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Re: [Distillers] Re: Technobabble and the burst-mode option.

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  • Hector A. Landaeta C.
    ... Hola Jiim! Not quite. You see, at last with my a bit oversized condenser (a 5 gal./hour ex water distiller¹s @ 3 x 22 inch/38 tube shotgun) when I
    Message 1 of 13 , Dec 31, 2003
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      On 12/25/03 8:38 PM, "jimpuchai" <puchai4@...> wrote:
      >
      > Assuming you are looking for a pure product, after you have
      > established a ballpark flow rate for the cooling water in your
      > particular system, it should only be necessary to accurately control
      > the temperature in the vapour space above the packing to 78C.

      Hola Jiim!
      Not quite. You see, at last with my a bit oversized condenser (a 5
      gal./hour ex water distiller¹s @ 3 x 22 inch/38 tube shotgun) when I reduce
      power at the boiler if I don¹t reduce cooling water flow I¹ll induce too
      much reflux at the column head thus hurting output. I¹m not into purity but
      flavor and aroma (can¹t see the use of sugar washes), so what I¹m interested
      in is keeping 80 C at head, and getting the batch done the faster the
      better. You gave me a nice idea because I have three thermo-wells in my
      still, one at boiler top, one at the foam knock-down bell (second ³plate²),
      and the other at column top. I¹ll have to check if the Honeywell 4 input
      PID can be programmed to close the heart cut solenoid and open the tails one
      once the boiler reaches >95 C and the head gets over 83 C. On the other
      hand my LPG burner has three concentric rings independently controlled but
      that right now share the same gas feed. Perhaps by modifying this and
      giving at least to the center, smaller ring, and independent gas feed I can
      both use it as a pilot flame (don¹t know if the small, cheapo solenoids I
      plan to use can be proportionally controlled. I think they only work in
      on-off mode) and a minimum heat input set point to induce the heart to tail
      separation mentioned above. Any other thoughts are most welcome.
      Salud amigo!
      --
      Héctor Landaeta.
      Colonia Tovar - Venezuela.

      P.S: I remember Walter once posted a link to this German guys that
      manufactured kind of a PLC specially suited for controlling distillers.
      Check this link (http://www.wimtec.com/english/desticontrol/index.html) then
      go ahead and drool good!


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • jimpuchai
      ... control ... when I reduce ... induce too ... into purity but ... I¹m interested ... the ... in my ... ³plate²), ... Honeywell 4 input ... tails one ...
      Message 2 of 13 , Jan 1, 2004
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        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Hector A. Landaeta C."
        <coloniera@c...> wrote:
        > On 12/25/03 8:38 PM, "jimpuchai" <puchai4@o...> wrote:
        > >
        > > Assuming you are looking for a pure product, after you have
        > > established a ballpark flow rate for the cooling water in your
        > > particular system, it should only be necessary to accurately
        control
        > > the temperature in the vapour space above the packing to 78C.
        >
        > Hola Jiim!
        > Not quite. You see, at last with my a bit oversized condenser (a 5
        > gal./hour ex water distiller¹s @ 3 x 22 inch/38 tube shotgun)
        when I reduce
        > power at the boiler if I don¹t reduce cooling water flow I¹ll
        induce too
        > much reflux at the column head thus hurting output. I¹m not
        into
        purity but
        > flavor and aroma (can¹t see the use of sugar washes), so what
        I¹m
        interested
        > in is keeping 80 C at head, and getting the batch done the faster
        the
        > better. You gave me a nice idea because I have three thermo-wells
        in my
        > still, one at boiler top, one at the foam knock-down bell (second
        ³plate²),
        > and the other at column top. I¹ll have to check if the
        Honeywell
        4 input
        > PID can be programmed to close the heart cut solenoid and open the
        tails one
        > once the boiler reaches >95 C and the head gets over 83 C. On the
        other
        > hand my LPG burner has three concentric rings independently
        controlled but
        > that right now share the same gas feed. Perhaps by modifying this
        and
        > giving at least to the center, smaller ring, and independent gas
        feed I can
        > both use it as a pilot flame (don¹t know if the small, cheapo
        solenoids I
        > plan to use can be proportionally controlled. I think they only
        work in
        > on-off mode) and a minimum heat input set point to induce the
        heart to tail
        > separation mentioned above. Any other thoughts are most welcome.
        > Salud amigo!
        > --
        > Héctor Landaeta.
        > Colonia Tovar - Venezuela.
        >
        > P.S: I remember Walter once posted a link to this German guys that
        > manufactured kind of a PLC specially suited for controlling
        distillers.
        > Check this link
        (http://www.wimtec.com/english/desticontrol/index.html) then
        > go ahead and drool good!
        >
        >
        Hello Hector,
        I'm drooling real good. That site is a bit sparse or perhaps under
        end of year refurbishment. I shall check it again in a week or so.

