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"Potteen Whisky"

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  • waljaco
    An accessible 1860 manuscript describing the making of poitin using a 180 litre still is Muspratt s Chemistry:
    Message 1 of 17 , Jan 2, 2004
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      An accessible 1860 manuscript describing the making of poitin using a
      180 litre still is Muspratt's Chemistry:
      http://bcis.pacificu.edu/~polverone/muspratt1/c-094.png
      /c-095.png, /c-096png, /c-097.png

      The recipe given earlier for Bushmills whisky is 1.25 kg of malted
      barley to 4 litres of water. No quantities are given for the poitin,
      but one might expect it to be similar. It mentions that originally
      poitin was distilled entirely from malt but that now about 1/4 of raw
      corn (grain) is added. The yield is 1 gallon (4.5 l) of proof spirit
      (57%abv)/bushel (approx. 30 kg) of mixed grain.

      To date I have only seen written reference to barley, oats, rye,
      wheat, treacle, brown and white sugar as ingredients and lately sugar
      beet pulp. I suspect that with the population increase in the 19th
      century, and the small land holdings of about 4 acres, potatoes were
      used primarily for food as they required less preparation than grains.

      Wal
    • abbababbaccc
      ... a ... poitin, That s roughly 11% in mash. Can regular ale yeasts reach that high? Greetz, Riku
      Message 2 of 17 , Jan 2, 2004
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        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@h...> wrote:
        > An accessible 1860 manuscript describing the making of poitin using
        a
        > 180 litre still is Muspratt's Chemistry:
        > http://bcis.pacificu.edu/~polverone/muspratt1/c-094.png
        > /c-095.png, /c-096png, /c-097.png
        >
        > The recipe given earlier for Bushmills whisky is 1.25 kg of malted
        > barley to 4 litres of water. No quantities are given for the
        poitin,


        That's roughly 11% in mash. Can regular ale yeasts reach that high?

        Greetz, Riku
      • waljaco
        For easy access try - http://bcis.pacificu.edu/~polverone/muspratt1/ Wal ... a
        Message 3 of 17 , Jan 2, 2004
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          For easy access try -
          http://bcis.pacificu.edu/~polverone/muspratt1/

          Wal
          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@h...> wrote:
          > An accessible 1860 manuscript describing the making of poitin using
          a
          > 180 litre still is Muspratt's Chemistry:
          > http://bcis.pacificu.edu/~polverone/muspratt1/c-094.png
          > /c-095.png, /c-096png, /c-097.png
          >

          > Wal
        • waljaco
          Grains are roughly 50% convertible starch which is equivalent to sugar if we assume a full conversion. 1.25 kg of grain is approx. = to 600 g of sugar/4l water
          Message 4 of 17 , Jan 2, 2004
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            Grains are roughly 50% convertible starch which is equivalent to
            sugar if we assume a full conversion.
            1.25 kg of grain is approx. = to 600 g of sugar/4l water which is
            about 150 g sugar/l which should give 8%abv. The actual conversion is
            much less in practice.
            Wal

            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@y...>
            wrote:
            > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@h...> wrote:
            > > An accessible 1860 manuscript describing the making of poitin
            using
            > a
            > > 180 litre still is Muspratt's Chemistry:
            > > http://bcis.pacificu.edu/~polverone/muspratt1/c-094.png
            > > /c-095.png, /c-096png, /c-097.png
            > >
            > > The recipe given earlier for Bushmills whisky is 1.25 kg of
            malted
            > > barley to 4 litres of water. No quantities are given for the
            > poitin,
            >
            >
            > That's roughly 11% in mash. Can regular ale yeasts reach that high?
            >
            > Greetz, Riku
          • abbababbaccc
            As I understand it 2 row barley malt has a max. yield of 80%. Assuming 80% efficiency (leaving grain in the mash helps) we get 0.8*0.8 = 0.64, rounded down to
            Message 5 of 17 , Jan 2, 2004
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              As I understand it 2 row barley malt has a max. yield of 80%.
              Assuming 80% efficiency (leaving grain in the mash helps) we get
              0.8*0.8 = 0.64, rounded down to 60% sugar from grains. So it should
              make 750g sugar in 4 liters -> 0.45 l ethanol -> 11.25% mash. Did I
              miss something here?

