                Just because you don't like Turbo's doesn't mean others shouldn't -
                everyone is entitled to their opinion. 

                We can all make up our minds as to what we like / prefer.

                One of the reasons many people like the turbo's is because they provide a
                quick ferment - if people need / want a quick ferment - then Turbo is the
                obvious answer.

                Each different yeast displays a different series of performance
                characteristics - way too numerous to mention here.

                I have tried most of the spirit yeasts available here in New Zealand, and
                have drawn my own conclusions as to what I believe is the best performing
                yeasts - but then you must quantify your specific requirements in a yeast,
                namely:

                RESULTING QUALITY OF DISTILLATE (TASTE & SMELL)
                SPEED OF FERMENT
                YIELD
                etc etc

                In my experience, one yeast will not be able to provide all the
                characteristics you require or demand - and as with most things in life -
                there is a trade off.  If you require more of one specific characteristic,
                then it will perform less in another area.

                Further thoughts . . .

                Cheers

                Kiwi Gary

                ----------
                From: Ted Palmer <tpalmer@...>
                To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [Distillers] re-using yeast
                Date: Saturday, 5 May 2001 11:17

                Several more reasons not to use turbo.
                _____________
                Ted Palmer
                tpalmer@...

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Ola Norrman
                  To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 3:22 PM
                  Subject: Re: [Distillers] re-using yeast


                  Turbo Yeast (a mixture of yeast and nutrients) - shall
                  never be reused. There are 2 main reasons for this:

                  1.  Yeast condition.
                  During the manufacture of dried yeast, very high
                  levels of phospholipids are accumulated within the
                  plasma membrane because the yeast is grown aerobically
                  (with oxygen).  The yeast population which exists at
                  the end of fermentation has depleted levels making
                  yeast cells more sensitive during subsequent
                  fermentations and fermentation more likely to stick.

                  So the yeast produce and accumulates lipids during its
                  growth in the yeast factory. Then, during anaerobic
                  fermentation (without oxygen) in the wash, each new
                  generation of yeast contains less and less lipids.
                  Lipids are needed for alcohol tolerance which make
                  this important to 14% Turbos and far more important to
                  18% Turbos. If to many generations have passed
                  (because of reuse of yeast or to little yeast to start
                  with) the yeast have low "lipid protection" and
                  alcohol tolerance decrease.

                  Dried yeast also contains typically 15% Trehalose
                  which is a "protectant sugar". It gives the yeast cell
                  internal strength and also is an excellent "start
                  sugar" for the yeast to use at the start of
                  fermentation.  Cells at the end of fermentation will
                  typically contain only 2 or 3% Trehalose. Trehalose
                  protect against the shock when the yeast are mixed in
                  the wash.

                  2.  Nutrient depletion
                  Not relevant for beer, partly relevant for wine but
                  totally relevant for Turbo.  So for Turbo, because the
                  sugar offers no nutritional value, re-using the yeast
                  a second time will result in a stuck.

                  Turbos also contains pH-buffer to give the yeast
                  perfect pH conditions. Nutrients not only work as
                  nutrients, they also keep the production of volatiles
                  down to a minimum. Nutrients are consumed by the
                  yeast. Re-use of a Good Turbo yeast will also result
                  in a lot more volatiles in the wash. pH-buffer will
                  not work in the second batch. There are other
                  ingredients making the CO2 leave faster, giving the
                  yeast cells something to claim to and move around in
                  the fermentation, assist clearing after fermentation
                  etc. Those functions will also be spoiled as they are
                  a part of the nutrients.

                    Nutrient composition are the manufacturers secrets.
                  One can not simply add some DAP
                  (diammoniumphosphate)or similar and expect it to work
                  the same. The first Turbo in the world was made in
                  Sweden. They are sold under the name Prestige and are
                  extremely good. At
                  http://www.turbo-yeast.com/intro.html
                  there is a lot of info about quality Turbos including
                  a "recipe" telling how "Bad Turbos" are made.

                  There is also info about yeast strains at:
                  http://www.lallemand.com/danstar-lalvin/lalvin.html
                  It is a bit surprising that they not have some never
                  information here, only old basics.

                  One could talk about genetic drift and bacterial risks
                  too, but it is not so important.

                  Kindest regards
                  Ola


                  __________________________________________________
                  Do You Yahoo!?
                  Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
                  http://auctions.yahoo.com/

                        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                      
                      

                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




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              • Gary Gluyas
                Ted, and others I do not always use a turbo yeast - I am trialling several others also, and have a large number of yeast available for sale and use. I may use
                Message 7 of 20 , May 4 8:08 PM
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                  Ted, and others

                  I do not always use a turbo yeast - I am trialling several others also, and
                  have a large number of yeast available for sale and use.

                  I may use yeast for variety of reasons, which I have already touched on.
                  Lately I have been using a yeast that is much slower fermenting than a
                  turbo, but results in a superb wash and distillate flavour! Even then I
                  wouldn't drink a glass full of it! No way!

