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copper heating elements!

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  • mwmccaw
    there IS a significant safety issue with tinned copper heating elements. Not copper in the wash, but pinhole corrosion through the copper sheath, leading to a
    Message 1 of 29 , Jun 1, 2003
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      there IS a significant safety issue with tinned copper heating
      elements. Not copper in the wash, but pinhole corrosion through the
      copper sheath, leading to a dead short circuit, which could lead to
      runaway heating of the wash, an electrically "hot" boiler, and of
      course, a blown fuse or breaker.

      Most water heater-type elements are available in an incoloy or
      niconel sheathed version. These will NOT corrode in any wash we
      might use and will literally last forever.

      I HIGHLY recommend these elements. Yes, they are a few dollars
      more, but well worth it.

      Mike McCaw




      --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "nanosleep" <nanosleep@y...>
      wrote:
      > Same thing here. My elements are now copper looking.
      > If I leave a wash sitting in the boiler very long
      > the elements get shiny again. I'm sure some of the
      > copper is being dissolved into the wash. I'm not
      > too worried since the copper contamination can't
      > get into my distillate. I typically leave the spent
      > wash in the boiler overnight. I don't like picking
      > up and pouring out the boiling hot wash. It's much
      > safer to handle when cooled. If my elements get
      > totally dissolved I'll just spend another $8 for
      > each and get a new set!
      >
      > -A
      >
      > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Ackland, Tony (CALNZAS)"
      > <Tony.Ackland@c...> wrote:
      > > I too have had wash left in the boiler overnight & had it turn
      > black. The element has now lost its tin ? coating and looks a nice
      > shiney copper. Not a trick I'll try and repeat.
      > >
      > > Tony
    • Johan
      In Sweden stainless steel elements got the same price as copper, how is it in other parts of the world? Johan ... Från: mwmccaw [mailto:mwmccaw@yahoo.com]
      Message 2 of 29 , Jun 1, 2003
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        In Sweden stainless steel elements got the same price as copper, how is it
        in other parts of the world?

        Johan

        -----Ursprungligt meddelande-----
        Från: mwmccaw [mailto:mwmccaw@...]
        Skickat: den 1 juni 2003 19:55
        Till: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
        Ämne: [Distillers] copper heating elements!

        there IS a significant safety issue with tinned copper heating
        elements. Not copper in the wash, but pinhole corrosion through the
        copper sheath, leading to a dead short circuit, which could lead to
        runaway heating of the wash, an electrically "hot" boiler, and of
        course, a blown fuse or breaker.

        Most water heater-type elements are available in an incoloy or
        niconel sheathed version. These will NOT corrode in any wash we
        might use and will literally last forever.

        I HIGHLY recommend these elements. Yes, they are a few dollars
        more, but well worth it.

        Mike McCaw




        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "nanosleep" <nanosleep@y...>
        wrote:
        > Same thing here. My elements are now copper looking.
        > If I leave a wash sitting in the boiler very long
        > the elements get shiny again. I'm sure some of the
        > copper is being dissolved into the wash. I'm not
        > too worried since the copper contamination can't
        > get into my distillate. I typically leave the spent
        > wash in the boiler overnight. I don't like picking
        > up and pouring out the boiling hot wash. It's much
        > safer to handle when cooled. If my elements get
        > totally dissolved I'll just spend another $8 for
        > each and get a new set!
        >
        > -A
        >
        > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Ackland, Tony (CALNZAS)"
        > <Tony.Ackland@c...> wrote:
        > > I too have had wash left in the boiler overnight & had it turn
        > black. The element has now lost its tin ? coating and looks a nice
        > shiney copper. Not a trick I'll try and repeat.
        > >
        > > Tony



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      • Ackland, Tony (CALNZAS)
        ... Yep ! Gives a nice bang too when it happens. Guess why I m such a strong advocate for using RCD s whenever theres a combination of electricity and liquid
        Message 3 of 29 , Jun 1, 2003
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          > there IS a significant safety issue with tinned copper heating
          > elements. Not copper in the wash, but pinhole corrosion through the
          > copper sheath, leading to a dead short circuit, which could lead to
          > runaway heating of the wash, an electrically "hot" boiler, and of
          > course, a blown fuse or breaker.

          Yep ! Gives a nice bang too when it happens. Guess why I'm such a strong advocate for using RCD's whenever theres a combination of electricity and liquid about.

          Tony
        • Martin
          Tony, Please explain what you mean by an RCD . Martin
          Message 4 of 29 , Jun 1, 2003
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            Tony,
             
            Please explain what you mean by an "RCD".
             
            Martin
          • Allan Goldsmith
            Agree with you Tony. I got the whole workshop bathrooms kitchen etc covered by RCDs on the switchboard at very little extra cost compared with the usual
            Message 5 of 29 , Jun 1, 2003
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              Agree with you Tony.
              I got the whole workshop bathrooms kitchen etc covered by RCDs on the switchboard at very little extra cost compared with the usual circuit breakers. I believe that in at least some parts of Aus RCDs are code. Wake up NZ!
              cheers
              Allan
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 11:49 AM
              Subject: RE: [Distillers] copper heating elements!

