Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [Distillers] Reusing yeast

Expand Messages
  • Ted Sims
    The two fermenters pitched with the reused yeast are essentially finished fermenting. I ll check the S.G. in a day or two...and also give it a taste. The beer
    Message 1 of 11 , May 1, 2001
    • 0 Attachment
      The two fermenters pitched with the reused yeast are
      essentially finished fermenting. I'll check the S.G.
      in a day or two...and also give it a taste.

      The beer from the first fermentation was quite tasty,
      so good in fact that I bottled 6 large bottles of it
      (for my 80 year old father-in-law, who says it is "a
      meal in itself").
      I have already distilled the rest of this batch, and I
      will prepare a report and post it later, also with
      details and a pic of the still. I have this list
      (archives esp.) and Tony's site to thank for a
      successful run.

      I have to agree with something Ted Palmer said. I am
      not into the industrial alcohol distillation scene
      either. It was common knowledge among the old
      moonshiners here (the variety that used corn), that
      the secret to good liquor was in the mash boxes, not
      in the working of the still.

      So, I don't really understand the idea of trying to
      make what is basically "lab" alcohol out of cheap
      sugar and industrial yeast, then spending more money
      to fix it with fancy activated carbon, then trying to
      put an "essence" in it to make it taste like real
      liquor.

      I will report on my run later, but I'll say now that
      the liquor is good to drink, right out of the still,
      after watering it down a bit.