                  It appears Turbo's were simply not designed to be re-used at all, along
                  with many of the other high alcohol yeasts designed for beverage
                  consumption.

                  As you seem to have fairly strong views on this subject, and basically
                  whitewash everyone else's ideas, I was just wondering what qualifications
                  and experience you may have in this field to back up your claims.

                  Just for the record, I do not have any qualifications at all, and simply
                  draw on my own personal experiences to date with relation to taste, yield,
                  and speed of ferment etc etc.

                  Cheers

                  Kiwi Gary
                  gluyas@...

                  PS. Also for the record: my wife is cranky ALL of the time, not just
                  during a full moon! THAT IS WHY I MARRIED HER! KG

                  ----------
                  From: Ted Palmer <tpalmer@...>
                  To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com; Gary Gluyas <gluyas@...>
                  Subject: Re: [Distillers] re-using yeast
                  Date: Saturday, 5 May 2001 13:58

                  if people need / want a quick ferment - then Turbo is the
                  obvious answer.

                  No its not. I have a yeast that can ferment to 17% with greater than 80%
                  attenuation in less than 4 days at 75 degrees F. It has a slight h2so4 nose
                  to it but it clears bright in 2 days and then you can't smell the h2so4.
                  Esters and phenols are slight to none. No breadiness, sour or vegemite
                  aromas from the yeast that has been stored for 2 weeks and its viability is
                  94% after 34 generations. This yeast is a work horse!
                  www.whitelabs.com/yeast_descriptions.htm#WLP001- California Ale Yeast
                  This isn't the only one out there that is fantastic either.

                  Turbo lasts one maybe three generations if you know how to care for it. It
                  wasn't designed for use in beverage applications. It has nutritional needs
                  that need constant attention. This yeast is twice as cranky as your wife
                  during a full moon! Why use it? Because you always have? that's the only
                  thing that the shop sells? because you think 23% alc. is going to be better
                  tasting? The only reason to use it is to get to the magic number 23, and
                  that my friend is not a very good reason to me.
                  Really! Why do you keep using it? I used it a half dozen times and the
                  flavor of the wash was awful. I can't even condone its use for fuel alcohol
                  because of its difficult nature.
                  Would you own a car that needs to be repaired every other day or would you
                  get one that is reliable for years of hard driving?
                  Hmm?
                  _____________
                  Ted Palmer
                  tpalmer@...

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Gary Gluyas
                  To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com ; Ted Palmer
                  Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 5:19 PM
                  Subject: Re: [Distillers] re-using yeast


                  Ted

                  Just because you don't like Turbo's doesn't mean others shouldn't -
                  everyone is entitled to their opinion.

                  We can all make up our minds as to what we like / prefer.

                  One of the reasons many people like the turbo's is because they provide a
                  quick ferment - if people need / want a quick ferment - then Turbo is the
                  obvious answer.

                  Each different yeast displays a different series of performance
                  characteristics - way too numerous to mention here.

                  I have tried most of the spirit yeasts available here in New Zealand, and
                  have drawn my own conclusions as to what I believe is the best performing
                  yeasts - but then you must quantify your specific requirements in a
                  yeast,
                  namely:

                  RESULTING QUALITY OF DISTILLATE (TASTE & SMELL)
                  SPEED OF FERMENT
                  YIELD
                  etc etc

                  In my experience, one yeast will not be able to provide all the
                  characteristics you require or demand - and as with most things in life -
                  there is a trade off. If you require more of one specific
                  characteristic,
                  then it will perform less in another area.

                  Further thoughts . . .

                  Cheers

                  Kiwi Gary

                  ----------
                  From: Ted Palmer <tpalmer@...>
                  To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [Distillers] re-using yeast
                  Date: Saturday, 5 May 2001 11:17

                  Several more reasons not to use turbo.
                  _____________
                  Ted Palmer
                  tpalmer@...

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Ola Norrman
                  To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 3:22 PM
                  Subject: Re: [Distillers] re-using yeast


                  Turbo Yeast (a mixture of yeast and nutrients) - shall
                  never be reused. There are 2 main reasons for this:

                  1. Yeast condition.
                  During the manufacture of dried yeast, very high
                  levels of phospholipids are accumulated within the
                  plasma membrane because the yeast is grown aerobically
                  (with oxygen). The yeast population which exists at
                  the end of fermentation has depleted levels making
                  yeast cells more sensitive during subsequent
                  fermentations and fermentation more likely to stick.

                  So the yeast produce and accumulates lipids during its
                  growth in the yeast factory. Then, during anaerobic
                  fermentation (without oxygen) in the wash, each new
                  generation of yeast contains less and less lipids.
                  Lipids are needed for alcohol tolerance which make
                  this important to 14% Turbos and far more important to
                  18% Turbos. If to many generations have passed
                  (because of reuse of yeast or to little yeast to start
                  with) the yeast have low "lipid protection" and
                  alcohol tolerance decrease.

