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RE: [Distillers] cooling water wasted

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  • Robert N
    ... Hi all, The cooling water that comes outta the condenser is about 55 degree @ about 500-1000ml a minute. I see this as a HUGE amount of energy been wasted.
    Message 1 of 15 , Apr 1, 2004
      ------------

      Hi all, The cooling water that comes outta the condenser is about 55

      degree @ about 500-1000ml a minute. I see this as a HUGE amount
      of energy been wasted. What I would like to do is use some kind of
      clever heat exchanger to concentrate and put that energy put back into
      the boiler. I am not very clever on these matters, is there anyone who's
      got some ideas on how to do this? I figure that if it is possible that once
      the distillation was equalized that i would only need a small element to
      keep things going(at the moment i am using 2000watt element). Any
      ideas would be great.

      Regards Chris (half Dutch fella trying to save on electricity bill)
      ----------------

      Hi Chris, there are a few differing ways of achieving this goal. You can use
      two elements as per Harry's explanation. Or a variac, such as the Sutronics
      device that is mentioned every other week. Then there are electronic devices
      such as a thermocouple and a PID. These ideas have been explored extensively
      previously and you would be wise to do some research of the achieves before
      jumping one way or the other.



      Yours in Spirit



      Robert



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • peter_vcb
      lower power will also lead to a far better spirit. go for the burst fired controller if you are into experimenting. go with Harrys 7-800W element otherwise. i
      Message 2 of 15 , Apr 2, 2004
        lower power will also lead to a far better spirit. go for the burst
        fired controller if you are into experimenting. go with Harrys 7-800W
        element otherwise. i now consider low power as important or more
        important that a tall column, fancy packing or high RR

        >
        > Hi all, The cooling water that comes outta the condenser is about
        55
        >
        > degree @ about 500-1000ml a minute. I see this as a HUGE amount
        > of energy been wasted. What I would like to do is use some kind of
        > clever heat exchanger to concentrate and put that energy put back
        into
        > the boiler. I am not very clever on these matters, is there anyone
        who's
        > got some ideas on how to do this? I figure that if it is possible
        that once
        > the distillation was equalized that i would only need a small
        element to
        > keep things going(at the moment i am using 2000watt element). Any
        > ideas would be great.
        >
        > Regards Chris (half Dutch fella trying to save on electricity bill)
        > ----------------
        >
        > Hi Chris, there are a few differing ways of achieving this goal.
        You can use
        > two elements as per Harry's explanation. Or a variac, such as the
        Sutronics
        > device that is mentioned every other week. Then there are
        electronic devices
        > such as a thermocouple and a PID. These ideas have been explored
        extensively
        > previously and you would be wise to do some research of the
        achieves before
        > jumping one way or the other.
        >
        >
        >
        > Yours in Spirit
        >
        >
        >
        > Robert
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Zarklan Zhaphedoix
        If you were doing multiple batches... like over a weekend you could use a sump pump or similiar pump to pump the next batch as the coolant or you could use a
        Message 3 of 15 , Apr 2, 2004
          If you were doing multiple batches... like over a weekend you could use a sump pump or similiar pump to pump the next batch as the coolant or you could use a wort chiller in line in your set up. I have been thinking of this for a while. After my super still construction I am planning on a closed loop cooling system. Currently I use 32 gallon trash cans as fermentors. I am thinking on using a wal mart bilge pump in a recycling container filled with 10 gallons of water. From here the water will travel to the cooling condenser for the still. Then the water will travel a few feet and go into my wort chiller where some heat will be transferred to the next batch of sugar wash. The coolant will then travel into the recycling basin and then back through the pump. I think this will work and I already have the immersion wortchiller.

          Does this sound like a reasonable plan to you? I think it conserves water and hopefully will have enough cooling effect.

          My wort chiller is a 50 foot copper coil of 1/4inch pipe. The flow through the chiller might be too slow so I am also thinking of a bypass so that not all of the water running through the pump has to go to the heat exchanger.

          Robert N <dinks_c@...> wrote:


          ------------

          Hi all, The cooling water that comes outta the condenser is about 55

          degree @ about 500-1000ml a minute. I see this as a HUGE amount
          of energy been wasted. What I would like to do is use some kind of
          clever heat exchanger to concentrate and put that energy put back into
          the boiler. I am not very clever on these matters, is there anyone who's
          got some ideas on how to do this? I figure that if it is possible that once
          the distillation was equalized that i would only need a small element to
          keep things going(at the moment i am using 2000watt element). Any
          ideas would be great.