              > there IS a significant safety issue with tinned copper heating
              > elements.  Not copper in the wash, but pinhole corrosion through the
              > copper sheath, leading to a dead short circuit, which could lead to
              > runaway heating of the wash, an electrically "hot" boiler, and of
              > course, a blown fuse or breaker.

              Yep !  Gives a nice bang too when it happens.  Guess why I'm such a strong advocate for using RCD's whenever theres a combination of electricity and liquid about.

              Tony


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            • Allan Goldsmith
              RCDs are residual current devices. they trip when the difference in current going through neutral is not equal to the current on phase.(therefore going through
              Message 6 of 29 , Jun 1, 2003
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                RCDs are residual current devices. they trip when the difference in current going through neutral is not equal to the current on phase.(therefore going through your body..eeek)
                usually trip at 30 -70 mA in a few microseconds so your heart doesn't stop.
                Used in Aus for the first time I believe in the ABBA concert which was held in Sydney in the pouring rain. May be wrong here.
                cheers
                Allan
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Martin
                Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 12:13 PM
                Subject: Re: [Distillers] copper heating elements!

                Tony,
                 
                Please explain what you mean by an "RCD".
                 
                Martin


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              • Martin
                Is this RCD the same device that I know as an Earth Leakage Unit ?
                Message 7 of 29 , Jun 1, 2003
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                  Is this RCD the same device that I know as an "Earth Leakage Unit"?
                • Allan Goldsmith
                  yep Allan ... From: Martin To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 12:35 PM Subject: Re: [Distillers] copper heating elements! Is this RCD
                  Message 8 of 29 , Jun 1, 2003
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                    yep
                    Allan
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Martin
                    Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 12:35 PM
                    Subject: Re: [Distillers] copper heating elements!

                    Is this RCD the same device that I know as an "Earth Leakage Unit"?


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                    FAQ and other information at http://homedistiller.org


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                  • Harley Daschund
                    RCD/...is that like a GFCI (USA) ?...wouldnt run my stills on anything else...: ) ... _________________________________________________________________ Protect
                    Message 9 of 29 , Jun 1, 2003
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                      RCD/...is that like a GFCI (USA) ?...wouldnt run my stills on anything
                      else...:>)


                      >From: "Ackland, Tony (CALNZAS)" <Tony.Ackland@...>
                      >Reply-To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                      >To: <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                      >Subject: RE: [Distillers] copper heating elements!
                      >Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 11:49:31 +1200
                      >
                      > > there IS a significant safety issue with tinned copper heating
                      > > elements. Not copper in the wash, but pinhole corrosion through the
                      > > copper sheath, leading to a dead short circuit, which could lead to
                      > > runaway heating of the wash, an electrically "hot" boiler, and of
                      > > course, a blown fuse or breaker.
                      >
                      >Yep ! Gives a nice bang too when it happens. Guess why I'm such a strong
                      >advocate for using RCD's whenever theres a combination of electricity and
                      >liquid about.
                      >
                      >Tony

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                    • Aaron Pelly
                      i think your name is the correct one martin. the device does indeed detect earth leakage. ... From: Martin [mailto:martinmarburger@shaw.ca] Sent: 02 June 2003
                      Message 10 of 29 , Jun 1, 2003
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                        i think your name is the correct one martin. the device does indeed detect earth leakage.
                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Martin [mailto:martinmarburger@...]
                        Sent: 02 June 2003 12:36
                        To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [Distillers] copper heating elements!

                        Is this RCD the same device that I know as an "Earth Leakage Unit"?
                      • BOKAKOB
                        Mike, thank you for explanations. I wonder what is the column working primary downward? and how it is working? Thsnks in advance, Alex... mwmccaw
                        Message 11 of 29 , Jun 2, 2003
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                          Mike, thank you for explanations. I wonder what is the column working primary downward? and how it is working? Thsnks in advance, Alex...

                          mwmccaw <mwmccaw@...> wrote:
                          Now a pair of continuous columns, one operating primarily upwards, and one operating primarily downwards, in series could theoretically separate the ethanol and heads from everything else, then separate
                          the heads from the ethanol.
                          Mike McCaw


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                        • mwmccaw
                          And in the US, they re knows as a Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter device. MM ... Unit ? ... distillers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ... Service.
                          Message 12 of 29 , Jun 2, 2003
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                            And in the US, they're knows as a "Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter"
                            device.
                            MM

                            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Allan Goldsmith"
                            <goldsmith@w...> wrote:
                            > yep
                            > Allan
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: Martin
                            > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 12:35 PM
                            > Subject: Re: [Distillers] copper heating elements!
                            >
                            >
                            > Is this RCD the same device that I know as an "Earth Leakage
                            Unit"?
                            >
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                            > ADVERTISEMENT
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                            >
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                            Service.
                          • mwmccaw
                            Sorry, Alex - What I was describing was the path that the ethanol follows in the two serial columns. In the first column, heated by steam from below, the wash
                            Message 13 of 29 , Jun 2, 2003
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                              Sorry, Alex -
                              What I was describing was the path that the ethanol follows in the
                              two serial columns.
                              In the first column, heated by steam from below, the wash enters in
                              the middle, and water and tails go out the bottom and ethanol and
                              heads go out the top.
                              The ethanol and heads now go to a second column, heated by ethanol
                              vapor from below, and if it is long enough and well enough
                              controlled, the heads exit the top and the ethanol (azeotrope,
                              actually, of course)exits the bottom.
                              MM

