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Re: [Distillers] yeast propagation

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  • Brad McMahon
    ... From: Jack Ricks To: Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 11:43 AM Subject: [Distillers] yeast
    Message 1 of 10 , Mar 5 1:50 AM
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      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Jack Ricks" <secondhandjack@...>
      To: <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 11:43 AM
      Subject: [Distillers] yeast propagation


      > G'day there
      > It appears to me that spending about$10 for yeast for
      > every 25litre batch of wash seems to be a waste of money.

      That's coz it is!

      > I'm using turbo yeast(with the nutrient included in it).
      > Why is it not possible to use only a small portion of this packet of
      > yeast,say20%for every 25l wash.Is it not possible to grow that 20% in
      > a container until its at the same volumn(parts per million of yeast)
      > as you would get from using the whole packet of turbo yeast in the
      > first place?
      > Surely this is possible to do?
      > Has anyone tried to do this with turbo yeast,or any type of yeast for
      > home brewing?

      Absolutely! Brewers do this all the time. When brewing beer it is critical
      to pitch the right volume of yeast to ensure a good fast healthy
      fermentation. This is not so critical when brewing a wash but you are right
      on the money about re-using the yeast.
      Save a small amount, say, 500mL of yeasty wash from your batch in a Coke
      bottle that you have sanitised with bleach, then store in your fridge. Just
      remember not to mistake it for lemon squash when you come home from a night
      out :-) It will keep for a couple of months like this.
      A few days before preparing your next wash, boil up some malt extract or
      sugar and nutrient in a litre of water.
      Wait for it to cool and add this to a sanitised 2 litre PET bottle along
      with your yeast culture. Put a stopper with an airlock - or
      failing that, cling wrap with a rubber band over the bottle mouth (punch a
      small hole with a pin to let the carbon dioxide out.).
      Let this mini-wash ferment away, you can swish and shake the bottle as many
      times as you like - it will increase the cell count.
      When it is fermenting away nicely for a couple of days then add the whole
      bottle or healthy yeast into your freshly made 20 or 25L of wash!

      > I know you would have to add more nutrient to the mix when you put
      > the yeast in the wash.

      Yep - same amount as usual. You can just buy nutrient from now on.
      Eventually the yeast will get infected - there are always contaminants
      getting in somewhere along the way, we are not in a airtight lab! You will
      notice unusual smells in the ferment after reusing the yeast quite a few
      times. In brewing it is very noticable but distillers can get away with a
      lot more infection without noticing off flavours in your output.
      You will get away with buying a new pack every year or longer depending on
      how miserly you are!

      Cheers,

      Brad


      >
    • Ted Palmer
      As far as using less than the whole package. I don t see why not as long as you use a nutrient supplement. How many times must I say this!!! you need 10 x
      Message 2 of 10 , Mar 5 8:35 AM
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        "As far as using less than the whole package.  I don't see why not as long as you use a nutrient supplement."
         
        How many times must I say this!!! you need 10 x 10^6 cells per ml of wash as a minimum!!!!! you need even more for higher gravities!!!! For you non science types that means about a cup of yeast slurry for a 25 liter batch at 1.050 and 2 cups for 1.080 3 cups for 1.100 .
         
        [Getting on the soapbox]
        I see the same questions pop up all the time, over and over. I get the feeling that no one is reading the posts from the begining and just ask questions due to laziness. This hobby will hurt those that are lazy and those that take short cuts or just jump in without learning the steps needed to make safe drink. If your trying to make cheap booze, you can't. You get what you pay for. 
        Also there is a new distillers group that helps the newbies but I don't see many people start there. Why is that?
        [Getting off the soapbox]
         
        _____________
        Ted Palmer
        tpalmer@...
         
         
         
         
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 9:52 PM
        Subject: Re: [Distillers] yeast propagation

        Hello,

        I reused bakers yeast when I made small batches of mead-like-wine-stuff in 3 liter soda pop bottles in College.

        It only took a teaspoon of the sediment at the bottom to start the next batch.  I kept many batches going for over a year using the same yeast.

        I've heard however that sometimes yeast can mutate to such a high degree that reusing it is dangerous.  The consequence being an unwanted byproduct.  I don't know if any of these byproducts would be near the boiling point of ethanol though.