          Regards Chris (half Dutch fella trying to save on electricity bill)
          ----------------

          Hi Chris, there are a few differing ways of achieving this goal. You can use
          two elements as per Harry's explanation. Or a variac, such as the Sutronics
          device that is mentioned every other week. Then there are electronic devices
          such as a thermocouple and a PID. These ideas have been explored extensively
          previously and you would be wise to do some research of the achieves before
          jumping one way or the other.



          Yours in Spirit



          Robert



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          Distillers list archives : http://archive.nnytech.net/
          FAQ and other information at http://homedistiller.org



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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Gilamander1@aol.com
          Howdy Folks! This is my first posting. Here in The Dark Corner of SC, (South Carolina s moonshine capital) some of the old timers just use a 50 foot coil of
          Message 4 of 15 , Apr 2, 2004
            Howdy Folks!
            This is my first posting. Here in "The Dark Corner" of SC, (South Carolina's
            moonshine capital) some of the old timers just use a 50 foot coil of 3/8"
            copper tubing on their stills,
            with no cooling water necessary. By the time the vapor gets to the end of the
            coil, it has all
            condensed to liquid. It seems to me that the best way to conserve H2O is to
            turn down the fire a bit, and not use any!


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Robert N
            _____ From: Zarklan Zhaphedoix [mailto:fermentsindarkness@yahoo.com] If you were doing multiple batches... like over a weekend you could use a sump pump or
            Message 5 of 15 , Apr 2, 2004
              _____

              From: Zarklan Zhaphedoix [mailto:fermentsindarkness@...]



              If you were doing multiple batches... like over a weekend you could use a
              sump pump or similiar pump to pump the next batch as the coolant or you
              could use a wort chiller in line in your set up. I have been thinking of
              this for a while. After my super still construction I am planning on a
              closed loop cooling system. Currently I use 32 gallon trash cans as
              fermentors. I am thinking on using a wal mart bilge pump in a recycling
              container filled with 10 gallons of water. From here the water will travel
              to the cooling condenser for the still. Then the water will travel a few
              feet and go into my wort chiller where some heat will be transferred to the
              next batch of sugar wash. The coolant will then travel into the recycling
              basin and then back through the pump. I think this will work and I already
              have the immersion wortchiller.

              Does this sound like a reasonable plan to you? I think it conserves water
              and hopefully will have enough cooling effect.

              My wort chiller is a 50 foot copper coil of 1/4inch pipe. The flow through
              the chiller might be too slow so I am also thinking of a bypass so that not
              all of the water running through the pump has to go to the heat exchanger.
              ______________________________________


              Robert N <dinks_c@...> answered with:



              The problem with doing this is how many multiple fermented batches’ do you
              have on hand. Ok for the first but the second or last one requires a
              different setup or the very least to fill the now empty with water. The
              other thing to consider here is have you filtered the wort and removed the
              solids prior to using it as a coolant? It would also cause some evaporation
              of the alcohol in that wash, which should be ok so long as the fermenter
              remains sealed.



              Something you may come across using your wort chiller given that its “50
              foot of ¼” tube” is resistance. To get a pump to lift fluid the height of
              the condenser, push a fluid through that length of ¼” tube, plus your
              condenser and maintain the flow rate, will be the challenge. Mains pressure
              water is one thing, using a pump to do this usually causes the pump to fail
              prematurely.



              This is the primary reason I went to a shotgun condenser, the pond pump I
              use has 1” BSP fittings and hose. To reduce the resistance on the pump I had
              to go with the bigger hose and fittings, this then required a different
              style of condenser. Because I had an offset head on my refractionating
              still, I also had to build another head (EL), because the tendency of the
              weight of the water, condenser plus the coolant hoses would have caused the
              still to topple over.



              Obviously everyone’s needs are different; you may find that the setup you
              have described will work well. I offer the above comments to provoke thought
              and so you may avoid some pitfalls. Whichever way you decide to go, I wish
              you luck. Please let us know of your trials and tribulations and successes.