              Greetz, Riku

              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@h...> wrote:
              >
              > Grains are roughly 50% convertible starch which is equivalent to
              > sugar if we assume a full conversion.
              > 1.25 kg of grain is approx. = to 600 g of sugar/4l water which is
              > about 150 g sugar/l which should give 8%abv. The actual conversion
              is
              > much less in practice.
              > Wal
              >
              > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc"
              <abbababbaccc@y...>
              > wrote:
              > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@h...> wrote:
              > > > An accessible 1860 manuscript describing the making of poitin
              > using
              > > a
              > > > 180 litre still is Muspratt's Chemistry:
              > > > http://bcis.pacificu.edu/~polverone/muspratt1/c-094.png
              > > > /c-095.png, /c-096png, /c-097.png
              > > >
              > > > The recipe given earlier for Bushmills whisky is 1.25 kg of
              > malted
              > > > barley to 4 litres of water. No quantities are given for the
              > > poitin,
              > >
              > >
              > > That's roughly 11% in mash. Can regular ale yeasts reach that
              high?
              > >
              > > Greetz, Riku
            • waljaco
              Malt extract syrup is 80% sugars like honey. Bur barley grain is 55% starch which can be converted to sugars by enzymes. If you sparge these sugars you will
              Message 6 of 17 , Jan 3, 2004
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                Malt extract syrup is 80% sugars like honey.
                Bur barley grain is 55% starch which can be converted to sugars by
                enzymes. If you sparge these sugars you will get a malt extract which
                is higher in sugars than in the original grain which also contains
                protein etc..
                Wal
                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@y...>
                wrote:
                > As I understand it 2 row barley malt has a max. yield of 80%.
                > Assuming 80% efficiency (leaving grain in the mash helps) we get
                > 0.8*0.8 = 0.64, rounded down to 60% sugar from grains. So it should
                > make 750g sugar in 4 liters -> 0.45 l ethanol -> 11.25% mash. Did I
                > miss something here?
                >
                > Greetz, Riku
                >
                > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@h...> wrote:
                > >
                > > Grains are roughly 50% convertible starch which is equivalent to
                > > sugar if we assume a full conversion.
                > > 1.25 kg of grain is approx. = to 600 g of sugar/4l water which is
                > > about 150 g sugar/l which should give 8%abv. The actual
                conversion
                > is
                > > much less in practice.
                > > Wal
                > >
                > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc"
                > <abbababbaccc@y...>
                > > wrote:
                > > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@h...>
                wrote:
                > > > > An accessible 1860 manuscript describing the making of poitin
                > > using
                > > > a
                > > > > 180 litre still is Muspratt's Chemistry:
                > > > > http://bcis.pacificu.edu/~polverone/muspratt1/c-094.png
                > > > > /c-095.png, /c-096png, /c-097.png
                > > > >
                > > > > The recipe given earlier for Bushmills whisky is 1.25 kg of
                > > malted
                > > > > barley to 4 litres of water. No quantities are given for the
                > > > poitin,
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > That's roughly 11% in mash. Can regular ale yeasts reach that
                > high?
                > > >
                > > > Greetz, Riku
              • abbababbaccc
                Wal, where do you get that information of only 55% being convertable? I just looked at howtobrew.com and a typical pils recipe has 4kg of 2 row barley malt and
                Message 7 of 17 , Jan 4, 2004
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                  Wal, where do you get that information of only 55% being convertable?
                  I just looked at howtobrew.com and a typical pils recipe has 4kg of 2
                  row barley malt and produces OG of 1047 in 20 liters. OG of 1047
                  corresponds to 2.45 kg of sugar in a 20 liters of mash. Now in that
                  case the conversion factor would be (2.45/4)*100=61% which is indeed
                  higher than the 55% you suggest. That 60% is for a normal homebrewer
                  meaning 1kg of 2 row barley has max yield of 80% (info from Tony's
                  site) and homebrewers usually get about 75% (again from Tony's site)
                  of that max. making 80%*75%=60% fermentable sugar from. That 60% is
                  also in line with my practical experience. Now unless things work
                  differently in your part of the universe I believe you have a slight
                  mistake there. In practise I have exceeded that 60% while leaving
                  grains in the mash during fermentation and distillation.