                  Dried yeast also contains typically 15% Trehalose
                  which is a "protectant sugar". It gives the yeast cell
                  internal strength and also is an excellent "start
                  sugar" for the yeast to use at the start of
                  fermentation. Cells at the end of fermentation will
                  typically contain only 2 or 3% Trehalose. Trehalose
                  protect against the shock when the yeast are mixed in
                  the wash.

                  2. Nutrient depletion
                  Not relevant for beer, partly relevant for wine but
                  totally relevant for Turbo. So for Turbo, because the
                  sugar offers no nutritional value, re-using the yeast
                  a second time will result in a stuck.

                  Turbos also contains pH-buffer to give the yeast
                  perfect pH conditions. Nutrients not only work as
                  nutrients, they also keep the production of volatiles
                  down to a minimum. Nutrients are consumed by the
                  yeast. Re-use of a Good Turbo yeast will also result
                  in a lot more volatiles in the wash. pH-buffer will
                  not work in the second batch. There are other
                  ingredients making the CO2 leave faster, giving the
                  yeast cells something to claim to and move around in
                  the fermentation, assist clearing after fermentation
                  etc. Those functions will also be spoiled as they are
                  a part of the nutrients.

                  Nutrient composition are the manufacturers secrets.
                  One can not simply add some DAP
                  (diammoniumphosphate)or similar and expect it to work
                  the same. The first Turbo in the world was made in
                  Sweden. They are sold under the name Prestige and are
                  extremely good. At
                  http://www.turbo-yeast.com/intro.html
                  there is a lot of info about quality Turbos including
                  a "recipe" telling how "Bad Turbos" are made.

                  There is also info about yeast strains at:
                  http://www.lallemand.com/danstar-lalvin/lalvin.html
                  It is a bit surprising that they not have some never
                  information here, only old basics.

                  One could talk about genetic drift and bacterial risks
                  too, but it is not so important.

                  Kindest regards
                  Ola


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                • G&N
                  Ted....... your postings,they are all counter productive as you only say how good reusing yeast is and how bad the Turbos are.. No description on exactly what
                  Message 8 of 20 , May 4 10:01 PM
                  • 0 Attachment

                    Ted....... your postings,they are all counter productive as
                    you only say how good reusing yeast is and how bad the Turbos are.. No
                    description on exactly what sort of yeast to use .....ingredient or the
                    like ...it is getting very frustrating for the average distiller ..well me
                    anyways.
                     
                    Glenn
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 9:58 AM
                    Subject: Re: [Distillers] re-using yeast

                    if people need / want a quick ferment - then Turbo is the
                    obvious answer.

                    No its not. I have a yeast that can ferment to 17% with greater than 80% attenuation in less than 4 days at 75 degrees F. It has a slight h2so4 nose to it but it clears bright in 2 days and then you can't smell the h2so4. Esters and phenols are slight to none. No breadiness, sour or vegemite aromas from the yeast that has been stored for 2 weeks and its viability is 94% after 34 generations. This yeast is a work horse!  www.whitelabs.com/yeast_descriptions.htm#WLP001- California Ale Yeast
                    This isn't the only one out there that is fantastic either.
                     
                    Turbo lasts one maybe three generations if you know how to care for it. It wasn't designed for use in beverage applications. It has nutritional needs that need constant attention. This yeast is twice as cranky as your wife during a full moon! Why use it? Because you always have? that's the only thing that the shop sells? because you think 23% alc. is going to be better tasting? The only reason to use it is to get to the magic number 23, and that my friend is not a very good reason to me.
                    Really! Why do you keep using it? I used it a half dozen times and the flavor of the wash was awful. I can't even condone its use for fuel alcohol because of its difficult nature.
                    Would you own a car that needs to be repaired every other day or would you get one that is reliable for years of hard driving?
                    Hmm?
                    _____________
                    Ted Palmer
                    tpalmer@...
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 5:19 PM
                    Subject: Re: [Distillers] re-using yeast

                    Ted

                    Just because you don't like Turbo's doesn't mean others shouldn't -
                    everyone is entitled to their opinion. 

                    We can all make up our minds as to what we like / prefer.

                    One of the reasons many people like the turbo's is because they provide a
                    quick ferment - if people need / want a quick ferment - then Turbo is the
                    obvious answer.

                    Each different yeast displays a different series of performance
                    characteristics - way too numerous to mention here.

                    I have tried most of the spirit yeasts available here in New Zealand, and
                    have drawn my own conclusions as to what I believe is the best performing
                    yeasts - but then you must quantify your specific requirements in a yeast,
                    namely:

                    RESULTING QUALITY OF DISTILLATE (TASTE & SMELL)
                    SPEED OF FERMENT
                    YIELD
                    etc etc

                    In my experience, one yeast will not be able to provide all the
                    characteristics you require or demand - and as with most things in life -
                    there is a trade off.  If you require more of one specific characteristic,
                    then it will perform less in another area.

                    Further thoughts . . .

