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whimsical humor and a high ph

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  • BillyWeeble@cs.com
    In a message dated 6/19/03 4:56:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time, bokakob@yahoo.com writes:
    Message 1 of 15 , Jun 24, 2003
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      In a message dated 6/19/03 4:56:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
      bokakob@... writes:

      << Especially if you add baking soda. In my experience it sharply defined the
      point when distillation stopped. For previous debate, I add baking soda after
      the first stripping run TO THE SECOND DISTILLATION (don't get blue
      spirits...) >>

      Nothing against you, BK, but more for the continued happiness of those on
      this forum (or to prevent others from getting angry at you), I must comment
      on your above statement. To not do so would be a dereliction of duty to my
      fellow distillers.
      You have insisted that baking soda is good to add to any product to be
      distilled without warning the reader that Schwitzer's Solution can, and in many
      cases will, be a result of such folly. In the future please add a disclaimer
      that this works well for you but may ruin an entire run if not done properly.
      A wash with ph that is too high will most certainly turn blue when
      distilled and if you don't know that by now then you are either a most excellent
      distiller, a very lucky person, or ...........
      I didn't think it was funny when my distillate came out blue the first
      time (on a first run) or second time (on a second run with diluted 94% and
      filtered water) when I added baking soda to raise the ph. I did this on my own as
      an experiment a long time ago so I had nobody but myself to blame. If this
      occurred after reading your "advice" I would not find your humor to be very
      funny. Adding baking soda is one of those "fine line" things we do, not an
      important step in the process, and as such is not something to be trumpeted as the
      cure-all to what ails a final product. It might instead be known as "The Final
      Solution".
      It is very noble of you add the disclaimer "I can be wrong, I must say"
      as a tag line at the end of your posts. I would urge readers to take note of
      it. Thank you for your patience on this matter.
    • BOKAKOB
      Thank you for a polite reminder, I appreciate it. I am very surprised why I don t get the result everyone is talking about. I routinely add 4 table spoons of
      Message 2 of 15 , Jun 25, 2003
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        Thank you for a polite reminder, I appreciate it. I am very surprised why I don't get the result everyone is talking about. I routinely add 4 table spoons of baking soda to my second distillation and get good results. The spirit does not smell, the separation is extremely defined and the distillate just stops dripping when alcohol content diminishes at the end of the run. I brew only sugar and turbo washes in 19 L water bottles, distill at very low burner setting at about 1 drop per second (it is about 0.3~0.4 L/hr) and never had anything blue coming out of my still. I am very interested why this never occurs to me. Any thought on that?


        I can be wrong I must say
        Cheers, Alex...
        A


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      • peter_vcb
        i collected distillate in a 25l plastic fermenter which i was planning on redistilling. i added baking soda to it it was 25l at about 55-60% i added more than
        Message 3 of 15 , Jun 25, 2003
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          i collected distillate in a 25l plastic fermenter which i was
          planning on redistilling. i added baking soda to it it was 25l at
          about 55-60% i added more than it could dilute, i.e. it had a
          sediment of baking soda. after a day the baking soda turned a very
          slight blue colour, the distillate is still clear, there is no smell
          of ammonia

          now the container did have a wash in it previously and i rinsed it
          out twice so it may have had some traces of wash in it. the copper
          pipes i used as condensers were old dirty pipes (i planned on
          redistilling) it came out clear but did have some black specks in it
          which must have been washed out of the pipes.

          so could traces of wash turn it blue, or could traces of copper turn
          it blue?

          in saying all this i will be using it again, i have noticed the
          benefits especially after it has sat for over a month on baking soda.
          i added it to "heady vodka" and there was no smell at all after a
          month. i have seen it mentioned on commercial vodka sites and Wal
          reports most russians use it or washing soda.