                  Greetz, Riku

                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@h...> wrote:
                  > Malt extract syrup is 80% sugars like honey.
                  > Bur barley grain is 55% starch which can be converted to sugars by
                  > enzymes. If you sparge these sugars you will get a malt extract
                  which
                  > is higher in sugars than in the original grain which also contains
                  > protein etc..
                  > Wal
                  > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc"
                  <abbababbaccc@y...>
                  > wrote:
                  > > As I understand it 2 row barley malt has a max. yield of 80%.
                  > > Assuming 80% efficiency (leaving grain in the mash helps) we get
                  > > 0.8*0.8 = 0.64, rounded down to 60% sugar from grains. So it
                  should
                  > > make 750g sugar in 4 liters -> 0.45 l ethanol -> 11.25% mash. Did
                  I
                  > > miss something here?
                  > >
                  > > Greetz, Riku
                  > >
                • waljaco
                  When you wet barley, enzymes are activated that convert starch to sugars which being soluble are used for plant growth. You cannot have more sugars than the
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jan 4, 2004
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                    When you wet barley, enzymes are activated that convert starch to
                    sugars which being soluble are used for plant growth.
                    You cannot have more sugars than the starch content!
                    Possible malting barley is higher than 50% starch content. But most
                    likely it is not 80%, although polished rice is about 80% starch.
                    But if you remove these sugars you can make a liquid malt extract of
                    80% sugar concentration.
                    The average content of convertible starch in typical grains are:
                    barley 50%
                    maize 66%
                    oats 50%
                    rye 59%
                    wheat 65%
                    Source:
                    http://tinyurl.com/24l5x
                    (http://journeytoforeverorg/biofuel_library/ethanol_manual/
                    manual8-10.html)
                    Note also that we are talking about a 1860 recipe!
                    0.75-1kg barley grain/4l water is a typical quantity for alcohol production.
                    Wal
                    --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc"
                    <abbababbaccc@y...> wrote:
                    > Wal, where do you get that information of only 55% being
                    convertable?
                    > I just looked at howtobrew.com and a typical pils recipe has 4kg of 2
                    > row barley malt and produces OG of 1047 in 20 liters. OG of 1047
                    > corresponds to 2.45 kg of sugar in a 20 liters of mash. Now in that
                    > case the conversion factor would be (2.45/4)*100=61% which is
                    indeed
                    > higher than the 55% you suggest. That 60% is for a normal
                    homebrewer
                    > meaning 1kg of 2 row barley has max yield of 80% (info from Tony's
                    > site) and homebrewers usually get about 75% (again from Tony's site)
                    > of that max. making 80%*75%=60% fermentable sugar from. That
                    60% is
                    > also in line with my practical experience. Now unless things work
                    > differently in your part of the universe I believe you have a slight
                    > mistake there. In practise I have exceeded that 60% while leaving
                    > grains in the mash during fermentation and distillation.
                    >
                    > Greetz, Riku
                    >
                    > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@h...> wrote:
                    > > Malt extract syrup is 80% sugars like honey.
                    > > Bur barley grain is 55% starch which can be converted to sugars by
                    > > enzymes. If you sparge these sugars you will get a malt extract
                    > which
                    > > is higher in sugars than in the original grain which also contains
                    > > protein etc..
                    > > Wal
                    > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc"
                    > <abbababbaccc@y...>
                    > > wrote:
                    > > > As I understand it 2 row barley malt has a max. yield of 80%.
                    > > > Assuming 80% efficiency (leaving grain in the mash helps) we
                    get
                    > > > 0.8*0.8 = 0.64, rounded down to 60% sugar from grains. So it
                    > should
                    > > > make 750g sugar in 4 liters -> 0.45 l ethanol -> 11.25% mash.
                    Did
                    > I
                    > > > miss something here?
                    > > >
                    > > > Greetz, Riku
                    > > >
                  • waljaco
                    Are we talking about the same malt? Using malted barley grain - When you mash malted grain you rarely get full conversion of starch (55%) to sugars - 80% is
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jan 4, 2004
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                      Are we talking about the same malt?

                      Using malted barley grain -
                      When you mash malted grain you rarely get full conversion of starch
                      (55%) to sugars - 80% is likely. From 1 kg of malted grain barley we
                      can get 0.8x550 grams of sugar(s) = 440 g
                      In 4 litres of water (1 US gal) it will make 6.4%abv
                      Using liquid malt extract (80% sugars) -
                      1 kg of liquid malt extract will give you 800 g of sugar(s)
                      In 4 litres it will produce 11.7%abv