                    Cheers

                    Kiwi Gary

                    ----------
                    From: Ted Palmer <tpalmer@...>
                    To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [Distillers] re-using yeast
                    Date: Saturday, 5 May 2001 11:17

                    Several more reasons not to use turbo.
                    _____________
                    Ted Palmer
                    tpalmer@...

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Ola Norrman
                      To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 3:22 PM
                      Subject: Re: [Distillers] re-using yeast


                      Turbo Yeast (a mixture of yeast and nutrients) - shall
                      never be reused. There are 2 main reasons for this:

                      1.  Yeast condition.
                      During the manufacture of dried yeast, very high
                      levels of phospholipids are accumulated within the
                      plasma membrane because the yeast is grown aerobically
                      (with oxygen).  The yeast population which exists at
                      the end of fermentation has depleted levels making
                      yeast cells more sensitive during subsequent
                      fermentations and fermentation more likely to stick.

                      So the yeast produce and accumulates lipids during its
                      growth in the yeast factory. Then, during anaerobic
                      fermentation (without oxygen) in the wash, each new
                      generation of yeast contains less and less lipids.
                      Lipids are needed for alcohol tolerance which make
                      this important to 14% Turbos and far more important to
                      18% Turbos. If to many generations have passed
                      (because of reuse of yeast or to little yeast to start
                      with) the yeast have low "lipid protection" and
                      alcohol tolerance decrease.

                      Dried yeast also contains typically 15% Trehalose
                      which is a "protectant sugar". It gives the yeast cell
                      internal strength and also is an excellent "start
                      sugar" for the yeast to use at the start of
                      fermentation.  Cells at the end of fermentation will
                      typically contain only 2 or 3% Trehalose. Trehalose
                      protect against the shock when the yeast are mixed in
                      the wash.

                      2.  Nutrient depletion
                      Not relevant for beer, partly relevant for wine but
                      totally relevant for Turbo.  So for Turbo, because the
                      sugar offers no nutritional value, re-using the yeast
                      a second time will result in a stuck.

                      Turbos also contains pH-buffer to give the yeast
                      perfect pH conditions. Nutrients not only work as
                      nutrients, they also keep the production of volatiles
                      down to a minimum. Nutrients are consumed by the
                      yeast. Re-use of a Good Turbo yeast will also result
                      in a lot more volatiles in the wash. pH-buffer will
                      not work in the second batch. There are other
                      ingredients making the CO2 leave faster, giving the
                      yeast cells something to claim to and move around in
                      the fermentation, assist clearing after fermentation
                      etc. Those functions will also be spoiled as they are
                      a part of the nutrients.

                        Nutrient composition are the manufacturers secrets.
                      One can not simply add some DAP
                      (diammoniumphosphate)or similar and expect it to work
                      the same. The first Turbo in the world was made in
                      Sweden. They are sold under the name Prestige and are
                      extremely good. At
                      http://www.turbo-yeast.com/intro.html
                      there is a lot of info about quality Turbos including
                      a "recipe" telling how "Bad Turbos" are made.

                      There is also info about yeast strains at:
                      http://www.lallemand.com/danstar-lalvin/lalvin.html
                      It is a bit surprising that they not have some never
                      information here, only old basics.

                      One could talk about genetic drift and bacterial risks
                      too, but it is not so important.

                      Kindest regards
                      Ola


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                  • Ted Palmer
                    I was just wondering what qualifications and experience you may have in this field to back up your claims. Well, I got into the hobby when I was 10 with my
                    Message 9 of 20 , May 5 9:15 AM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I was just wondering what qualifications
                      and experience you may have in this field to back up your claims.

                      Well, I got into the hobby when I was 10 with my grandfather and built my first still at 16, then I almost got my degree in microbiology when I decided that travel was what I wanted to do and joined the navy for ten years. After I fulfilled my travel needs I got a degree in brewing science and started working in microbreweries. I've been brewing professionally for 8 years now and absolutely love it. My goal for the next decade is to start a microdistillery/brewpub.
                      I don't feel that I am "whitewashing" anyone's ideas, just erasing falsehoods and ignorance about yeast, My favorite animal in the world. And before anyone says its not an animal it is a fungus, let me say that there is a huge debate about just that going on in academia at the moment. Some say yeast should be reclassified up a level from fungus because of its cellular makeup.
                      It is good to hear you are using different yeasts that are making better tasting alcohol.
                      _____________
                      Ted Palmer
                      tpalmer@...
                      ps My cranky wife who is a geneticist wanted to know: with all the fear about genetically engineered foods why people would use an engineered yeast for something they are going to drink?
                       
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 8:08 PM
                      Subject: Re: [Distillers] re-using yeast

                      Ted, and others

                      I do not always use a turbo yeast - I am trialling several others also, and
                      have a large number of yeast available for sale and use.

                      I may use yeast for variety of reasons, which I have already touched on.
                      Lately I have been using a yeast that is much slower fermenting than a
                      turbo, but results in a superb wash and distillate flavour! Even then I
                      wouldn't drink a glass full of it! No way!