              Yours in Spirit



              Robert










              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • William Thompson
              ... I built a 1m reflux using the world class still plans http://www.moonshine-still.com/ At the bottom of the condensor outlet I soldered a 1/2 union which
              Message 6 of 15 , Apr 3, 2004
                --- Gilamander1@... wrote:
                > Howdy Folks!
                > This is my first posting. Here in "The Dark Corner"
                > of SC, (South Carolina's
                > moonshine capital) some of the old timers just use a
                > 50 foot coil of 3/8"
                > copper tubing on their stills,
                > with no cooling water necessary. By the time the
                > vapor gets to the end of the
                > coil, it has all
                > condensed to liquid. It seems to me that the best
                > way to conserve H2O is to
                > turn down the fire a bit, and not use any!

                I built a 1m reflux using the world class still plans
                http://www.moonshine-still.com/
                At the bottom of the condensor outlet I soldered a
                1/2" union which is where I attach my collection tube.
                It is 1/2" copper pipe that runs about 4 feet out,
                away from the propane fire into a collection device.

                When I run cooling through the tubes, the stillhead
                temperature drops from 78 C to about 40 C; I havn't
                managed to get enough heat into the boiler to handle
                full cooling power. What I do is fill the condensor
                with cool water and turn off the pump white I'm
                running at 78. Every once in a while I'll hit the pump
                for a few seconds to run through one volume of cool
                water. Anyway, the length of cool pipe attached to the
                union acts as a second condensor. I probably wouldn't
                ever even need to turn my coolant pump on, unless I
                wanted 100% reflux.

                __________________________________
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              • Zarklan Zhaphedoix
                Thanks. I think the resistance will be an issue. When I have used my wort chiller to cool wort for fermentation my connection has just been to friction fit
                Message 7 of 15 , Apr 3, 2004
                  Thanks. I think the resistance will be an issue. When I have used my wort chiller to cool wort for fermentation my connection has just been to friction fit some clear hose that on one hand has a brass barb and clamp. At least a couple of times during the cooling I have to re-attach the hose.

                  I am now thinking about a cooling manifold with additional circuits where I could preheat wash or run it through the circuit with a transmission cooler and two muffin fans.




                  Robert N <dinks_c@...> wrote:




                  _____

                  From: Zarklan Zhaphedoix [mailto:fermentsindarkness@...]



                  If you were doing multiple batches... like over a weekend you could use a
                  sump pump or similiar pump to pump the next batch as the coolant or you
                  could use a wort chiller in line in your set up. I have been thinking of
                  this for a while. After my super still construction I am planning on a
                  closed loop cooling system. Currently I use 32 gallon trash cans as
                  fermentors. I am thinking on using a wal mart bilge pump in a recycling
                  container filled with 10 gallons of water. From here the water will travel
                  to the cooling condenser for the still. Then the water will travel a few
                  feet and go into my wort chiller where some heat will be transferred to the
                  next batch of sugar wash. The coolant will then travel into the recycling
                  basin and then back through the pump. I think this will work and I already
                  have the immersion wortchiller.

                  Does this sound like a reasonable plan to you? I think it conserves water
                  and hopefully will have enough cooling effect.

                  My wort chiller is a 50 foot copper coil of 1/4inch pipe. The flow through
                  the chiller might be too slow so I am also thinking of a bypass so that not
                  all of the water running through the pump has to go to the heat exchanger.
                  ______________________________________


                  Robert N <dinks_c@...> answered with:



                  The problem with doing this is how many multiple fermented batches� do you
                  have on hand. Ok for the first but the second or last one requires a
                  different setup or the very least to fill the now empty with water. The
                  other thing to consider here is have you filtered the wort and removed the
                  solids prior to using it as a coolant? It would also cause some evaporation
                  of the alcohol in that wash, which should be ok so long as the fermenter
                  remains sealed.



                  Something you may come across using your wort chiller given that its �50
                  foot of �� tube� is resistance. To get a pump to lift fluid the height of
                  the condenser, push a fluid through that length of �� tube, plus your
                  condenser and maintain the flow rate, will be the challenge. Mains pressure
                  water is one thing, using a pump to do this usually causes the pump to fail
                  prematurely.



                  This is the primary reason I went to a shotgun condenser, the pond pump I
                  use has 1� BSP fittings and hose. To reduce the resistance on the pump I had
                  to go with the bigger hose and fittings, this then required a different
                  style of condenser. Because I had an offset head on my refractionating
                  still, I also had to build another head (EL), because the tendency of the
                  weight of the water, condenser plus the coolant hoses would have caused the
                  still to topple over.