      Cheers
      Ted
      --- Ted Palmer <tpalmer@...> wrote:
      > Here we go again!
      > I'm going to put you through the shredder Gary
      > but it is nothing personal. :)
      > Lets do this point by point.
      > >It seems to me that it is false economy to re-use
      > yeast!<
      > Economy should not be the reason to reuse yeast, it
      > is biology. more on this point later.
      >
      > >We have had a number of hobby distillers who have
      > problems with bacteria
      > etc with first-time yeast, and no one can guarantee
      > the yeast will be
      > bacteria free the second time around. Some have had
      > to discard their
      > fermenters and buy new ones, due to a particular
      > virus, and it is not cheap
      > at $30 a time.<
      > Bacterial infections come from many places, the
      > first place to look is the packet that the yeast
      > came in. Yes, that's right, many supposedly "pure"
      > yeast packets are full of bacteria. A lab study done
      > by the Association of Brewers on single use yeast
      > starters from well over a dozen yeast manufacturers
      > showed conclusively that bacterial contamination was
      > in every sample tested though the degree of
      > contamination varied greatly. So what is "pure"?
      > Pure is the least amount of contamination possible
      > to produce a clean and vigorous ferment.
      > You are more likely to have a problem with yeast
      > contamination if you under pitch the number of cells
      > per ml. I've covered this a million times so I won't
      > go into it again here. But the reason for this is
      > that the yeast cells control the population of
      > bacteria by reducing the pH of the wash as they grow
      > and if there aren't enough cells to do this the
      > bacteria will thrive. So why do many of your
      > customers get infections? Not enough yeast to do the
      > job. One packet of yeast is NOT enough to EVER do
      > the job. As for virus contamination I've never heard
      > of such a thing in brewing yeast being a problem,
      > Phages that infect yeast are easily killed by heat,
      > chemicals and UV light and aren't a source of the
      > kinds of problems you are experiencing. Phages cause
      > mutations that effect the health of the yeast like
      > respitory deficient mutants and viability problems.
      > More than likely the infections are coming from poor
      > cleaning of fermenters, chillers, spoons or anything
      > else that comes in contact with the wash. That and
      > primary yeast contamination. Use a good caustic
      > cleaner and then use a strong sanitizers like
      > bleach, or any quaternary sanitizers(milk industry),
      > or my favorite peroxyacetic acid and hydrogen
      > peroxide mix.
      >
      > >Surely the yield will be reduced, so . . . what are
      > the real
      > actual savings then? Is it really worth it?<
      > The yield should not reduce just from reusing the
      > yeast. In fact it should increase just because there
      > are enough yeast cells to do the job. If you do
      > experience a noticeable reduction in output from the
      > yeast then it has mutated or the viability has
      > dropped below 75%. The "turbo" yeasts are highly
      > engineered yeasts and are therefore weak
      > genetically. I don't recommend anyone use such a
      > yeast because of that one point. Fermenting to the
      > theoretical 23% is fine for fuel alcohol but when it
      > comes to beverage alcohol don't go over 18%, There
      > isn't a single commercial beverage distiller that
      > uses turbo yeast or that ferments above 18%! Why
      > should you? Cost? Time? Neither of these factors
      > belong in a hobby.
      > >I just cannot believe that there is thinking out
      > there along these lines -
      > it just doesn't make any sense to me at all.<
      > I feel this way about using turbo yeasts and
      > fermenting to the theoretical 23% maximum yield. I
      > built my first still over 20 years ago and let me
      > tell you that I never made good booze with a turbo
      > yeast. never. The stuff was engineered for the
      > industrial alcohol industry not beverage. I'd
      > recommend that you toss out all that turbo crap and
      > only sell yeasts that are proven in the beverage
      > industry. You'll see better results and your
      > customers will not get frustrated and quit trying to
      > make this hobby work.
      >
      > BTW, A good test to tell if the wash you made is
      > going to make good booze is if you can drink a whole
      > glass of wash and enjoy it.
      >
      > _____________
      > Ted Palmer
      > tpalmer@...
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Gary Gluyas
      > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com ; Ted Sims
      > Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2001 2:33 AM
      > Subject: Re: [Distillers] Reusing yeast
      >
      >
      > Hello All
      >
      > It seems to me that it is false economy to re-use
      > yeast!
      >
      > The potential for bacteria creeping into the
      > yeast, stray wild yeast, and
      > problems with yeast not performing to the required
      > standard the second time
      > around, you are simply opening yourself up to
      > insurmountable hassles.
      >
      > We have had a number of hobby distillers who have
      > problems with bacteria
      > etc with first-time yeast, and no one can
      > guarantee the yeast will be
      > bacteria free the second time around. Some have
      > had to discard their
      > fermenters and buy new ones, due to a particular
      > virus, and it is not cheap
      > at $30 a time.
      >
      > All these potential problems to try and save a few
      > $$ here and there! It
      > is simply another variable in the process - I
      > thought that one primary
      > reasons of this forum was to try and reduce the
      > variables - not increase
      > them.
      >
      > For the record, a yeast pack in New Zealand
      > retails here - from $NZ 2.00
      > for a plain spirit high-alcohol producing yeast,
      > to $NZ 7.95 for a turbo
      > yeast including all the nutrients as well. If you
      > are successful - AND
      > THAT IS A VERY BIG "IF" - and use the yeast twice
      > - what are you going to
      > save $1 - $4. Surely the yield will be reduced,
      > so . . . what are the real
      > actual savings then? Is it really worth it?
      >
      > I just cannot believe that there is thinking out
      > there along these lines -
      > it just doesn't make any sense to me at all. Even
      > though we are retailers,
      > and having been involved in this hobby supply
      > business for several years
      > now and as an active distiller, I would not
      > consider re-using yeast ever -
      > nor would I ever suggest that people try it - even
      > if the stuff was twice
      > the price!
      >
      > Kiwi Gary
      > Mill-Ford Lodge Homebrew Shop
      > gluyas@...
      > www.pbsltd.co.nz
      >
      > P.S. If you do re-use yeast and strike problems
      > (which I am sure you
      > will), then please save us all a lot of time, and
      > don't bother looking for
      > answers to those particular problems on this
      > forum. GG
      > ----------
      > From: Ted Sims <tedsims@...>
      > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [Distillers] Reusing yeast
      > Date: Saturday, 28 April 2001 07:59
      >
      >
      >
      > I thought I would report on how I reused my yeast
      > from
      > the last batch.
      >
      > My last fermentation (20L malt extract solution
      > starting at 1.080) finished with nearly 2L of
      > yeast
      > slurry in the bottom of container.
      >
      > Today I started two new fermentations as follows.
      >
      > I used 2 20L plastic beer fermenters. I poured
      > malt
      > extract syrup (about 5 kg in each) in the bottom.
      > Then
      > added about the same volume of boiled water from a
      > kettle, and stirred until the extract was
      > dissolved.
      > Then I added sufficient cold and boiling water to
      > make
      > about 20 L in each container, at about 27 deg. C.
      >
      >
      === message truncated ===