          Peter




          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, BOKAKOB <bokakob@y...> wrote:
          > Thank you for a polite reminder, I appreciate it. I am very
          surprised why I don't get the result everyone is talking about. I
          routinely add 4 table spoons of baking soda to my second distillation
          and get good results. The spirit does not smell, the separation is
          extremely defined and the distillate just stops dripping when alcohol
          content diminishes at the end of the run. I brew only sugar and turbo
          washes in 19 L water bottles, distill at very low burner setting at
          about 1 drop per second (it is about 0.3~0.4 L/hr) and never had
          anything blue coming out of my still. I am very interested why this
          never occurs to me. Any thought on that?
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > I can be wrong I must say
          > Cheers, Alex...
          > A
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
          > Do you Yahoo!?
          > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
        • BOKAKOB
          To add to Peter s comment I want to say that I had sediment of undissolved baking soda only once. I try to dissolve all of what I put in my standard second
          Message 4 of 15 , Jun 25, 2003
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            To add to Peter's comment I want to say that I had sediment of undissolved baking soda only once. I try to dissolve all of what I put in my standard second distillation. I usually get a total of about 12~14L (4bottles x 3~3.5Leach) of first run distillate after I distill my four water bottles. Then I add 4 table spoons of baking soda just before redistilling the second time. I never have any problem. My still is s.s. stock pot and inverted bowl, copper tower and s.s. scrubbers.

            peter_vcb <viciousblackout@...> wrote:
            i collected distillate in a 25l plastic fermenter which i was
            planning on redistilling. i added baking soda to it it was 25l at
            about 55-60% i added more than it could dilute, i.e. it had a
            sediment of baking soda. after a day the baking soda turned a very
            slight blue colour, the distillate is still clear, there is no smell
            of ammonia

            now the container did have a wash in it previously and i rinsed it
            out twice so it may have had some traces of wash in it. the copper
            pipes i used as condensers were old dirty pipes (i planned on
            redistilling) it came out clear but did have some black specks in it 
            which must have been washed out of the pipes.

            so could traces of wash turn it blue, or could traces of copper turn
            it blue?

            in saying all this i will be using it again, i have noticed the
            benefits especially after it has sat for over a month on baking soda.
            i added it to "heady vodka" and there was no smell at all after a
            month. i have seen it mentioned on commercial vodka sites and Wal
            reports most russians use it or washing soda.

            Peter




            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, BOKAKOB <bokakob@y...> wrote:
            > Thank you for a polite reminder, I appreciate it. I am very
            surprised why I don't get the result everyone is talking about. I
            routinely add 4 table spoons of baking soda to my second distillation
            and get good results. The spirit does not smell, the separation is
            extremely defined and the distillate just stops dripping when alcohol
            content diminishes at the end of the run. I brew only sugar and turbo
            washes in 19 L water bottles, distill at very low burner setting at
            about 1 drop per second (it is about 0.3~0.4 L/hr) and never had
            anything blue coming out of my still. I am very interested why this
            never occurs to me. Any thought on that?
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > I can be wrong I must say
            > Cheers, Alex...
            > A
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------
            > Do you Yahoo!?
            > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!



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            I can be wrong I must say
            Cheers, Alex...
            A


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          • BillyWeeble@cs.com
            In a message dated 6/25/03 5:47:15 AM Pacific Daylight Time, bokakob@yahoo.com writes:
            Message 5 of 15 , Jun 28, 2003
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              In a message dated 6/25/03 5:47:15 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
              bokakob@... writes:

              << and never had anything blue coming out of my still. I am very interested
              why this never occurs to me. Any thought on that? My still is s.s. stock pot
              and inverted bowl, copper tower and s.s. scrubbers >>

              Greetings BK, In the past discussions we touched on copper toxicity and
              ammonia when the ph rises and causes the residual nitrogen in a wash to turn
              to ammonia and "leach" copper from a copper surface. You may want to take a
              good look at the inside of your column after distilling and see what condition
              it's condition is in. Because you have a low percentage of copper surface area
              in your set-up, the percentage of leachate will be proportionately lower. My
              still is copper thru and thru with copper scrubbers, thus my percentage of
              potential copper leachate rises dramatically. As to the incidence of ammonia
              originating from extra nitrogen in a high ph environment, this may be where your
              use of Turbo comes in handy. Because of the exacting standards used to
              balance all of the ingredients in the mix, (including sugar to finished ABV ratio),
              there might not be as much free nitrogen available to cause such trouble.
              Haven't you said once that you split a pack of "turbo" between two washes? That
              would reduce available nutrients in a finished wash if the wash was doubled.
              I make my own nutrient mix to use with the yeasts that are compatible with
              what flavor finished product I desire. Because of my inexact science, the
              incidence of free nitrogen is greatly increased. And because I'm sure that I'm not
              alone on this forum in owning a "do it yourself" attitude, I feel it's
              necessary to point out the possible negatives in any certain procedure.

