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Re: Selling Stills in Oz (part 2)

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  • Ackland, Tony (CALNZAS)
    The follow-up in the Craftbrewing newsgroup .... ************************** Message: 5 Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:30:21 +1000 From: Graham L Sanders
    Message 1 of 1 , Mar 2, 2004
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      The follow-up in the Craftbrewing newsgroup ....

      **************************
      Message: 5
      Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:30:21 +1000
      From: "Graham L Sanders" <craftbrewer@...>
      Subject: [Oz Craftbrewing] Selling stills
      To: "Australian CraftBrewing Digest"
      <craftbrewing-craftbrewer.org@...>

      G'Day all

      Shawn asks
      >>>>>>> Where in the first or second quote did you say "promote the use" of
      a still?....So your original statements were incorrect ... or you need to
      practice getting your point across more clearly.<<<<<<<

      Well one puts his hands up and says - guilty, I didn't actually say
      promote. It was implied and I didn't think it would blow up to such an
      extent as needing an expansion. But in the wonders of hindsight, so yep, I
      guess I will continue to practice getting my point accross more clearly.


      >>>>>>>>> So, that being the case, Does this mean I can promote the sale of
      one instead as long as I don't refer to what is used for?<<<<<<<

      Now this gets right into the heart of Governemnt and a host of legal issues.
      And I aint no lawyer. My advise is simple, talk to your local powers to be
      (ATO) as they enforce the law. I have only quoted what our local enforcers
      have told our Homebrew Shops. To further the extent they have come down on
      supply of distilling equipment up here (distilling is very very big up
      here - we lead the country), the local shops all have their own "rum kits"
      made specially for stills. Basically all of them have molases of some sort
      in them. The ATO has banned outright their advertisement, and have advised
      the shops they will take them to court if they do. But they can still sell
      them.


      >>>>>>> If the tax office informed the stores up there about the advertising
      restrictions, and "decreed" that you can't advertise stills, did they
      provide a reference to legislation or some official ruling that backs that
      up? Can you post that reference?<<<<<<

      I check for you mate. All I know is they visited all the shops in the region
      and "laid down the law". As to whether its bluff and tuff, or bedded in
      legislation, regulation or internal policy I dont know. But as a business
      man you should know, if the Tax office says "do this or your in for regular
      audits", what would you do. I used to work in the Taxation Office, and its a
      very effective tool to get your way - even if you are in the wrong. Never
      cross the Tax Office, or drawn attention.


      >>>>>>>> Considering that distilling is regulated by Commonwealth
      legislation, how are they able to enforce restrictions outside that
      legislation?<<<<<<

      Again I'm no lawyer, but its so easy its frightening. Legislation is only
      the framework for Departments to work with. You have underlying regulations
      which expand greatly on this, then Departmental guidelines and policy
      expanding on that, not to mention ministerial directions that dictates how
      you apply all this. Overly this with other legislation that could be used,
      and then fold common law over this, and its very easy to enforce a certain
      viewpoint in the legislation. And even easier to justify it.

      Now again I aint no lawyer (this repeating is boring, but I dont want to be
      sued for legal advice), but isn't it written into common law, that you
      cannot promote any illegial activity. Its the same as these guys selling
      bongs for dope. OK to sell it, but dont use it for the stuff, and you cant
      advertise you are selling them as you are encouraging an illegial activity.
      Same with books on growing dope.


      >>>>>>>>>>> Your story starts in 1915 ... but the Distillery Act is 1901.
      Are you talking about amendment to this act when they banned Irishmen's
      stills? When were those amendments made?<<<<<<<

      This is a common mistake people make when reading legislation. Mainly from
      those who dont understand how govt works. And again I'm no expert, but all
      legislation will refer back to its original legislation that was passed thru
      parliment. There will be amendment passed thru parliment that will change
      sections of the original act (and regulations) as times, situations and
      different parties get into govt., but the Act will always refer to the
      original act passed in Parliment, unless that act is repealed. So yes there
      is still legislation floating arround that refers to legislation at
      Federation, ie 1901. One of my jobs in the old Public Service Board was to
      constantly update legislation as it was ammended. You can be amazed how much
      the original act can be changed with amendments. So much so that the
      original act is all but gone with the amendments.

      I get asked this question every time I raise this story. And every time I
      have to dig it up. I should keep it handy to save this trouble. I recall it
      was still arround the great war, as it was pushed thru as part of the war
      effort, the excuss I think was a two prong attack, 1, that the govt needed
      every cent for the war effort, and home stills was a source not tapped, and
      2. the temperance lobby was a very strong force back then, both in numbers
      and politicially, and argued that home distilled alcohol was distroying
      society, and lowering the productivity of the nation that affected the war
      effort. Both together got the changes thru. I'll go and dig it up for you
      after I get thru the Radio program. That takes a bit of time.

      Shout
      Graham Sanders
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