      __________________________________________________
      Do You Yahoo!?
      Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
      http://auctions.yahoo.com/
    • Ted Palmer
      ... Makes perfect sense! If you want to store the yeast for more than a week it should be washed first and stored under glycerin. I think there is info on that
      Message 2 of 11 , May 1, 2001
      • 0 Attachment
        >I just think that it makes sense. <
        Makes perfect sense!
        If you want to store the yeast for more than a week it should be washed first and stored under glycerin. I think there is info on that in the bookmarks section.
        The Microbrewery Laboratory Manual
        Part 1: Yeast Management
        http://www.brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue2.4/allen.html
         The Microbrewery Laboratory Manual
        Part III: Wild Yeast Detection and Remediation
        http://www.brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue2.6/allen.html
         
         The Microbrewery Laboratory Manual
        Part II: Bacteria Detection, Enumeration, and Identification
        http://www.brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue2.5/allen.html
        _____________
        Ted Palmer
        tpalmer@...
         
         
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Giles
        Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 7:22 AM
        Subject: RE: [Distillers] Reusing yeast

        I used to dutifully buy my little packet of yeast from the home brew
        shop every time i wanted to brew a batch (beer or wash). I used to
        wait nervously for 24+ hours for some sign of fermentation and
        another 24 before i saw a good yeast cap form. This was even after
        making a starter in a pint or so of warm water. That was before i
        'discovered ' after reading  posts in this group that if you throw lots
        of thick yeast sludge from the last successful brew into wash or
        beer at 20-25C you can have vigourous fermentation in just a few
        hours and ferment cleaner and quicker to boot. I don't think you can
        have too much yeast present. I usually fill a sanitised 1l PET bottle
        with yeast sludge after brewing beer and keep it in the fridge till i
        need it. Seems to me that the more yeast you can introduce at the
        outset, the more competition there is for the bugs and the less likely
        you are to get infections. This has nothing to do with being
        parsimonious, I just think that it makes sense.


        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
      • Ted Palmer
        Yeast Washing for the Homebrewer http://hbd.org/brewery/library/yeast-faq.html#part_three This is a pretty good FAQ for yeast in general too. _____________ Ted
        Message 3 of 11 , May 1, 2001
        • 0 Attachment
          Yeast Washing for the Homebrewer
           
          This is a pretty good FAQ for yeast in general too.
          _____________
          Ted Palmer
          tpalmer@...
        • Ted Palmer
          Making lab alcohol is very challenging and is lots of fun, I enjoy it myself. getting a column to run perfect is akin to model rocketry or building robots. I
          Message 4 of 11 , May 1, 2001
          • 0 Attachment
            Making "lab" alcohol is very challenging and is lots of fun, I enjoy it myself. getting a column to run perfect is akin to model rocketry or building robots. I think we all just want to be the mad scientist tinkering in the basement.
            _____________
            Ted Palmer
            tpalmer@...
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Ted Sims
            Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 11:41 AM
            Subject: Re: [Distillers] Reusing yeast

            The two fermenters pitched with the reused yeast are
            essentially finished fermenting. I'll check the S.G.
            in a day or two...and also give it a taste.

            The beer from the first fermentation was quite tasty,
            so good  in fact that I bottled 6 large bottles of it
            (for my 80 year old father-in-law, who says it is "a
            meal in itself").
            I have already distilled the rest of this batch, and I
            will prepare a report and post it later, also with
            details and a pic of the still. I have this list
            (archives esp.) and Tony's site to thank for a
            successful run.