        It sounds as though you have some heavy metal put to a good purpose
        there. One thing to remember about PID's and in fact any micro
        processor device, is that if you can imagine it, and verbalize it,
        then you can jolly well have it. The price may hurt a little, but if
        you specified correctly, you are going to save a lot of time, effort
        and hopefully money. One other thing is that micro-controllers and
        solid state relays are a marriage made in heaven when it comes to
        doing some real work.
        A couple of years ago I learned how to write assembly language and
        to burn Microchip PIC controllers. I am now undecided whether to
        write code or write checks! You actually end up writing code in your
        head when you are trying to sleep. Very addictive.

        I suppose the thing that struck me reading about your setup, is the
        three burner gas chomper. I have one too but no longer use it. If
        you have a reliable electricity supply, and no appagon, (rolling
        blackout) then the convenience, cost and controllability of mains
        electricity is hard to beat. Safety is one other consideration. Yes,
        I know that you guys are pumping gas out of the ground, but it does
        seem something akin to wearing a hair shirt, to actually use it if
        you don't have to. So much easier to turn elements on and off with
        an electronic relay than dealing with gas and its less pleasant
        aspects. Just my friendly 10 cents.

        You are well equipped to see what is happening with your apparatus.
        I also have three thermo wells. Boiler fluid temp. Boiler vapour
        temp. just at the column base, and the vapour temp. at the top of
        the packing. Just couldn't do without them. It would be like driving
        blind.

        Just to change the subject for a moment. This terrible, terrible,
        business in Iran led me to think about you and your geographical
        location. There are a few posters that actually give their location,
        and you are one of them. Down memory lane here we go.
        On October 18, 1981, I was safely tucked up in bed in my apartment
        at Calle 110 North, Bogata, Columbia, Fairly close to the Unicentro.
        I was on the 23rd floor of a 24 story building. At some very early
        hour I was thrown out of my bed and every breakable in the place
        performed it's ultimate function and self-destructed on the nearest
        hard surface. The stairways were filled with screaming people trying
        to run down the stairs and the lifts were inoperative.
        It all quieted down after a few hours when Caracol radio announced
        the the earthquake had been mostly centred in Venezuela. I simply
        can't imagine what the shock and damage were like close to the
        epicentre. I didn't stay long after that, finding a nice little
        earner in Haiti, but I still remember that day most vividly. Do you
        have any memories of this disaster?
        Regards,
        Jim.
      • Hector A. Landaeta C.
        ... Hola Jim! Well, that quake was highly localized on a coastal city on the Araya Peninsula (Northeastern part of Venezuela) called Cumana that sits smack in
        Message 3 of 13 , Jan 1, 2004
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          On 1/1/04 7:13 AM, "jimpuchai" <puchai4@...> wrote:
          >
          > ...It all quieted down after a few hours when Caracol radio announced
          > the the earthquake had been mostly centred in Venezuela. I simply
          > can't imagine what the shock and damage were like close to the
          > epicentre. I didn't stay long after that, finding a nice little
          > earner in Haiti, but I still remember that day most vividly. Do you
          > have any memories of this disaster?

