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Re: [Distillers] Re: Agave Nectar or syrup Pulque-Mezcal-Tequila pruduction experiments

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  • Matt SF
    ... great report Tar, thanks for the info. Also let us know how the flavor profile comes out with the turbo yeasts; i m worried they would sacrifice desirable
    Message 1 of 12 , Feb 2, 2004
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      On Sun, Feb 01, 2004 at 02:54:14PM -0000, Tarvus wrote:
      > ($100 US for 6 quarts) I decided to play it safe and use the turbo
      > yeast in both batches knowing it had nutrients included.
      >
      > My hydrometer reading showed the starting gravity at just under 6%
      > potential (1.044), but that was not corrected for the still warm
      > temperature of the wash. I estimate the corrected gravity would have
      > been roughly 1.050 giving about 6 1/2% potential alcohol.

      great report Tar, thanks for the info. Also let us know how the flavor
      profile comes out with the turbo yeasts; i'm worried they would sacrifice
      desirable organoleptics for higher alcohol. So for my next batch I'm
      going to try a wine yeast (probably Lalvin K1V-1116) and a proper
      nutrient balance.

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    • Paul William
      Where did you get the agave nectar from? - Paul
      Message 2 of 12 , Feb 2, 2004
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        Where did you get the agave nectar from? - Paul
      • Tarvus
        ... Sweet Cactus Farms. Here s a link... http://www.sweetcactusfarms.com/orders.htm Tar
        Message 3 of 12 , Feb 3, 2004
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          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Paul William" <stihl056paul@y...>
          wrote:
          > Where did you get the agave nectar from? - Paul

          Sweet Cactus Farms. Here's a link...
          http://www.sweetcactusfarms.com/orders.htm

          Tar
        • Tarvus
          ... flavor ... sacrifice ... I m ... Hello everybody, Here s the agave nectar update: The agave fermentation finished out at .995 I ran the batch this
          Message 4 of 12 , Feb 3, 2004
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            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Matt SF <spore@p...> wrote:

            > great report Tar, thanks for the info. Also let us know how the
            flavor
            > profile comes out with the turbo yeasts; i'm worried they would
            sacrifice
            > desirable organoleptics for higher alcohol. So for my next batch
            I'm
            > going to try a wine yeast (probably Lalvin K1V-1116) and a proper
            > nutrient balance.

            Hello everybody,
            Here's the agave nectar update:

            The agave fermentation finished out at .995

            I ran the batch this afternoon. I discarded about an ounce and a
            half of foreshots then started collecting. I kept the first pint
            separate, collected 3 quarts, then kept the last 3 pints separate in
            pint jars. I chilled everything down to 60F in my freezer to be able
            to get an accurate alcohol reading.

            The first pint and the 3 quart jars were crystal clear when chilled,
            but the last 3 pint jars were clouding. I opted to use one pint (the
            least cloudy) from the last three and all the earlier clear stuff in
            my batch. So I wound up with exactly one gallon which measured out
            at 92% abv. I cut it back to 80 proof and as soon as I added the
            water, I realized it was a mistake to include that last pint. The
            whole batch clouded slightly - not bad, but not what I wanted
            cosmetically. Obviously I let a bit too much of the tails come thru
            and the fusils in that last pint are clouding. I deliberately made
            the cut later than usual because I wanted to capture as much flavor
            as possible. I must admit, the tequila tastes very good - very
            smooth and sweet with that gentle bite good pure agave tequilas
            have. I am dissapointed though that it is slightly cloudy. I will
            probably re-distill it tomorrow and narrow the cut just a bit to
            remove the cloudyness.

            All in all, I am quite pleased with the results. The turbo yeast
            allowed plenty of flavor to come through. I may experiment with
            different yeasts in future batches though - just to see what impact
            yeast selection has on flavor.

            I was a bit dissapointed in yield. There must be some unfermentable
            dextrines in the agave nectar since it finished fermenting at .995
            whereas I usually finish at about .98 with a sugar wash and turbo
            yeast.

            Recommendations and lessons learned:
            #1. The 5 gallon bucket is a better deal than ordering 6 quarts of
            agave nectar. $200 per 20 quarts versus $100 for 6 quarts when
            ordering jugs. Next time, I will go with a full bucket.

            #2. Much of the flavor of tequila is in the heads. Be stingy with
            how much of the heads you throw away.

            #3. Don't try to stretch the run on the back side. Better to cut
            tails too early than too late.

            #4. 8 kg of agave nectar won't give you the same yield as 8 kg of
            sugar.

            #5. If you try the agave nectar route, it WILL make good tequila! :)

            best regards,
            Tar
            sipping on a shot glass full of "El Mulo Blanco Mojo Tarquila" as he
            types this message :-)
          • theholymackerel
            Thankyou, God bless you, and thankyou again. Yer the first person I ve ever seen post about makin their own tequilla. Thanks for postin all the way through
            Message 5 of 12 , Feb 3, 2004
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              Thankyou, God bless you, and thankyou again.

              Yer the first person I've ever seen post about makin' their own
              tequilla.

              Thanks for postin' all the way through yer project. Ya got me
              thinkin' now.

              Are ya gonna drink it white and young, or aged and on oak? Please
              let us all know what ya do, and how it comes out.

