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Re: L-o-n-g columns! Anyone ?

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  • stronkus2003
    Is it possible to build a fractionating still without any reflux and get the same quality and output? It would be a lot easier to build and probably easier to
    Message 1 of 18 , Dec 1, 2003
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      Is it possible to build a fractionating still without any reflux and
      get the same quality and output? It would be a lot easier to build
      and probably easier to run. Or?

      Regards

      Stronk

      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "homedistiller"
      <homedistiller@y...> wrote:
      > Hi Max,
      >
      > A very interesting document is this one, here:
      > http://persephone.agcom.purdue.edu/AgCom/Pubs/AE/AE-117.html
      >
      > Check for example: Table 4
      >
      > More stages clearly reduce the need for reflux and therefore also
      the
      > energy use, the column diameter and the time needed to distill a
      > batch.
      >
      > Regards,
      >
      > Dirk
    • BOKAKOB
      You already have it. If you reduce the heat input in your boiler to the point that you don t use cooling water, then you have what you want. stronkus2003
      Message 2 of 18 , Dec 1, 2003
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        You already have it. If you reduce the heat input in your boiler to the point that you don't use cooling water, then you have what you want.

        stronkus2003 <stronkus2003@...> wrote:Is it possible to build a fractionating still without any reflux and get the same quality and output? It would be a lot easier to build and probably easier to run. Or? Regards Stronk



        I can be wrong I must say
        Cheers, Alex...



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      • stronkus2003
        Yes I realise that, I am just beeing curious that maybe it would be an easy way to go to build a column without a reflux head and use the available space to
        Message 3 of 18 , Dec 1, 2003
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          Yes I realise that, I am just beeing curious that maybe it would be
          an easy way to go to build a column without a reflux head and use the
          available space to build a taller column and get a good result. Or am
          I totally getting it wrong?

          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, BOKAKOB <bokakob@y...> wrote:
          > You already have it. If you reduce the heat input in your boiler to
          the point that you don't use cooling water, then you have what you
          want.
          >
          > stronkus2003 <stronkus2003@y...> wrote:Is it possible to build a
          fractionating still without any reflux and get the same quality and
          output? It would be a lot easier to build and probably easier to run.
          Or? Regards Stronk
          >
          >
          >
          > I can be wrong I must say
          > Cheers, Alex...
          >
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
          > Do you Yahoo!?
          > Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • homedistiller
          Stronkus, you absolutely have a right clue, but reflux is always necessary! Heightening a column creates the possibility of increasing the amount of stages.
          Message 4 of 18 , Dec 1, 2003
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            Stronkus, you absolutely have a right clue, but reflux is always
            necessary!

            Heightening a column creates the possibility of increasing the amount
            of stages.
            More stages means less reflux necessary for the same purity.
            Less reflux will result in much greater efficiency.

            Again I refer to:
            http://persephone.agcom.purdue.edu/AgCom/Pubs/AE/AE-117.html

            Check table 4

            Less reflux demands more stages, but will reward you with less energy
            consumption, smaller columns and less distilling time.

            Regards,
            Dirk






            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "stronkus2003" <stronkus2003@y...>
            wrote:
            > Yes I realise that, I am just beeing curious that maybe it would be
            > an easy way to go to build a column without a reflux head and use
            the
            > available space to build a taller column and get a good result. Or
            am
            > I totally getting it wrong?
            >
            > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, BOKAKOB <bokakob@y...> wrote:
            > > You already have it. If you reduce the heat input in your boiler
            to
            > the point that you don't use cooling water, then you have what you
            > want.
            > >
            > > stronkus2003 <stronkus2003@y...> wrote:Is it possible to build a
            > fractionating still without any reflux and get the same quality and
            > output? It would be a lot easier to build and probably easier to
            run.
            > Or? Regards Stronk
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > I can be wrong I must say
            > > Cheers, Alex...
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ---------------------------------
            > > Do you Yahoo!?
            > > Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • stronkus2003
            Hi Dirk, what I am thinking is that since most of us have a limited height to use, the primary concern when building should be to build a column head as short
            Message 5 of 18 , Dec 1, 2003
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              Hi Dirk, what I am thinking is that since most of us have a limited
              height to use, the primary concern when building should be to build a
              column head as short as ever possible to get a column as high as
              possible and that total reflux control should be secondary.

