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Re: cooling water wasted

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  • Harry
    ... into ... anyone who s ... that once ... element to ... Goedendag Chris, Simple solution. Use two elements. Your existing 2000W and another of around 700
    Message 1 of 15 , Apr 1, 2004
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      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "kiwi2002001" <chrissa_am@h...>
      wrote:
      > Hi all, The cooling water that comes outta the condenser is about
      > 55degree @ about 500-1000ml a minute. I see this as a HUGE amount
      > of energy been wasted. What I would like to do is use some kind of
      > clever heat exchanger to concentrate and put that energy put back
      into
      > the boiler. I am not very clever on these matters, is there
      anyone who's
      > got some ideas on how to do this? I figure that if it is possible
      that once
      > the distillation was equalized that i would only need a small
      element to
      > keep things going(at the moment i am using 2000watt element). Any
      > ideas would be great.
      >
      > Regards Chris(half dutch fella trying to save on electricity bill)


      Goedendag Chris,
      Simple solution. Use two elements. Your existing 2000W and another
      of around 700 or 800 watt. Use both to bring to boiling point.
      Kill the 2000w. Run on the smaller element. There's plenty of info
      here if you do a search.
      Re the water. Recycle it. I've got a diagram here...
      http://www.geocities.com/gnikomson2000/recycled_water.jpg
      and yes I do use it with my rig. Works perfectly!
      HTH
      Slainte!
      regards Harry
    • Robert N
      ... Hi all, The cooling water that comes outta the condenser is about 55 degree @ about 500-1000ml a minute. I see this as a HUGE amount of energy been wasted.
      Message 2 of 15 , Apr 1, 2004
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        ------------

        Hi all, The cooling water that comes outta the condenser is about 55

        degree @ about 500-1000ml a minute. I see this as a HUGE amount
        of energy been wasted. What I would like to do is use some kind of
        clever heat exchanger to concentrate and put that energy put back into
        the boiler. I am not very clever on these matters, is there anyone who's
        got some ideas on how to do this? I figure that if it is possible that once
        the distillation was equalized that i would only need a small element to
        keep things going(at the moment i am using 2000watt element). Any
        ideas would be great.

        Regards Chris (half Dutch fella trying to save on electricity bill)
        ----------------

        Hi Chris, there are a few differing ways of achieving this goal. You can use
        two elements as per Harry's explanation. Or a variac, such as the Sutronics
        device that is mentioned every other week. Then there are electronic devices
        such as a thermocouple and a PID. These ideas have been explored extensively
        previously and you would be wise to do some research of the achieves before
        jumping one way or the other.



        Yours in Spirit



        Robert



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • peter_vcb
        lower power will also lead to a far better spirit. go for the burst fired controller if you are into experimenting. go with Harrys 7-800W element otherwise. i
        Message 3 of 15 , Apr 2, 2004
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          lower power will also lead to a far better spirit. go for the burst
          fired controller if you are into experimenting. go with Harrys 7-800W
          element otherwise. i now consider low power as important or more
          important that a tall column, fancy packing or high RR

          >
          > Hi all, The cooling water that comes outta the condenser is about
          55
          >
          > degree @ about 500-1000ml a minute. I see this as a HUGE amount
          > of energy been wasted. What I would like to do is use some kind of
          > clever heat exchanger to concentrate and put that energy put back
          into
          > the boiler. I am not very clever on these matters, is there anyone
          who's
          > got some ideas on how to do this? I figure that if it is possible
          that once
          > the distillation was equalized that i would only need a small
          element to
          > keep things going(at the moment i am using 2000watt element). Any
          > ideas would be great.
          >
          > Regards Chris (half Dutch fella trying to save on electricity bill)
          > ----------------
          >
          > Hi Chris, there are a few differing ways of achieving this goal.
          You can use
          > two elements as per Harry's explanation. Or a variac, such as the
          Sutronics
          > device that is mentioned every other week. Then there are
          electronic devices
          > such as a thermocouple and a PID. These ideas have been explored
          extensively
          > previously and you would be wise to do some research of the
          achieves before
          > jumping one way or the other.
          >
          >
          >
          > Yours in Spirit
          >
          >
          >
          > Robert
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Zarklan Zhaphedoix
          If you were doing multiple batches... like over a weekend you could use a sump pump or similiar pump to pump the next batch as the coolant or you could use a
          Message 4 of 15 , Apr 2, 2004
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            If you were doing multiple batches... like over a weekend you could use a sump pump or similiar pump to pump the next batch as the coolant or you could use a wort chiller in line in your set up. I have been thinking of this for a while. After my super still construction I am planning on a closed loop cooling system. Currently I use 32 gallon trash cans as fermentors. I am thinking on using a wal mart bilge pump in a recycling container filled with 10 gallons of water. From here the water will travel to the cooling condenser for the still. Then the water will travel a few feet and go into my wort chiller where some heat will be transferred to the next batch of sugar wash. The coolant will then travel into the recycling basin and then back through the pump. I think this will work and I already have the immersion wortchiller.