              Best of luck, THM
            • Tarvus
              ... Glad you found the postings of value, THM! :) This batch I will drink as a silver. I may experiment in future batches with oak aging a reposado and anejo.
              Message 6 of 12 , Feb 3, 2004
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                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "theholymackerel"
                <theholymackerel13@y...> wrote:
                > Thankyou, God bless you, and thankyou again.
                >
                > Yer the first person I've ever seen post about makin' their own
                > tequilla.
                >
                > Thanks for postin' all the way through yer project. Ya got me
                > thinkin' now.
                >
                > Are ya gonna drink it white and young, or aged and on oak? Please
                > let us all know what ya do, and how it comes out.
                >

                Glad you found the postings of value, THM! :)

                This batch I will drink as a silver. I may experiment in future
                batches with oak aging a reposado and anejo. I want to perfect the
                tequila making basics first before worrying about oaking and aging,
                though my personal preference in tequilas is for the reposados.

                best regards,
                Tar
              • Matt SF
                ... True, as Srs. Cruz and Alvarez-Jacobs detail, the main esters found in silver tequila were Ethyl Acetate (17.77%), Ethyl decanoate (2.78%), Ethyl lactate
                Message 7 of 12 , Feb 3, 2004
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                  On Wed, Feb 04, 2004 at 01:17:01AM -0000, Tarvus wrote:
                  > #2. Much of the flavor of tequila is in the heads. Be stingy with
                  > how much of the heads you throw away.

                  True, as Srs. Cruz and Alvarez-Jacobs detail, the main esters found in
                  silver tequila were Ethyl Acetate (17.77%), Ethyl decanoate (2.78%), Ethyl
                  lactate (2.74%), Ethyl octanoate (1.92%), and Ethyl dodecanoate (.95%).

                  What's weird is that when talking about the esters they also say:
                  "Ethyl acetate has been reported to be the second most abundant compound
                  in tequila after isoamyl alcohol." Now the main isomer of isoamyl alcohol
                  (aka isobutyl carbinol aka fermentation amyl alcohol) is listed as having
                  a boiling point of 130.5 C ... are the pot stillers south of the border
                  really running their stills that hot and heavy to drive that compound
                  over in great abundance? But since I see references to it being a major
                  component of the group known as fusels, then I guess it does make sense.
                  Heck even Ethyl Decanoate has a bp of 117 C.

                  Congrats on your success! If I can get this whiskey mash to finish
                  fermenting and free up the bucket I'll try to play catch-up :)

                  -Matt sf


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                • Andrew Forsberg
                  ... Hi Matt, Are those meant to be percentages, or parts per million? 17.77% ethyl acetate sounds incredibly high. Don t you think? After all those esters it
                  Message 8 of 12 , Feb 3, 2004
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                    On Wed, 2004-02-04 at 15:10, Matt SF wrote:
                    > On Wed, Feb 04, 2004 at 01:17:01AM -0000, Tarvus wrote:
                    > > #2. Much of the flavor of tequila is in the heads. Be stingy with
                    > > how much of the heads you throw away.
                    >
                    > True, as Srs. Cruz and Alvarez-Jacobs detail, the main esters found in
                    > silver tequila were Ethyl Acetate (17.77%), Ethyl decanoate (2.78%), Ethyl
                    > lactate (2.74%), Ethyl octanoate (1.92%), and Ethyl dodecanoate (.95%).

                    Hi Matt,

                    Are those meant to be percentages, or parts per million? 17.77% ethyl
                    acetate sounds incredibly high. Don't you think? After all those esters
                    it sounds like there would be bugger all room left for ethanol and
                    water...

                    Not that I'm pretending to know much about tequila makeup or anything.
                    The figures just sounded odd. A ppm / percent confusion may explain why
                    those 130+ deg C BP compounds getting such high figures too.

                    Cheers
                    Andrew
                  • Matt SF
                    ... Hi Andrew-- yes the authors aren t entirely clear but it appears they are saying that those are the percentages found when you sample the family of esters
                    Message 9 of 12 , Feb 3, 2004
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                      On Wed, Feb 04, 2004 at 03:22:44PM +1300, Andrew Forsberg wrote:
                      > On Wed, 2004-02-04 at 15:10, Matt SF wrote:
                      > > True, as Srs. Cruz and Alvarez-Jacobs detail, the main esters found in
                      > > silver tequila were Ethyl Acetate (17.77%), Ethyl decanoate (2.78%), Ethyl
                      > > lactate (2.74%), Ethyl octanoate (1.92%), and Ethyl dodecanoate (.95%).
                      >
                      > Hi Matt,
                      >
                      > Are those meant to be percentages, or parts per million? 17.77% ethyl
                      > acetate sounds incredibly high. Don't you think? After all those esters
                      > it sounds like there would be bugger all room left for ethanol and
                      > water...

                      Hi Andrew--

                      yes the authors aren't entirely clear but it appears they are saying that
                      those are the percentages found when you sample the family of esters
                      alone. I'm assuming it's percentage by weight.

                      They are quoting this source, according to the bibliography:

                      Estarrón, M., T. Martín del Campo and R. Cosío.
                      1999. Identificación de los componentes volátiles que caracterizan la
                      huella cromatográfica distintiva de tequilas. Technical Report for Tequila
                      Herradura S.A.

                      I don't suppose anyone here has a copy of that on the shelf, eh? :)

                      Hmm interesting, I just found that if you search via Google using the
                      authors above, you can find a link with the pdf Tarvus and I have been
                      discussing. Funny how that works! ;)

                      -matt
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