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grappa

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  • Tom Johnson
    hello i am new to the list , had a question about grappa , what kind of grapes are good, and what is the process , do you add water to the grape peel and stem
    Message 1 of 23 , Dec 17, 1999
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      hello i am new to the list , had a question about grappa , what kind of
      grapes are good, and what is the process , do you add water to the
      grape peel and stem before stilling and do you need to let the added
      water sit and how long?
      any other info on the subject would be great. thanks from tj
    • Ray Toms
      Tom I haven t made grappa, but it is my understanding that you make a wine and then once you have pressed off the juice you rework the lees, pips, stalks,
      Message 2 of 23 , Dec 19, 1999
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        Tom
        I haven't made grappa, but it is my understanding that you make a wine and
        then once you have pressed off the juice you rework the lees, pips, stalks,
        skins etc with sugar and water referment and distil that. I don't think type
        of grapes realy matters.
        Ray

        Tom Johnson wrote:

        > From: Tom Johnson <tjohnson@...>
        >
        > hello i am new to the list , had a question about grappa , what kind of
        > grapes are good, and what is the process , do you add water to the
        > grape peel and stem before stilling and do you need to let the added
        > water sit and how long?
        > any other info on the subject would be great. thanks from tj
        >
        >
        --
        Ray Toms Moonshine Supplies, Taupo. New Zealand.
        http://moonshine.co.nz
        Home Brewing Equipment and Suppliers.
        Specialists in all aspects of Home Distillation and Wine/Beer Making.
      • Andrew
        Ted- thanks for the tips! Since, as you said, methanol kills, let me be ... What exactly is a thumper? I come from a scientific/laboratory background to the
        Message 3 of 23 , Sep 28, 2000
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          Ted-
          thanks for the tips! Since, as you said, methanol kills, let me be
          sure I understand your terminology. You wrote:

          >Let's talk safety, methanol kills,that said, the best way to get rid
          >of the stuff is to double or tripple distill through a
          >thumper(doubler, bubbler, whatever you want to call it)filled with
          >water not tails or wash. the reason for using water is that methanol
          >is hydrophylic and has a tendancy to stay put as long as
          >thetemperature doesn't get to high. you'll want to change out the
          >water(use hot) after the first liter of heads are collected.

          What exactly is a thumper? I come from a scientific/laboratory
          background to the moonshining world, and as a result have little to
          no "sense" when it comes to practical solutions (as anyone who's
          every
          dealt with an academic is, I'm sure, familiar with). You seem to be
          describing something that the vapors percolate through? I'm not
          really set up for a big modification to my still. Is there a problem
          with simply a slow distillation and religous discarding of the first
          bit of heads?
          If I double or triple distill will I loose flavor?

          cheers-
          Andrew
        • Ted Palmer
          Yes, you have it right, the thumper as in the attached file, which is placed between the pot still on the left and the condenser on the right side,
          Message 4 of 23 , Sep 28, 2000
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            Yes, you have it right, the thumper as in the attached file, which is placed
            between the pot still on the left and the condenser on the right side,
            "re-distills" the steam. The water vapor will condence in the liquid in the
            bottom of the device thus consentrating the ethanol. Don't confuse a device
            called a 'slobber pot' that looks like a thumper on many pot stills, it is
            just an area to prevent wash(mash) from getting into the condenser.
            > If I double or triple distill will I loose flavor?
            Yes, but but not all of it. I ran a plum mash and quadrupal distilled and
            it still had plum aroma.
            If you are worried that you might lose too much flavor, save some of the
            first run and blend it with the XX or XXX runs.

            Tony Ackland, your website needs a section on thumpers don't ya think?

            _________________________
            Ted Palmer
            tpalmer@...
            brewer@...


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Andrew " <physkid@...>
            To: <Distillers@egroups.com>
            Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 10:09 AM
            Subject: [Distillers] re: grappa


            > Ted-
            > thanks for the tips! Since, as you said, methanol kills, let me be
            > sure I understand your terminology. You wrote:
            >
            > >Let's talk safety, methanol kills,that said, the best way to get rid
            > >of the stuff is to double or tripple distill through a
            > >thumper(doubler, bubbler, whatever you want to call it)filled with
            > >water not tails or wash. the reason for using water is that methanol
            > >is hydrophylic and has a tendancy to stay put as long as
            > >thetemperature doesn't get to high. you'll want to change out the
            > >water(use hot) after the first liter of heads are collected.
            >
            > What exactly is a thumper? I come from a scientific/laboratory
            > background to the moonshining world, and as a result have little to
            > no "sense" when it comes to practical solutions (as anyone who's
            > every
            > dealt with an academic is, I'm sure, familiar with). You seem to be
            > describing something that the vapors percolate through? I'm not
            > really set up for a big modification to my still. Is there a problem
            > with simply a slow distillation and religous discarding of the first
            > bit of heads?
            > If I double or triple distill will I loose flavor?
            >
            > cheers-
            > Andrew
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Ackland, Tony (CALNZAS)
            ... yeah, I know. They ve been having a few questions now, and I only have one cursory paragraph about them under Pot stills, and in the FAQ. Well, not too
            Message 5 of 23 , Sep 28, 2000
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              >Tony Ackland, your website needs a section on thumpers don't ya think?

              yeah, I know. They've been having a few questions now, and I only have one
              cursory paragraph about them under Pot stills, and in the FAQ. Well, not
              too much happening this weekend, so maybe I could do it then. While I'm at
              it, the whole "Pot Still" design bit needs a rev up. Does anyone have any
              great plans/drawings etc for making pot stills from ?