                      It appears Turbo's were simply not designed to be re-used at all, along
                      with many of the other high alcohol yeasts designed for beverage
                      consumption.

                      As you seem to have fairly strong views on this subject, and basically
                      whitewash everyone else's ideas, I was just wondering what qualifications
                      and experience you may have in this field to back up your claims.

                      Just for the record, I do not have any qualifications at all, and simply
                      draw on my own personal experiences to date with relation to taste, yield,
                      and speed of ferment etc etc.

                      Cheers

                      Kiwi Gary
                      gluyas@...

                      PS.  Also for the record: my wife is cranky ALL of the time, not just
                      during a full moon! THAT IS WHY I MARRIED HER!   KG

                      ----------
                      From: Ted Palmer <tpalmer@...>
                      To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com; Gary Gluyas <gluyas@...>
                      Subject: Re: [Distillers] re-using yeast
                      Date: Saturday, 5 May 2001 13:58

                      if people need / want a quick ferment - then Turbo is the
                      obvious answer.

                      No its not. I have a yeast that can ferment to 17% with greater than 80%
                      attenuation in less than 4 days at 75 degrees F. It has a slight h2so4 nose
                      to it but it clears bright in 2 days and then you can't smell the h2so4.
                      Esters and phenols are slight to none. No breadiness, sour or vegemite
                      aromas from the yeast that has been stored for 2 weeks and its viability is
                      94% after 34 generations. This yeast is a work horse!
                      www.whitelabs.com/yeast_descriptions.htm#WLP001- California Ale Yeast
                      This isn't the only one out there that is fantastic either.

                      Turbo lasts one maybe three generations if you know how to care for it. It
                      wasn't designed for use in beverage applications. It has nutritional needs
                      that need constant attention. This yeast is twice as cranky as your wife
                      during a full moon! Why use it? Because you always have? that's the only
                      thing that the shop sells? because you think 23% alc. is going to be better
                      tasting? The only reason to use it is to get to the magic number 23, and
                      that my friend is not a very good reason to me.
                      Really! Why do you keep using it? I used it a half dozen times and the
                      flavor of the wash was awful. I can't even condone its use for fuel alcohol
                      because of its difficult nature.
                      Would you own a car that needs to be repaired every other day or would you
                      get one that is reliable for years of hard driving?
                      Hmm?
                      _____________
                      Ted Palmer
                      tpalmer@...

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Gary Gluyas
                        To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com ; Ted Palmer
                        Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 5:19 PM
                        Subject: Re: [Distillers] re-using yeast


                        Ted

                        Just because you don't like Turbo's doesn't mean others shouldn't -
                        everyone is entitled to their opinion. 

                        We can all make up our minds as to what we like / prefer.

                        One of the reasons many people like the turbo's is because they provide a
                        quick ferment - if people need / want a quick ferment - then Turbo is the
                        obvious answer.

                        Each different yeast displays a different series of performance
                        characteristics - way too numerous to mention here.

                        I have tried most of the spirit yeasts available here in New Zealand, and
                        have drawn my own conclusions as to what I believe is the best performing
                        yeasts - but then you must quantify your specific requirements in a
                      yeast,
                        namely:

                        RESULTING QUALITY OF DISTILLATE (TASTE & SMELL)
                        SPEED OF FERMENT
                        YIELD
                        etc etc

                        In my experience, one yeast will not be able to provide all the
                        characteristics you require or demand - and as with most things in life -
                        there is a trade off.  If you require more of one specific
                      characteristic,
                        then it will perform less in another area.

                        Further thoughts . . .

                        Cheers

                        Kiwi Gary

                        ----------
                        From: Ted Palmer <tpalmer@...>
                        To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [Distillers] re-using yeast
                        Date: Saturday, 5 May 2001 11:17

                        Several more reasons not to use turbo.
                        _____________
                        Ted Palmer
                        tpalmer@...

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Ola Norrman
                          To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 3:22 PM
                          Subject: Re: [Distillers] re-using yeast


                          Turbo Yeast (a mixture of yeast and nutrients) - shall
                          never be reused. There are 2 main reasons for this:

                          1.  Yeast condition.
                          During the manufacture of dried yeast, very high
                          levels of phospholipids are accumulated within the
                          plasma membrane because the yeast is grown aerobically
                          (with oxygen).  The yeast population which exists at
                          the end of fermentation has depleted levels making
                          yeast cells more sensitive during subsequent
                          fermentations and fermentation more likely to stick.

                          So the yeast produce and accumulates lipids during its
                          growth in the yeast factory. Then, during anaerobic
                          fermentation (without oxygen) in the wash, each new
                          generation of yeast contains less and less lipids.
                          Lipids are needed for alcohol tolerance which make
                          this important to 14% Turbos and far more important to
                          18% Turbos. If to many generations have passed
                          (because of reuse of yeast or to little yeast to start
                          with) the yeast have low "lipid protection" and
                          alcohol tolerance decrease.

