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Re: [Distillers] Re: Still design (yet *another* post)

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  • G&N
    With regards to cooling i just use a pond pump not the cheap one but the next one up ...it was 70 A$ ... From: To:
    Message 1 of 4 , Apr 15 10:12 PM
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      With regards to cooling i just use a pond pump not the cheap one but the
      next one up ...it was 70 A$
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: <ken@...>
      To: <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Monday, April 16, 2001 12:02 PM
      Subject: [Distillers] Re: Still design (yet *another* post)


      > --- In Distillers@y..., "daniel" <gomeral@h...> wrote:
      > > Alright, I'll quit at three. I just thought that breaking these
      > > thoughts up into separate posts would be easier on people. :)
      > >
      > > As much as I enjoy the idea of building a still, the engineer in me
      > > wants to make it a better mousetrap. To that end, I've designed a
      > > still system that is 'self-contained', meaning that I just have to
      > > plug the system into 115VAC and let it go. The primary purpose for
      > > this design is 'cause I live in a high-rise and don't have easy
      > > access to cooling water unless I run the thing in my bathtub!
      > > (Kitchen ain't really an option, based on poor design.) So, here's
      > > the details:
      > >
      > > In order to avoid long hoses running all over the place, I intend
      > to
      > > use a submersible pump in a large tub of water to provide a cooling
      > > water loop. A 12VDC bilge pump would be ideal, but would require a
      > > little extra hardware (transformer). By the way, now you know why
      > I
      > > was asking how much cooling water people use a few weeks back: pump
      > > sizing. :) In order to ensure the water stays cool enough for
      > good
      > > condenser operations, I can either throw ice cubes in the tub of
      > > water when required, or (what I'm leaning towards) run the water
      > > through a radiator before it returns to the 'sump'. I've already
      > got
      > > a 115VAC fan that would attach nicely.
      > >
      > > I have the means to allow for two separate automatic temperature
      > > control loops, and I am considering the sources for feedback-
      > > control. One should almost certainly be temperature of the top of
      > > the column controlling a 1500W boiler heating element. I have two
      > > thoughts for the other loop, though:
      > >
      > > 1) Use 2 1500W heating elements and control one based on the wort
      > > temperature. That should allow for RAPID heat-up and then clean
      > > control of the boil.
      > >
      > > 2) Use 1 heating element and control the condenser water flow rate
      > > based on the temperature at the outlet of the condenser, or
      > perhaps
      > > at the top of a Stone/Nixon head. The idea would be to ensure
      > all
      > > vapor was being condensed well before the end of the condenser.
      > >
      > > Now, as far as (2) goes, it seems like overcooling would never be a
      > > problem, so I could just leave the pump running at full capacity
      > and
      > > flowrate control be damned. But that's just not "elegant". :P
      > >
      > > Since I had to buy so much damned copper tubing (thanks to the
      > > Home 'Despot'), I'm probably going to build two still heads: one
      > for
      > > pot still operation and one for reflux operation. I've also cut a
      > > short section of tubing that can be inserted between either still
      > > head and the boiler to act as a gin head. I'll be relying on
      > unions
      > > to join the column, gin head, and boiler together...so I want to
      > make
      > > sure I don't have a significant leakage problem. Since it's all
      > > modular, I don't want to solder these together, so I'll probably
      > find
      > > some way to wrap the joint seams.
      > >
      > > On a different note, I thought I'd mention that since fluid
      > velocity
      > > plays a critical role in heat transfer, I've made a change in the
      > > shell-and-tube design: Instead of 1" and 1.5" tubing, I'm using
      > 3/4"
      > > and 1" tubing. This leaves about 1/8" spacing between the tube and
      > > the jacket and will make for much greater cooling capacity, I
      > believe.
      > > 3/4" is still plenty large enough to avoid flooding, although if I
      > go
      > > with an inverted column design (as opposed to Stone/Nixon), that
      > would
      > > be pretty hard to do!
      > >
      > > So, all this said...anyone have any feedback?
      > >
      > >
      > > daniel
      >
      > Daniel,I have run both a Labmaster column/condenser and a N/S
      > column/condenser using the same Kettle and heating unit.
      >
      > Labmaster system requires 270 Lts./hour to contain and condense
      > output while the N/S setup uses 95 Lts./hour and can support total
      > reflux,something I could never achieve with the Labmaster.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >
    • physkid@raidersfan.net
      Sounds like you ve got quite the project going, awesome! Have fun with it. If you haven t built the head yet, definately go with the Nixon/Stone. Of course, as
      Message 2 of 4 , Apr 16 10:54 AM
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        Sounds like you've got quite the project going, awesome! Have fun
        with it.