        As far as using less than the whole package.  I don't see why not as long as you use a nutrient supplement.  The main concern is making sure that the desired yeast becomes prevelent.  The key to this is using sterile technique, but that is very hard with such large batches as yeast and bacteria are in the air.  From microbiology class I've learned a few tips and trick to remain sterile.  Soak everything in bleach first. Boil water used for fro wash to 20 minutes and cover to let cool. Leave the lid on as much as possible while filling and stirring to avoid bacteria falling-out from the air and cieling into the wash.  Don't forget to sterilize your stirring stick.  That may help some.  Bottom line (excluding mutations which I don't know much about) is that you could theoretically use a teaspoon of yeast to get the batch going as long as you use sterile technique, nutrients, and great care.

        I am looking forward to seeing some insight on this subject also.  I use turbo yeast and can only get it through mail order.


        Thank,

        Tim


        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
      • Dick
        Hi all, Doesn t the same argument apply here as I ve heard against home- brewers propagating yeast - if we don t buy yeast from the people who are prepared to
        Message 3 of 10 , Mar 5 3:32 PM
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          Hi all,
          Doesn't the same argument apply here as I've heard against home-
          brewers propagating yeast - if we don't buy yeast from the people who are
          prepared to sell us good yeasts then they'll stop supplying & then we'll have
          no decent yeasts available. Just a thought !!

          From a brewing/wort preparation point of view I'm a firm believer in
          having a decent starter - for a 25l wash pitch with at least 4l of an ACTIVE
          yeast solution, make sure the yeast you want gets a good start and
          eliminates any wild yeast that is trying to get started. Mind you, I've never
          had any problem with turbo yeast - other than when I added it to an already
          fermenting wort - it foamed up all over the place within 2/3 minutes.

          Searching another aspect of micro spore propagation on the Net
          (magic mushrooms I think !!) I understand spore/yeast propagation beyond a
          3rd generation runs the risk of noticeable mutation, from our point of view the
          consequences could be increased production of higher alcohols/fusel oils.
          Anyone any further comments ??
          --
          Dick
        • physkid@raidersfan.net
          Ted- I know you have described this in detail before, but perhaps you could indulge me one last time. I do attempt to follow your s and other s advice, but
          Message 4 of 10 , Mar 5 4:55 PM
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            Ted-

            I know you have described this in detail before, but perhaps you
            could indulge me one last time. I do attempt to follow your's and
            other's advice, but alas my memory is not so hot sometimes. If I
            start with a dry packet of, say, champagne yeast, and I wish to
            eventually pitch into an aproximately 20L wash of say 1.080 S.G., I
            gather that I should first start with maybe a cup of wash (or other
            sugary starter) then move to perhaps a liter container, and then
            pitch my 20L batch. My question: how long do the yeast take to
            multiply in the small starter containers? I want them aerobic, yes?,
            so I aerate the container generously. Do I need to wait minutes,
            hours, or days, from the one packet in a cup of wash stage to the
            liter starter, to the final pitch? I am concerned that I go to fast
            normally and don't boost my cell count as much as I am hoping to. I
            generally have been moving to the next size up container after I get
            a nice generous amount of activity evident by a large amount of foam;
            this happens in the hour or so that I am waiting for my wash to cool
            down enough to pitch (I haven't advanced to a real wort chiller yet).