              Hm time to go home and rebuild again.....

              Regards

              Stronk

              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "homedistiller"
              <homedistiller@y...> wrote:
              > Stronkus, you absolutely have a right clue, but reflux is always
              > necessary!
              >
              > Heightening a column creates the possibility of increasing the
              amount
              > of stages.
              > More stages means less reflux necessary for the same purity.
              > Less reflux will result in much greater efficiency.
              >
              > Again I refer to:
              > http://persephone.agcom.purdue.edu/AgCom/Pubs/AE/AE-117.html
              >
              > Check table 4
              >
              > Less reflux demands more stages, but will reward you with less
              energy
              > consumption, smaller columns and less distilling time.
              >
              > Regards,
              > Dirk
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "stronkus2003"
              <stronkus2003@y...>
              > wrote:
              > > Yes I realise that, I am just beeing curious that maybe it would
              be
              > > an easy way to go to build a column without a reflux head and use
              > the
              > > available space to build a taller column and get a good result. Or
              > am
              > > I totally getting it wrong?
              > >
              > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, BOKAKOB <bokakob@y...> wrote:
              > > > You already have it. If you reduce the heat input in your boiler
              > to
              > > the point that you don't use cooling water, then you have what
              you
              > > want.
              > > >
              > > > stronkus2003 <stronkus2003@y...> wrote:Is it possible to build
              a
              > > fractionating still without any reflux and get the same quality
              and
              > > output? It would be a lot easier to build and probably easier to
              > run.
              > > Or? Regards Stronk
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > I can be wrong I must say
              > > > Cheers, Alex...
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > ---------------------------------
              > > > Do you Yahoo!?
              > > > Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
              > > >
              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • homedistiller
              Stronk, I m afraid that just a few centimeters extra won t benefit THAT much. You can also look at it like this: that relatively small hole in the
              Message 6 of 18 , Dec 1, 2003
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                Stronk,

                I'm afraid that just a few centimeters extra won't benefit THAT much.

                You can also look at it like this: that relatively small hole in the
                ceiling/floor can easily provide for a double high column and even
                provide a much better acces to the reflux and distillate collection
                area!

                Dirk



                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "stronkus2003" <stronkus2003@y...>
                wrote:
                > Hi Dirk, what I am thinking is that since most of us have a limited
                > height to use, the primary concern when building should be to build
                a
                > column head as short as ever possible to get a column as high as
                > possible and that total reflux control should be secondary.
                >
                > Hm time to go home and rebuild again.....
                >
                > Regards
                >
                > Stronk
              • stronkus2003
                I am sure You are right but another small parameter to be concerned is the relatively small but crucial hole I will obtain in my head if the wife sees a column
                Message 7 of 18 , Dec 1, 2003
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                  I am sure You are right but another small parameter to be concerned
                  is the relatively small but crucial hole I will obtain in my head if
                  the wife sees a column emerge from the cellar into the kitchen...;-)

                  Regards Stronk

                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "homedistiller"
                  <homedistiller@y...> wrote:
                  > Stronk,
                  >
                  > I'm afraid that just a few centimeters extra won't benefit THAT
                  much.
                  >
                  > You can also look at it like this: that relatively small hole in
                  the
                  > ceiling/floor can easily provide for a double high column and even
                  > provide a much better acces to the reflux and distillate collection
                  > area!
                  >
                  > Dirk
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "stronkus2003"
                  <stronkus2003@y...>
                  > wrote:
                  > > Hi Dirk, what I am thinking is that since most of us have a
                  limited
                  > > height to use, the primary concern when building should be to
                  build
                  > a
                  > > column head as short as ever possible to get a column as high as
                  > > possible and that total reflux control should be secondary.
                  > >
                  > > Hm time to go home and rebuild again.....
                  > >
                  > > Regards
                  > >
                  > > Stronk
                • homedistiller
                  (LOL) Even better! To avoid that (indeed very crucial!) small hole in your head, (you could try to) explain your wife that you will extend the column even
                  Message 8 of 18 , Dec 1, 2003
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                    (LOL) Even better!