            Does this sound like a reasonable plan to you? I think it conserves water and hopefully will have enough cooling effect.

            My wort chiller is a 50 foot copper coil of 1/4inch pipe. The flow through the chiller might be too slow so I am also thinking of a bypass so that not all of the water running through the pump has to go to the heat exchanger.

            Robert N <dinks_c@...> wrote:


            ------------

            Hi all, The cooling water that comes outta the condenser is about 55

            degree @ about 500-1000ml a minute. I see this as a HUGE amount
            of energy been wasted. What I would like to do is use some kind of
            clever heat exchanger to concentrate and put that energy put back into
            the boiler. I am not very clever on these matters, is there anyone who's
            got some ideas on how to do this? I figure that if it is possible that once
            the distillation was equalized that i would only need a small element to
            keep things going(at the moment i am using 2000watt element). Any
            ideas would be great.

            Regards Chris (half Dutch fella trying to save on electricity bill)
            ----------------

            Hi Chris, there are a few differing ways of achieving this goal. You can use
            two elements as per Harry's explanation. Or a variac, such as the Sutronics
            device that is mentioned every other week. Then there are electronic devices
            such as a thermocouple and a PID. These ideas have been explored extensively
            previously and you would be wise to do some research of the achieves before
            jumping one way or the other.



            Yours in Spirit



            Robert



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



            Distillers list archives : http://archive.nnytech.net/
            FAQ and other information at http://homedistiller.org



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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Gilamander1@aol.com
            Howdy Folks! This is my first posting. Here in The Dark Corner of SC, (South Carolina s moonshine capital) some of the old timers just use a 50 foot coil of
            Message 5 of 15 , Apr 2, 2004
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              Howdy Folks!
              This is my first posting. Here in "The Dark Corner" of SC, (South Carolina's
              moonshine capital) some of the old timers just use a 50 foot coil of 3/8"
              copper tubing on their stills,
              with no cooling water necessary. By the time the vapor gets to the end of the
              coil, it has all
              condensed to liquid. It seems to me that the best way to conserve H2O is to
              turn down the fire a bit, and not use any!


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Robert N
              _____ From: Zarklan Zhaphedoix [mailto:fermentsindarkness@yahoo.com] If you were doing multiple batches... like over a weekend you could use a sump pump or
              Message 6 of 15 , Apr 2, 2004
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                _____

                From: Zarklan Zhaphedoix [mailto:fermentsindarkness@...]



                If you were doing multiple batches... like over a weekend you could use a
                sump pump or similiar pump to pump the next batch as the coolant or you
                could use a wort chiller in line in your set up. I have been thinking of
                this for a while. After my super still construction I am planning on a
                closed loop cooling system. Currently I use 32 gallon trash cans as
                fermentors. I am thinking on using a wal mart bilge pump in a recycling
                container filled with 10 gallons of water. From here the water will travel
                to the cooling condenser for the still. Then the water will travel a few
                feet and go into my wort chiller where some heat will be transferred to the
                next batch of sugar wash. The coolant will then travel into the recycling
                basin and then back through the pump. I think this will work and I already
                have the immersion wortchiller.

                Does this sound like a reasonable plan to you? I think it conserves water
                and hopefully will have enough cooling effect.

                My wort chiller is a 50 foot copper coil of 1/4inch pipe. The flow through
                the chiller might be too slow so I am also thinking of a bypass so that not
                all of the water running through the pump has to go to the heat exchanger.
                ______________________________________


                Robert N <dinks_c@...> answered with:



                The problem with doing this is how many multiple fermented batches’ do you
                have on hand. Ok for the first but the second or last one requires a
                different setup or the very least to fill the now empty with water. The
                other thing to consider here is have you filtered the wort and removed the
                solids prior to using it as a coolant? It would also cause some evaporation
                of the alcohol in that wash, which should be ok so long as the fermenter
                remains sealed.



                Something you may come across using your wort chiller given that its “50
                foot of ¼” tube” is resistance. To get a pump to lift fluid the height of
                the condenser, push a fluid through that length of ¼” tube, plus your
                condenser and maintain the flow rate, will be the challenge. Mains pressure
                water is one thing, using a pump to do this usually causes the pump to fail
                prematurely.