                  Obviously everyone�s needs are different; you may find that the setup you
                  have described will work well. I offer the above comments to provoke thought
                  and so you may avoid some pitfalls. Whichever way you decide to go, I wish
                  you luck. Please let us know of your trials and tribulations and successes.



                  Yours in Spirit



                  Robert










                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                  Distillers list archives : http://archive.nnytech.net/
                  FAQ and other information at http://homedistiller.org



                  ---------------------------------
                  Yahoo! Groups Links

                  To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Distillers/

                  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  Distillers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



                  ---------------------------------
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                  Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway - Enter today

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • onemorejanedoe
                  Hey now! Don t just tell us about it, send up a pic! Yah, that s it.... Jane ... ng on their stills,
                  Message 8 of 15 , Apr 4, 2004
                    Hey now! Don't just tell us about it, send up a pic!
                    Yah, that's it....
                    Jane


                    In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, William Thompson <txbajabill@y...> wrote:
                    >
                    > --- Gilamander1@a... wrote:
                    > > Howdy Folks!
                    > > This is my first posting. Here in "The Dark Corner"
                    > > of SC, (South Carolina's
                    > > moonshine capital) some of the old timers just use a
                    > > 50 foot coil of 3/8"
                    > > copper tubi
                    ng on their stills,
                  • gilamander7734
                    ... The distillation of alchohol is Highly frowned upon here in The Dark Corner so not many will allow pics. to be taken. The folks using the waterless
                    Message 9 of 15 , Apr 5, 2004
                      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "onemorejanedoe"
                      <onemorejanedoe@y...> wrote:
                      > Hey now! Don't just tell us about it, send up a pic!
                      > Yah, that's it....
                      > Jane
                      >
                      >
                      > In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, William Thompson <txbajabill@y...>
                      wrote:
                      > >
                      > > --- Gilamander1@a... wrote:
                      The distillation of alchohol is Highly frowned upon here in "The Dark
                      Corner" so not many will allow pics. to be taken. The folks using the
                      waterless method i had mentioned simply get a 50 to 60 foot coil of
                      3/8" copper tubing (from the hardware store) and stretch it out a bit
                      to allow good air circulation around the coil (leaving the original
                      coil shape virtually intact). Then they attach one end to the still
                      (Pot stills are the norm, some with thumper kegs)
                      using a flare fitting, or compression fitting. After a run, they
                      collapse the coil back down to it's fresh from the hardware store
                      shape 'till next run. While distilling, they shoot for a slow drip
                      from the "worm" and adjust the heat source (wood fire or propane)
                      acordingly. Most of the moonshine made here is corn whiskey
                      (darn good too) and sold at around 95 to 105 proof.
                    • gilamander7734
                      ... The distillation of alchohol is Highly frowned upon here in The Dark Corner so not many will allow pics. to be taken. The folks using the waterless
                      Message 10 of 15 , Apr 5, 2004
                        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "onemorejanedoe"
                        <onemorejanedoe@y...> wrote:
                        > Hey now! Don't just tell us about it, send up a pic!
                        > Yah, that's it....
                        > Jane
                        >
                        >
                        > In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, William Thompson <txbajabill@y...>
                        wrote:
                        > >
                        > > --- Gilamander1@a... wrote:
                        The distillation of alchohol is Highly frowned upon here in "The Dark
                        Corner" so not many will allow pics. to be taken. The folks using the
                        waterless method i had mentioned simply get a 50 to 60 foot coil of
                        3/8" copper tubing (from the hardware store) and stretch it out a bit
                        to allow good air circulation around the coil (leaving the original
                        coil shape virtually intact). Then they attach one end to the still
                        (Pot stills are the norm, some with thumper kegs)
                        using a flare fitting, or compression fitting. After a run, they
                        collapse the coil back down to it's fresh from the hardware store
                        shape 'till next run. While distilling, they shoot for a slow drip
                        from the "worm" and adjust the heat source (wood fire or propane)
                        acordingly. Most of the moonshine made here is corn whiskey
                        (darn good too) and sold at around 95 to 105 proof.
                      • Sven Pfitt
                        With lots of air circulation, it will work well for a pot still. Column stills are a differnt animal. You could probably rig some type of convection cooling
                        Message 11 of 15 , Apr 5, 2004
                          With lots of air circulation, it will work well for a pot still.