            Thanks in advance,
            and happy hooching,
            Andrew


            --- In Distillers@y..., "Ted Palmer" <tpalmer@o...> wrote:
            > "As far as using less than the whole package. I don't see why not
            as long as you use a nutrient supplement."
            >
            > How many times must I say this!!! you need 10 x 10^6 cells per ml
            of wash as a minimum!!!!! you need even more for higher gravities!!!!
            For you non science types that means about a cup of yeast slurry for
            a 25 liter batch at 1.050 and 2 cups for 1.080 3 cups for 1.100 .
            >
            > [Getting on the soapbox]
            > I see the same questions pop up all the time, over and over. I get
            the feeling that no one is reading the posts from the begining and
            just ask questions due to laziness. This hobby will hurt those that
            are lazy and those that take short cuts or just jump in without
            learning the steps needed to make safe drink. If your trying to make
            cheap booze, you can't. You get what you pay for.
            > Also there is a new distillers group that helps the newbies but I
            don't see many people start there. Why is that?
            > [Getting off the soapbox]
            >
            > _____________
            > Ted Palmer
            > tpalmer@o...
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: MtrcyclMon@a...
            > To: Distillers@y...
            > Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 9:52 PM
            > Subject: Re: [Distillers] yeast propagation
            >
            >
            > Hello,
            >
            > I reused bakers yeast when I made small batches of mead-like-wine-
            stuff in 3 liter soda pop bottles in College.
            >
            > It only took a teaspoon of the sediment at the bottom to start
            the next batch. I kept many batches going for over a year using the
            same yeast.
            >
            > I've heard however that sometimes yeast can mutate to such a high
            degree that reusing it is dangerous. The consequence being an
            unwanted byproduct. I don't know if any of these byproducts would be
            near the boiling point of ethanol though.
            >
            > As far as using less than the whole package. I don't see why not
            as long as you use a nutrient supplement. The main concern is making
            sure that the desired yeast becomes prevelent. The key to this is
            using sterile technique, but that is very hard with such large
            batches as yeast and bacteria are in the air. From microbiology
            class I've learned a few tips and trick to remain sterile. Soak
            everything in bleach first. Boil water used for fro wash to 20
            minutes and cover to let cool. Leave the lid on as much as possible
            while filling and stirring to avoid bacteria falling-out from the air
            and cieling into the wash. Don't forget to sterilize your stirring
            stick. That may help some. Bottom line (excluding mutations which I
            don't know much about) is that you could theoretically use a teaspoon
            of yeast to get the batch going as long as you use sterile technique,
            nutrients, and great care.
            >
            > I am looking forward to seeing some insight on this subject
            also. I use turbo yeast and can only get it through mail order.
            >
            >
            > Thank,
            >
            > Tim
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
            >
            > Click for Details
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
            Service.
          • Ted Palmer
            My question: how long do the yeast take to multiply in the small starter containers? 8 to 12 hours is typical. I want them aerobic, yes? Yes. A 25L wash at
            Message 5 of 10 , Mar 5 5:17 PM
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              My question: how long do the yeast take to
              multiply in the small starter containers?
               
              8 to 12 hours is typical.
               
              I want them aerobic, yes?
               
              Yes.
               
              A 25L wash at 1.080 needs about 3 cups of slurry. Think about that for a second.... slurry is the consistency of thin yogurt... are you beginning to understand just how much yeast that is?? A shitty little packet of dry yeast ain't gonna do it. you would have to start with 10 or more of those packs to get to those kind of numbers of cells.
              Reuse the yeast from the last batch that you have done and there should be enough yeast to make the ferment finish in 5 or less days. BTW, if it takes longer than a week to ferment all of the way out, you didn't pitch enough yeast.
               
              Here is a good analogy, would you plant your lawn with just a handful of seed and hope that it will fill in quickly or should you lay down sod and be done with it?????
               
              Remember, yeast is THE MOST IMPORTANT ingredient in any fermentation.
              THE MOST IMPORTANT!!
              _____________
              Ted Palmer
              tpalmer@...
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 4:55 PM
              Subject: [Distillers] Re: yeast propagation

              Ted-

              I know you have described this in detail before, but perhaps you
              could indulge me one last time. I do attempt to follow your's and
              other's advice, but alas my memory is not so hot sometimes. If I
              start with a dry packet of, say, champagne yeast, and I wish to
              eventually pitch into an aproximately 20L wash of say 1.080 S.G., I
              gather that I should first start with maybe a cup of wash (or other
              sugary starter) then move to perhaps a liter container, and then
              pitch my 20L batch. My question: how long do the yeast take to
              multiply in the small starter containers? I want them aerobic, yes?,
              so I aerate the container generously. Do I need to wait minutes,
              hours, or days, from the one packet in a cup of wash stage to the
              liter starter, to the final pitch?  I am concerned that I go to fast
              normally and don't boost my cell count as much as I am hoping to. I
              generally have been moving to the next size up container after I get
              a nice generous amount of activity evident by a large amount of foam;
              this happens in the hour or so that I am waiting for my wash to cool
              down enough to pitch (I haven't advanced to a real wort chiller yet).