          Hola Jim!
          Well, that quake was highly localized on a coastal city on the Araya
          Peninsula (Northeastern part of Venezuela) called Cumana that sits smack in
          the seismic fault line. I was then living in Valencia working for Polar
          brewery at a 12th floor building that shook just a little, some of my
          neighbors didn¹t even notice. Here it hit early in the morning, 8 or 8:30.
          The people in Cumana not only got a 6 Richter scale shake but also a 20
          meter high wave tsunami so go figure. The good part is that there was not
          too big a life loss. I don¹t remember exactly but I gather it was less than
          200 souls. On the other hand almost everybody in a small neighboring town
          called Cariaco lost their homes and relief aid was very scarce, late and
          insufficient. You wont belive this but life loss was higher as a result of
          government and sanitary authorities inaction (there was a cholera outbreak
          there) after the quake.
          Salud y Feliz Año amigos!
          --
          Hector Landaeta.
          Colonia Tovar - Venezuela.



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Brandon Lee
          Hector-- I have had several people to approach me about possibly opening a small scale distillery here in the southern part of the U.S. in the middle of the
          Message 4 of 13 , Jan 2, 2004
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            Hector-- I have had several people to approach me about possibly opening a small scale distillery here in the southern part of the U.S. in the middle of the sugar cane country here and was wondering if u might give me some info --or if anyone has info on column sizes--fermenter capacity-- volume in gals. types of yeast etc.. -- any help would be appreciated
            Your brother in the spirits
            Blueflame456
            "Hector A. Landaeta C." <coloniera@...> wrote:
            On 1/1/04 7:13 AM, "jimpuchai" <puchai4@...> wrote:
            >
            > ...It all quieted down after a few hours when Caracol radio announced
            > the the earthquake had been mostly centred in Venezuela. I simply
            > can't imagine what the shock and damage were like close to the
            > epicentre. I didn't stay long after that, finding a nice little
            > earner in Haiti, but I still remember that day most vividly. Do you
            > have any memories of this disaster?

            Hola Jim!
            Well, that quake was highly localized on a coastal city on the Araya
            Peninsula (Northeastern part of Venezuela) called Cumana that sits smack in
            the seismic fault line. I was then living in Valencia working for Polar
            brewery at a 12th floor building that shook just a little, some of my
            neighbors didn�t even notice. Here it hit early in the morning, 8 or 8:30.
            The people in Cumana not only got a 6 Richter scale shake but also a 20
            meter high wave tsunami so go figure. The good part is that there was not
            too big a life loss. I don�t remember exactly but I gather it was less than
            200 souls. On the other hand almost everybody in a small neighboring town
            called Cariaco lost their homes and relief aid was very scarce, late and
            insufficient. You wont belive this but life loss was higher as a result of
            government and sanitary authorities inaction (there was a cholera outbreak
            there) after the quake.
            Salud y Feliz A�o amigos!
            --
            Hector Landaeta.
            Colonia Tovar - Venezuela.



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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          • jimpuchai
            ... Araya ... smack in ... Polar ... my ... 8 or 8:30. ... a 20 ... was not ... was less than ... neighboring town ... late and ... result of ... outbreak ...
            Message 5 of 13 , Jan 2, 2004
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              >
              > Hola Jim!
              > Well, that quake was highly localized on a coastal city on the
              Araya
              > Peninsula (Northeastern part of Venezuela) called Cumana that sits
              smack in
              > the seismic fault line. I was then living in Valencia working for
              Polar
              > brewery at a 12th floor building that shook just a little, some of
              my
              > neighbors didn¹t even notice. Here it hit early in the morning,
              8
              or 8:30.
              > The people in Cumana not only got a 6 Richter scale shake but also
              a 20
              > meter high wave tsunami so go figure. The good part is that there
              was not
              > too big a life loss. I don¹t remember exactly but I gather it
              was
              less than
              > 200 souls. On the other hand almost everybody in a small
              neighboring town
              > called Cariaco lost their homes and relief aid was very scarce,
              late and
              > insufficient. You wont belive this but life loss was higher as a
              result of
              > government and sanitary authorities inaction (there was a cholera
              outbreak
              > there) after the quake.
              > Salud y Feliz Año amigos!
              > --
              > Hector Landaeta.
              > Colonia Tovar - Venezuela.
              >
              >

              Many thanks Hector.
              This goes some way to explaining the different intensities felt in
              different parts of Columbia.
              Just a short anecdote here.