                          Dried yeast also contains typically 15% Trehalose
                          which is a "protectant sugar". It gives the yeast cell
                          internal strength and also is an excellent "start
                          sugar" for the yeast to use at the start of
                          fermentation.  Cells at the end of fermentation will
                          typically contain only 2 or 3% Trehalose. Trehalose
                          protect against the shock when the yeast are mixed in
                          the wash.

                          2.  Nutrient depletion
                          Not relevant for beer, partly relevant for wine but
                          totally relevant for Turbo.  So for Turbo, because the
                          sugar offers no nutritional value, re-using the yeast
                          a second time will result in a stuck.

                          Turbos also contains pH-buffer to give the yeast
                          perfect pH conditions. Nutrients not only work as
                          nutrients, they also keep the production of volatiles
                          down to a minimum. Nutrients are consumed by the
                          yeast. Re-use of a Good Turbo yeast will also result
                          in a lot more volatiles in the wash. pH-buffer will
                          not work in the second batch. There are other
                          ingredients making the CO2 leave faster, giving the
                          yeast cells something to claim to and move around in
                          the fermentation, assist clearing after fermentation
                          etc. Those functions will also be spoiled as they are
                          a part of the nutrients.

                            Nutrient composition are the manufacturers secrets.
                          One can not simply add some DAP
                          (diammoniumphosphate)or similar and expect it to work
                          the same. The first Turbo in the world was made in
                          Sweden. They are sold under the name Prestige and are
                          extremely good. At
                          http://www.turbo-yeast.com/intro.html
                          there is a lot of info about quality Turbos including
                          a "recipe" telling how "Bad Turbos" are made.

                          There is also info about yeast strains at:
                          http://www.lallemand.com/danstar-lalvin/lalvin.html
                          It is a bit surprising that they not have some never
                          information here, only old basics.

                          One could talk about genetic drift and bacterial risks
                          too, but it is not so important.

                          Kindest regards
                          Ola


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                    • Grayson Stewart
                      ... the ... water mix ... Thats all I do. Try to let the wash settle as much as possible to retain the maximum amount of yeast then add the new sugar water
                      Message 10 of 20 , Jul 12, 2004
                      • 0 Attachment
                        > I have a batch of 1118 about ready to cook, if I carefully decant
                        the
                        > liquid leaving the yeast cake, should I simply mix up the sugar
                        water mix
                        > and add and stir?

                        Thats all I do. Try to let the wash settle as much as possible to
                        retain the maximum amount of yeast then add the new sugar water
                        mix. Be sure and not add a sugar water mix that is too hot so it
                        won't harm the yeast.

                        I have read about adding tomatoe paste (or tomatoe
                        > sauce?) as a yeast nutrient. Is it paste or sauce?

                        I have always used tomato paste.

                        And what about the multi
                        > vitamin?

                        Several people say that the B vitamins are all that is really
                        required and anything else is a waste. This may be true, but a
                        store brand multi-vitamin has all the B vitamins and is the same
                        price. I leave a couple of the vitamins in an ounce or two of water
                        to dissolve then add at the same time I add the sugar water.
                      • Harry
                        ... wrote: ... water ... Berocca tablets work well, 1 per 25 lt mash. Slainte! regards Harry
                        Message 11 of 20 , Jul 12, 2004
                        • 0 Attachment
                          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Grayson Stewart"
                          <grayson_stewart66@y...> wrote:
                          <snip>
                          >
                          > Several people say that the B vitamins are all that is really
                          > required and anything else is a waste. This may be true, but a
                          > store brand multi-vitamin has all the B vitamins and is the same
                          > price. I leave a couple of the vitamins in an ounce or two of
                          water
                          > to dissolve then add at the same time I add the sugar water.



                          Berocca tablets work well, 1 per 25 lt mash.


                          Slainte!
                          regards Harry
                        • David
                          I have a batch of 1118 about ready to cook, if I carefully decant the liquid leaving the yeast cake, should I simply mix up the sugar water mix and add and
                          Message 12 of 20 , Jul 12, 2004
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I have a batch of 1118 about ready to cook, if I carefully decant the
                            liquid leaving the yeast cake, should I simply mix up the sugar water mix
                            and add and stir? I have read about adding tomatoe paste (or tomatoe
                            sauce?) as a yeast nutrient. Is it paste or sauce? And what about the multi
                            vitamin? I sure appreciate all you folks out there who are willing to share
                            their knowledge, (and humor.) Thanks, Dave
                          • Scott Petrinec
                            I usually leave just a tiny bit of liquid(just enough to cover the yeast cake, and then add my sugarwater(MAKE SURE IT IS COOLED DOWN TO ABOUT ROOM TEMPERATURE
                            Message 13 of 20 , Jul 12, 2004
                            • 0 Attachment
                              I usually leave just a tiny bit of liquid(just enough to cover the yeast cake, and then add my sugarwater(MAKE SURE IT IS COOLED DOWN TO ABOUT ROOM TEMPERATURE FIRST). And then I add 1 small can of tomatoe paste. Stirr it very well. A multi-vitamin wouldn't hurt either.(in addition to the tomatoe paste)(some people also add a couple tablespoons of lemon or lime juice for PH reasons, but I don't think it is necessary because the tomatoe paste has the needed acids,along with the needed nutrients).