                    To avoid that (indeed very crucial!) small hole in your head, (you
                    could try to) explain your wife that you will extend the column even
                    higher!

                    You could even let her choose the colour of the surrounding box, that
                    is absolutely necessary to insulate the column!

                    Regards,
                    Dirk


                    --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "stronkus2003" <stronkus2003@y...>
                    wrote:
                    > I am sure You are right but another small parameter to be concerned
                    > is the relatively small but crucial hole I will obtain in my head
                    if
                    > the wife sees a column emerge from the cellar into the kitchen...;-)
                    >
                    > Regards Stronk
                  • w_upnorth
                    Is it possible or reasonable to build a horizontal condenser? Say a 25mm T adapted to 50mm pipe with a condenser inside cap on the end with a small relief
                    Message 9 of 18 , Dec 1, 2003
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                      Is it possible or reasonable to build a horizontal condenser? Say a
                      25mm "T" adapted to
                      50mm pipe with a condenser inside cap on the end with a small relief
                      hole, a slight angel to flow
                      product towards needle valves for reflux and take off. Would the
                      gained height in the column be worth it?


                      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "stronkus2003" <stronkus2003@y...>
                      wrote:
                      > Hi Dirk, what I am thinking is that since most of us have a limited
                      > height to use, the primary concern when building should be to build a
                      > column head as short as ever possible to get a column as high as
                      > possible and that total reflux control should be secondary.
                      >
                      > Hm time to go home and rebuild again.....
                      >
                      > Regards
                      >
                      > Stronk
                      >
                      > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "homedistiller"
                      > <homedistiller@y...> wrote:
                      > > Stronkus, you absolutely have a right clue, but reflux is always
                      > > necessary!
                      > >
                      > > Heightening a column creates the possibility of increasing the
                      > amount
                      > > of stages.
                      > > More stages means less reflux necessary for the same purity.
                      > > Less reflux will result in much greater efficiency.
                      > >
                      > > Again I refer to:
                      > > http://persephone.agcom.purdue.edu/AgCom/Pubs/AE/AE-117.html
                      > >
                      > > Check table 4
                      > >
                      > > Less reflux demands more stages, but will reward you with less
                      > energy
                      > > consumption, smaller columns and less distilling time.
                      > >
                      > > Regards,
                      > > Dirk
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "stronkus2003"
                      > <stronkus2003@y...>
                      > > wrote:
                      > > > Yes I realise that, I am just beeing curious that maybe it would
                      > be
                      > > > an easy way to go to build a column without a reflux head and use
                      > > the
                      > > > available space to build a taller column and get a good result. Or
                      > > am
                      > > > I totally getting it wrong?
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, BOKAKOB <bokakob@y...> wrote:
                      > > > > You already have it. If you reduce the heat input in your boiler
                      > > to
                      > > > the point that you don't use cooling water, then you have what
                      > you
                      > > > want.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > stronkus2003 <stronkus2003@y...> wrote:Is it possible to build
                      > a
                      > > > fractionating still without any reflux and get the same quality
                      > and
                      > > > output? It would be a lot easier to build and probably easier to
                      > > run.
                      > > > Or? Regards Stronk
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I can be wrong I must say
                      > > > > Cheers, Alex...
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > ---------------------------------
                      > > > > Do you Yahoo!?
                      > > > > Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
                      > > > >
                      > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • abbababbaccc
                      Assuming you build a column without reflux head and have it properly insulated there s no reflux and the result is essentially the same as no column at all.
                      Message 10 of 18 , Dec 1, 2003
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                        Assuming you build a column without reflux head and have it properly
                        insulated there's no reflux and the result is essentially the same as
                        no column at all. Uninsulated column let's vapors condense on the
                        column inner surface and provides reflux that way. However, it's not
                        as efficient as having all the reflux appear at the top of the
                        packing and flow down. Top down approach utilizes all the packing for
                        re-evaporation and recondensing cycle while sidecondensing utilizes
                        only part of the packing (not to mention channeling at the column
                        surface) and somewhat disturbs the equilibrium.

                        BTW, my LM rig has 1.4 meters of packing and it works well with low
                        reflux ratios.