            I have to agree with something Ted Palmer said. I am
            not into the industrial alcohol distillation scene
            either. It was common knowledge among the old
            moonshiners here (the variety that used corn), that
            the secret to good liquor was in the mash boxes, not
            in the working of the still.

            So, I don't really understand the idea of trying to
            make what is basically "lab" alcohol out of cheap
            sugar and industrial yeast, then spending more money
            to fix it with fancy activated carbon, then trying to
            put an "essence" in it to make it taste like real
            liquor.

            I will report on my run later, but I'll say now that
            the liquor is good to drink, right out of the still,
            after watering it down a bit.

            Cheers
            Ted
            --- Ted Palmer <tpalmer@...> wrote:
            > Here we go again!
            >     I'm going to put you through the shredder Gary
            > but it is nothing personal. :)
            > Lets do this point by point.
            > >It seems to me that it is false economy to re-use
            > yeast!<
            > Economy should not be the reason to reuse yeast, it
            > is biology. more on this point later.
            >
            > >We have had a number of hobby distillers who have
            > problems with bacteria
            > etc with first-time yeast, and no one can guarantee
            > the yeast will be
            > bacteria free the second time around.  Some have had
            > to discard their
            > fermenters and buy new ones, due to a particular
            > virus, and it is not cheap
            > at $30 a time.<
            > Bacterial infections come from many places, the
            > first place to look is the packet that the yeast
            > came in. Yes, that's right, many supposedly "pure"
            > yeast packets are full of bacteria. A lab study done
            > by the Association of Brewers on single use yeast
            > starters from well over a dozen yeast manufacturers
            > showed conclusively that bacterial contamination was
            > in every sample tested though the degree of
            > contamination varied greatly. So what is "pure"?
            > Pure is the least amount of contamination possible
            > to produce a clean and vigorous ferment.
            > You are more likely to have a problem with yeast
            > contamination if you under pitch the number of cells
            > per ml. I've covered this a million times so I won't
            > go into it again here. But the reason for this is
            > that the yeast cells control the population of
            > bacteria by reducing the pH of the wash as they grow
            > and if there aren't enough cells to do this the
            > bacteria will thrive. So why do many of your
            > customers get infections? Not enough yeast to do the
            > job. One packet of yeast is NOT enough to EVER do
            > the job. As for virus contamination I've never heard
            > of such a thing in brewing yeast being a problem,
            > Phages that infect yeast are easily killed by heat,
            > chemicals and UV light and aren't a source of the
            > kinds of problems you are experiencing. Phages cause
            > mutations that effect the health of the yeast like
            > respitory deficient mutants and viability problems.
            > More than likely the infections are coming from poor
            > cleaning of fermenters, chillers, spoons or anything
            > else that comes in contact with the wash. That and
            > primary yeast contamination.  Use a good caustic
            > cleaner and then use a strong sanitizers like
            > bleach, or any quaternary sanitizers(milk industry),
            > or my favorite peroxyacetic acid and hydrogen
            > peroxide mix.
            >
            > >Surely the yield will be reduced, so . . . what are
            > the real
            > actual savings then?  Is it really worth it?<
            > The yield should not reduce just from reusing the
            > yeast. In fact it should increase just because there
            > are enough yeast cells to do the job. If you do
            > experience a noticeable reduction in output from the
            > yeast then it has mutated or the viability has
            > dropped below 75%. The "turbo" yeasts are highly
            > engineered yeasts and are therefore weak
            > genetically. I don't recommend anyone use such a
            > yeast because of that one point. Fermenting to the
            > theoretical 23% is fine for fuel alcohol but when it
            > comes to beverage alcohol don't go over 18%, There
            > isn't a single commercial beverage distiller that
            > uses turbo yeast or that ferments above 18%! Why
            > should you? Cost? Time? Neither of these factors
            > belong in a hobby.
            > >I just cannot believe that there is thinking out
            > there along these lines -
            > it just doesn't make any sense to me at all.< 
            > I feel this way about using turbo yeasts and
            > fermenting to the theoretical 23% maximum yield. I
            > built my first still over 20 years ago and let me