              Tony
              http://www.geocities.com/kiwi_distiller
            • Ackland, Tony (CALNZAS)
              ... Andrew, Just a slight clarification to Teds reply... its not that the methanol is hydrophylic that the thumper works. Its more that the thumper is
              Message 6 of 23 , Sep 28, 2000
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                > What exactly is a thumper?

                Andrew,

                Just a slight clarification to Teds reply... its not that the "methanol is
                hydrophylic" that the thumper works. Its more that the thumper is acting as
                a second (or third ...) distillation pot. Like have a second pot still
                in-line with the first. The methanol will no more stick to the water in
                there than what it did in the original wash. But it will be taken up until
                the water is saturated with it (as in the wash), thereby preventing some
                from coming out. But the benefit is that by effectively doing the second
                distillation in line, you're using the heat from the steam/vapour coming off
                the first pot to provide the heat to the thumper (cheap & effective - nice
                situation).

                I'll try and describe it ... main pot heats up, as it gets to the 60-70C
                mark the vapours will have a greater conc. of methanol present... these get
                passed into the thumper and try to bubble up through the water there. But
                because there's little methanol in the water there (or mash is sometimes
                used, or weak tails), it will mostly be dissolved back into the water. The
                water is cold too, so the vapour will all condense if given the chance (e.g.
                small bubbles & water deep enough). A bit later on, the pot is now up to
                the 80-90's and starting to put out a fairly good ethanol rich vapour (say
                40% purity at 96C off a 5% wash). This vapour too will be knocked down by
                the thumper ... but in doing so, the thumper water is starting to heat up..
                Thumper water gets hotter, and also increases in ethanol content. By now,
                possibly a fair chunk of the methanol has come out of the original brew in
                the pot, but now trapped in the thumper because it was cold in there ... but
                now the thumpers hotter, it will distill off out of the thumper. This time,
                because its concentration is higher (it was only held in a small amount of
                water), it will come off in a fairly concentrated burst. So the methanol
                content of the first distillate out of the thumper will be quite a bit
                higher than that collected just off a pot still. But it will be a much
                smaller volume (this is the same as reflux stills - you only have to discard
                a smaller amount of the heads, as they have been so much more effectively
                fractionated off). Hence less methanol contained in the remaining
                distillate, as Ted describes. Just to continue the story for the ethanol
                side of things ... by now the thumper is at say 84C, and the ethanol content
                is around 40% of the liquid in it - gees - that sounds like a second pot
                still doesn't it ? So the vapour coming off it will be at around 75-80% -
                hence the second distillation occurring - all for free, no additional cost
                or heating involved. Of course all this depends on how effective the
                thumper is at knocking down the incoming vapour - e.g. bubble size, depth of
                immersion etc, but you get the basic idea.

                Gees that ended up a long tale ...

                Tony
              • miciofelice2003
                Ciao a tutti. (Hi to everybody). The Italian law say that to be called grappa, a distillate MUST be made ONLY from fermented grape pomace, that are: skin,
                Message 7 of 23 , Feb 15, 2006
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                  Ciao a tutti. (Hi to everybody).

                  The Italian law say that to be called grappa, a distillate MUST be
                  made ONLY from fermented grape pomace, that are: skin, seeds, and
                  the "woody" part of the bunch (may be the part called "grape"?).

                  That ones can be soaked (sometimes) of wine and sometimes a little
                  bit more dry. Of course, more soked are, more distillate you'll get.

                  The modern trend is to avoid to use also the "woody" part, in order
                  to get less methanol to treat and a less rough taste of the
                  distillate.

                  The distillate obtained from wine, grape pomace wine (like I do),
                  lees, dregs, is not allowed to be called "grappa".

                  This is the official point of wiew of the italian law.

                  So, if you are a distillery owner and you want to make true grappa
                  you MUST follow the law. And the Government will control ALL the
                  grappa production phases with a particular branch of the police.

                  In fact on the stopper of the bottle they put a particular pink seal
                  as a demonstration that everything is O.K.

                  The italian law assume that the maximum percentage of methilic
                  alchool MUST be 1% vol.

                  The italian law allow to have for your use an alambhic having the
                  boiler of maximum 3 liters of capacity and the maximum quantity of
                  distilled is 5 liters for your own use: you are not allowed to sell
                  or to give it as a present.

                  For the rest ... what to say?

                  I hope that what I wrote is useful for you.

                  Ciao da

                  micio felice
                • miciofelice2003
                  I forgot. If you search with Google by using the key words distillerie di grappa you ll get a lot of names of italian distilleries, like Marollo, that have
                  Message 8 of 23 , Feb 15, 2006
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                    I forgot.

                    If you search with Google by using the key words "distillerie di
                    grappa" you'll get a lot of names of italian distilleries, like
                    Marollo, that have also the explanation in english language.

                    ciao a tutti

                    micio felice
                  • miciofelice2003
                    I don t want to bore you. Here attached is the link of the Italian Institute of grappa. When opened, offer you the english flag to clik on. Do it and you ll
                    Message 9 of 23 , Feb 15, 2006
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                      I don't want to bore you.
                      Here attached is the link of the Italian Institute of grappa.

                      When opened, offer you the english flag to clik on.
                      Do it and you'll get a nice introduction to grappa in english language.

                      http://www.istitutograppa.org/or4/or?uid=istitutograppa.client.index#

                      ciao a tutti

                      da

                      micio felice
                    • Brendan Keith
                      The woody part is the stem . Grape = uva -- Brendan Keith bkeith@sympatico.ca ... From: Distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Distillers@yahoogroups.com]On
                      Message 10 of 23 , Feb 15, 2006
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                        The "woody" part is the "stem".