                        Greetz, Riku

                        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "stronkus2003" <stronkus2003@y...>
                        wrote:
                        > Yes I realise that, I am just beeing curious that maybe it would be
                        > an easy way to go to build a column without a reflux head and use
                        the
                        > available space to build a taller column and get a good result. Or
                        am
                        > I totally getting it wrong?
                        >
                        > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, BOKAKOB <bokakob@y...> wrote:
                        > > You already have it. If you reduce the heat input in your boiler
                        to
                        > the point that you don't use cooling water, then you have what you
                        > want.
                        > >
                        > > stronkus2003 <stronkus2003@y...> wrote:Is it possible to build a
                        > fractionating still without any reflux and get the same quality and
                        > output? It would be a lot easier to build and probably easier to
                        run.
                        > Or? Regards Stronk
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > I can be wrong I must say
                        > > Cheers, Alex...
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ---------------------------------
                        > > Do you Yahoo!?
                        > > Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • BOKAKOB
                        in my opinion simply put - NO w_upnorth wrote: Is it possible or reasonable to build a horizontal condenser? Say a 25mm T adapted to
                        Message 11 of 18 , Dec 1, 2003
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                          in my opinion simply put - NO

                          w_upnorth <w_upnorth@...> wrote:
                          Is it possible or reasonable to build a horizontal condenser? Say a
                          25mm "T" adapted to
                          50mm pipe with a condenser inside cap on the end with a small relief
                          hole, a slight angel to flow
                          product towards needle valves for reflux and take off. Would the
                          gained height in the column be worth it?


                          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "stronkus2003" <stronkus2003@y...>
                          wrote:
                          > Hi Dirk, what I am thinking is that since most of us have a limited
                          > height to use, the primary concern when building should be to build a
                          > column head as short as ever possible to get a column as high as
                          > possible and that total reflux control should be secondary.
                          >
                          > Hm time to go home and rebuild again.....
                          >
                          > Regards
                          >
                          > Stronk
                          >
                          > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "homedistiller"
                          > <homedistiller@y...> wrote:
                          > > Stronkus, you absolutely have a right clue, but reflux is always
                          > > necessary!
                          > >
                          > > Heightening a column creates the possibility of increasing the
                          > amount
                          > > of stages.
                          > > More stages means less reflux necessary for the same purity.
                          > > Less reflux will result in much greater efficiency.
                          > >
                          > > Again I refer to:
                          > > http://persephone.agcom.purdue.edu/AgCom/Pubs/AE/AE-117.html
                          > >
                          > > Check table 4
                          > >
                          > > Less reflux demands more stages, but will reward you with less
                          > energy
                          > > consumption, smaller columns and less distilling time.
                          > >
                          > > Regards,
                          > > Dirk
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "stronkus2003"
                          > <stronkus2003@y...>
                          > > wrote:
                          > > > Yes I realise that, I am just beeing curious that maybe it would
                          > be
                          > > > an easy way to go to build a column without a reflux head and use
                          > > the
                          > > > available space to build a taller column and get a good result. Or
                          > > am
                          > > > I totally getting it wrong?
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, BOKAKOB <bokakob@y...> wrote:
                          > > > > You already have it. If you reduce the heat input in your boiler
                          > > to
                          > > > the point that you don't use cooling water, then you have what
                          > you
                          > > > want.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > stronkus2003 <stronkus2003@y...> wrote:Is it possible to build
                          > a
                          > > > fractionating still without any reflux and get the same quality
                          > and
                          > > > output? It would be a lot easier to build and probably easier to
                          > > run.
                          > > > Or? Regards Stronk
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > I can be wrong I must say
                          > > > > Cheers, Alex...
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > ---------------------------------
                          > > > > Do you Yahoo!?
                          > > > > Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
                          > > > >
                          > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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                          I can be wrong I must say
                          Cheers, Alex...



                          ---------------------------------
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                          Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Mike Nixon
                          w_upnorth wrote: Subject: [Distillers] Re: L-o-n-g columns! Anyone ? Is it possible or reasonable to build a horizontal condenser? Say a 25mm T adapted to
                          Message 12 of 18 , Dec 1, 2003
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                            w_upnorth wrote:
                            Subject: [Distillers] Re: L-o-n-g columns! Anyone ?