                This is the primary reason I went to a shotgun condenser, the pond pump I
                use has 1” BSP fittings and hose. To reduce the resistance on the pump I had
                to go with the bigger hose and fittings, this then required a different
                style of condenser. Because I had an offset head on my refractionating
                still, I also had to build another head (EL), because the tendency of the
                weight of the water, condenser plus the coolant hoses would have caused the
                still to topple over.



                Obviously everyone’s needs are different; you may find that the setup you
                have described will work well. I offer the above comments to provoke thought
                and so you may avoid some pitfalls. Whichever way you decide to go, I wish
                you luck. Please let us know of your trials and tribulations and successes.



                Yours in Spirit



                Robert










                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • William Thompson
                ... I built a 1m reflux using the world class still plans http://www.moonshine-still.com/ At the bottom of the condensor outlet I soldered a 1/2 union which
                Message 7 of 15 , Apr 3, 2004
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                  --- Gilamander1@... wrote:
                  > Howdy Folks!
                  > This is my first posting. Here in "The Dark Corner"
                  > of SC, (South Carolina's
                  > moonshine capital) some of the old timers just use a
                  > 50 foot coil of 3/8"
                  > copper tubing on their stills,
                  > with no cooling water necessary. By the time the
                  > vapor gets to the end of the
                  > coil, it has all
                  > condensed to liquid. It seems to me that the best
                  > way to conserve H2O is to
                  > turn down the fire a bit, and not use any!

                  I built a 1m reflux using the world class still plans
                  http://www.moonshine-still.com/
                  At the bottom of the condensor outlet I soldered a
                  1/2" union which is where I attach my collection tube.
                  It is 1/2" copper pipe that runs about 4 feet out,
                  away from the propane fire into a collection device.

                  When I run cooling through the tubes, the stillhead
                  temperature drops from 78 C to about 40 C; I havn't
                  managed to get enough heat into the boiler to handle
                  full cooling power. What I do is fill the condensor
                  with cool water and turn off the pump white I'm
                  running at 78. Every once in a while I'll hit the pump
                  for a few seconds to run through one volume of cool
                  water. Anyway, the length of cool pipe attached to the
                  union acts as a second condensor. I probably wouldn't
                  ever even need to turn my coolant pump on, unless I
                  wanted 100% reflux.

                  __________________________________
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                • Zarklan Zhaphedoix
                  Thanks. I think the resistance will be an issue. When I have used my wort chiller to cool wort for fermentation my connection has just been to friction fit
                  Message 8 of 15 , Apr 3, 2004
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                    Thanks. I think the resistance will be an issue. When I have used my wort chiller to cool wort for fermentation my connection has just been to friction fit some clear hose that on one hand has a brass barb and clamp. At least a couple of times during the cooling I have to re-attach the hose.

                    I am now thinking about a cooling manifold with additional circuits where I could preheat wash or run it through the circuit with a transmission cooler and two muffin fans.




                    Robert N <dinks_c@...> wrote:




                    _____

                    From: Zarklan Zhaphedoix [mailto:fermentsindarkness@...]



                    If you were doing multiple batches... like over a weekend you could use a
                    sump pump or similiar pump to pump the next batch as the coolant or you
                    could use a wort chiller in line in your set up. I have been thinking of
                    this for a while. After my super still construction I am planning on a
                    closed loop cooling system. Currently I use 32 gallon trash cans as
                    fermentors. I am thinking on using a wal mart bilge pump in a recycling
                    container filled with 10 gallons of water. From here the water will travel
                    to the cooling condenser for the still. Then the water will travel a few
                    feet and go into my wort chiller where some heat will be transferred to the
                    next batch of sugar wash. The coolant will then travel into the recycling
                    basin and then back through the pump. I think this will work and I already
                    have the immersion wortchiller.

                    Does this sound like a reasonable plan to you? I think it conserves water
                    and hopefully will have enough cooling effect.

                    My wort chiller is a 50 foot copper coil of 1/4inch pipe. The flow through
                    the chiller might be too slow so I am also thinking of a bypass so that not
                    all of the water running through the pump has to go to the heat exchanger.
                    ______________________________________


                    Robert N <dinks_c@...> answered with:



                    The problem with doing this is how many multiple fermented batches� do you
                    have on hand. Ok for the first but the second or last one requires a
                    different setup or the very least to fill the now empty with water. The
                    other thing to consider here is have you filtered the wort and removed the
                    solids prior to using it as a coolant? It would also cause some evaporation
                    of the alcohol in that wash, which should be ok so long as the fermenter
                    remains sealed.