            > tell you that I never made good booze with a turbo
            > yeast. never. The stuff was engineered for the
            > industrial alcohol industry not beverage. I'd
            > recommend that you toss out all that turbo crap and
            > only sell yeasts that are proven in the beverage
            > industry. You'll see better results and your
            > customers will not get frustrated and quit trying to
            > make this hobby work.
            >
            > BTW, A good test to tell if the wash you made is
            > going to make good booze is if you can drink a whole
            > glass of wash and enjoy it.
            >
            > _____________
            > Ted Palmer
            > tpalmer@...
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            >   From: Gary Gluyas
            >   To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com ; Ted Sims
            >   Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2001 2:33 AM
            >   Subject: Re: [Distillers] Reusing yeast
            >
            >
            >   Hello All
            >
            >   It seems to me that it is false economy to re-use
            > yeast! 
            >
            >   The potential for bacteria creeping into the
            > yeast, stray wild yeast, and
            >   problems with yeast not performing to the required
            > standard the second time
            >   around, you are simply opening yourself up to
            > insurmountable hassles.
            >
            >   We have had a number of hobby distillers who have
            > problems with bacteria
            >   etc with first-time yeast, and no one can
            > guarantee the yeast will be
            >   bacteria free the second time around.  Some have
            > had to discard their
            >   fermenters and buy new ones, due to a particular
            > virus, and it is not cheap
            >   at $30 a time.
            >
            >   All these potential problems to try and save a few
            > $$ here and there!  It
            >   is simply another variable in the process - I
            > thought that one primary
            >   reasons of this forum was to try and reduce the
            > variables - not increase
            >   them.
            >
            >   For the record, a yeast pack in New Zealand
            > retails here - from $NZ 2.00
            >   for a plain spirit high-alcohol producing yeast,
            > to $NZ 7.95 for a turbo
            >   yeast including all the nutrients as well.  If you
            > are successful - AND
            >   THAT IS A VERY BIG "IF" - and use the yeast twice
            > - what are you going to
            >   save $1 - $4.  Surely the yield will be reduced,
            > so . . . what are the real
            >   actual savings then?  Is it really worth it?
            >
            >   I just cannot believe that there is thinking out
            > there along these lines -
            >   it just doesn't make any sense to me at all.  Even
            > though we are retailers,
            >   and having been involved in this hobby supply
            > business for several years
            >   now and as an active distiller, I would not
            > consider re-using yeast ever -
            >   nor would I ever suggest that people try it - even
            > if the stuff was twice
            >   the price!
            >
            >   Kiwi Gary
            >   Mill-Ford Lodge Homebrew Shop
            >   gluyas@...
            >   www.pbsltd.co.nz
            >
            >   P.S.  If you do re-use yeast and strike problems
            > (which I am sure you
            >   will), then please save us all a lot of time, and
            > don't bother looking for
            >   answers to those particular problems on this
            > forum.  GG
            >   ----------
            >   From: Ted Sims <tedsims@...>
            >   To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
            >   Subject: [Distillers] Reusing yeast
            >   Date: Saturday, 28 April 2001 07:59
            >
            >
            >
            >   I thought I would report on how I reused my yeast
            > from
            >   the last batch.
            >
            >   My last fermentation (20L malt extract solution
            >   starting at 1.080) finished with nearly 2L of
            > yeast
            >   slurry in the bottom of container.
            >
            >   Today I started two new fermentations as follows.
            >
            >   I used 2 20L plastic beer fermenters. I poured
            > malt
            >   extract syrup (about 5 kg in each) in the bottom.
            > Then
            >   added about the same volume of boiled water from a
            >   kettle, and stirred until the extract was
            > dissolved.
            >   Then I added sufficient cold and boiling water to
            > make
            >   about 20 L in each container, at about 27 deg. C.
            >
            >
            === message truncated ===


            __________________________________________________
            Do You Yahoo!?
            Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
            http://auctions.yahoo.com/


            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.