                      Wal

                      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@y...>
                      wrote:
                      > Wal, where do you get that information of only 55% being
                      convertable?
                      > I just looked at howtobrew.com and a typical pils recipe has 4kg of
                      2
                      > row barley malt and produces OG of 1047 in 20 liters. OG of 1047
                      > corresponds to 2.45 kg of sugar in a 20 liters of mash. Now in that
                      > case the conversion factor would be (2.45/4)*100=61% which is
                      indeed
                      > higher than the 55% you suggest. That 60% is for a normal
                      homebrewer
                      > meaning 1kg of 2 row barley has max yield of 80% (info from Tony's
                      > site) and homebrewers usually get about 75% (again from Tony's
                      site)
                      > of that max. making 80%*75%=60% fermentable sugar from. That 60% is
                      > also in line with my practical experience. Now unless things work
                      > differently in your part of the universe I believe you have a
                      slight
                      > mistake there. In practise I have exceeded that 60% while leaving
                      > grains in the mash during fermentation and distillation.
                      >
                      > Greetz, Riku
                      >
                      > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@h...> wrote:
                      > > Malt extract syrup is 80% sugars like honey.
                      > > Bur barley grain is 55% starch which can be converted to sugars
                      by
                      > > enzymes. If you sparge these sugars you will get a malt extract
                      > which
                      > > is higher in sugars than in the original grain which also
                      contains
                      > > protein etc..
                      > > Wal
                      > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc"
                      > <abbababbaccc@y...>
                      > > wrote:
                      > > > As I understand it 2 row barley malt has a max. yield of 80%.
                      > > > Assuming 80% efficiency (leaving grain in the mash helps) we
                      get
                      > > > 0.8*0.8 = 0.64, rounded down to 60% sugar from grains. So it
                      > should
                      > > > make 750g sugar in 4 liters -> 0.45 l ethanol -> 11.25% mash.
                      Did
                      > I
                      > > > miss something here?
                      > > >
                      > > > Greetz, Riku
                      > > >
                    • abbababbaccc
                      Actually I have a hunch we are not talking about exactly same thing. Here s one quite good reference: http://howtobrew.com/section2/chapter12-4.html
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jan 5, 2004
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                        Actually I have a hunch we are not talking about exactly same thing.
                        Here's one quite good reference:
                        http://howtobrew.com/section2/chapter12-4.html
                        http://howtobrew.com/section2/chapter12-4-1.html

                        I'll try to double check the information when I have time. It might
                        be an issue with malted vs. unmalted barley, or just that modern
                        barley ment for brewing has more starch than one mentioned in your
                        link. Or part of the husk is removed during malting process. I'll dig
                        this further and maybe start another batch of whiskey to doublecheck.
                        I don't have specific notes but I remember getting more alcohol out
                        of few batches than the formula alcohol = malt kg * 0.6 (for sugar) *
                        0.6 (for alcohol) suggests.

                        Greetz, Riku

                        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@h...> wrote:
                        > Are we talking about the same malt?
                        >
                        > Using malted barley grain -
                        > When you mash malted grain you rarely get full conversion of starch
                        > (55%) to sugars - 80% is likely. From 1 kg of malted grain barley
                        we
                        > can get 0.8x550 grams of sugar(s) = 440 g
                        > In 4 litres of water (1 US gal) it will make 6.4%abv
                        > Using liquid malt extract (80% sugars) -
                        > 1 kg of liquid malt extract will give you 800 g of sugar(s)
                        > In 4 litres it will produce 11.7%abv
                        >
                        > Wal
                        >
                        > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc"
                        <abbababbaccc@y...>
                        > wrote:
                        > > Wal, where do you get that information of only 55% being
                        > convertable?
                        > > I just looked at howtobrew.com and a typical pils recipe has 4kg
                        of
                        > 2
                        > > row barley malt and produces OG of 1047 in 20 liters. OG of 1047
                        > > corresponds to 2.45 kg of sugar in a 20 liters of mash. Now in
                        that
                        > > case the conversion factor would be (2.45/4)*100=61% which is
                        > indeed
                        > > higher than the 55% you suggest. That 60% is for a normal
                        > homebrewer
                        > > meaning 1kg of 2 row barley has max yield of 80% (info from
                        Tony's
                        > > site) and homebrewers usually get about 75% (again from Tony's
                        > site)
                        > > of that max. making 80%*75%=60% fermentable sugar from. That 60%
                        is
                        > > also in line with my practical experience. Now unless things work
                        > > differently in your part of the universe I believe you have a
                        > slight
                        > > mistake there. In practise I have exceeded that 60% while leaving
                        > > grains in the mash during fermentation and distillation.
                        > >
                        > > Greetz, Riku
                        > >
                        > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@h...> wrote:
                        > > > Malt extract syrup is 80% sugars like honey.
                        > > > Bur barley grain is 55% starch which can be converted to sugars
                        > by
                        > > > enzymes. If you sparge these sugars you will get a malt extract
                        > > which
                        > > > is higher in sugars than in the original grain which also
                        > contains
                        > > > protein etc..
                        > > > Wal
                        > > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc"
                        > > <abbababbaccc@y...>
                        > > > wrote:
                        > > > > As I understand it 2 row barley malt has a max. yield of 80%.
                        > > > > Assuming 80% efficiency (leaving grain in the mash helps) we
                        > get
                        > > > > 0.8*0.8 = 0.64, rounded down to 60% sugar from grains. So it
                        > > should
                        > > > > make 750g sugar in 4 liters -> 0.45 l ethanol -> 11.25% mash.
                        > Did
                        > > I
                        > > > > miss something here?
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Greetz, Riku
                        > > > >
                      • abbababbaccc
                        Here s another source giving the same information: http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/recipator/recipator (numbers in ppg, sugar has a ppg of 46, meaning 100% of soluble
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jan 5, 2004
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                          Here's another source giving the same information:
                          http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/recipator/recipator
                          (numbers in ppg, sugar has a ppg of 46, meaning 100% of soluble
                          sugars)
                          Also on a question/answer board
                          (http://probrewer.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?
                          s=9ffc3df8c8ba0e8c98f90c31b7e565f6&threadid=1011) it was stated that
                          husks in barley is only ~5% of weight leaving rest for convertable
                          and non-convertable proteins.
                          Based on this I believe that the numbers at bio fuel manual can not
                          be used for barley malt meant for brewing.