              In a message dated 6/25/03 5:47:15 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
              bokakob@... writes:

              << The spirit does not smell, the separation is extremely defined and the
              distillate just stops dripping when alcohol content diminishes at the end of the
              run. I brew only sugar and turbo washes in 19 L water bottles, distill at very
              low burner setting at about 1 drop per second (it is about 0.3~0.4 L/hr) and
              never had anything blue coming out of my still. >>

              On any normal run (no more baking soda for me) my spirit smells of clean
              ethyl alcohol, the temp at the head first drops around 70C then I either slow
              the coolant or raise the heat to 74. x which then stays constant until the
              distillate stops and the temp drops. End of run. Cut with filtered well water
              and enjoy. Now, not every run is "normal" and I'll distill the first run again
              after cutting with filtered water if too much undesirables are in the finished
              product.


              In a message dated 6/25/03 6:33:21 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
              viciousblackout@... writes:

              << i collected distillate in a 25l plastic fermenter which i was planning on
              redistilling. i added baking soda to it it was 25l at about 55-60% i added
              more than it could dilute, i.e. it had a sediment of baking soda. after a day the
              baking soda turned a very slight blue colour, the distillate is still clear,
              there is no smell of ammonia >>

              Hey VB, You say you planned on redistilling that experiment... how'd it
              go? How did it taste before redistilling? I felt that a more neutral ph
              vodka would be smoother but by golly I haven't tried just adding an alkaline
              directly to the vodka itself. Is this what Wal was speaking of when he mentioned
              other distilleries doing that?
              ----------------------------------------------

              Bottom line --- I'm out to make the best tasting booze man has ever laid
              tongue on. I could go off on some dumass tangent and try to figure out all
              the variables pertaining to Schwitzers Solution and the cause and effect of
              nitrogen, ph, ammonia, copper, non-copper, ad nauseum... but that is not the goal
              of my distilling quest. I want the pope to switch from his holy water to mine.

              Good luck to all of you who experiment with baking soda in your wash,
              etc. and may someone else carry this torch when their distillate goes gonzo on
              them. I'll be happy to continue this thread in the meantime but after that,
              it's someone else's turn (now c'mon, come clean when it happens to you!). And
              many thanks to everyone for all the sharing of links, recipes, knowledge and
              boo-boos. This has to be the greatest era the world has ever experienced.
            • peter_vcb
              Hi Billy it is still sitting on the baking soda. i didnt have enough room to fit it in my still this run. i never tasted it since i made no cuts but the smell
              Message 6 of 15 , Jun 30, 2003
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                Hi Billy
                it is still sitting on the baking soda. i didnt have enough room to
                fit it in my still this run. i never tasted it since i made no cuts
                but the smell has almost gone from it, it stank upon distillation. i
                am doing some experiments with high % heads to try and turn the ethyl
                acetate into ethanol. i added about 3 teaspoons of naoh/sodium
                hydroxide/lye to about 3 litres of heads i also added 3tsps of baking
                soda, after 1 day it has turned a dark brown colour like a dark ale
                and the smell is almost gone. i will have to neutralise it or boil it
                in the glass jar it is in as the lye will attack my s/s boiler. Wal
                was speaking of homedistillers in russia who treat it inbetween runs
                not at the end. i have considered adding a small amount to drinking
                vodka, worth trying with a shot or 2, may stop heartburn!

                Peter


                > In a message dated 6/25/03 6:33:21 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
                > viciousblackout@y... writes:
                >
                > << i collected distillate in a 25l plastic fermenter which i was
                planning on
                > redistilling. i added baking soda to it it was 25l at about 55-60%
                i added
                > more than it could dilute, i.e. it had a sediment of baking soda.
                after a day the
                > baking soda turned a very slight blue colour, the distillate is
                still clear,
                > there is no smell of ammonia >>
                >
                > Hey VB, You say you planned on redistilling that
                experiment... how'd it
                > go? How did it taste before redistilling? I felt that a more
                neutral ph
                > vodka would be smoother but by golly I haven't tried just adding an
                alkaline
                > directly to the vodka itself. Is this what Wal was speaking of
                when he mentioned
                > other distilleries doing that?
                > ----------------------------------------------
              • Hector A. Landaeta C.
                ... I¹m profoundly intrigued by this practice. I realize I¹m a bit limited because I¹ve never used sugar for a wash batch (in brewing we dread using
                Message 7 of 15 , Jun 30, 2003
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                  Re: [Distillers] whimsical humor and a high ph On 25/6/03 8:46 AM, "BOKAKOB" <bokakob@...> wrote:

                  I routinely add 4 table spoons of baking soda to my second distillation and get good results...