              Above me, on the 24th floor, lived a very large Brazilian lady. An
              opera singer I believe. She was completely hysterical, and
              complained over and over that her bed had attacked her. I had a
              quick look at the bedroom, and I could see why she may have got that
              idea.

              The bed was nearly centred in the room on a square rug. The floor
              was tiled. The lady always wore silks and this extended to her
              pyjamas. Her bed had satin sheets.
              I conjectured that the bed had moved with the floor and rug when
              the 'quake struck. The lady however, was near frictionless and well
              supplied with inertia. The bed had dumped her on the tiled portion
              of the floor as it moved away from her, and then, because she was
              still slippery and heavy, when the floor and bed came back, she was
              perfectly positioned for the bed to give her a dreadful smack.

              She didn't believe a word of it, and as far as I know, slept on the
              floor after that.

              Cheers,
              Jim.
            • Hector A. Landaeta C.
              ... Hola Brandon! You ve got a golden opportunity there, hang on tight on it! I haven t kept my promise of posting my new still s photos but will do shortly.
              Message 6 of 13 , Jan 3, 2004
              • 0 Attachment
                On 1/2/04 9:30 AM, "Brandon Lee" <blueflame456@...> wrote:

                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Hector-- I have had several people to approach me about possibly opening a
                > small scale distillery here in the southern part of the U.S. in the middle of
                > the sugar cane country here and was wondering if u might give me some info
                > --or if anyone has info on column sizes--fermenter capacity-- volume in
                > gals. types of yeast etc.. -- any help would be appreciated

                Hola Brandon!
                You've got a golden opportunity there, hang on tight on it! I haven't kept
                my promise of posting my new still's photos but will do shortly. Anyway I
                just deleted the drawings I had in Yahoo Groups about the foam knock down
                device (what German still makers call the "helmet") that you will surely
                need to have on top of your boiler because sugar cane juice wine foams a lot
                and then some. You want your cachaça still to be a pot still, any other
                thing is just wastefull. The finest tasting spirit I have distilled is by
                far the product of fermented sugar cane juice. I'm obsessed with malt
                whiskey, mind you, and it's proven to be quite a challenge to make something
                better than what you can find in a store but there's something about the
                taste of cachaça do cañina that makes you think of a tropical beach at
                night, warm breeze flowing, and a sweaty, tremulous garota near your skin.
                Also, the best añejo rum I've ever had (21 years old) came from a blend of
                aged sugar cane spirit. Also, as a base for making fruit extracts (at
                higher puritues, I typically use it for this at 86% ABV) it's hard to beat,
                specially fore tropical fruits like bananas, coconut, passion fruit, mangoes
                and the like.
                I tried fermenting sugar cane juice with 4 types of yeast and the one that
                knocked down the others hands down for this specific purpose was Uvaferm (a
                Danstar brand, also a subsidiary of Lallemand) BC which is a Saccharomyces
                bayanus strain. This is a very efficient, ethanol tolerant champagne yeast.
                As fermenters I've used SS but found that HDPE water tanks work as well
                (take in account that this wine will be distilled so you need not be so
                choosy about fermenter materials).
                I've found that the most problems are located in the juice extraction.
                There is the sugar maker's way that implies shredding, then pressing, then
                imbibing in water and then re-pressing. This method is fine if you're going
                to perform several high temp boilings as in the sugar process but for a
                cleaner taste I've found it's better to ferment the cane uncooked. The
                thing is how do you go around the sanitary aspects of this since the cane
                comes out of the field with some dirt and a relatively thick film of fungus
                adhered to it's sides. The only way to thoroughly clean the cane is by
                scubbing with a hard brush and plenty water. Oh, by the way, sugar
                industries most of the times pick their cane after a controlled burning that
                takes care of the cumbersome foliage. This kind of "burnt" cane tastes
                somewhat different from "raw"cane. I've invented a motorized sugar cane
                scrubber that looks like something from the mind of Rube Goldberg. This
                version doesn't work too good but I gather that in the next one some of the
                kinks will be ironed out. I honestly believe you should go the way the big
                Brazilian cachaça industries go: press the cane with dirt and all and then
                pasteurize the juice. It's been years I've being yearning for a steam
                boiler but the cost of buying one plus the mods to all my existing pots and
                boilers has proven hard to justify in this trying times. It's a step I have
                to take but not now. If you're planning from scratch go the steam way.
                It's way more efficient and economic than any other heating method. So
                budget a couple small plate heat exchangers if you plan to use steam to
                pasteurize your sugar cane juice. Also, shop around for a good cane press.
                A good, efficient press should give you yields a bit above 50% (typically
                you obtain 500 liters of sugar cane juice out of a metric ton of cane or 120
                US gallons for every US short ton). Small cane presses normally have three
                rollers: the first cuts through the knots and the other two press the cane
                and pull the bagasse out of the juice way (bagasse absorbs moisture more
                effectively than a sponge). Don't try to cut costs on this item. Buy
                something proven and of warranted performance. This sole machine can make
                or break your cachaça business.
                I think this message is getting way to long for other people not directly
                interested in sugar cane spirits Brandon. If you need more info, please
                send me a private message with your doubts.
                Salud!
                --
                Héctor Landaeta.
                Colonia Tovar - Venezuela.
              • Robert Elliott
                Hello Group and Hector, Your message may have been long, but it was certainly great reading. Please don t let this stop you from writing with great detail in
                Message 7 of 13 , Jan 3, 2004
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                  Hello Group and Hector,