                        Grape = uva

                        --
                        Brendan Keith
                        bkeith@...


                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Distillers@yahoogroups.com]On
                        Behalf Of miciofelice2003
                        Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 4:30 PM
                        To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [Distillers] grappa


                        Ciao a tutti. (Hi to everybody).

                        The Italian law say that to be called grappa, a distillate MUST be
                        made ONLY from fermented grape pomace, that are: skin, seeds, and
                        the "woody" part of the bunch (may be the part called "grape"?).
                      • waljaco
                        Article 1 (4)(f)(1)(a) of Regulation (ECC) No 1576/89 - the quantity of lees that may be added to grape marc may not exceed 25 kg of lees per 100 kg of grape
                        Message 11 of 23 , Feb 16, 2006
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                          Article 1 (4)(f)(1)(a) of Regulation (ECC) No 1576/89 - the quantity
                          of lees that may be added to grape marc may not exceed 25 kg of lees
                          per 100 kg of grape marc used.

                          wal
                          (Italy is in the E.U.)
                          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "miciofelice2003"
                          <miciofelice2003@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Ciao a tutti. (Hi to everybody).
                          >
                          > The Italian law say that to be called grappa, a distillate MUST be
                          > made ONLY from fermented grape pomace, that are: skin, seeds, and
                          > the "woody" part of the bunch (may be the part called "grape"?).
                          >
                          > That ones can be soaked (sometimes) of wine and sometimes a little
                          > bit more dry. Of course, more soked are, more distillate you'll get.
                          >
                          > The modern trend is to avoid to use also the "woody" part, in order
                          > to get less methanol to treat and a less rough taste of the
                          > distillate.
                          >
                          > The distillate obtained from wine, grape pomace wine (like I do),
                          > lees, dregs, is not allowed to be called "grappa".
                          >
                          > This is the official point of wiew of the italian law.
                          >
                          > So, if you are a distillery owner and you want to make true grappa
                          > you MUST follow the law. And the Government will control ALL the
                          > grappa production phases with a particular branch of the police.
                          >
                          > In fact on the stopper of the bottle they put a particular pink seal
                          > as a demonstration that everything is O.K.
                          >
                          > The italian law assume that the maximum percentage of methilic
                          > alchool MUST be 1% vol.
                          >
                          > The italian law allow to have for your use an alambhic having the
                          > boiler of maximum 3 liters of capacity and the maximum quantity of
                          > distilled is 5 liters for your own use: you are not allowed to sell
                          > or to give it as a present.
                          >
                          > For the rest ... what to say?
                          >
                          > I hope that what I wrote is useful for you.
                          >
                          > Ciao da
                          >
                          > micio felice
                          >
                        • miciofelice2003
                          Ciao a tutti. I just spoke with the secretary of Italian Institute of Grappa and he informed me that the ECC regulation 1014/90 (actually are 7 regulations,
                          Message 12 of 23 , Feb 16, 2006
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                            Ciao a tutti.

                            I just spoke with the secretary of Italian Institute of Grappa and
                            he informed me that the ECC regulation 1014/90 (actually are 7
                            regulations, but they refer generally to 1014) allow (isn't
                            compulsory) to add lees under two conditions, that are: till 25% in
                            weight AND the quantity of pure alcohol from lees must be maximum
                            35% of the total quantity of alcohol.

                            I didn't know this part of the law and I was used to think that only
                            skins and seeds (and, yers ago, also stem) have to be used to distil.

                            But I don't know how many distilleries use that mix because lees
                            contain a lot of natural yeasts, sugar to be transformed, organic
                            materials and so on. If you don't use immediately the grape pomace
                            you must to keep it into vessels or tanks having, such in this way,
                            the possibility of some "strange" and "wild" residual fermentation
                            that can contaminate lees.

                            In my opinion this mix should not be very common because
                            distilleries use a lot a particular tool called ,in
                            italian, "disalcoolatore".
                            It is an inclinated tube where grape pomace come in from the top and
                            steam flow from the bottom. At the end you collect a low-alcoohol
                            rate liquid to send to the boiler to distil.

                            The treatment of lees ask some different tools, just because lees
                            aren't solid and aren't liquid.
                            The distilleries that haven't the disalcoolatore use some particular
                            boilers to avoid to "burn" grape pomace (if so, you can
                            get "furfurolo"): the heating is given by boiling water or by low
                            pressure steam that are all around and below the boiler. Grape
                            pomace lie on a grid and boiling water of the boiler is below but
                            not in touch with that ones.
                            In another kind of boiler grape pomace are into a basket made of
                            metallic wire to avoid the contact pf grape pomace with walls and
                            bottom of boiler.

                            It is easy to do this with grape pomace because are solid; it's a
                            little bit less easy to do this with lees.


                            Anyway, this is only my interpretation.

                            Let me add that being italian, knowing grappa, being passionately
                            fond of distilling and not knowing this part of the law means
                            that ... that mix isn't very common.

                            Ciao a tutti

                            micio felice
                          • Robert Thomas
                            Hi Micio, about this disalcoolatore . You say a tube leads the pomace in, and steam flows from the bottom. Do you mean water-steam or alcohol vapour? This
                            Message 13 of 23 , Feb 16, 2006
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                              Hi Micio,
                              about this "disalcoolatore". You say a tube leads the pomace in, and
                              "steam" flows from the bottom. Do you mean water-steam or alcohol
                              vapour? This sounds like an industrial scale "steam distillation",
                              where water-steam is sent through stuff to evaporate volatile compounds
                              and deliver them to a condenser (much diluted with water from the
                              steam). It tends to be a very delicate (in terms of retaining flavour)
                              method of distilling.

