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Re: [Digital BW] book

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  • eappert
    Yes thank you Richard Brooklyn I was not aware of this option. I agree being able to soft proof the grey profiles that Image print offers is a considerable
    Message 1 of 12 , Jun 1, 2007
      Yes thank you Richard Brooklyn I was not aware of this option. I
      agree being able to soft proof the grey profiles that Image print
      offers is a considerable advantage.
      My experience has taught me that you either rely on our eyes or you
      rely on the numbers, there are no other options. Ideally we should
      be able to rely on our eyes, but there are so many obstacles between
      what we see on the screen and the proof we produce from the file
      data .

      At one point, (perhaps this is the "dark ages" that Amadou refers
      to), I attempted to follow and understand the chain of cryptic
      algorithms that compress the data through the work flow to the final
      print, only to discover that the vast majority of them are so
      surreptitious that it is almost inconceivable to draw a direct
      correlation between data and density unless you unplug the color
      management system and fly the plane yourself.

      Recently I have dedicated time and energy to correlating data and
      density in order to master this relationship. So far my best results
      are achieved by returning to the stone age techniques of drawing
      direct correlations between L* values as they are displayed in the
      greyscale workspace and densities as they are measured by a
      densitometer. For example everyone knows that L*50 should produce
      18% reflective density but it never does. For me this is an
      interesting question , why doesn't it? If I print a monochrome patch
      of L*50 from a greyscale space which will be converted to a custom
      profile via relative rendering I should produce 18% grey. But I
      don't, I never do. The problem is compounded when I try to maintain
      the precise resonance of shadow tones that I perceive on the screen
      between say, L*4 and L*2 ( both of which are fictitious values that
      niether the printer nor the monitor can reproduce) but which BPC and
      what ever other linearization algorithms might transpose between the
      file data and the printer profile conversion.

      So, here's the thing, After trying to learn how to fly the Boeing 747
      using auto pilot, I am now interested in finding out how to fly a
      spit-fire manually and I am wondering if anyone has any idea about
      reference material that could help me.

      Eugene Appert
    • CorrPro96@aol.com
      My guess is that it is a lost cause. Problem is, there is no constant since you change the paper, even if you use the same brand. I use my eyes and tweak for
      Message 2 of 12 , Jun 1, 2007
        My guess is that it is a lost cause. Problem is, there is no constant since you change the paper, even if you use the same brand. I use my eyes and tweak for what seems to me a better print. Then the next week I might change my mind and tweak a little differently. It's all very subjective and all the objective measurements, numbers and so forth don't work for me. My eye is still in the darkroom over the fixer tray, guessing what the dry-down will give. So far, my CRT is telling me the truth in Photoshop, so using IP with PTAPP is working. Having said that, I'm running 2 4000's with NK 7 in 1 and split tone piezo

        in the other. I just added some warm light black to the NK 7. All this to pull a print from a particular image.


        Richard (Brooklyn)



        So, here's the thing, After trying to learn how to fly the Boeing 747
        sing auto pilot, I am now interested in finding out how to fly a
        pit-fire manually and I am wondering if anyone has any idea about
        eference material that could help me.
        Eugene Appert




        -----Original Message-----
        From: eappert <appert@...>
        To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 3:05 am
        Subject: Re: [Digital BW] book



        Yes thank you Richard Brooklyn I was not aware of this option. I
        gree being able to soft proof the grey profiles that Image print
        ffers is a considerable advantage.
        y experience has taught me that you either rely on our eyes or you
        ely on the numbers, there are no other options. Ideally we should
        e able to rely on our eyes, but there are so many obstacles between
        hat we see on the screen and the proof we produce from the file
        ata .
        At one point, (perhaps this is the "dark ages" that Amadou refers
        o), I attempted to follow and understand the chain of cryptic
        lgorithms that compress the data through the work flow to the final
        rint, only to discover that the vast majority of them are so
        urreptitious that it is almost inconceivable to draw a direct
        orrelation between data and density unless you unplug the color
        anagement system and fly the plane yourself.
        Recently I have dedicated time and energy to correlating data and
        ensity in order to master this relationship. So far my best results
        re achieved by returning to the stone age techniques of drawing
        irect correlations between L* values as they are displayed in the
        reyscale workspace and densities as they are measured by a
        ensitometer. For example everyone knows that L*50 should produce
        8% reflective density but it never does. For me this is an
        nteresting question , why doesn't it? If I print a monochrome patch
        f L*50 from a greyscale space which will be converted to a custom
        rofile via relative rendering I should produce 18% grey. But I
        on't, I never do. The problem is compounded when I try to maintain
        he precise resonance of shadow tones that I perceive on the screen
        etween say, L*4 and L*2 ( both of which are fictitious values that
        iether the printer nor the monitor can reproduce) but which BPC and
        hat ever other linearization algorithms might transpose between the
        ile data and the printer profile conversion.
        So, here's the thing, After trying to learn how to fly the Boeing 747
        sing auto pilot, I am now interested in finding out how to fly a
        pit-fire manually and I am wondering if anyone has any idea about
        eference material that could help me.
        Eugene Appert