              Thanks in advance,
              and happy hooching,
              Andrew


              --- In Distillers@y..., "Ted Palmer" <tpalmer@o...> wrote:
              > "As far as using less than the whole package.  I don't see why not
              as long as you use a nutrient supplement."
              >
              > How many times must I say this!!! you need 10 x 10^6 cells per ml
              of wash as a minimum!!!!! you need even more for higher gravities!!!!
              For you non science types that means about a cup of yeast slurry for
              a 25 liter batch at 1.050 and 2 cups for 1.080 3 cups for 1.100 .
              >
              > [Getting on the soapbox]
              > I see the same questions pop up all the time, over and over. I get
              the feeling that no one is reading the posts from the begining and
              just ask questions due to laziness. This hobby will hurt those that
              are lazy and those that take short cuts or just jump in without
              learning the steps needed to make safe drink. If your trying to make
              cheap booze, you can't. You get what you pay for.
              > Also there is a new distillers group that helps the newbies but I
              don't see many people start there. Why is that?
              > [Getting off the soapbox]
              >
              > _____________
              > Ted Palmer
              > tpalmer@o...
              >
              >  
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >   ----- Original Message -----
              >   From: MtrcyclMon@a...
              >   To: Distillers@y...
              >   Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 9:52 PM
              >   Subject: Re: [Distillers] yeast propagation
              >
              >
              >   Hello,
              >
              >   I reused bakers yeast when I made small batches of mead-like-wine-
              stuff in 3 liter soda pop bottles in College.
              >
              >   It only took a teaspoon of the sediment at the bottom to start
              the next batch.  I kept many batches going for over a year using the
              same yeast.
              >
              >   I've heard however that sometimes yeast can mutate to such a high
              degree that reusing it is dangerous.  The consequence being an
              unwanted byproduct.  I don't know if any of these byproducts would be
              near the boiling point of ethanol though.
              >
              >   As far as using less than the whole package.  I don't see why not
              as long as you use a nutrient supplement.  The main concern is making
              sure that the desired yeast becomes prevelent.  The key to this is
              using sterile technique, but that is very hard with such large
              batches as yeast and bacteria are in the air.  From microbiology
              class I've learned a few tips and trick to remain sterile.  Soak
              everything in bleach first. Boil water used for fro wash to 20
              minutes and cover to let cool. Leave the lid on as much as possible
              while filling and stirring to avoid bacteria falling-out from the air
              and cieling into the wash.  Don't forget to sterilize your stirring
              stick.  That may help some.  Bottom line (excluding mutations which I
              don't know much about) is that you could theoretically use a teaspoon
              of yeast to get the batch going as long as you use sterile technique,
              nutrients, and great care.
              >
              >   I am looking forward to seeing some insight on this subject
              also.  I use turbo yeast and can only get it through mail order.
              >
              >
              >   Thank,
              >
              >   Tim
              >
              >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
              >
              >         Click for Details
              >       
              >
              >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
              Service.



              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
            • Ted Palmer
              make sure the yeast you want gets a good start and eliminates any wild yeast that is trying to get started. Wild yeasts are not reduced or even slowed down by
              Message 6 of 10 , Mar 6 9:02 AM
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                make sure the yeast you want gets a good start and
                eliminates any wild yeast that is trying to get started.
                Wild yeasts are not reduced or even slowed down by a strong ferment, in fact some wild yeasts can even kill the brewing yeasts to become the major component of the cell count. You are referring to non acid loving bacteria and aerobic bacteria. The yeast as they ferment lower the pH and remove all the oxygen from the wash making life difficult for many bacteria and some types of molds.
                 
                I understand spore/yeast propagation beyond a
                3rd generation runs the risk of noticeable mutation, from our point of view the
                consequences could be increased production of higher alcohols/fusel oils.
                This is true to an extent. It really depends on the genetics of the cell and the stability of the environment that it exists in. brewing yeast is fairly stable and can give you 10 to 50 generations if the wash is the same every time, temperature doesn't vary and it is not allowed to go into hibernation too often.
                 