                    Something you may come across using your wort chiller given that its �50
                    foot of �� tube� is resistance. To get a pump to lift fluid the height of
                    the condenser, push a fluid through that length of �� tube, plus your
                    condenser and maintain the flow rate, will be the challenge. Mains pressure
                    water is one thing, using a pump to do this usually causes the pump to fail
                    prematurely.



                    This is the primary reason I went to a shotgun condenser, the pond pump I
                    use has 1� BSP fittings and hose. To reduce the resistance on the pump I had
                    to go with the bigger hose and fittings, this then required a different
                    style of condenser. Because I had an offset head on my refractionating
                    still, I also had to build another head (EL), because the tendency of the
                    weight of the water, condenser plus the coolant hoses would have caused the
                    still to topple over.



                    Obviously everyone�s needs are different; you may find that the setup you
                    have described will work well. I offer the above comments to provoke thought
                    and so you may avoid some pitfalls. Whichever way you decide to go, I wish
                    you luck. Please let us know of your trials and tribulations and successes.



                    Yours in Spirit



                    Robert










                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                    Distillers list archives : http://archive.nnytech.net/
                    FAQ and other information at http://homedistiller.org



                    ---------------------------------
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                    To visit your group on the web, go to:
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Distillers/

                    To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



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                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • onemorejanedoe
                    Hey now! Don t just tell us about it, send up a pic! Yah, that s it.... Jane ... ng on their stills,
                    Message 9 of 15 , Apr 4, 2004
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                      Hey now! Don't just tell us about it, send up a pic!
                      Yah, that's it....
                      Jane


                      In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, William Thompson <txbajabill@y...> wrote:
                      >
                      > --- Gilamander1@a... wrote:
                      > > Howdy Folks!
                      > > This is my first posting. Here in "The Dark Corner"
                      > > of SC, (South Carolina's
                      > > moonshine capital) some of the old timers just use a
                      > > 50 foot coil of 3/8"
                      > > copper tubi
                      ng on their stills,
                    • gilamander7734
                      ... The distillation of alchohol is Highly frowned upon here in The Dark Corner so not many will allow pics. to be taken. The folks using the waterless
                      Message 10 of 15 , Apr 5, 2004
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                        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "onemorejanedoe"
                        <onemorejanedoe@y...> wrote:
                        > Hey now! Don't just tell us about it, send up a pic!
                        > Yah, that's it....
                        > Jane
                        >
                        >
                        > In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, William Thompson <txbajabill@y...>
                        wrote:
                        > >
                        > > --- Gilamander1@a... wrote:
                        The distillation of alchohol is Highly frowned upon here in "The Dark
                        Corner" so not many will allow pics. to be taken. The folks using the
                        waterless method i had mentioned simply get a 50 to 60 foot coil of
                        3/8" copper tubing (from the hardware store) and stretch it out a bit
                        to allow good air circulation around the coil (leaving the original
                        coil shape virtually intact). Then they attach one end to the still
                        (Pot stills are the norm, some with thumper kegs)
                        using a flare fitting, or compression fitting. After a run, they
                        collapse the coil back down to it's fresh from the hardware store
                        shape 'till next run. While distilling, they shoot for a slow drip
                        from the "worm" and adjust the heat source (wood fire or propane)
                        acordingly. Most of the moonshine made here is corn whiskey
                        (darn good too) and sold at around 95 to 105 proof.
                      • gilamander7734
                        ... The distillation of alchohol is Highly frowned upon here in The Dark Corner so not many will allow pics. to be taken. The folks using the waterless
                        Message 11 of 15 , Apr 5, 2004
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                          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "onemorejanedoe"
                          <onemorejanedoe@y...> wrote:
                          > Hey now! Don't just tell us about it, send up a pic!
                          > Yah, that's it....
                          > Jane
                          >
                          >
                          > In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, William Thompson <txbajabill@y...>
                          wrote:
                          > >
                          > > --- Gilamander1@a... wrote:
                          The distillation of alchohol is Highly frowned upon here in "The Dark
                          Corner" so not many will allow pics. to be taken. The folks using the
                          waterless method i had mentioned simply get a 50 to 60 foot coil of
                          3/8" copper tubing (from the hardware store) and stretch it out a bit
                          to allow good air circulation around the coil (leaving the original
                          coil shape virtually intact). Then they attach one end to the still
                          (Pot stills are the norm, some with thumper kegs)
                          using a flare fitting, or compression fitting. After a run, they
                          collapse the coil back down to it's fresh from the hardware store
                          shape 'till next run. While distilling, they shoot for a slow drip
                          from the "worm" and adjust the heat source (wood fire or propane)
                          acordingly. Most of the moonshine made here is corn whiskey
                          (darn good too) and sold at around 95 to 105 proof.
                        • Sven Pfitt
                          With lots of air circulation, it will work well for a pot still. Column stills are a differnt animal. You could probably rig some type of convection cooling
                          Message 12 of 15 , Apr 5, 2004
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                            With lots of air circulation, it will work well for a pot still.

