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On oak at what proof?

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  • Maxime Belair
    Hello, I tryed to get the answer by reading on homedistiller but I didn t found where they talk about aging on oak at high % (70-96%) So what s the difference
    Message 1 of 9 , Jun 14, 2004
      Hello,

      I tryed to get the answer by reading on
      homedistiller but I didn't found where they talk about
      aging on oak at high % (70-96%)

      So what's the difference in the taste, time and
      color... if there is one of aging 1 liter of 95% with
      a tsp of tosted oak or of aging 1 liter of 55% with a
      tsp of the same oak?

      Thank you very much,

      Maxime belair

      __________________________________________________________
      Lèche-vitrine ou lèche-écran ?
      magasinage.yahoo.ca
    • David
      I havent tried it at a higher %, but I would think that if you did that it might weaken the flavor when you did finally reduce it down.
      Message 2 of 9 , Jun 15, 2004
        I havent tried it at a higher %, but I would think that if you did
        that it might weaken the flavor when you did finally reduce it down.
      • waljaco
        Some oak substances are water-soluble while others are alcohol- soluble. If I remember right, whiskey/whisky is aged at 60%abv. wal
        Message 3 of 9 , Jun 15, 2004
          Some oak substances are water-soluble while others are alcohol-
          soluble. If I remember right, whiskey/whisky is aged at 60%abv.
          wal
          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Maxime Belair <maxime_belair@y...>
          wrote:
          > Hello,
          >
          > I tryed to get the answer by reading on
          > homedistiller but I didn't found where they talk about
          > aging on oak at high % (70-96%)
          >
          > So what's the difference in the taste, time and
          > color... if there is one of aging 1 liter of 95% with
          > a tsp of tosted oak or of aging 1 liter of 55% with a
          > tsp of the same oak?
          >
          > Thank you very much,
          >
          > Maxime belair
          >
          > __________________________________________________________
          > Lèche-vitrine ou lèche-écran ?
          > magasinage.yahoo.ca
        • tmdellinger
          ... As far as I know, no one has posted to the internet a description of experiments done to figure out the effect of proof on aging. I posted excerpts from
          Message 4 of 9 , Jun 15, 2004
            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Maxime Belair <maxime_belair@y...>
            wrote:
            > Hello,
            >
            > I tryed to get the answer by reading on
            > homedistiller but I didn't found where they talk about
            > aging on oak at high % (70-96%)
            >
            > So what's the difference in the taste, time and
            > color... if there is one of aging 1 liter of 95% with
            > a tsp of tosted oak or of aging 1 liter of 55% with a
            > tsp of the same oak?


            As far as I know, no one has posted to the internet a
            description of experiments done to figure out the effect
            of proof on aging.

            I posted excerpts from some academic studies in message
            #16392. To summarize briefly: water is required to break
            down certain components of the wood, so low proof speeds
            up this process. On the other hand, these components are
            more soluble at high proof. So 60%abv is a balance between
            these two things. You will most probably get a different taste
            depending on your %abv.

            Note that commercial distillers age at as high a proof as
            they can get away with, because barrels are expensive and
            they want to buy as few as possible. Working on a small
            scale, we have no such issues.

            Tim Dellinger
          • K&J
            saved this message from Tony some time ago and may answer your question Cheers Ken Mc Different % alcohol can extract different compounds from the oak. As
            Message 5 of 9 , Jun 15, 2004
              saved this message from Tony some time ago and may answer your question

              Cheers Ken Mc

              Different % alcohol can extract different compounds from the oak.
              As Donald once wrote to us ...

              "Oaking - Several different flavors can come from a single type of oak if
              alcohol strength is adjusted during maturation. 55%-53% will give vanillins,
              40%-50% will give a mix of vanillins and sugars, 40%-49% will give sugars.

              What I like to do is start at 55%-53% for first phase (1 to 12 months) then
              dilute to 40% (3- 12 months). In this manner I am adding sugar from the
              cells of the wood while I marry the dilution water to the whiskey. This
              results in rich vanilla oak charater with silky legs that cling to the side
              of the glass. The procedure works well with all types (chips or BBL) and
              varieties of Oak."

              I do likewise - start with a high %, then dilute down later on.
              Donald only mentions 55%, and not higher. I dont know if a higher % will
              get something diferent out, or simply help shift the vanillins faster.
              But I routinely do 75-95% soaks.

              Tony


              -------Original Message-------

              From: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
              Date: 06/16/04 00:37:55
              To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [Distillers] Re: On oak at what proof?