                              David <maxtonnage@...> wrote:I have a batch of 1118 about ready to cook, if I carefully decant the
                              liquid leaving the yeast cake, should I simply mix up the sugar water mix
                              and add and stir? I have read about adding tomatoe paste (or tomatoe
                              sauce?) as a yeast nutrient. Is it paste or sauce? And what about the multi
                              vitamin? I sure appreciate all you folks out there who are willing to share
                              their knowledge, (and humor.) Thanks, Dave



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                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Grayson Stewart
                              ... Not being familiar with the name Berocca, I had to do an internet search. Seems the key ingredients are the B and C vitamins. This made me wonder if using
                              Message 14 of 20 , Jul 12, 2004
                              • 0 Attachment
                                > Berocca tablets work well, 1 per 25 lt mash.

                                Not being familiar with the name Berocca, I had to do an internet
                                search. Seems the key ingredients are the B and C vitamins.

                                This made me wonder if using tums which are 60% calcium and a dose
                                of orange juice would work as well.
                              • Harry
                                ... Sorry Gray. Tums is for neutralising stomach acid. Berocca is a fast-acting B-vitamin dietary supplement. Here s the info... WHAT IS BEROCCA? Berocca is
                                Message 15 of 20 , Jul 12, 2004
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Grayson Stewart"
                                  <grayson_stewart66@y...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > Berocca tablets work well, 1 per 25 lt mash.
                                  >
                                  > Not being familiar with the name Berocca, I had to do an internet
                                  > search. Seems the key ingredients are the B and C vitamins.
                                  >
                                  > This made me wonder if using tums which are 60% calcium and a dose
                                  > of orange juice would work as well.


                                  Sorry Gray. Tums is for neutralising stomach acid. Berocca is a
                                  fast-acting B-vitamin dietary supplement. Here's the info...

                                  WHAT IS BEROCCA?
                                  Berocca is a very popular dietary supplement among people constantly
                                  on the go. Especially after a big night out, this is just what the
                                  body needs to replenish its temporary stores of the water-soluble B
                                  & C group vitamins. Each effervescent Roche Berocca tablet contains
                                  1000mg of vitamin C, which (studies have shown) boosts the stamina
                                  of the human body's immune system by providing greater antiviral
                                  immunity and lowering your susceptibility to allergic disease. Each
                                  berocca tablet also contains seven different B group vitamins to
                                  keep you moving and to give you energy.



                                  BEROCCA - THE HANGOVER CURE THAT WORKS
                                  Alcohol consumption and smoking, along with sleep deprivation, can
                                  take a significant tole on your body. That doesn't by any means mean
                                  you shouldn't be doing it, but when you do, treat yourself to a
                                  Berocca. Take one before you go out, and one when you're going to
                                  bed. Berocca will replace the materials your body needs in order to
                                  repair itself. Coupled with ginseng, Berocca will give you a major
                                  energy boost for a long day ahead, which is great if you have only
                                  had a few hours sleep.



                                  EACH BEROCCA TABLET CONTAINS:

                                  ---------------------------------------------------------------------
                                  -----------
                                  Thiamine nitrate (Vitamin B1)............................ 20.5mg
                                  Riboflavine sodium phosphate
                                  ___ (equivalent to 15mg Riboflavine (Vitamin B2))........ 50mg
                                  Nicotinamide............................................. 25mg
                                  Calcium pantothenate
                                  ___ (equivalent to 23mg Pantothenic acid (Vitamin B5))... 10mg
                                  Pyridoxine hydrochloride (Vitamin B6).................... 10mcg
                                  Cyanocobalamin (Vitamin B12)............................. 150mcg
                                  Biotin (Vitamin H)....................................... 1000mg
                                  Ascorbic acid (Vitamin C)................................ 65mg
                                  Calcium (as Calcium pantothenate and Calcium carbonate).. 15mg

                                  Contains sucrose, equivalent to 8.9kJ

                                  Contains sodium chloride.
                                  -----------------------------------------------------------------
                                  Each Berocca tablet contains 285mg of sodium, which should be taken
                                  into account by those on a low sodium diet. Vitamins can only be of
                                  assistance if the dietary vitamin intake is inadequate.



                                  Slainte!
                                  regards Harry
                                • Maxime Belair
                                  What amount of tomato paste should be added for 20L of sugar wash? Does it removes the need to add DAP and other nutrients? Thank you, Maxime Belair
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Jul 12, 2004
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                                    What amount of tomato paste should be added for 20L of
                                    sugar wash?

                                    Does it removes the need to add DAP and other
                                    nutrients?