                            Column stills are a differnt animal. You could probably rig some type
                            of convection cooling for them, but they take any where from 4 to 20X
                            as much cooling as a pot still of the same capacity.

                            I grew up in Lexington county, outside Cayce.

                            Sven

                            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "gilamander7734"
                            <Gilamander1@a...> wrote:
                            > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "onemorejanedoe"
                            > <onemorejanedoe@y...> wrote:
                            > > Hey now! Don't just tell us about it, send up a pic!
                            > > Yah, that's it....
                            > > Jane
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, William Thompson <txbajabill@y...>
                            > wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > --- Gilamander1@a... wrote:
                            > The distillation of alchohol is Highly frowned upon here in "The
                            Dark
                            > Corner" so not many will allow pics. to be taken. The folks using
                            the
                            > waterless method i had mentioned simply get a 50 to 60 foot coil of
                            > 3/8" copper tubing (from the hardware store) and stretch it out a
                            bit
                            > to allow good air circulation around the coil (leaving the original
                            > coil shape virtually intact). Then they attach one end to the still
                            > (Pot stills are the norm, some with thumper kegs)
                            > using a flare fitting, or compression fitting. After a run, they
                            > collapse the coil back down to it's fresh from the hardware store
                            > shape 'till next run. While distilling, they shoot for a slow drip
                            > from the "worm" and adjust the heat source (wood fire or propane)
                            > acordingly. Most of the moonshine made here is corn whiskey
                            > (darn good too) and sold at around 95 to 105 proof.
                          • gilamander7734
                            ... type ... 20X ... stills, but it would seem to me that you would require only enough heat to get just past the point of total reflux in the column. At that
                            Message 13 of 15 , Apr 6, 2004
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                              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Sven Pfitt" <the_gimp98@h...>
                              wrote:
                              > With lots of air circulation, it will work well for a pot still.
                              >
                              > Column stills are a differnt animal. You could probably rig some
                              type
                              > of convection cooling for them, but they take any where from 4 to
                              20X
                              > as much cooling as a pot still of the same capacity.
                              >
                              > I grew up in Lexington county, outside Cayce.
                              >
                              > Sven
                              > Howdy Sven,
                              > I Don't know much at all about fractional distillation or column
                              stills, but it would seem to me that you would require only enough
                              heat to get just past the point of total reflux in the column. At
                              that point I would think the cooling requirements for the worm or
                              condenser should be about the same for either type of still.
                              (Maybe I'm wrong on this point, I'm just theorizing here.)
                              You would still need water for the reflux condenser in the column
                              still (or a very tall column could possibly work on air cooling)
                              I am thinking that the cooling needed is directly proportional
                              to the heat being applied to the system, therefore using the minimum
                              heating possible would minimize the cooling required. The 4 to 20X
                              cooling you stated must be what is being used for reflux?
                              Ever catch any Pine Barrens Treefrogs while in Lexington County?
                              Have a good one, Charlie
                            • gilamander7734
                              ... type ... 20X ... stills, but it would seem to me that you would require only enough heat to get just past the point of total reflux in the column. At that
                              Message 14 of 15 , Apr 6, 2004
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                                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Sven Pfitt" <the_gimp98@h...>
                                wrote:
                                > With lots of air circulation, it will work well for a pot still.
                                >
                                > Column stills are a differnt animal. You could probably rig some
                                type
                                > of convection cooling for them, but they take any where from 4 to
                                20X
                                > as much cooling as a pot still of the same capacity.
                                >
                                > I grew up in Lexington county, outside Cayce.
                                >
                                > Sven
                                > Howdy Sven,
                                > I Don't know much at all about fractional distillation or column
                                stills, but it would seem to me that you would require only enough
                                heat to get just past the point of total reflux in the column. At
                                that point I would think the cooling requirements for the worm or
                                condenser should be about the same for either type of still.
                                (Maybe I'm wrong on this point, I'm just theorizing here.)
                                You would still need water for the reflux condenser in the column
                                still (or a very tall column could possibly work on air cooling)
                                I am thinking that the cooling needed is directly proportional
                                to the heat being applied to the system, therefore using the minimum
                                heating possible would minimize the cooling required. The 4 to 20X
                                cooling you stated must be what is being used for reflux?
                                Ever catch any Pine Barrens Treefrogs while in Lexington County?
                                Have a good one, Charlie
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