                              So my questions, (that aren't already asked in the paragraph above).
                              Where do the remains go? And how, if they don't just drop into an
                              integrated vessel?
                              Is the steam generator a separate vessel?
                              How is the pomace moved (eg screw, pump, etc).
                              Cheers,
                              Rob.



                              --- miciofelice2003 <miciofelice2003@...> wrote:

                              > Ciao a tutti.
                              >
                              > I just spoke with the secretary of Italian Institute of Grappa and
                              > he informed me that the ECC regulation 1014/90 (actually are 7
                              > regulations, but they refer generally to 1014) allow (isn't
                              > compulsory) to add lees under two conditions, that are: till 25% in
                              > weight AND the quantity of pure alcohol from lees must be maximum
                              > 35% of the total quantity of alcohol.
                              >
                              > I didn't know this part of the law and I was used to think that only
                              > skins and seeds (and, yers ago, also stem) have to be used to distil.
                              >
                              > But I don't know how many distilleries use that mix because lees
                              > contain a lot of natural yeasts, sugar to be transformed, organic
                              > materials and so on. If you don't use immediately the grape pomace
                              > you must to keep it into vessels or tanks having, such in this way,
                              > the possibility of some "strange" and "wild" residual fermentation
                              > that can contaminate lees.
                              >
                              > In my opinion this mix should not be very common because
                              > distilleries use a lot a particular tool called ,in
                              > italian, "disalcoolatore".
                              > It is an inclinated tube where grape pomace come in from the top and
                              > steam flow from the bottom. At the end you collect a low-alcoohol
                              > rate liquid to send to the boiler to distil.
                              >
                              > The treatment of lees ask some different tools, just because lees
                              > aren't solid and aren't liquid.
                              > The distilleries that haven't the disalcoolatore use some particular
                              > boilers to avoid to "burn" grape pomace (if so, you can
                              > get "furfurolo"): the heating is given by boiling water or by low
                              > pressure steam that are all around and below the boiler. Grape
                              > pomace lie on a grid and boiling water of the boiler is below but
                              > not in touch with that ones.
                              > In another kind of boiler grape pomace are into a basket made of
                              > metallic wire to avoid the contact pf grape pomace with walls and
                              > bottom of boiler.
                              >
                              > It is easy to do this with grape pomace because are solid; it's a
                              > little bit less easy to do this with lees.
                              >
                              >
                              > Anyway, this is only my interpretation.
                              >
                              > Let me add that being italian, knowing grappa, being passionately
                              > fond of distilling and not knowing this part of the law means
                              > that ... that mix isn't very common.
                              >
                              > Ciao a tutti
                              >
                              > micio felice
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >


                              Cheers,
                              Rob.

                              __________________________________________________
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                            • _{*L*}_
                              Nice, I would imagine that there is a limitless possibility in organizing various governmental entities along these lines: National Whiskey Authority (NWA)
                              Message 14 of 23 , Feb 16, 2006
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                                Nice, I would imagine that there is a limitless possibility in organizing various governmental entities along these lines:

                                National Whiskey Authority (NWA)
                                Federal Bureau of Vodkas (FBV)
                                Imported Cognacs Committee (ICC)
                                Straight Bourbon Association (SBA)
                                Department of Rum (DOR)

                                ... to name just a few, whaddayathink about other possibilities, huh?


                                miciofelice2003 <miciofelice2003@...> wrote:
                                <snip> the secretary of Italian Institute of Grappa and <snip>

                                _{*L*}_
                                Pluralitas non est ponenda sine necessitate
                                http://briefcase.yahoo.com/bokakob



                                ---------------------------------
                                Relax. Yahoo! Mail virus scanning helps detect nasty viruses!

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Robert Thomas
                                Oh come now. Without these austere bodies (don t forget that either the Scots or the Irish one of them have mis-spelled their products name) we wouldn t be
                                Message 15 of 23 , Feb 16, 2006
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                                  Oh come now. Without these austere bodies (don't forget that either the
                                  Scots or the Irish one of them have mis-spelled their products name) we
                                  wouldn't be able to break the rules and make better stuff than they do!
                                  But seriously,
                                  without some kind of protection, the whole genre is dumbed down to
                                  whatever product is best sold (as an example: Budweiser; US vs. Chech.
                                  No contest, IMHO).
                                  Cheers
                                  Rob.


                                  --- _{*L*}_ <bokakob@...> wrote:

                                  > Nice, I would imagine that there is a limitless possibility in
                                  > organizing various governmental entities along these lines:
                                  >
                                  > National Whiskey Authority (NWA)
                                  > Federal Bureau of Vodkas (FBV)
                                  > Imported Cognacs Committee (ICC)
                                  > Straight Bourbon Association (SBA)
                                  > Department of Rum (DOR)
                                  >
                                  > ... to name just a few, whaddayathink about other possibilities,
                                  > huh?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > miciofelice2003 <miciofelice2003@...> wrote:
                                  > <snip> the secretary of Italian Institute of Grappa and <snip>
                                  >
                                  > _{*L*}_
                                  > Pluralitas non est ponenda sine necessitate
                                  > http://briefcase.yahoo.com/bokakob
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ---------------------------------
                                  > Relax. Yahoo! Mail virus scanning helps detect nasty viruses!
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  >


                                  Cheers,
                                  Rob.