              Some oak substances are water-soluble while others are alcohol-
              soluble. If I remember right, whiskey/whisky is aged at 60%abv.
              wal
              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Maxime Belair <maxime_belair@y...>
              wrote:
              > Hello,
              >
              > I tryed to get the answer by reading on
              > homedistiller but I didn't found where they talk about
              > aging on oak at high % (70-96%)
              >
              > So what's the difference in the taste, time and
              > color... if there is one of aging 1 liter of 95% with
              > a tsp of tosted oak or of aging 1 liter of 55% with a
              > tsp of the same oak?
              >
              > Thank you very much,
              >
              > Maxime belair
              >
              > __________________________________________________________
              > Lèche-vitrine ou lèche-écran ?
              > magasinage.yahoo.ca



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              .

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Héctor A. Landaeta C.
              ... Hola Tim! You re wrong on that point. There s a PDF doc around, I posted it once (like 2 years ago) to the files section in the Yahoogroups page but I
              Message 6 of 9 , Jun 15, 2004
                On 6/15/04 12:45 PM, "tmdellinger" <tmdellinger@...> wrote:

                > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Maxime Belair <maxime_belair@y...>
                > wrote:
                > As far as I know, no one has posted to the internet a
                > description of experiments done to figure out the effect
                > of proof on aging.

                Hola Tim!
                You're wrong on that point. There's a PDF doc around, I posted it once
                (like 2 years ago) to the "files" section in the Yahoogroups page but I
                don't see it now. It was called something like "oaking symposium". It
                described painstakingly how oak flavors are obtained and why 58% ABV is the
                right concentration to leach most of them. I gather it was Tony (Auckland)
                who first posted the link to it (or was it Mike Nixon?). I had it in my HD
                till one day past month I was tinkering with the Unix insides of my Mac's OS
                and blew all my data.
                Anyway, it dwelt in all of the hard points but one of the capital ones (I
                soon found experimentally) is that in order to maximize oak flavor
                extraction over time you have to oxidize that chip/etanol mix. This
                normally occurs in casks as seasons and days come and go and the barrel's
                contents expand and contract with temp changes. I also found that the
                favored oak shaving or chip is lees effective (much less surface area) than
                sawing it to a fine dust. I use a friend's circular saw with a large
                toothed, thick disc and a notched stick my friend calls a "finger saver" to
                push the barrel staves well clear of my precious ten. Any carpenter shop
                can do that for you. For the oxidizing I use my regular wort/wash aerating
                stone setup in the same container where I keep the sawdust/etanol mix with
                the lid loose. Every hour of this equals to to several months of patient
                repose, so take your pick. Even so I have to tell you that, indeed, there's
                no substitute to the plain, old fashioned, wait-in-the-barrel thing, as my
                control specimen attests.
                Salud!
                --
                Hector Landaeta
                Colonia Tovar - Venezuela.
              • CornFed (Randy)
                I have that file saved here if you need it. If file space permits on the group I can send it there. it is a 693K PDF. ... ... once ...
                Message 7 of 9 , Jun 15, 2004
                  I have that file saved here if you need it. If file space permits on
                  the group I can send it there. it is a 693K PDF.

                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Héctor A. Landaeta C."
                  <coloniera@c...> wrote:
                  > On 6/15/04 12:45 PM, "tmdellinger" <tmdellinger@y...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Maxime Belair
                  <maxime_belair@y...>
                  > > wrote:
                  > > As far as I know, no one has posted to the internet a
                  > > description of experiments done to figure out the effect
                  > > of proof on aging.
                  >
                  > Hola Tim!
                  > You're wrong on that point. There's a PDF doc around, I posted it
                  once
                  > (like 2 years ago) to the "files" section in the Yahoogroups page
                  but I
                  > don't see it now. It was called something like "oaking
                  symposium". It
                  > described painstakingly how oak flavors are obtained and why 58%
                  ABV is the
                  > right concentration to leach most of them. I gather it was Tony
                  (Auckland)
                  > who first posted the link to it (or was it Mike Nixon?). I had it
                  in my HD
                  > till one day past month I was tinkering with the Unix insides of my
                  Mac's OS
                  > and blew all my data.
                  > Anyway, it dwelt in all of the hard points but one of the capital
                  ones (I
                  > soon found experimentally) is that in order to maximize oak flavor
                  > extraction over time you have to oxidize that chip/etanol mix. This
                  > normally occurs in casks as seasons and days come and go and the
                  barrel's
                  > contents expand and contract with temp changes. I also found that
                  the
                  > favored oak shaving or chip is lees effective (much less surface
                  area) than
                  > sawing it to a fine dust. I use a friend's circular saw with a
                  large
                  > toothed, thick disc and a notched stick my friend calls a "finger
                  saver" to
                  > push the barrel staves well clear of my precious ten. Any
                  carpenter shop
                  > can do that for you. For the oxidizing I use my regular wort/wash
                  aerating
                  > stone setup in the same container where I keep the sawdust/etanol
                  mix with
                  > the lid loose. Every hour of this equals to to several months of
                  patient
                  > repose, so take your pick. Even so I have to tell you that,
                  indeed, there's
                  > no substitute to the plain, old fashioned, wait-in-the-barrel
                  thing, as my
                  > control specimen attests.
                  > Salud!
                  > --
                  > Hector Landaeta
                  > Colonia Tovar - Venezuela.
                • CornFed (Randy)
                  I put that OAK PDF file in the files section. ... on ... it ... it ... my ... This ... that ... wort/wash
                  Message 8 of 9 , Jun 15, 2004
                    I put that OAK PDF file in the files section.

