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Saving power

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  • Allan Goldsmith
    Hi Guys (haven t heard any females on this list serve yet...pity) Just a few thoughts. In New Zealand we are currently being asked by the government to save
    Message 1 of 9 , May 31, 2003
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      Hi Guys (haven't heard any females on this list serve yet...pity)
      Just a few thoughts.
      In New Zealand we are currently being asked by the government to save 10% on our usual power consumption.
      Well heres a few calculations I did.
      My 50 litre still has 2 X 1500w elements to start it off.
      When in equilibrium I switch to one element and use my power controller.
      the element is 36 ohms
      the voltage is 70v (using the controller)
      so I am now running my still on 136 watts. about 2 light bulbs worth!
      To achieve this I have also lagged the still and the tower with foam.
      Head temperature is 71.2oC and purity 95% at 600ml per hour.
      cheers
      Allan
       
    • Mike Nixon
      Allan Goldsmith wrote: Subject: [Distillers] Saving power Hi Guys (haven t heard any females on this list serve yet...pity) You haven t been paying attention
      Message 2 of 9 , May 31, 2003
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        Allan Goldsmith wrote:
        Subject: [Distillers] Saving power

        Hi Guys (haven't heard any females on this list serve yet...pity)
        You haven't been paying attention Allan.  There are many Ladies out there who are not only delightfully female but keen distillers as well.  They are simply not as uncouth and noisy as us hairy brutes!
        Just a few thoughts.
        In New Zealand we are currently being asked by the government to save 10% on our usual power consumption.
        Well heres a few calculations I did.
        My 50 litre still has 2 X 1500w elements to start it off.
        When in equilibrium I switch to one element and use my power controller.
        the element is 36 ohms
        the voltage is 70v (using the controller)
        so I am now running my still on 136 watts. about 2 light bulbs worth!
        To achieve this I have also lagged the still and the tower with foam.
        Head temperature is 71.2oC and purity 95% at 600ml per hour.
        cheers
        Allan
        You Ratbag!!!!!!!!!   I shall dob you in to the Greens immediately!
        Have you not seen and heard the Public Announcement on telly and radio exhorting us all to turn off the illuminated clocks on our microwaves as they consume a horrendous amount of power?  Every milliamp counts!!!!!  A quick calculation will show that if every inhabitant of this Fair Land (including the sheep) turned off their power-gobbling microwave clocks then our hydro lakes would be at least one micron deeper!
        Be Public Spirited!   Drink in the dark!!!
         
        Mike N
         
      • Johan
        136W and you get 600 ml per hour, that s a refluxratio lower than 1. 600 ml, you mean 600 ml 95 %? How high is your column? And what diameter does it have?
        Message 3 of 9 , Jun 1 2:11 AM
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          136W and you get 600 ml per hour, that’s a refluxratio lower than 1.

           

          600 ml, you mean 600 ml 95 %?

          How high is your column?

          And what diameter does it have?

          What packing do you use?

          How is the quality of the spirits you get?

          Do you have to use activated carbon to get it pure?

          How strong alcohol do you distil?

           

          Something got to be wrong, you ought to loose 136W in heat loss alone or we use far too much power in our stills

           

          Johan

           

           

          Hi Guys (haven't heard any females on this list serve yet...pity)

          Just a few thoughts.

          In New Zealand we are currently being asked by the government to save 10% on our usual power consumption.

          Well heres a few calculations I did.

          My 50 litre still has 2 X 1500w elements to start it off.

          When in equilibrium I switch to one element and use my power controller.

          the element is 36 ohms

          the voltage is 70v (using the controller)

          so I am now running my still on 136 watts. about 2 light bulbs worth!

          To achieve this I have also lagged the still and the tower with foam.

          Head temperature is 71.2oC and purity 95% at 600ml per hour.

          cheers

          Allan

           



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        • rodmacd2000
          Can t help feeling there must be something wrong with your calculations. Given the known physical constants involved a back-of-the-envelope calculation tells
          Message 4 of 9 , Jun 1 10:41 AM
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            Can't help feeling there must be something wrong with your
            calculations.

            Given the known physical constants involved a back-of-the-envelope
            calculation tells us that under ideal conditions (i.e. perfect
            insulation) it requires 0.216 watts of power to produce 1.0 ml/hour
            of Azeotrope.