                          Greetz, Riku

                          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@h...> wrote:
                          > Are we talking about the same malt?
                          >
                          > Using malted barley grain -
                          > When you mash malted grain you rarely get full conversion of starch
                          > (55%) to sugars - 80% is likely. From 1 kg of malted grain barley
                          we
                          > can get 0.8x550 grams of sugar(s) = 440 g
                          > In 4 litres of water (1 US gal) it will make 6.4%abv
                          > Using liquid malt extract (80% sugars) -
                          > 1 kg of liquid malt extract will give you 800 g of sugar(s)
                          > In 4 litres it will produce 11.7%abv
                          >
                          > Wal
                          >
                        • waljaco
                          The yeast will utilize the proteins in barley for growth but not for making alcohol. You cannot convert proteins to alcohol. Distillation of Alcohol &
                          Message 12 of 17 , Jan 5, 2004
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                            The yeast will utilize the proteins in barley for growth but not for
                            making alcohol. You cannot convert proteins to alcohol.
                            'Distillation of Alcohol & Denaturing' FG Wright, 1907, states the
                            yield from 220lbs of barley is 5.5 gals(US) of pure alcohol. It does
                            give the starch content of barley as 65% which is the highest I have
                            seen - another site (www.fao.org) gives 55%. A Russian site gives the
                            yield of 1kg of barley as 0.34 litres of pure alcohol. Therefore 1 kg
                            of barley will give you about 750 ml bottle of 37%abv.
                            Wal
                            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@y...>
                            wrote:
                            > Here's another source giving the same information:
                            > http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/recipator/recipator
                            > (numbers in ppg, sugar has a ppg of 46, meaning 100% of soluble
                            > sugars)
                            > Also on a question/answer board
                            > (http://probrewer.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?
                            > s=9ffc3df8c8ba0e8c98f90c31b7e565f6&threadid=1011) it was stated that
                            > husks in barley is only ~5% of weight leaving rest for convertable
                            > and non-convertable proteins.
                            > Based on this I believe that the numbers at bio fuel manual can not
                            > be used for barley malt meant for brewing.
                            >
                            > Greetz, Riku
                            >
                            > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@h...> wrote:
                            > > Are we talking about the same malt?
                            > >
                            > > Using malted barley grain -
                            > > When you mash malted grain you rarely get full conversion of starch
                            > > (55%) to sugars - 80% is likely. From 1 kg of malted grain barley
                            > we
                            > > can get 0.8x550 grams of sugar(s) = 440 g
                            > > In 4 litres of water (1 US gal) it will make 6.4%abv
                            > > Using liquid malt extract (80% sugars) -
                            > > 1 kg of liquid malt extract will give you 800 g of sugar(s)
                            > > In 4 litres it will produce 11.7%abv
                            > >
                            > > Wal
                            > >
                          • Hector A. Landaeta C.
                            ... Indeed! Riku¹s misunderstanding perhaps comes from the fact that beer related site¹s info do not include malting numbers. From centuries old, maltsters
                            Message 13 of 17 , Jan 5, 2004
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                              On 1/4/04 8:41 PM, "waljaco" <waljaco@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > You cannot have more sugars than the starch content!
                              >
                              Indeed! Riku¹s misunderstanding perhaps comes from the fact that beer
                              related site¹s info do not include malting numbers. From centuries old,
                              maltsters and brewers parted ways. Before that you had to malt your own
                              grain if you wanted to make beer but malting is such and arcane and complex
                              art-science (I gather much more so than brewing) that it was only natural
                              that this occurred. Not all of the malts weight is starch, but I¹m not sure
                              it¹s just 50%. Of that starch content present in malts, and if you have a
                              well designed, built to purpose and VERY efficient mash and lauter tun, and
                              also use a good quality (high ­over 40%- Kolbach index or highly
                              Œconverted¹) malt, and have a well controlled and even mash temperature plan
                              you can go as high as the mid 80¹s in yield efficiency. Industrial record
                              holder is a German brewery manufacturer (Huppman) who claims a consistent
                              84% efficiency on it¹s new Merlin mashing system, and that¹s almost too good
                              to be true. Of course all of this efficiency number are relate to the known
                              convertible starch content, which in the first place is not all of the
                              starch content, and which in turn is not all of the malted grain¹s weight.
                              I¹ll check my dusty brewing books and clarify this with you guys, unless
                              Walter finds something in the net and beats me to it.
                              Salud!
                              --
                              Hector Landaeta.
                              Colonia Tovar - Venezuela.