                  I’m profoundly intrigued by this practice.  I realize I’m a bit limited because I’ve never used sugar for a wash batch (in brewing we dread using sucrose for anything.  Fermenting sucrose gives the worst fermentation by-products possible!).  I suppose this is a sugar brewing thing but could someone explain to me what’s it use?  Do you reduce congener production by raising the wash’s pH?  Is Billy Weeble’s “Schwitzer's Solution” produced by some reaction with cooper from the columns? When I started homebrewing some years ago I remember reading about a peroxide and vinegar solution we used to take out the lead from bronze fittings.  Typically the solution turned blue after a while (and the bronze surfaces brightly golden).  Is this blue distillate a similar reaction?
                  I remember a recent posting of someone new to the hobby who asked about materials for still-making, and also recall Tony’s message about SS being cheaper than copper but more expensive to weld.  So you found it’s like that in NZ also Tony?  I was beginning to think there was a weird price distortion hereabouts.  What I like about SS is that, OK it costs more to piece together but I’ll leave a still my grand-children can use (if they will, of course), and my distillate doesn’t acquire strange colors.
                  I’m in the process of negotiating a German batch still (Christian Carl) right now.  Regrettably it’s for a third party, but I’m learning a lot of interesting things about high end stills in the process which I’ll let you know in a further message.
                  Gracias amigos.
                  --
                  Hector Landaeta.
                  Colonia Tovar - Venezuela.
                • avisorropos
                  Fermenting sucrose gives the worst fermentation by-products possible!). i find this hard to believe. based on what evidence can u make this clame. ...
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jun 30, 2003
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                    Fermenting sucrose gives the worst fermentation by-products
                    possible!). i find this hard to believe. based on what evidence
                    can u make this clame.

                    > > I routinely add 4 table spoons of baking soda to my second
                    distillation and
                    > > get good results...
                    >
                    > I¹m profoundly intrigued by this practice. I realize I¹m a bit
                    limited
                    > because I¹ve never used sugar for a wash batch (in brewing we
                    dread using
                    > sucrose for anything. Fermenting sucrose gives the worst
                    fermentation
                    > by-products possible!). I suppose this is a sugar brewing thing
                    but could
                    > someone explain to me what¹s it use? Do you reduce congener
                    production by
                    > raising the wash¹s pH? Is Billy Weeble¹s ³Schwitzer's Solution²
                    produced by
                    > some reaction with cooper from the columns? When I started
                    homebrewing some
                    > years ago I remember reading about a peroxide and vinegar solution
                    we used
                    > to take out the lead from bronze fittings. Typically the solution
                    turned
                    > blue after a while (and the bronze surfaces brightly golden). Is
                    this blue
                    > distillate a similar reaction?
                    > I remember a recent posting of someone new to the hobby who asked
                    about
                    > materials for still-making, and also recall Tony¹s message about
                    SS being
                    > cheaper than copper but more expensive to weld. So you found it¹s
                    like that
                    > in NZ also Tony? I was beginning to think there was a weird price
                    > distortion hereabouts. What I like about SS is that, OK it costs
                    more to
                    > piece together but I¹ll leave a still my grand-children can use
                    (if they
                    > will, of course), and my distillate doesn¹t acquire strange colors.
                    > I¹m in the process of negotiating a German batch still (Christian
                    Carl)
                    > right now. Regrettably it¹s for a third party, but I¹m learning a
                    lot of
                    > interesting things about high end stills in the process which I¹ll
                    let you
                    > know in a further message.
                    > Gracias amigos.
                    > --
                    > Hector Landaeta.
                    > Colonia Tovar - Venezuela.
                  • Mike Nixon
                    Re: [Distillers] whimsical humor and a high phHector A. Landaeta C. wrote: Subject: Re: [Distillers] whimsical humor and a high ph Is Billy Weeble s
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jun 30, 2003
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                      Re: [Distillers] whimsical humor and a high ph
                      Hector A. Landaeta C. wrote:
                      Subject: Re: [Distillers] whimsical humor and a high ph