                                  __________________________________________________
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                                  Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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                                • miciofelice2003
                                  Ciao. Yes I mean a tube like you said, but isn t a distilling column. Water steam is used, and what you get is something like a low alcoholic content )25-32
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Feb 16, 2006
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                                    Ciao.
                                    Yes I mean a tube like you said, but isn't a distilling column.
                                    Water steam is used, and what you get is something like a low
                                    alcoholic content )25-32 °C) to feed the next boiler.

                                    If you search for "frilli impianti.it" and click the english
                                    language, you will go to "impianti industriali" and then click
                                    on "wine by-products". The photo on the low right is a
                                    disalcoolatore: you can see the pile of exausted grape pomaces.
                                    Anyway this is an industrial plant and so I don't know a lot of
                                    those ones. The pomace are moved, inside the tube, by a screw.
                                    Sorry for not being able to help more.

                                    ciao

                                    micio felice



                                    --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Robert Thomas <whosbrewing@...>
                                    wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hi Micio,
                                    > about this "disalcoolatore". You say a tube leads the pomace in,
                                    and
                                    > "steam" flows from the bottom. Do you mean water-steam or alcohol
                                    > vapour? This sounds like an industrial scale "steam distillation",
                                    > where water-steam is sent through stuff to evaporate volatile
                                    compounds
                                    > and deliver them to a condenser (much diluted with water from the
                                    > steam). It tends to be a very delicate (in terms of retaining
                                    flavour)
                                    > method of distilling.
                                    >
                                    > So my questions, (that aren't already asked in the paragraph
                                    above).
                                    > Where do the remains go? And how, if they don't just drop into an
                                    > integrated vessel?
                                    > Is the steam generator a separate vessel?
                                    > How is the pomace moved (eg screw, pump, etc).
                                    > Cheers,
                                    > Rob.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- miciofelice2003 <miciofelice2003@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > Ciao a tutti.
                                    > >
                                    > > I just spoke with the secretary of Italian Institute of Grappa
                                    and
                                    > > he informed me that the ECC regulation 1014/90 (actually are 7
                                    > > regulations, but they refer generally to 1014) allow (isn't
                                    > > compulsory) to add lees under two conditions, that are: till 25%
                                    in
                                    > > weight AND the quantity of pure alcohol from lees must be
                                    maximum
                                    > > 35% of the total quantity of alcohol.
                                    > >
                                    > > I didn't know this part of the law and I was used to think that
                                    only
                                    > > skins and seeds (and, yers ago, also stem) have to be used to
                                    distil.
                                    > >
                                    > > But I don't know how many distilleries use that mix because lees
                                    > > contain a lot of natural yeasts, sugar to be transformed,
                                    organic
                                    > > materials and so on. If you don't use immediately the grape
                                    pomace
                                    > > you must to keep it into vessels or tanks having, such in this
                                    way,
                                    > > the possibility of some "strange" and "wild" residual
                                    fermentation
                                    > > that can contaminate lees.
                                    > >
                                    > > In my opinion this mix should not be very common because
                                    > > distilleries use a lot a particular tool called ,in
                                    > > italian, "disalcoolatore".
                                    > > It is an inclinated tube where grape pomace come in from the top
                                    and
                                    > > steam flow from the bottom. At the end you collect a low-
                                    alcoohol
                                    > > rate liquid to send to the boiler to distil.
                                    > >
                                    > > The treatment of lees ask some different tools, just because
                                    lees
                                    > > aren't solid and aren't liquid.
                                    > > The distilleries that haven't the disalcoolatore use some
                                    particular
                                    > > boilers to avoid to "burn" grape pomace (if so, you can
                                    > > get "furfurolo"): the heating is given by boiling water or by
                                    low
                                    > > pressure steam that are all around and below the boiler. Grape
                                    > > pomace lie on a grid and boiling water of the boiler is below
                                    but
                                    > > not in touch with that ones.
                                    > > In another kind of boiler grape pomace are into a basket made
                                    of
                                    > > metallic wire to avoid the contact pf grape pomace with walls
                                    and
                                    > > bottom of boiler.
                                    > >
                                    > > It is easy to do this with grape pomace because are solid; it's
                                    a
                                    > > little bit less easy to do this with lees.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Anyway, this is only my interpretation.
                                    > >
                                    > > Let me add that being italian, knowing grappa, being
                                    passionately
                                    > > fond of distilling and not knowing this part of the law means
                                    > > that ... that mix isn't very common.
                                    > >
                                    > > Ciao a tutti
                                    > >
                                    > > micio felice
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Cheers,
                                    > Rob.
                                    >
                                    > __________________________________________________
                                    > Do You Yahoo!?
                                    > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                    > http://mail.yahoo.com
                                    >
                                  • miciofelice2003
                                    Hi, Rob. I agree with you. At least, that Institute is a referring point for everybody want to know something without become crazy in a lot of different
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Feb 16, 2006
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Hi, Rob.
                                      I agree with you. At least, that Institute is a referring point for
                                      everybody want to know something without become crazy in a lot of
                                      different points of view.