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Lee Fugatt
                              Does a pound of lead take up more or less room than a pound of alluminum? Lee ... From: waljaco To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004
                              Message 14 of 17 , Jan 5, 2004
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                                Does a pound of lead take up more or less room than a pound of alluminum? Lee
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: waljaco
                                To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 4:41 PM
                                Subject: [Distillers] Re: "Potteen Whisky"


                                When you wet barley, enzymes are activated that convert starch to
                                sugars which being soluble are used for plant growth.
                                You cannot have more sugars than the starch content!
                                Possible malting barley is higher than 50% starch content. But most
                                likely it is not 80%, although polished rice is about 80% starch.
                                But if you remove these sugars you can make a liquid malt extract of
                                80% sugar concentration.
                                The average content of convertible starch in typical grains are:
                                barley 50%
                                maize 66%
                                oats 50%
                                rye 59%
                                wheat 65%
                                Source:
                                http://tinyurl.com/24l5x
                                (http://journeytoforeverorg/biofuel_library/ethanol_manual/
                                manual8-10.html)
                                Note also that we are talking about a 1860 recipe!
                                0.75-1kg barley grain/4l water is a typical quantity for alcohol production.
                                Wal
                                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc"
                                <abbababbaccc@y...> wrote:
                                > Wal, where do you get that information of only 55% being
                                convertable?
                                > I just looked at howtobrew.com and a typical pils recipe has 4kg of 2
                                > row barley malt and produces OG of 1047 in 20 liters. OG of 1047
                                > corresponds to 2.45 kg of sugar in a 20 liters of mash. Now in that
                                > case the conversion factor would be (2.45/4)*100=61% which is
                                indeed
                                > higher than the 55% you suggest. That 60% is for a normal
                                homebrewer
                                > meaning 1kg of 2 row barley has max yield of 80% (info from Tony's
                                > site) and homebrewers usually get about 75% (again from Tony's site)
                                > of that max. making 80%*75%=60% fermentable sugar from. That
                                60% is
                                > also in line with my practical experience. Now unless things work
                                > differently in your part of the universe I believe you have a slight
                                > mistake there. In practise I have exceeded that 60% while leaving
                                > grains in the mash during fermentation and distillation.
                                >
                                > Greetz, Riku
                                >
                                > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@h...> wrote:
                                > > Malt extract syrup is 80% sugars like honey.
                                > > Bur barley grain is 55% starch which can be converted to sugars by
                                > > enzymes. If you sparge these sugars you will get a malt extract
                                > which
                                > > is higher in sugars than in the original grain which also contains
                                > > protein etc..
                                > > Wal
                                > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc"
                                > <abbababbaccc@y...>
                                > > wrote:
                                > > > As I understand it 2 row barley malt has a max. yield of 80%.
                                > > > Assuming 80% efficiency (leaving grain in the mash helps) we
                                get
                                > > > 0.8*0.8 = 0.64, rounded down to 60% sugar from grains. So it
                                > should
                                > > > make 750g sugar in 4 liters -> 0.45 l ethanol -> 11.25% mash.
                                Did
                                > I
                                > > > miss something here?
                                > > >
                                > > > Greetz, Riku
                                > > >