                       Is Billy Weeble’s “Schwitzer's Solution” produced by some reaction with cooper from the columns?
                      ============================
                      Schweitzer's reagent is cuprammonium hydroxide, and is formed when copper hydroxide dissolves in a dilute ammonia solution). It is a deep blue colour, and is particularly known for its ability to dissolve cotton.  The chemist who first discovered this property was Eduard Mathias Schweizer (1818 -1860), so it seems that it should really be called Schweizer's reagent. 
                      It forms in stills when ammonia released from alkaline washes (nitrogen source may be plant material or yeasts) reacts with copper hydroxide formed by the action of steam on copper oxides coating the inside of copper columns or components.  It may be avoided by ensuring that the liquid in the boiler is slightly acid (pH less than 7).
                       
                      Mike N
                       
                    • mwmccaw
                      Actually, for the first distillation from a nitrogen-containing wash (which means all turbos and any recipes which use yeast nutrients, DAP, etc.), the pH
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jun 30, 2003
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                        Actually, for the first distillation from a nitrogen-containing wash
                        (which means all turbos and any recipes which use yeast nutrients,
                        DAP, etc.), the pH ought to be down around 3 or 4. Amines are quite
                        weak bases, which means that you need a fair amount of acidity to
                        force them to remain in the (harmless)ionic salt state.
                        I readily agree that there should be no amines in the condensate
                        (assuming no splashover), so adding some baking soda prior to the
                        second distillation SHOULD be no problem. However, anything can
                        happen, as Murphy's son likes to point out....
                        Mike McCaw

                        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Nixon" <mike@s...> wrote:
                        > Re: [Distillers] whimsical humor and a high phHector A. Landaeta
                        C. wrote:
                        > Subject: Re: [Distillers] whimsical humor and a high ph
                        >
                        > Is Billy Weeble's "Schwitzer's Solution" produced by some
                        reaction with cooper from the columns?
                        > ============================
                        > Schweitzer's reagent is cuprammonium hydroxide, and is formed when
                        copper hydroxide dissolves in a dilute ammonia solution). It is a
                        deep blue colour, and is particularly known for its ability to
                        dissolve cotton. The chemist who first discovered this property was
                        Eduard Mathias Schweizer (1818 -1860), so it seems that it should
                        really be called Schweizer's reagent.
                        > It forms in stills when ammonia released from alkaline washes
                        (nitrogen source may be plant material or yeasts) reacts with copper
                        hydroxide formed by the action of steam on copper oxides coating the
                        inside of copper columns or components. It may be avoided by
                        ensuring that the liquid in the boiler is slightly acid (pH less
                        than 7).
                        >
                        > Mike N
                      • BOKAKOB
                        Thank you The Great One, I finally got your blessing.... mwmccaw wrote: Actually, for the first distillation from a nitrogen-containing
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jun 30, 2003
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                          Thank you The Great One, I finally got your blessing....

                          mwmccaw <mwmccaw@...> wrote:

                          Actually, for the first distillation from a nitrogen-containing wash
                          (which means all turbos and any recipes which use yeast nutrients,
                          DAP, etc.), the pH ought to be down around 3 or 4.  Amines are quite
                          weak bases, which means that you need a fair amount of acidity to
                          force them to remain in the (harmless)ionic salt state.
                          I readily agree that there should be no amines in the condensate
                          (assuming no splashover), so adding some baking soda prior to the
                          second distillation SHOULD be no problem.  However, anything can
                          happen, as Murphy's son likes to point out....
                          Mike McCaw

                          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Nixon" <mike@s...> wrote:
                          > Re: [Distillers] whimsical humor and a high phHector A. Landaeta
                          C. wrote:
                          > Subject: Re: [Distillers] whimsical humor and a high ph
                          >
                          >  Is Billy Weeble's "Schwitzer's Solution" produced by some
                          reaction with cooper from the columns?
                          > ============================
                          > Schweitzer's reagent is cuprammonium hydroxide, and is formed when
                          copper hydroxide dissolves in a dilute ammonia solution). It is a
                          deep blue colour, and is particularly known for its ability to
                          dissolve cotton.  The chemist who first discovered this property was
                          Eduard Mathias Schweizer (1818 -1860), so it seems that it should
                          really be called Schweizer's reagent. 
                          > It forms in stills when ammonia released from alkaline washes
                          (nitrogen source may be plant material or yeasts) reacts with copper
                          hydroxide formed by the action of steam on copper oxides coating the
                          inside of copper columns or components.  It may be avoided by
                          ensuring that the liquid in the boiler is slightly acid (pH less
                          than 7).
                          >
                          > Mike N