                            Is it possible or reasonable to build a horizontal condenser? Say a 25mm "T"
                            adapted to 50mm pipe with a condenser inside cap on the end with a small
                            relief hole, a slight angel to flow product towards needle valves for reflux
                            and take off. Would the
                            gained height in the column be worth it?
                            =========================
                            Perfectly feasible. Just ensure that you do have that slight angle so the
                            liquid runs the way you want it to.
                            The coils used in the recent experiments with air cooling are just that, and
                            occupy far less space than an equivalent length of straight tubing.

                            Mike N
                          • nanosleep
                            It seems like a lot of trouble for not much return. Why not just distill twice? Instant doubling of the column height!!!! ... 25mm T ... for reflux ... so
                            Message 13 of 18 , Dec 1, 2003
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                              It seems like a lot of trouble for not much return.

                              Why not just distill twice? Instant doubling of the column height!!!!


                              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Nixon" <mike@s...> wrote:
                              > w_upnorth wrote:
                              > Subject: [Distillers] Re: L-o-n-g columns! Anyone ?
                              >
                              > Is it possible or reasonable to build a horizontal condenser? Say a
                              25mm "T"
                              > adapted to 50mm pipe with a condenser inside cap on the end with a small
                              > relief hole, a slight angel to flow product towards needle valves
                              for reflux
                              > and take off. Would the
                              > gained height in the column be worth it?
                              > =========================
                              > Perfectly feasible. Just ensure that you do have that slight angle
                              so the
                              > liquid runs the way you want it to.
                              > The coils used in the recent experiments with air cooling are just
                              that, and
                              > occupy far less space than an equivalent length of straight tubing.
                              >
                              > Mike N
                            • Mike Nixon
                              nanosleep wrote: Subject: [Distillers] Re: L-o-n-g columns! Anyone ? It seems like a lot of trouble for not much return. Why not just distill twice? Instant
                              Message 14 of 18 , Dec 1, 2003
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                                nanosleep wrote:
                                Subject: [Distillers] Re: L-o-n-g columns! Anyone ?

                                It seems like a lot of trouble for not much return.

                                Why not just distill twice? Instant doubling of the column height!!!!
                                =======================
                                Because it is a hobby, NS. Part of the enjoyment of a hobby, for me anyway,
                                is seeing if I can push the boundaries of our knowledge a bit further.
                                Gardeners spend years looking for the perfect rose. Sports people seek to
                                beat their own personal best records. It's fun! :-)

                                All the best,
                                Mike N
                                =======================

                                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Nixon" <mike@s...> wrote:
                                > w_upnorth wrote:
                                > Subject: [Distillers] Re: L-o-n-g columns! Anyone ?
                                >
                                > Is it possible or reasonable to build a horizontal condenser? Say a
                                25mm "T"
                                > adapted to 50mm pipe with a condenser inside cap on the end with a small
                                > relief hole, a slight angel to flow product towards needle valves
                                for reflux
                                > and take off. Would the
                                > gained height in the column be worth it?
                                > =========================
                                > Perfectly feasible. Just ensure that you do have that slight angle
                                so the
                                > liquid runs the way you want it to.
                                > The coils used in the recent experiments with air cooling are just
                                that, and
                                > occupy far less space than an equivalent length of straight tubing.
                                >
                                > Mike N


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                              • homedistiller
                                Nanosleep, It depends what one likes. I really would enjoy an entire batch being finished in one hour! I really would enjoy a small-diameter-continuous-still
                                Message 15 of 18 , Dec 2, 2003
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                                  Nanosleep,

                                  It depends what one likes.

                                  I really would enjoy an entire batch being finished in one hour!

                                  I really would enjoy a small-diameter-continuous-still of, let's say,
                                  5 or 6 meters high, nicely chugging along!

                                  Wouldn't you ?

                                  Regards,
                                  Dirk





                                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "nanosleep" <nanosleep@y...> wrote:
                                  > It seems like a lot of trouble for not much return.
                                  >
                                  > Why not just distill twice? Instant doubling of the column
                                  height!!!!
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