                    --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "CornFed (Randy)" <cornfed15@h...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > I have that file saved here if you need it. If file space permits
                    on
                    > the group I can send it there. it is a 693K PDF.
                    >
                    > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Héctor A. Landaeta C."
                    > <coloniera@c...> wrote:
                    > > On 6/15/04 12:45 PM, "tmdellinger" <tmdellinger@y...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Maxime Belair
                    > <maxime_belair@y...>
                    > > > wrote:
                    > > > As far as I know, no one has posted to the internet a
                    > > > description of experiments done to figure out the effect
                    > > > of proof on aging.
                    > >
                    > > Hola Tim!
                    > > You're wrong on that point. There's a PDF doc around, I posted
                    it
                    > once
                    > > (like 2 years ago) to the "files" section in the Yahoogroups page
                    > but I
                    > > don't see it now. It was called something like "oaking
                    > symposium". It
                    > > described painstakingly how oak flavors are obtained and why 58%
                    > ABV is the
                    > > right concentration to leach most of them. I gather it was Tony
                    > (Auckland)
                    > > who first posted the link to it (or was it Mike Nixon?). I had
                    it
                    > in my HD
                    > > till one day past month I was tinkering with the Unix insides of
                    my
                    > Mac's OS
                    > > and blew all my data.
                    > > Anyway, it dwelt in all of the hard points but one of the capital
                    > ones (I
                    > > soon found experimentally) is that in order to maximize oak flavor
                    > > extraction over time you have to oxidize that chip/etanol mix.
                    This
                    > > normally occurs in casks as seasons and days come and go and the
                    > barrel's
                    > > contents expand and contract with temp changes. I also found
                    that
                    > the
                    > > favored oak shaving or chip is lees effective (much less surface
                    > area) than
                    > > sawing it to a fine dust. I use a friend's circular saw with a
                    > large
                    > > toothed, thick disc and a notched stick my friend calls a "finger
                    > saver" to
                    > > push the barrel staves well clear of my precious ten. Any
                    > carpenter shop
                    > > can do that for you. For the oxidizing I use my regular
                    wort/wash
                    > aerating
                    > > stone setup in the same container where I keep the sawdust/etanol
                    > mix with
                    > > the lid loose. Every hour of this equals to to several months of
                    > patient
                    > > repose, so take your pick. Even so I have to tell you that,
                    > indeed, there's
                    > > no substitute to the plain, old fashioned, wait-in-the-barrel
                    > thing, as my
                    > > control specimen attests.
                    > > Salud!
                    > > --
                    > > Hector Landaeta
                    > > Colonia Tovar - Venezuela.
                  • Héctor A. Landaeta C.
                    ... Hola Randy! It couldn t hurt, you know. Let me know if you can t post it for the collective or just e-mail me the copy as an attachment to a message to
                    Message 9 of 9 , Jun 20, 2004
                      On 6/15/04 11:05 PM, "CornFed (Randy)" <cornfed15@...> wrote:

                      >
                      > I have that file saved here if you need it. If file space permits on
                      > the group I can send it there. it is a 693K PDF.

                      Hola Randy!
                      It couldn't hurt, you know. Let me know if you can't post it for the
                      collective or just e-mail me the copy as an attachment to a message to this
                      account -coloniera@...- (I've configured my ISP account to accept all
                      kinds of attachments because Mac OS so far seems impervious to viruses -go
                      figure why people prefer Wintel PC's-).
                      Salud!
                      --
                      Hector Landaeta
                      Colonia Tovar - Venezuela.
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