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                          I can be wrong I must say
                          Cheers, Alex...
                          A


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                        • Hector A. Landaeta C.
                          ... Very interesting, thanks Mike. Your knowledge in this subjects is not less than encyclopedic. I wonder why this German manufacturers swear so much on
                          Message 12 of 15 , Jul 1 1:37 PM
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                            Cooper and it's use in high-end stills On 30/6/03 5:43 PM, "Mike Nixon" <mike@...> wrote:

                            ...Schweizer's reagent.  
                            It forms in stills when ammonia released from alkaline washes (nitrogen source may be plant material or yeasts) reacts with copper hydroxide formed by the action of steam on copper oxides coating the inside of copper columns or components.  It may be avoided by ensuring that the liquid in the boiler is slightly acid (pH less than 7).

                             
                            Very interesting, thanks Mike.  Your knowledge in this subjects is not less than encyclopedic.  I wonder why this German manufacturers swear so much on copper for their material of choice for still making.  In a material they sent me says verbatim:

                            Pot stills are traditionally made of copper for numerous practical purposes: copper adsorbs volatile sulfur containing
                            compounds which are produced during fermentation and the presence of which is undesirable in the distilled spirit; copper is an excellent heat conductor that helps prevent burning of the mash; copper prevents the production of ethylcarbamat which is a toxic substance formed from cyanides (cyanides are found in high concentrations in pitted fruits); copper also improves the quality of the final product, if the quality of the mash is not microbiologically perfect; and, copper —and some distillers might even argue a particular shape of the copper— improves the aroma of the final product.

                            In fact, they sell as a 2.000+ euro option a “catalytic converter/EC adsorber” which I understand is a SS container filled with your famous copper structured packing.

                            I’m planning a new SS still in which I would use your structured copper one as packing.  How much does it cost?  Which is it’s HETP?
                            Gracias y salud.
                            --
                            Hector Landaeta.
                            Colonia Tovar - Venezuela.
                          • Hector A. Landaeta C.
                            ... I¹ll try to keep it simple so if something doesn¹t ring a bell please let me know. I was once told by a wise professor that when you dominate thoroughly
                            Message 13 of 15 , Jul 1 7:04 PM
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                              Re: [Distillers] Re: whimsical humor and a high ph On 30/6/03 5:07 PM, "avisorropos" <avisorropos@...> wrote:

                              Fermenting sucrose gives the worst fermentation by-products
                              possible!). i find this hard to believe.  based on what evidence
                              can u make this clame.

                              I’ll try to keep it simple so if something doesn’t ring a bell please let me know.  I was once told by a wise professor that when you dominate thoroughly a theme you can explain it in so many simple words.  So perhaps I will be advertising lacks both in knowledge and depth with this but I’ll try my best.

                              Yeast, as simple a living organism as it is, has some complex nutritional needs, certainly more than just sucrose.  However there’s a wide variety of yeast strains who’s needs differ widely. Alcohol producing strains fall always under the Saccharomyces family, and they, and their metabolic needs and environment adaptation pathways have been the subject of much study.  There are “usual” metabolic mechanisms for the fermentation of grape juice, beer wort, et all, by specific members of the Saccharomyces family (e.g. bayanus or capensis in wine, cerevisae and carlsbergensis / uvarum in beer).  All of those mechanisms require the presence of their specific sugar and nutrient carrying mediums (grape or apple juice, malt wort, etc.) because their specific yeasts are perfectly adapted to this environments.  There’s no such thing as an alcohol producing yeast strain that can thrive in such a nutrient deprived medium as a sugar (sucrose) wash.  Saccharomyces family strains are all adapted to nutrient rich environments as those cited before, but being that there’s no other organism in earth that adapts and mutates as readily and fast as yeast (that’s a fact, and it’s why yeast is the natural “guinea pig” in cellular death studies that are being advanced right now in the hope of learning to fight cancer), it always finds a way to survive as long as some type of nourishment can be found.  This “ways” almost certainly imply a certain loss in the edible qualities of the fermented product because the chemical compounds generated by starving and abused yeasts usually form azeotropic bonds with the ethanol molecule, which is the product you concentrate when you distill an alcohol carrying substance.  This compounds are mainly fusel alcohols, esters like amyl and ethyl acetate;  diacetyl, acetaldehyde and sulfur compounds like ethyl mercaptin and dimethyl sulfide and disulfide, just to mention the beer (my specialty) pertinent, but universal in this scenario, by-products.