                                      ciao

                                      micio felice







                                      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Robert Thomas <whosbrewing@...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Oh come now. Without these austere bodies (don't forget that
                                      either the
                                      > Scots or the Irish one of them have mis-spelled their products
                                      name) we
                                      > wouldn't be able to break the rules and make better stuff than
                                      they do!
                                      > But seriously,
                                      > without some kind of protection, the whole genre is dumbed down to
                                      > whatever product is best sold (as an example: Budweiser; US vs.
                                      Chech.
                                      > No contest, IMHO).
                                      > Cheers
                                      > Rob.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --- _{*L*}_ <bokakob@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > Nice, I would imagine that there is a limitless possibility in
                                      > > organizing various governmental entities along these lines:
                                      > >
                                      > > National Whiskey Authority (NWA)
                                      > > Federal Bureau of Vodkas (FBV)
                                      > > Imported Cognacs Committee (ICC)
                                      > > Straight Bourbon Association (SBA)
                                      > > Department of Rum (DOR)
                                      > >
                                      > > ... to name just a few, whaddayathink about other
                                      possibilities,
                                      > > huh?
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > miciofelice2003 <miciofelice2003@...> wrote:
                                      > > <snip> the secretary of Italian Institute of Grappa and <snip>
                                      > >
                                      > > _{*L*}_
                                      > > Pluralitas non est ponenda sine necessitate
                                      > > http://briefcase.yahoo.com/bokakob
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > ---------------------------------
                                      > > Relax. Yahoo! Mail virus scanning helps detect nasty viruses!
                                      > >
                                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Cheers,
                                      > Rob.
                                      >
                                      > __________________________________________________
                                      > Do You Yahoo!?
                                      > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                      > http://mail.yahoo.com
                                      >
                                    • waljaco
                                      Keep in mind that a grape pomace distillate is not unique to Italy - Portugal, Spain, France and Germany also produce it, although they go by different names.
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Feb 17, 2006
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Keep in mind that a grape pomace distillate is not unique to Italy -
                                        Portugal, Spain, France and Germany also produce it, although they go
                                        by different names.
                                        I gather in Italy it is not unusual to store 'vinaccia' (grape pomace)
                                        for lengthy periods until it is distilled, so the addition of wine
                                        lees would not be appropriate. But in terms of quality, both grape
                                        pomace and wine lees are by-products of wine-making with a quite low
                                        residual alcohol content.
                                        wal
                                        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "miciofelice2003"
                                        <miciofelice2003@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Hi, Rob.
                                        > I agree with you. At least, that Institute is a referring point for
                                        > everybody want to know something without become crazy in a lot of
                                        > different points of view.
                                        >
                                        > ciao
                                        >
                                        > micio felice
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Robert Thomas <whosbrewing@>
                                        > wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Oh come now. Without these austere bodies (don't forget that
                                        > either the
                                        > > Scots or the Irish one of them have mis-spelled their products
                                        > name) we
                                        > > wouldn't be able to break the rules and make better stuff than
                                        > they do!
                                        > > But seriously,
                                        > > without some kind of protection, the whole genre is dumbed down to
                                        > > whatever product is best sold (as an example: Budweiser; US vs.
                                        > Chech.
                                        > > No contest, IMHO).
                                        > > Cheers
                                        > > Rob.
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > --- _{*L*}_ <bokakob@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > > Nice, I would imagine that there is a limitless possibility in
                                        > > > organizing various governmental entities along these lines:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > National Whiskey Authority (NWA)
                                        > > > Federal Bureau of Vodkas (FBV)
                                        > > > Imported Cognacs Committee (ICC)
                                        > > > Straight Bourbon Association (SBA)
                                        > > > Department of Rum (DOR)
                                        > > >
                                        > > > ... to name just a few, whaddayathink about other
                                        > possibilities,
                                        > > > huh?
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > miciofelice2003 <miciofelice2003@> wrote:
                                        > > > <snip> the secretary of Italian Institute of Grappa and <snip>
                                        > > >
                                        > > > _{*L*}_
                                        > > > Pluralitas non est ponenda sine necessitate
                                        > > > http://briefcase.yahoo.com/bokakob
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > ---------------------------------
                                        > > > Relax. Yahoo! Mail virus scanning helps detect nasty viruses!
                                        > > >
                                        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Cheers,
                                        > > Rob.
                                        > >
                                        > > __________________________________________________
                                        > > Do You Yahoo!?
                                        > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                        > > http://mail.yahoo.com
                                        > >
                                        >
                                      • miciofelice2003
                                        Ciao Wal. Yes, you are right: a lot of people are used to distil grape pomace, but you can call it as grappa only if ... is italian. Oterwise call it marc,
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Feb 17, 2006
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Ciao Wal.
                                          Yes, you are right: a lot of people are used to distil grape pomace,
                                          but you can call it as "grappa" only if ... is italian.
                                          Oterwise call it marc, brandy, grape pomace distillate or what you
                                          want.

                                          The same happens with Cognac: there'n no difference between french
                                          cognac and spanish or italian brandy (to an uneducated taste), but
                                          you can call cognac only what is made in France following some rules.
                                          The same happens with Champagne: a lot of wine are made in the same
                                          way and taste the same (sometimes better) but you can call Champagne
                                          only what is made in that particular region of France.

                                          Anyway isn't by accident that the italian government control all the
                                          phases of grappa production giving, such in this way, a warranty to
                                          the consumer.

                                          What do you mean in this sentence " ... in term of quality, both
                                          grape pomace and wine lees are by-products of wine making with a
                                          quite low ... " ?

                                          It's a little bit too simply to affirm this. Grappa isn't only some
                                          ethilic alcohol diluted with water: you have to consider also aroma,
                                          body, smell and everything that give that particular taste.
                                          Don't you agree with this?

                                          I don't have a bad opinion of you, so, please, don't disappoint me
                                          affirming that grape pomace and lees are the same in term of quality.