            So your 136 watts is capable of producing 630 ml/hour of reflux. Fine
            but to get a 95% pure output you must be run under a reasonably high
            reflux ratio (typically 10:1) and therefore your actual product
            output will be something like 70 ml/hour.

            On the other hand if your numbers are correct you've discovered a new
            principle of distillation which should be worth many millions if you
            patent it before some other member of this forum!

            --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Allan Goldsmith" <goldsmith@w...>
            wrote:
            > Hi Guys (haven't heard any females on this list serve yet...pity)
            > Just a few thoughts.
            > In New Zealand we are currently being asked by the government to
            save 10% on our usual power consumption.
            > Well heres a few calculations I did.
            > My 50 litre still has 2 X 1500w elements to start it off.
            > When in equilibrium I switch to one element and use my power
            controller.
            > the element is 36 ohms
            > the voltage is 70v (using the controller)
            > so I am now running my still on 136 watts. about 2 light bulbs
            worth!
            > To achieve this I have also lagged the still and the tower with
            foam.
            > Head temperature is 71.2oC and purity 95% at 600ml per hour.
            > cheers
            > Allan
          • BOKAKOB
            what happens if it is just ideal conditions and there is no need for reflux? if vapors travel up the column and achieve refinement without reflux, why is it
            Message 5 of 9 , Jun 1 10:47 AM
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              what happens if it is just ideal conditions and there is no need for reflux? if vapors travel up the column and achieve refinement without reflux, why is it impossible?

              rodmacd2000 <rmacdoug@...> wrote:
              ... (snip) but to get a 95% pure output you must be run under a reasonably high
              reflux ratio (typically 10:1) and therefore your actual product
              output will be something like 70 ml/hour.


              I can be wrong I must say
              Cheers, Alex...
              A


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            • Johan
              Let’s say that we have no reflux, then vapours travels through the column and nothing happens. If we have little reflux: In the still the reflux meets warmer
              Message 6 of 9 , Jun 1 12:28 PM
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                Let’s say that we have no reflux, then vapours travels through the column and nothing happens.

                 

                If we have little reflux:

                In the still the reflux meets warmer vapour from the lower part of the column, this makes the reflux boil and is leaving a stronger alcohol content in the vapour that travels upwards and meets more reflux. But if we have little reflux, the alcohol content will decrease quickly in the reflux so the alcohol in the vapour won’t be much stronger since the reflux wont be strong.

                 

                If we have plenty of reflux, every theoretical bottom in the still will act close to a pot still since the percentage in the reflux wont decrease much.

                 

                But lowering the power will maybe increase the efficiency of the packing and that will give you more theoretical bottoms in the still that compensates for lower relux ratio. The question is how much better the packing performs. Still another reason to test different power input in a short still.

                 

                It’s actually not that tricky to calculate the approximate alcohol content on every bottom in the still, at least if the still have physical bottoms, but if we approximate a theoretical bottom with scrubbers to 10 cm then it should be the same procedure with packing as with physical bottoms.

                                                                                                         

                If I got some part wrong, please correct me.

                 

                Johan

                 

                 

                 

                -----Ursprungligt meddelande-----
                Från: BOKAKOB [m
                ailto:bokakob@...]
                Skickat: den 1 juni 2003 19:47
                Till: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                Ämne: Re: [Distillers] Re: Saving power

                 

                what happens if it is just ideal conditions and there is no need for reflux? if vapors travel up the column and achieve refinement without reflux, why is it impossible?

                rodmacd2000 <rmacdoug@...> wrote:

                ... (snip) but to get a 95% pure output you must be run under a reasonably high
                reflux ratio (typically 10:1) and therefore your actual product
                output will be something like 70 ml/hour.

                 

                I can be wrong I must say
                Cheers, Alex...

                A


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                Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).

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              • Johan
                Let’s say that we have no reflux, then vapours travels through the column and nothing happens. If we have little reflux: In the still the reflux meets warmer
                Message 7 of 9 , Jun 1 12:28 PM
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                  Let’s say that we have no reflux, then vapours travels through the column and nothing happens.