                              I understand that the much popular with the subscribers of this list “turbo” yeast products are no more than specially packaged Saccharomyces strains that include the bare necessities (in nutritional terms) that yeast will need to barely ferment just one sucrose based batch.  That’s why you guys find the notion of re-pitching your yeast so alien.  I believe turbos are a very good thing for the yeast industry and truly they deserved a break.  But I find they could try to strike a more consumer wise equilibrium on pricing (IMO they’re obscenely expensive).  However there’s a notion that I believe would make this group improve exponentially their distilled products (and that I haven’t read about in any post so far) and it’s that whatever you can do to enhance your wash’s quality as a fermented product brings by itself a better spirit.  I’m no fanatic on this.  I don’t drink my molasses wines, for instance (though my whiskey’s beers are just as good as the product I sell commercially, sans the hops, of course).  It’s just little things you need to do to avoid the basic problems, like always boiling and quickly cooling the wash, aerating the cooled wash prior to inoculation, keeping the fermentation temp below 23 deg. centigrade, and the original sugar concentration below 17-19º Brix (1.070-1.079 s.g.), and of course, work sanitarily.  That’s all.

                              I can get as deep into the “science” of the abused yeast phenomena as you like.  I can write about the “shock amino acid excretion” effect or the valine-diacetyl balance or the Erlich pathway and the sugar metabolism biosynthetic mechanism.  Just let me know and I can write to you privately because I doubt the group would be interested.  I hope this would be evidence enough for you.
                              Salud compañeros!
                              --
                              Hector Landaeta.
                              Colonia Tovar - Venezuela.
                            • waljaco
                              Useful to know more as the polish-vodka site claims that sugar produces no fusels! Vodka is also made in continuos stills using sugar beet molasses, so maybe
                              Message 14 of 15 , Jul 1 7:39 PM
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                                Useful to know more as the polish-vodka site claims that sugar
                                produces no fusels! Vodka is also made in continuos stills using
                                sugar beet molasses, so maybe they are referring to this source.
                                Wal