                _____________
                Ted Palmer
                tpalmer@...
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Dick
                Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 3:32 PM
                Subject: Re: [Distillers] yeast propagation

                Hi all,
                        Doesn't the same argument apply here as I've heard against home-
                brewers propagating yeast - if we don't buy yeast from the people who are
                prepared to sell us good yeasts then they'll stop supplying & then we'll have
                no decent yeasts available. Just a thought !!

                        From a brewing/wort preparation point of view I'm a firm believer in
                having a decent starter - for a 25l wash pitch with at least 4l of an ACTIVE
                yeast solution, make sure the yeast you want gets a good start and
                eliminates any wild yeast that is trying to get started. Mind you, I've never
                had any problem with turbo yeast - other than when I added it to an already
                fermenting wort - it foamed up all over the place within 2/3 minutes.

                        Searching another aspect of micro spore propagation on the Net
                (magic mushrooms I think !!) I understand spore/yeast propagation beyond a
                3rd generation runs the risk of noticeable mutation, from our point of view the
                consequences could be increased production of higher alcohols/fusel oils.
                Anyone any further comments ??
                --
                Dick


                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
              • Pete Sayers
                Hey Dick, thanks for the support, I agree, as a Homebrew Retailer, if everybody was trying to do their washes as CHEAPLY AS THEIR CHEAP POCKETS will allow,
                Message 7 of 10 , Mar 6 2:04 PM
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                  Hey Dick, thanks for the support, I agree, as a Homebrew Retailer, if
                  everybody was trying to do their washes as CHEAPLY AS THEIR CHEAP POCKETS
                  will allow, then what the hell am i doing here. The cost of using the
                  materials from my shop will produce an excellent quality spirit, at 1/4 to
                  1/3 of normal retail for any given commercially brewed item, and as we all
                  are aware, a bloody site CLEANER than the commercial crap.
                  SO SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL RETAILER OR HE MAY NOT BE THERE TO ASSIST WITH ADVICE
                  (which incidentally, is free)AND AN EVER INCREASING RANGE OF NEW PRODUCTS.
                  Pete Sayers Brewers Barn

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Dick [mailto:dick@...]
                  Sent: Tuesday, 6 March 2001 12:32
                  To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [Distillers] yeast propagation


                  Hi all,
                  Doesn't the same argument apply here as I've heard against home-
                  brewers propagating yeast - if we don't buy yeast from the people who are
                  prepared to sell us good yeasts then they'll stop supplying & then we'll
                  have
                  no decent yeasts available. Just a thought !!

                  From a brewing/wort preparation point of view I'm a firm believer in
                  having a decent starter - for a 25l wash pitch with at least 4l of an ACTIVE
                  yeast solution, make sure the yeast you want gets a good start and
                  eliminates any wild yeast that is trying to get started. Mind you, I've
                  never
                  had any problem with turbo yeast - other than when I added it to an already
                  fermenting wort - it foamed up all over the place within 2/3 minutes.

                  Searching another aspect of micro spore propagation on the Net
                  (magic mushrooms I think !!) I understand spore/yeast propagation beyond a
                  3rd generation runs the risk of noticeable mutation, from our point of view
                  the
                  consequences could be increased production of higher alcohols/fusel oils.
                  Anyone any further comments ??
                  --
                  Dick



                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                • Matt
                  ... heh... get us a local retailer of those sorts of products in the US and I ll support the hell out of him! ;-) -- ... Matthew @ psibercom psibercom.org:
                  Message 8 of 10 , Mar 6 3:25 PM
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                    On Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 11:04:23AM +1300, Pete Sayers wrote:
                    > SO SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL RETAILER OR HE MAY NOT BE THERE TO ASSIST WITH ADVICE
                    > (which incidentally, is free)AND AN EVER INCREASING RANGE OF NEW PRODUCTS.
                    > Pete Sayers Brewers Barn
                    >

                    heh... get us a local retailer of those sorts of products in the US and
                    I'll support the hell out of him! ;-)

                    --
                    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    Matthew @ psibercom
                    psibercom.org: doing pretty much nothing for the net since 1994!
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