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                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • waljaco
                                If 220lbs produces 5.5 US gals of pure alcohol, this is equivalent of 1kg producing 0.22litres which is lower than the Russian figure of 0.34litres. Using the
                                Message 15 of 17 , Jan 5, 2004
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                                  If 220lbs produces 5.5 US gals of pure alcohol, this is equivalent of
                                  1kg producing 0.22litres which is lower than the Russian figure of
                                  0.34litres. Using the fact that 100 grams of sugar produces 0.60l of
                                  pure alcohol, 0.22l yield indicates that only some 400g out of the
                                  1kg of barley grain was converted to alcohol i.e. 40%! This is
                                  consistent with a starch content in barley of 55% and a conversion
                                  rate of about 80%.
                                  Wal
                                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@h...> wrote:
                                  > The yeast will utilize the proteins in barley for growth but not for
                                  > making alcohol. You cannot convert proteins to alcohol.
                                  > 'Distillation of Alcohol & Denaturing' FG Wright, 1907, states the
                                  > yield from 220lbs of barley is 5.5 gals(US) of pure alcohol. It does
                                  > give the starch content of barley as 65% which is the highest I have
                                  > seen - another site (www.fao.org) gives 55%. A Russian site gives
                                  the
                                  > yield of 1kg of barley as 0.34 litres of pure alcohol. Therefore 1
                                  kg
                                  > of barley will give you about 750 ml bottle of 37%abv.
                                  > Wal
                                  > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc"
                                  <abbababbaccc@y...>
                                  > wrote:
                                  > > Here's another source giving the same information:
                                  > > http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/recipator/recipator
                                  > > (numbers in ppg, sugar has a ppg of 46, meaning 100% of soluble
                                  > > sugars)
                                  > > Also on a question/answer board
                                  > > (http://probrewer.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?
                                  > > s=9ffc3df8c8ba0e8c98f90c31b7e565f6&threadid=1011) it was stated
                                  that
                                  > > husks in barley is only ~5% of weight leaving rest for
                                  convertable
                                  > > and non-convertable proteins.
                                  > > Based on this I believe that the numbers at bio fuel manual can
                                  not
                                  > > be used for barley malt meant for brewing.
                                  > >
                                  > > Greetz, Riku
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@h...> wrote:
                                  > > > Are we talking about the same malt?
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Using malted barley grain -
                                  > > > When you mash malted grain you rarely get full conversion of
                                  starch
                                  > > > (55%) to sugars - 80% is likely. From 1 kg of malted grain
                                  barley
                                  > > we
                                  > > > can get 0.8x550 grams of sugar(s) = 440 g
                                  > > > In 4 litres of water (1 US gal) it will make 6.4%abv
                                  > > > Using liquid malt extract (80% sugars) -
                                  > > > 1 kg of liquid malt extract will give you 800 g of sugar(s)
                                  > > > In 4 litres it will produce 11.7%abv
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Wal
                                  > > >
                                • waljaco
                                  Oops! 100 g of sugar produces 60ml alcohol (0.06l or 6%abv) 1kg of sugar produced 600ml alcohol (0.6l) Wal ... of ... of ... for ... does ... have ... 1
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Jan 5, 2004
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                                    Oops!
                                    100 g of sugar produces 60ml alcohol (0.06l or 6%abv)
                                    1kg of sugar produced 600ml alcohol (0.6l)
                                    Wal
                                    --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@h...> wrote:
                                    > If 220lbs produces 5.5 US gals of pure alcohol, this is equivalent
                                    of
                                    > 1kg producing 0.22litres which is lower than the Russian figure of
                                    > 0.34litres. Using the fact that 1000 grams of sugar produces 0.60l
                                    of
                                    > pure alcohol, 0.22l yield indicates that only some 400g out of the
                                    > 1kg of barley grain was converted to alcohol i.e. 40%! This is
                                    > consistent with a starch content in barley of 55% and a conversion
                                    > rate of about 80%.
                                    > Wal
                                    > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@h...> wrote:
                                    > > The yeast will utilize the proteins in barley for growth but not
                                    for
                                    > > making alcohol. You cannot convert proteins to alcohol.
                                    > > 'Distillation of Alcohol & Denaturing' FG Wright, 1907, states the
                                    > > yield from 220lbs of barley is 5.5 gals(US) of pure alcohol. It
                                    does
                                    > > give the starch content of barley as 65% which is the highest I
                                    have
                                    > > seen - another site (www.fao.org) gives 55%. A Russian site gives
                                    > the
                                    > > yield of 1kg of barley as 0.34 litres of pure alcohol. Therefore
                                    1
                                    > kg
                                    > > of barley will give you about 750 ml bottle of 37%abv.
                                    > > Wal
                                    > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc"
                                    > <abbababbaccc@y...>
                                    > > wrote:
                                    > > > Here's another source giving the same information:
                                    > > > http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/recipator/recipator
                                    > > > (numbers in ppg, sugar has a ppg of 46, meaning 100% of soluble
                                    > > > sugars)
                                    > > > Also on a question/answer board
                                    > > > (http://probrewer.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?
                                    > > > s=9ffc3df8c8ba0e8c98f90c31b7e565f6&threadid=1011) it was stated
                                    > that
                                    > > > husks in barley is only ~5% of weight leaving rest for
                                    > convertable
                                    > > > and non-convertable proteins.
                                    > > > Based on this I believe that the numbers at bio fuel manual can
                                    > not
                                    > > > be used for barley malt meant for brewing.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Greetz, Riku
                                    > > >
                                    > > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@h...>
                                    wrote:
                                    > > > > Are we talking about the same malt?
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Using malted barley grain -
                                    > > > > When you mash malted grain you rarely get full conversion of
                                    > starch
                                    > > > > (55%) to sugars - 80% is likely. From 1 kg of malted grain
                                    > barley
                                    > > > we
                                    > > > > can get 0.8x550 grams of sugar(s) = 440 g
                                    > > > > In 4 litres of water (1 US gal) it will make 6.4%abv
                                    > > > > Using liquid malt extract (80% sugars) -
                                    > > > > 1 kg of liquid malt extract will give you 800 g of sugar(s)
                                    > > > > In 4 litres it will produce 11.7%abv
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Wal
                                    > > > >
                                  • abbababbaccc
                                    I think the difference in our numbers is derived from barley grain vs. malted + crushed barley. Maybe someone can explain the difference between those two.
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Jan 5, 2004
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                                      I think the difference in our numbers is derived from barley grain
                                      vs. malted + crushed barley. Maybe someone can explain the difference
                                      between those two. Seems that crushed 2 row barley malt I'm using
                                      will provide 80% of weight in fermentable sugars in laboratory
                                      conditions (like 65-70% in my case), while plain barley grain only
                                      has ~55% of protein. So what's the difference here? I know this is a
                                      bit long winded for vodka makers but skip this thread if not
                                      interested.