                                    Thank you,

                                    Maxime Belair

                                    __________________________________________________________
                                    Lèche-vitrine ou lèche-écran ?
                                    magasinage.yahoo.ca
                                  • Scott Petrinec
                                    I use one small can (6 oz) for a 20L wash. It contains VitaminA , VitaminC , Iron, Proteins, And acids. I use sugar, tomatoe paste and 2 tablespoons lemon
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Jul 13, 2004
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                                      I use one small can (6 oz) for a 20L wash.
                                      It contains VitaminA , VitaminC , Iron, Proteins, And acids.
                                      I use sugar, tomatoe paste and 2 tablespoons lemon juice.

                                      Maxime Belair <maxime_belair@...> wrote:
                                      What amount of tomato paste should be added for 20L of
                                      sugar wash?

                                      Does it removes the need to add DAP and other
                                      nutrients?

                                      Thank you,

                                      Maxime Belair

                                      __________________________________________________________
                                      L�che-vitrine ou l�che-�cran ?
                                      magasinage.yahoo.ca


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                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Maxime Belair
                                      Wow! Only this and it works ? How much sugar do you use and how much time does it takes to ferment and with what yeast? If I could only use tomato paste as a
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Jul 13, 2004
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                                        Wow! Only this and it works ?
                                        How much sugar do you use and how much time does it
                                        takes to ferment and with what yeast?

                                        If I could only use tomato paste as a nutrient it
                                        would cost me much less.

                                        Thank you,

                                        Maxime Belair
                                        =====
                                        I use one small can (6 oz) for a 20L wash.
                                        > It contains VitaminA , VitaminC , Iron, Proteins,
                                        > And acids.
                                        > I use sugar, tomatoe paste and 2 tablespoons lemon
                                        > juice.


                                        __________________________________________________________
                                        Lèche-vitrine ou lèche-écran ?
                                        magasinage.yahoo.ca
                                      • Scott Petrinec
                                        I use 15lbs sugar, 1 can(6oz) of paste, 2 tablespoons lemon juice. I have used many different yeasts, the one I use most is Red Star champagne yeast, 5 -5gram
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Jul 13, 2004
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                                          I use 15lbs sugar, 1 can(6oz) of paste, 2 tablespoons lemon juice.
                                          I have used many different yeasts, the one I use most is Red Star champagne yeast, 5 -5gram satchets.(I buy it from www.grapestompers.com ) BUT...just about any baker's yeast or turbo works well too.
                                          It usually ferments out in 1-2 weeks (depending on conditions). I usually get a 15-18%abv .

                                          Maxime Belair <maxime_belair@...> wrote:
                                          Wow! Only this and it works ?
                                          How much sugar do you use and how much time does it
                                          takes to ferment and with what yeast?

                                          If I could only use tomato paste as a nutrient it
                                          would cost me much less.

                                          Thank you,

                                          Maxime Belair
                                          =====
                                          I use one small can (6 oz) for a 20L wash.
                                          > It contains VitaminA , VitaminC , Iron, Proteins,
                                          > And acids.
                                          > I use sugar, tomatoe paste and 2 tablespoons lemon
                                          > juice.


                                          __________________________________________________________
                                          L�che-vitrine ou l�che-�cran ?
                                          magasinage.yahoo.ca


                                          Distillers list archives : http://archive.nnytech.net/
                                          FAQ and other information at http://homedistiller.org


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                                          ---------------------------------
                                          Yahoo! Groups Links

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                                          Distillers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Maxime Belair
                                          Thanks, I ll try this again with the tomato paste. My first wash used tomato paste + fermaid and didn t ferment in a short time. I took months to get to 12%
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Jul 13, 2004
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                                            Thanks, I'll try this again with the tomato paste. My
                                            first wash used tomato paste + fermaid and didn't
                                            ferment in a short time. I took months to get to 12%
                                            !

                                            Now I made a new recipe using a part of brown sugar in
                                            the white sugar wash. It ferments at 1% per day but
                                            when it reach about 10% it started to make only .5%
                                            per day and it is still fermenting now.

                                            Also in this recipe I added 1tsp of fermaid (yeast
                                            nutrient) / 4 liters.

                                            I don't know why it does not work faster...

                                            Maybe it's because I didn't start with enough yeast.
                                            10gr/40L

                                            Thanks,

                                            Maxime Belair

                                            ====
                                            I use 15lbs sugar, 1 can(6oz) of paste, 2
                                            > tablespoons lemon juice.
                                            > I have used many different yeasts, the one I use
                                            > most is Red Star champagne yeast, 5 -5gram
                                            > satchets.(I buy it from www.grapestompers.com )
                                            > BUT...just about any baker's yeast or turbo works
                                            > well too.
                                            > It usually ferments out in 1-2 weeks (depending on
                                            > conditions). I usually get a 15-18%abv .


                                            __________________________________________________________
                                            Lèche-vitrine ou lèche-écran ?
                                            magasinage.yahoo.ca
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