                                          I can affirm that in term of distillate what you get from grape
                                          pomace isn't the same of what you get from lees.
                                          The quality is different.
                                          It's like to affirm that all the grain-whiskies qualities are the
                                          same because they are all obtained from the fermentation af
                                          grain ....

                                          I don't want to start a fight about the distillate obtained from
                                          grape pomace and lees: is matter of taste, of information,
                                          of "tongue education", ...
                                          Lees grappa is good, "sweet", soft, delicate, but isn't so full of
                                          body and aroma like grape pomace grappa.


                                          micio felice





                                          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Keep in mind that a grape pomace distillate is not unique to
                                          Italy -
                                          > Portugal, Spain, France and Germany also produce it, although they
                                          go
                                          > by different names.
                                          > I gather in Italy it is not unusual to store 'vinaccia' (grape
                                          pomace)
                                          > for lengthy periods until it is distilled, so the addition of wine
                                          > lees would not be appropriate. But in terms of quality, both grape
                                          > pomace and wine lees are by-products of wine-making with a quite
                                          low
                                          > residual alcohol content.
                                          > wal
                                          > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "miciofelice2003"
                                          > <miciofelice2003@> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > Hi, Rob.
                                          > > I agree with you. At least, that Institute is a referring point
                                          for
                                          > > everybody want to know something without become crazy in a lot
                                          of
                                          > > different points of view.
                                          > >
                                          > > ciao
                                          > >
                                          > > micio felice
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                        • Robert Thomas
                                          Hi Micio, ... or raki (only if you are in Crete, otherwise is icky aniseed stuff) ... I think there is a process difference between cognac and other brandies
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Feb 17, 2006
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Hi Micio,
                                            A few bits thrown in among your post:


                                            --- miciofelice2003 <miciofelice2003@...> wrote:

                                            > Ciao Wal.
                                            > Yes, you are right: a lot of people are used to distil grape pomace,
                                            > but you can call it as "grappa" only if ... is italian.
                                            > Oterwise call it marc, brandy, grape pomace distillate or what you
                                            > want.
                                            or raki (only if you are in Crete, otherwise is icky aniseed stuff)

                                            >
                                            > The same happens with Cognac: there'n no difference between french
                                            > cognac and spanish or italian brandy (to an uneducated taste), but
                                            > you can call cognac only what is made in France following some rules.
                                            > The same happens with Champagne: a lot of wine are made in the same
                                            > way and taste the same (sometimes better) but you can call Champagne
                                            > only what is made in that particular region of France.
                                            I think there is a process difference between cognac and other brandies
                                            (help me out here Harry - or Wal with your amazing searching!!)

                                            >
                                            > Anyway isn't by accident that the italian government control all the
                                            > phases of grappa production giving, such in this way, a warranty to
                                            > the consumer.
                                            Well, yes and no. It is partially for quality, and partially so they
                                            can get protected regional status (ie for profits/sales)

                                            >
                                            > What do you mean in this sentence " ... in term of quality, both
                                            > grape pomace and wine lees are by-products of wine making with a
                                            > quite low ... " ?
                                            actually, this is why I replied. In one of the links I posted
                                            yesterday, it was claimed that the lees product (German = hefebrand)
                                            had more grape flavour. I found that difficult to believe, which is why
                                            I posted the link (and quote, I think).
                                            Also, the pomace from red wine manufacture is fully fermented out. OK,
                                            so you have all the solids, which "dilute" the ethanol, but it is still
                                            5+% isn't it?

                                            <snip>
                                            >
                                            > I don't have a bad opinion of you, so, please, don't disappoint me
                                            > affirming that grape pomace and lees are the same in term of quality.
                                            Wal's a good bloke, even if he has too much time on his hands to find
                                            links that contradict my lies 8)

                                            <snip>

                                            > Lees grappa is good, "sweet", soft, delicate, but isn't so full of
                                            > body and aroma like grape pomace grappa.
                                            there! just the opposite of what the German's say about thiers. How
                                            odd.

                                            cheers,
                                            Rob.


                                            Cheers,
                                            Rob.