        If you haven't built the head yet, definately go with the
        Nixon/Stone. Of course, as we've just been reminded, make sure you
        size it correctly for your heating element, we don't want any big
        booms. The reason for the preferance for N/S is, as another poster
        mentioned, the ability to control the reflux ratio continuously from
        zero to full reflux. It will also allow you to get rid of one of your
        temperature control loops, namely the one on your element. The idea
        with a N/S head is that you run your element at full throtle, and use
        the head to condense all the vapors. You then use the needle valve to
        control the reflux ratio. You adjust the temperature at the top of
        your still with the reflux ratio, rather than input energy at your
        heating element. This is a much finer control and allows for maximum
        output rate. On my own still, which isn't a N/S, I have to control
        the temperature with the heating element. This means that if I want
        higher proof, I have to lower the input energy which means I also
        slow down the output rate. The problem is that my reflux ratio is
        fixed by the physical makeup of my still. With a N/S you can control
        this ratio directly. This is, to use your words, much more elegant.

        I use a little pump to recirculate my cooling water. It works fine by
        just adding some ice cubes, or exchanging warm water with cold for my
        small set up. I like your radiator idea, that should work nicely.

        Also, you mention something about using a temperature control loop to
        get "clean control of the boil". I don't quite follow you here. A
        liquid boils at it's boiling temp very "cleanly" no matter what the
        input energy until it all boils away. As long as you have some
        boiling stones or something else to avoid superheating and buring
        locally there are no issues. Just turn it on and go.

        Happy hooching,
        andrew

        --- In Distillers@y..., "daniel" <gomeral@h...> wrote:
        > Alright, I'll quit at three. I just thought that breaking these
        > thoughts up into separate posts would be easier on people. :)
        >
        > As much as I enjoy the idea of building a still, the engineer in me
        > wants to make it a better mousetrap. To that end, I've designed a
        > still system that is 'self-contained', meaning that I just have to
        > plug the system into 115VAC and let it go. The primary purpose for
        > this design is 'cause I live in a high-rise and don't have easy
        > access to cooling water unless I run the thing in my bathtub!
        > (Kitchen ain't really an option, based on poor design.) So, here's
        > the details:
        >
        > In order to avoid long hoses running all over the place, I intend
        to
        > use a submersible pump in a large tub of water to provide a cooling
        > water loop. A 12VDC bilge pump would be ideal, but would require a
        > little extra hardware (transformer). By the way, now you know why
        I
        > was asking how much cooling water people use a few weeks back: pump
        > sizing. :) In order to ensure the water stays cool enough for
        good
        > condenser operations, I can either throw ice cubes in the tub of
        > water when required, or (what I'm leaning towards) run the water
        > through a radiator before it returns to the 'sump'. I've already
        got
        > a 115VAC fan that would attach nicely.
        >
        > I have the means to allow for two separate automatic temperature
        > control loops, and I am considering the sources for feedback-
        > control. One should almost certainly be temperature of the top of
        > the column controlling a 1500W boiler heating element. I have two
        > thoughts for the other loop, though:
        >
        > 1) Use 2 1500W heating elements and control one based on the wort
        > temperature. That should allow for RAPID heat-up and then clean
        > control of the boil.
        >
        > 2) Use 1 heating element and control the condenser water flow rate
        > based on the temperature at the outlet of the condenser, or
        perhaps
        > at the top of a Stone/Nixon head. The idea would be to ensure
        all
        > vapor was being condensed well before the end of the condenser.
        >
        > Now, as far as (2) goes, it seems like overcooling would never be a
        > problem, so I could just leave the pump running at full capacity
        and
        > flowrate control be damned. But that's just not "elegant". :P
        >
        > Since I had to buy so much damned copper tubing (thanks to the
        > Home 'Despot'), I'm probably going to build two still heads: one
        for
        > pot still operation and one for reflux operation. I've also cut a
        > short section of tubing that can be inserted between either still
        > head and the boiler to act as a gin head. I'll be relying on
        unions
        > to join the column, gin head, and boiler together...so I want to
        make
        > sure I don't have a significant leakage problem. Since it's all
        > modular, I don't want to solder these together, so I'll probably
        find
        > some way to wrap the joint seams.
        >
        > On a different note, I thought I'd mention that since fluid
        velocity
        > plays a critical role in heat transfer, I've made a change in the
        > shell-and-tube design: Instead of 1" and 1.5" tubing, I'm using
        3/4"
        > and 1" tubing. This leaves about 1/8" spacing between the tube and
        > the jacket and will make for much greater cooling capacity, I
        believe.
        > 3/4" is still plenty large enough to avoid flooding, although if I
        go
        > with an inverted column design (as opposed to Stone/Nixon), that
        would
        > be pretty hard to do!
        >
        > So, all this said...anyone have any feedback?
        >
        >
        > daniel
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