                          Column stills are a differnt animal. You could probably rig some type
                          of convection cooling for them, but they take any where from 4 to 20X
                          as much cooling as a pot still of the same capacity.

                          I grew up in Lexington county, outside Cayce.

                          Sven

                          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "gilamander7734"
                          <Gilamander1@a...> wrote:
                          > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "onemorejanedoe"
                          > <onemorejanedoe@y...> wrote:
                          > > Hey now! Don't just tell us about it, send up a pic!
                          > > Yah, that's it....
                          > > Jane
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, William Thompson <txbajabill@y...>
                          > wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > --- Gilamander1@a... wrote:
                          > The distillation of alchohol is Highly frowned upon here in "The
                          Dark
                          > Corner" so not many will allow pics. to be taken. The folks using
                          the
                          > waterless method i had mentioned simply get a 50 to 60 foot coil of
                          > 3/8" copper tubing (from the hardware store) and stretch it out a
                          bit
                          > to allow good air circulation around the coil (leaving the original
                          > coil shape virtually intact). Then they attach one end to the still
                          > (Pot stills are the norm, some with thumper kegs)
                          > using a flare fitting, or compression fitting. After a run, they
                          > collapse the coil back down to it's fresh from the hardware store
                          > shape 'till next run. While distilling, they shoot for a slow drip
                          > from the "worm" and adjust the heat source (wood fire or propane)
                          > acordingly. Most of the moonshine made here is corn whiskey
                          > (darn good too) and sold at around 95 to 105 proof.
                        • gilamander7734
                          ... type ... 20X ... stills, but it would seem to me that you would require only enough heat to get just past the point of total reflux in the column. At that
                          Message 12 of 15 , Apr 6, 2004
                            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Sven Pfitt" <the_gimp98@h...>
                            wrote:
                            > With lots of air circulation, it will work well for a pot still.
                            >
                            > Column stills are a differnt animal. You could probably rig some
                            type
                            > of convection cooling for them, but they take any where from 4 to
                            20X
                            > as much cooling as a pot still of the same capacity.
                            >
                            > I grew up in Lexington county, outside Cayce.
                            >
                            > Sven
                            > Howdy Sven,
                            > I Don't know much at all about fractional distillation or column
                            stills, but it would seem to me that you would require only enough
                            heat to get just past the point of total reflux in the column. At
                            that point I would think the cooling requirements for the worm or
                            condenser should be about the same for either type of still.
                            (Maybe I'm wrong on this point, I'm just theorizing here.)
                            You would still need water for the reflux condenser in the column
                            still (or a very tall column could possibly work on air cooling)
                            I am thinking that the cooling needed is directly proportional
                            to the heat being applied to the system, therefore using the minimum
                            heating possible would minimize the cooling required. The 4 to 20X
                            cooling you stated must be what is being used for reflux?
                            Ever catch any Pine Barrens Treefrogs while in Lexington County?
                            Have a good one, Charlie
                          • gilamander7734
                            ... type ... 20X ... stills, but it would seem to me that you would require only enough heat to get just past the point of total reflux in the column. At that
                            Message 13 of 15 , Apr 6, 2004
                              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Sven Pfitt" <the_gimp98@h...>
                              wrote:
                              > With lots of air circulation, it will work well for a pot still.
                              >
                              > Column stills are a differnt animal. You could probably rig some
                              type
                              > of convection cooling for them, but they take any where from 4 to
                              20X
                              > as much cooling as a pot still of the same capacity.
                              >
                              > I grew up in Lexington county, outside Cayce.
                              >
                              > Sven
                              > Howdy Sven,
                              > I Don't know much at all about fractional distillation or column
                              stills, but it would seem to me that you would require only enough
                              heat to get just past the point of total reflux in the column. At
                              that point I would think the cooling requirements for the worm or
                              condenser should be about the same for either type of still.
                              (Maybe I'm wrong on this point, I'm just theorizing here.)
                              You would still need water for the reflux condenser in the column
                              still (or a very tall column could possibly work on air cooling)
                              I am thinking that the cooling needed is directly proportional
                              to the heat being applied to the system, therefore using the minimum
                              heating possible would minimize the cooling required. The 4 to 20X
                              cooling you stated must be what is being used for reflux?
                              Ever catch any Pine Barrens Treefrogs while in Lexington County?
                              Have a good one, Charlie
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