                              --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, BOKAKOB <bokakob@y...> wrote:
                              > Mike, thank you for explanations. I wonder what is the column
                              working primary downward? and how it is working? Thsnks in advance,
                              Alex...
                              >
                              > mwmccaw <mwmccaw@y...> wrote:Now a pair of continuous columns, one
                              operating primarily upwards, and one operating primarily downwards,
                              in series could theoretically separate the ethanol and heads from
                              everything else, then separate
                              > the heads from the ethanol.
                              > Mike McCaw
                              >
                              >
                              > ---------------------------------
                              > Do you Yahoo!?
                              > Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).
                            • Robert Lougee
                              Also known as a GFI or Ground Fault Interrupt in the USA. Particularly usefull in the bathroom or kitchen. If an appliance plugged into the GFI falls in the
                              Message 14 of 29 , Jun 2, 2003
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                                Also known as a GFI or Ground Fault Interrupt in the USA. Particularly
                                usefull in the bathroom or kitchen. If an appliance plugged into the
                                GFI falls in the water, it trips to stop current flow and avoid
                                electrocution.

                                "If it pours, drink it."
                                Robert

                                --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Allan Goldsmith" <goldsmith@w...>
                                wrote:
                                > yep
                                > Allan
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: Martin
                                > To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 12:35 PM
                                > Subject: Re: [Distillers] copper heating elements!
                                >
                                >
                                > Is this RCD the same device that I know as an "Earth Leakage
                                Unit"?
                                >
                                > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                > ADVERTISEMENT
                                >
                                >
                                >
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                                unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                                >
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                                Service.
                              • Ken Grady
                                As someone from Oz has already stated they are called earth leakage switches here & are compulsory to be installed in all new homes for the the last 10 years.
                                Message 15 of 29 , Jun 2, 2003
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                                  As someone from Oz has already stated they are called earth leakage switches  here & are compulsory to be installed in all new homes for the the last 10 years.
                                   
                                  Ken.
                                   
                                   
                                  Also known as a GFI or Ground Fault Interrupt in the USA. Particularly
                                  usefull in the bathroom or kitchen. If an appliance plugged into the
                                  GFI falls in the water, it trips to stop current flow and avoid
                                  electrocution.

                                  "If it pours, drink it."
                                  Robert

                                • rodmacd2000
                                  I assume an RCD is the same thing we in N. America would call a GFD (Ground Fault Detector)? I question the need for such a device in the case when your boiler
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Jun 3, 2003
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                                    I assume an RCD is the same thing we in N. America would call a GFD
                                    (Ground Fault Detector)?

                                    I question the need for such a device in the case when your boiler is
                                    a properly grounded vessel such as a correctly wired hot water heater.

                                    --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Allan Goldsmith" <goldsmith@w...>
                                    wrote:
                                    > RCDs are residual current devices. they trip when the difference in
                                    current going through neutral is not equal to the current on phase.
                                    (therefore going through your body..eeek)
                                    > usually trip at 30 -70 mA in a few microseconds so your heart
                                    doesn't stop.
                                    > Used in Aus for the first time I believe in the ABBA concert which
                                    was held in Sydney in the pouring rain. May be wrong here.
                                    > cheers
                                    > Allan
                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > From: Martin
                                    > To: distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 12:13 PM
                                    > Subject: Re: [Distillers] copper heating elements!
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Tony,
                                    >
                                    > Please explain what you mean by an "RCD".
                                    >
                                    > Martin
                                    >
                                    > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                    >
                                    >
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                                    > FAQ and other information at http://homedistiller.org
                                    >
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                                    Service.
                                  • Ackland, Tony (CALNZAS)
                                    ... Yes ... Incase of accidents - eg the element shorting out, or wires fraying or getting crimped in something (like a door), or liquid spills out over the
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Jun 3, 2003
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                                      > I assume an RCD is the same thing we in N. America would call a GFD
                                      > (Ground Fault Detector)?

                                      Yes

                                      > I question the need for such a device in the case when your boiler is
                                      > a properly grounded vessel such as a correctly wired hot water heater.

                                      Incase of accidents - eg the element shorting out, or wires fraying or getting crimped in something (like a door), or liquid spills out over the wiring somehow ... I'm sure you can dream up a scenario. At work, we have mandated that all power points (plug-in and permanent) are to have RCD protection, just for the backup safety they offer. And there have been enough close calls to have made it a wise call. Note that they dont prevent you from getting an electric shock, but hopefully reduce its severity & duration so that it is no longer as dangerous.

                                      For me at home its important because my boiler is portable, and not grounded.

                                      Tony
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