                  Your message may have been long, but it was certainly great reading. Please don't let this stop you from writing with great detail in the future.

                  Cheers,

                  Bob
                  Australia

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Hector A. Landaeta C.
                  To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 1:20 PM
                  Subject: Re: [Distillers] Re: Technobabble and the burst-mode option.


                  On 1/2/04 9:30 AM, "Brandon Lee" <blueflame456@...> wrote:

                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Hector-- I have had several people to approach me about possibly opening a
                  > small scale distillery here in the southern part of the U.S. in the middle of
                  > the sugar cane country here and was wondering if u might give me some info
                  > --or if anyone has info on column sizes--fermenter capacity-- volume in
                  > gals. types of yeast etc.. -- any help would be appreciated

                  Hola Brandon!
                  You've got a golden opportunity there, hang on tight on it! I haven't kept
                  my promise of posting my new still's photos but will do shortly. Anyway I
                  just deleted the drawings I had in Yahoo Groups about the foam knock down
                  device (what German still makers call the "helmet") that you will surely
                  need to have on top of your boiler because sugar cane juice wine foams a lot
                  and then some. You want your cachaça still to be a pot still, any other
                  thing is just wastefull. The finest tasting spirit I have distilled is by
                  far the product of fermented sugar cane juice. I'm obsessed with malt
                  whiskey, mind you, and it's proven to be quite a challenge to make something
                  better than what you can find in a store but there's something about the
                  taste of cachaça do cañina that makes you think of a tropical beach at
                  night, warm breeze flowing, and a sweaty, tremulous garota near your skin.
                  Also, the best añejo rum I've ever had (21 years old) came from a blend of
                  aged sugar cane spirit. Also, as a base for making fruit extracts (at
                  higher puritues, I typically use it for this at 86% ABV) it's hard to beat,
                  specially fore tropical fruits like bananas, coconut, passion fruit, mangoes
                  and the like.
                  I tried fermenting sugar cane juice with 4 types of yeast and the one that
                  knocked down the others hands down for this specific purpose was Uvaferm (a
                  Danstar brand, also a subsidiary of Lallemand) BC which is a Saccharomyces
                  bayanus strain. This is a very efficient, ethanol tolerant champagne yeast.
                  As fermenters I've used SS but found that HDPE water tanks work as well
                  (take in account that this wine will be distilled so you need not be so
                  choosy about fermenter materials).
                  I've found that the most problems are located in the juice extraction.
                  There is the sugar maker's way that implies shredding, then pressing, then
                  imbibing in water and then re-pressing. This method is fine if you're going
                  to perform several high temp boilings as in the sugar process but for a
                  cleaner taste I've found it's better to ferment the cane uncooked. The
                  thing is how do you go around the sanitary aspects of this since the cane
                  comes out of the field with some dirt and a relatively thick film of fungus
                  adhered to it's sides. The only way to thoroughly clean the cane is by
                  scubbing with a hard brush and plenty water. Oh, by the way, sugar
                  industries most of the times pick their cane after a controlled burning that
                  takes care of the cumbersome foliage. This kind of "burnt" cane tastes
                  somewhat different from "raw"cane. I've invented a motorized sugar cane
                  scrubber that looks like something from the mind of Rube Goldberg. This
                  version doesn't work too good but I gather that in the next one some of the