                                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Hector A. Landaeta C."
                                <coloniera@c...> wrote:
                                > On 30/6/03 5:07 PM, "avisorropos" <avisorropos@n...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Fermenting sucrose gives the worst fermentation by-products
                                > > possible!). i find this hard to believe. based on what evidence
                                > > can u make this clame.
                                > >
                                > I¹ll try to keep it simple so if something doesn¹t ring a bell
                                please let me
                                > know. I was once told by a wise professor that when you dominate
                                thoroughly
                                > a theme you can explain it in so many simple words. So perhaps I
                                will be
                                > advertising lacks both in knowledge and depth with this but I¹ll
                                try my
                                > best.
                                >
                                > Yeast, as simple a living organism as it is, has some complex
                                nutritional
                                > needs, certainly more than just sucrose. However there¹s a wide
                                variety of
                                > yeast strains who¹s needs differ widely. Alcohol producing strains
                                fall
                                > always under the Saccharomyces family, and they, and their
                                metabolic needs
                                > and environment adaptation pathways have been the subject of much
                                study.
                                > There are ³usual² metabolic mechanisms for the fermentation of
                                grape juice,
                                > beer wort, et all, by specific members of the Saccharomyces family
                                (e.g.
                                > bayanus or capensis in wine, cerevisae and carlsbergensis / uvarum
                                in beer).
                                > All of those mechanisms require the presence of their specific
                                sugar and
                                > nutrient carrying mediums (grape or apple juice, malt wort, etc.)
                                because
                                > their specific yeasts are perfectly adapted to this environments.
                                There¹s
                                > no such thing as an alcohol producing yeast strain that can thrive
                                in such a
                                > nutrient deprived medium as a sugar (sucrose) wash. Saccharomyces
                                family
                                > strains are all adapted to nutrient rich environments as those
                                cited before,
                                > but being that there¹s no other organism in earth that adapts and
                                mutates as
                                > readily and fast as yeast (that¹s a fact, and it¹s why yeast is the
                                natural
                                > ³guinea pig² in cellular death studies that are being advanced
                                right now in
                                > the hope of learning to fight cancer), it always finds a way to
                                survive as
                                > long as some type of nourishment can be found. This ³ways² almost
                                certainly
                                > imply a certain loss in the edible qualities of the fermented
                                product
                                > because the chemical compounds generated by starving and abused
                                yeasts
                                > usually form azeotropic bonds with the ethanol molecule, which is
                                the
                                > product you concentrate when you distill an alcohol carrying
                                substance.
                                > This compounds are mainly fusel alcohols, esters like amyl and ethyl
                                > acetate; diacetyl, acetaldehyde and sulfur compounds like ethyl
                                mercaptin
                                > and dimethyl sulfide and disulfide, just to mention the beer (my
                                specialty)
                                > pertinent, but universal in this scenario, by-products.
                                >
                                > I understand that the much popular with the subscribers of this
                                list ³turbo²
                                > yeast products are no more than specially packaged Saccharomyces
                                strains
                                > that include the bare necessities (in nutritional terms) that yeast
                                will
                                > need to barely ferment just one sucrose based batch. That¹s why
                                you guys
                                > find the notion of re-pitching your yeast so alien. I believe
                                turbos are a
                                > very good thing for the yeast industry and truly they deserved a
                                break. But
                                > I find they could try to strike a more consumer wise equilibrium on
                                pricing
                                > (IMO they¹re obscenely expensive). However there¹s a notion that I
                                believe
                                > would make this group improve exponentially their distilled
                                products (and
                                > that I haven¹t read about in any post so far) and it¹s that
                                whatever you can
                                > do to enhance your wash¹s quality as a fermented product brings by
                                itself a
                                > better spirit. I¹m no fanatic on this. I don¹t drink my molasses
                                wines,
                                > for instance (though my whiskey¹s beers are just as good as the
                                product I
                                > sell commercially, sans the hops, of course). It¹s just little
                                things you
                                > need to do to avoid the basic problems, like always boiling and
                                quickly
                                > cooling the wash, aerating the cooled wash prior to inoculation,
                                keeping the
                                > fermentation temp below 23 deg. centigrade, and the original sugar
                                > concentration below 17-19º Brix (1.070-1.079 s.g.), and of course,
                                work
                                > sanitarily. That¹s all.
                                >
                                > I can get as deep into the ³science² of the abused yeast phenomena
                                as you
                                > like. I can write about the ³shock amino acid excretion² effect or
                                the
                                > valine-diacetyl balance or the Erlich pathway and the sugar
                                metabolism
                                > biosynthetic mechanism. Just let me know and I can write to you
                                privately
                                > because I doubt the group would be interested. I hope this would be
                                > evidence enough for you.
                                > Salud compañeros!
                                > --
                                > Hector Landaeta.
                                > Colonia Tovar - Venezuela.
                              • Mike Nixon
                                Cooper and it s use in high-end stillsHector A. Landaeta C. wrote: Subject: [Distillers] Cooper and it s use in high-end stills re...Schweizer s reagent. Very
                                Message 15 of 15 , Jul 1 10:53 PM
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Cooper and it's use in high-end stills
                                  Hector A. Landaeta C. wrote:
                                  Subject: [Distillers] Cooper and it's use in high-end stills
                                  re...Schweizer's reagent. 

                                  Very interesting, thanks Mike.  Your knowledge in this subjects is not less than encyclopedic.  I wonder why this German manufacturers swear so much on copper for their material of choice for still making. 
                                  ======================
                                  Dunno about 'encyclopaedic'.  Just been around a bit longer than some :-)
                                  I think the German manufacturers prefer copper for the same reasons as the Scots do for their whisky stills.  It does seem to have a very pronounced effect if you switch from copper to stainless steel.  One distillery apparently tried replacing their old copper still with a shiny new modern stainless one, and the results were reported to be horrible.
                                  Mike N
                                   
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