                   

                  If we have little reflux:

                  In the still the reflux meets warmer vapour from the lower part of the column, this makes the reflux boil and is leaving a stronger alcohol content in the vapour that travels upwards and meets more reflux. But if we have little reflux, the alcohol content will decrease quickly in the reflux so the alcohol in the vapour won’t be much stronger.

                   

                  If we have plenty of reflux, every theoretical bottom in the still will act close to a pot still since the percentage in the reflux wont decrease much.

                   

                  But lowering the power will maybe increase the efficiency of the packing and that will give you more theoretical bottoms in the still that compensates for lower relux ratio. The question is how much better the packing performs. Still another reason to test different power input in a short still.

                   

                  It’s actually not that tricky to calculate the approximate alcohol content on every bottom in the still, at least if the still have physical bottoms, but if we approximate a theoretical bottom with scrubbers to 10 cm then

                   

                  Johan

                   

                   

                   

                  -----Ursprungligt meddelande-----
                  Från: BOKAKOB [mailto:
                  bokakob@...]
                  Skickat: den 1 juni 2003 19:47
                  Till: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
                  Ämne: Re: [Distillers] Re: Saving power

                   

                  what happens if it is just ideal conditions and there is no need for reflux? if vapors travel up the column and achieve refinement without reflux, why is it impossible?

                  rodmacd2000 <rmacdoug@...> wrote:

                  ... (snip) but to get a 95% pure output you must be run under a reasonably high
                  reflux ratio (typically 10:1) and therefore your actual product
                  output will be something like 70 ml/hour.

                   

                  I can be wrong I must say
                  Cheers, Alex...

                  A


                  Do you Yahoo!?
                  Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).

                  To unsubscribe from this group send a blank email to   distillers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  Distillers list archives : http://archive.nnytech.net/
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                • rodmacd2000
                  Ideal conditions refers to the assumption that the boiler and column are so well insulated that there is no heat loss from them. This doesn t negate the
                  Message 8 of 9 , Jun 2 8:53 AM
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                    "Ideal conditions" refers to the assumption that the boiler and
                    column are so well insulated that there is no heat loss from them.
                    This doesn't negate the necessity for a packed column and a large
                    percentage of distillate (reflux) being returned to filter down thru
                    the packing.

                    If this is not done then the still simply operates as a pot skill (no
                    matter how well insulated) and therefore cannot attain a purity even
                    approaching 95-96%

                    --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, BOKAKOB <bokakob@y...> wrote:
                    > what happens if it is just ideal conditions and there is no need
                    for reflux? if vapors travel up the column and achieve refinement
                    without reflux, why is it impossible?
                    >
                    > rodmacd2000 <rmacdoug@s...> wrote:... (snip) but to get a 95% pure
                    output you must be run under a reasonably high
                    > reflux ratio (typically 10:1) and therefore your actual product
                    > output will be something like 70 ml/hour.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > I can be wrong I must say
                    > Cheers, Alex...
                    > A
                    >
                    >
                    > ---------------------------------
                    > Do you Yahoo!?
                    > Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).
                  • BOKAKOB
                    I agree with that. However, if the temperature gradient ends at the top of the packed column and does not extend in the condenser area (imagine a cristmass
                    Message 9 of 9 , Jun 2 10:04 AM
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                      I agree with that. However, if the temperature gradient ends at the top of the packed column and does not extend in the condenser area (imagine a cristmass tree diagram of heat input, ending at the top of the column), the reflux is happening below the take-off point. In this case it is possible to adjust power, so only distillate fractions which boil above the take-off point condense and get removed. The output will depend on the ability of the packed column below to reflux/return the vapor/liquid mixture. It means that a narrow column will provide much less output compared with the wide column. I personally had a case when adjusting heat of the burner I was able to stop distillate dripping when temperature rose above 79-80 degrees. It just stopped. When I increased the heat level the temperature creaped up and distillate started to condense again but with additives of tails.

                      rodmacd2000 <rmacdoug@...> wrote:

                      "Ideal conditions" refers to the assumption that the boiler and column are so well insulated that there is no heat loss from them. This doesn't negate the necessity for a packed column and a large percentage of distillate (reflux) being returned to filter down thru the packing. If this is not done then the still simply operates as a pot skill (no matter how well insulated) and therefore cannot attain a purity even approaching 95-96%



                      I can be wrong I must say
                      Cheers, Alex...
                      A


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