                                      Greetz, Riku

                                      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@h...> wrote:
                                      > Oops!
                                      > 100 g of sugar produces 60ml alcohol (0.06l or 6%abv)
                                      > 1kg of sugar produced 600ml alcohol (0.6l)
                                      > Wal
                                      > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@h...> wrote:
                                      > > If 220lbs produces 5.5 US gals of pure alcohol, this is
                                      equivalent
                                      > of
                                      > > 1kg producing 0.22litres which is lower than the Russian figure
                                      of
                                      > > 0.34litres. Using the fact that 1000 grams of sugar produces
                                      0.60l
                                      > of
                                      > > pure alcohol, 0.22l yield indicates that only some 400g out of
                                      the
                                      > > 1kg of barley grain was converted to alcohol i.e. 40%! This is
                                      > > consistent with a starch content in barley of 55% and a
                                      conversion
                                      > > rate of about 80%.
                                      > > Wal
                                      > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@h...> wrote:
                                      > > > The yeast will utilize the proteins in barley for growth but
                                      not
                                      > for
                                      > > > making alcohol. You cannot convert proteins to alcohol.
                                      > > > 'Distillation of Alcohol & Denaturing' FG Wright, 1907, states
                                      the
                                      > > > yield from 220lbs of barley is 5.5 gals(US) of pure alcohol. It
                                      > does
                                      > > > give the starch content of barley as 65% which is the highest I
                                      > have
                                      > > > seen - another site (www.fao.org) gives 55%. A Russian site
                                      gives
                                      > > the
                                      > > > yield of 1kg of barley as 0.34 litres of pure alcohol.
                                      Therefore
                                      > 1
                                      > > kg
                                      > > > of barley will give you about 750 ml bottle of 37%abv.
                                      > > > Wal
                                      > > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc"
                                      > > <abbababbaccc@y...>
                                      > > > wrote:
                                      > > > > Here's another source giving the same information:
                                      > > > > http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/recipator/recipator
                                      > > > > (numbers in ppg, sugar has a ppg of 46, meaning 100% of
                                      soluble
                                      > > > > sugars)
                                      > > > > Also on a question/answer board
                                      > > > > (http://probrewer.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?
                                      > > > > s=9ffc3df8c8ba0e8c98f90c31b7e565f6&threadid=1011) it was
                                      stated
                                      > > that
                                      > > > > husks in barley is only ~5% of weight leaving rest for
                                      > > convertable
                                      > > > > and non-convertable proteins.
                                      > > > > Based on this I believe that the numbers at bio fuel manual
                                      can
                                      > > not
                                      > > > > be used for barley malt meant for brewing.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Greetz, Riku
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@h...>
                                      > wrote:
                                      > > > > > Are we talking about the same malt?
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Using malted barley grain -
                                      > > > > > When you mash malted grain you rarely get full conversion
                                      of
                                      > > starch
                                      > > > > > (55%) to sugars - 80% is likely. From 1 kg of malted grain
                                      > > barley
                                      > > > > we
                                      > > > > > can get 0.8x550 grams of sugar(s) = 440 g
                                      > > > > > In 4 litres of water (1 US gal) it will make 6.4%abv
                                      > > > > > Using liquid malt extract (80% sugars) -
                                      > > > > > 1 kg of liquid malt extract will give you 800 g of sugar(s)
                                      > > > > > In 4 litres it will produce 11.7%abv
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Wal
                                      > > > > >
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