                                            __________________________________________________
                                            Do You Yahoo!?
                                            Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                            http://mail.yahoo.com
                                          • waljaco
                                            Grappa is made from the rubbish (or bagaçeira in Portuguese) of winemaking. i.e. pomace and lees. It was initially made by poor villagers and it did not
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Feb 18, 2006
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Grappa is made from the 'rubbish (or 'bagaçeira in Portuguese) of
                                              winemaking. i.e. pomace and lees. It was initially made by poor
                                              villagers and it did not have a good reputation until the professional
                                              distillers saw that they could make a euro from rubbish!
                                              wal
                                              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "miciofelice2003"
                                              <miciofelice2003@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Ciao Wal.
                                              > Yes, you are right: a lot of people are used to distil grape pomace,
                                              > but you can call it as "grappa" only if ... is italian.
                                              > Oterwise call it marc, brandy, grape pomace distillate or what you
                                              > want.
                                              >
                                              > The same happens with Cognac: there'n no difference between french
                                              > cognac and spanish or italian brandy (to an uneducated taste), but
                                              > you can call cognac only what is made in France following some rules.
                                              > The same happens with Champagne: a lot of wine are made in the same
                                              > way and taste the same (sometimes better) but you can call Champagne
                                              > only what is made in that particular region of France.
                                              >
                                              > Anyway isn't by accident that the italian government control all the
                                              > phases of grappa production giving, such in this way, a warranty to
                                              > the consumer.
                                              >
                                              > What do you mean in this sentence " ... in term of quality, both
                                              > grape pomace and wine lees are by-products of wine making with a
                                              > quite low ... " ?
                                              >
                                              > It's a little bit too simply to affirm this. Grappa isn't only some
                                              > ethilic alcohol diluted with water: you have to consider also aroma,
                                              > body, smell and everything that give that particular taste.
                                              > Don't you agree with this?
                                              >
                                              > I don't have a bad opinion of you, so, please, don't disappoint me
                                              > affirming that grape pomace an
                                              d lees are the same in term of quality.
                                              >
                                              > I can affirm that in term of distillate what you get from grape
                                              > pomace isn't the same of what you get from lees.
                                              > The quality is different.
                                              > It's like to affirm that all the grain-whiskies qualities are the
                                              > same because they are all obtained from the fermentation af
                                              > grain ....
                                              >
                                              > I don't want to start a fight about the distillate obtained from
                                              > grape pomace and lees: is matter of taste, of information,
                                              > of "tongue education", ...
                                              > Lees grappa is good, "sweet", soft, delicate, but isn't so full of
                                              > body and aroma like grape pomace grappa.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > micio felice
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@> wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > Keep in mind that a grape pomace distillate is not unique to
                                              > Italy -
                                              > > Portugal, Spain, France and Germany also produce it, although they
                                              > go
                                              > > by different names.
                                              > > I gather in Italy it is not unusual to store 'vinaccia' (grape
                                              > pomace)
                                              > > for lengthy periods until it is distilled, so the addition of wine
                                              > > lees would not be appropriate. But in terms of quality, both grape
                                              > > pomace and wine lees are by-products of wine-making with a quite
                                              > low
                                              > > residual alcohol content.
                                              > > wal
                                              > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "miciofelice2003"
                                              > > <miciofelice2003@> wrote:
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Hi, Rob.
                                              > > > I agree with you. At least, that Institute is a referring point
                                              > for
                                              > > > everybody want to know something without become crazy in a lot
                                              > of
                                              > > > different points of view.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > ciao
                                              > > >
                                              > > > micio felice
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                            • waljaco
                                              Re: cognac The type of grapes used and the type of still used (alembic Charentais) make cognac different from say armagnac. Other French wine distillates are
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Feb 18, 2006
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Re: cognac
                                                The type of grapes used and the type of still used (alembic
                                                Charentais) make cognac different from say armagnac. Other French wine
                                                distillates are called 'fine' (relying on poor memory).
                                                wal
                                                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Robert Thomas <whosbrewing@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Hi Micio,
                                                > A few bits thrown in among your post:
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > --- miciofelice2003 <miciofelice2003@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > > Ciao Wal.
                                                > > Yes, you are right: a lot of people are used to distil grape pomace,
                                                > > but you can call it as "grappa" only if ... is italian.
                                                > > Oterwise call it marc, brandy, grape pomace distillate or what you
                                                > > want.
                                                > or raki (only if you are in Crete, otherwise is icky aniseed stuff)
                                                >
                                                > >
                                                > > The same happens with Cognac: there'n no difference between french
                                                > > cognac and spanish or italian brandy (to an uneducated taste), but
                                                > > you can call cognac only what is made in France following some rules.
                                                > > The same happens with Champagne: a lot of wine are made in the same
                                                > > way and taste the same (sometimes better) but you can call Champagne
                                                > > only what is made in that particular region of France.
                                                > I think there is a process difference between cognac and other brandies
                                                > (help me out here Harry - or Wal with your amazing searching!!)
                                                >
                                                > >
                                              • miciofelice2003
                                                Ciao Wal! Really i don t know the reason to continue this conversation that, in my opinion and feeling, is becoming worse than a normal conversation. Only let
                                                Message 23 of 23 , Feb 18, 2006
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Ciao Wal!

                                                  Really i don't know the reason to continue this conversation that,
                                                  in my opinion and feeling, is becoming worse than a normal
                                                  conversation.

                                                  Only let me say that to make some money from "rubbish" (as you said)
                                                  involve capability to risk, capability to transform that "rubbish"
                                                  in something good to drink, involve some fantasy, and a lot of good
                                                  qualities.

                                                  Anyway grape pomaces aren't "rubbish": are grape pomace.

                                                  The italian law has regulations about the distillation of
                                                  this "rubbish", a lot of people like to drink the distillate of
                                                  this "rubbish", some other Country distil that "rubbish" (and they
                                                  drink the result of that "rubbish") and, if you dislike to drink, be
                                                  sure that nobody will force you to do.

                                                  I know the meaning of "bacaceira": I know that language and also
                                                  Spanish language.
                                                  For example, in Spanish language a road is called "carretera":
                                                  literally mean "place where run wagons, carriages", and so on.

                                                  But this doesn't mean that on the Spanish roads are circulating only
                                                  wagons and carriages !!!

                                                  So, please, don't use words like "rubbish" instead of grape pomace.

                                                  For the rest, yes, grappa was made initially by poor people without
                                                  looking a lot to the healty of drinkers: they didn't have a column
                                                  and the separation of head and tail was a "little" bit imprecise.

                                                  But a lot of road was done !!!

                                                  micio felice




                                                  --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > Grappa is made from the 'rubbish (or 'bagaçeira in Portuguese) of
                                                  > winemaking. i.e. pomace and lees. It was initially made by poor
                                                  > villagers and it did not have a good reputation until the
                                                  professional
                                                  > distillers saw that they could make a euro from rubbish!
                                                  > wal
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