                  kinks will be ironed out. I honestly believe you should go the way the big
                  Brazilian cachaça industries go: press the cane with dirt and all and then
                  pasteurize the juice. It's been years I've being yearning for a steam
                  boiler but the cost of buying one plus the mods to all my existing pots and
                  boilers has proven hard to justify in this trying times. It's a step I have
                  to take but not now. If you're planning from scratch go the steam way.
                  It's way more efficient and economic than any other heating method. So
                  budget a couple small plate heat exchangers if you plan to use steam to
                  pasteurize your sugar cane juice. Also, shop around for a good cane press.
                  A good, efficient press should give you yields a bit above 50% (typically
                  you obtain 500 liters of sugar cane juice out of a metric ton of cane or 120
                  US gallons for every US short ton). Small cane presses normally have three
                  rollers: the first cuts through the knots and the other two press the cane
                  and pull the bagasse out of the juice way (bagasse absorbs moisture more
                  effectively than a sponge). Don't try to cut costs on this item. Buy
                  something proven and of warranted performance. This sole machine can make
                  or break your cachaça business.
                  I think this message is getting way to long for other people not directly
                  interested in sugar cane spirits Brandon. If you need more info, please
                  send me a private message with your doubts.
                  Salud!
                  --
                  Héctor Landaeta.
                  Colonia Tovar - Venezuela.



                  To unsubscribe from this group send a blank email to distillers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  Distillers list archives : http://archive.nnytech.net/
                  FAQ and other information at http://homedistiller.org



                  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  Yahoo! Groups Links

                  a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Distillers/

                  b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  Distillers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                  c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Hector A. Landaeta C.
                  ... Hola Bob! Well, you see, I¹m a net surfer from old and there was a time, before broadband, even some years before Internet (BSS interest groups for
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jan 5, 2004
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                    On 1/4/04 12:45 AM, "Robert Elliott" <r_selliott@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Your message may have been long, but it was certainly great reading. Please
                    > don't let this stop you from writing with great detail in the future.

                    Hola Bob!
                    Well, you see, I¹m a net surfer from old and there was a time, before
                    broadband, even some years before Internet (BSS interest groups for
                    example), when messages above 16 Kb where considered very rude.
                    ³Netiquette² I gather we used to call it. An American got as far as to
                    outline 12 or 16 points that condensed that criteria. On early, server
                    based digest forums, I remember they used to paste in the welcome message
                    this list of ³common sense² (IMO that is such a misnomer) simple rules you
                    had to strictly adhere to Œor else¹. It¹s been a long time since I¹ve seen
                    that list and any messages I could have saved with it I must have left 3 or
                    4 computers ago or in a 3.5² floppy disk my present computer doesn¹t even
                    have a drive for! Not that I¹m nostalgic about those 14.400 bps, wow!
                    You¹re flying! times, on the contrary, but perhaps we could use now some of
                    that community spirit. Just a thought.
                    Salud!
                    --
                    Hector Landaeta.
                    Colonia Tovar - Venezuela.



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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