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      • Clayton Jones
        Hello Eugene, ... I appreciate your remarks. You have found a nice way to sum up the experience that many have had and I like the flying metaphors. I ve been
        Message 3 of 12 , Jun 1, 2007
          Hello Eugene,

          >My experience has taught me that you either rely on our eyes or you
          >rely on the numbers...
          >...unplug the color management system and fly the plane yourself.
          >...After trying to learn how to fly the Boeing 747 using auto pilot,
          >I am now interested in finding out how to fly a spit-fire manually...

          I appreciate your remarks. You have found a nice way to sum up the
          experience that many have had and I like the flying metaphors. I've
          been at this over 5 years now. In the beginning I tried doing things
          as many recommended in this forum and became frustrated to the point
          of dispair and considered quitting. Then I discovered the simple
          stick-and-rudder-center-the-ball approach using the Black Only
          technique and made that my home base for several years, all the while
          learning and trying various new things that came along, looking for
          the holy grail.

          I'm currently using a 2400 with K3/ABW and am still happy with the
          stick and rudder non color managed approach. I use a custom dot gain
          curve for grayscale image profiles which provides decent WYSIWYG and
          find I can work very efficiently. Like you, all my darkroom instincts
          have transferred over and I very much enjoy working this way.

          Not everyone has the temperament and/or inclination for the high tech
          approach, and for someone doing their own work for their own purposes
          it's a great way to fly. My workflow is outlined in detail in article
          #9 at the link below. Thanks for the nice post.


          Regards,
          Clayton


          Info on black and white digital printing at
          http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
        • eappert
          BINGO! Thank you very much Clayton for the reference! Regards Eugene
          Message 4 of 12 , Jun 1, 2007
            BINGO!

            Thank you very much Clayton for the reference!

            Regards
            Eugene
          • Craig Snyder
            Right on, Clayton! Stick and rudder. I have a high-understanding of technology as a former IT Admin person for several major publishing companies, but when it
            Message 5 of 12 , Jun 5, 2007
              Right on, Clayton!

              Stick and rudder.

              I have a high-understanding of technology as a former IT Admin person
              for several major publishing companies, but when it comes to
              print-making I like the seat of the pants approach best.

              Afterall, why as a traditional photographer in the 70s and 80s do I have
              all these 35mm negs and contact sheets but no prints. Because that was
              about as much time as I could stand in the darkroom. I wanted to be
              outside, shooting, not bending over trays of chemicals in the dark for
              unknown hours. Neither do I today want to be messing with a bunch more
              things like various pieces of software, hardware, etc. Like you, I
              prefer to go from A to B, rather than pass through the alphabet to get
              to the end.

              Stick and rudder is a very appealing descriptive approach. I too,
              watched this forum and followed the comments and techniques of its
              users, and mostly two people the most, which is you, Clayton Jones, and
              Paul Roark. You phrase clicked with me. All this time I've been bogged
              down processing the information on how to get good prints from this
              forum. Now I realize, you perspective is really my perspective too.

              I've got modern technolgy at hand (1280, R220), and I'm still not making
              prints. I'm in the middle of writing several books so I really don't
              cherish lost hours at the computer trouching up negs and making prints,
              which lack consistancy.

              That's one thing about stick rudder I must add, and that is: it must
              work, be consistant, in order to be valid.

              By example, I was doing BO prints of one neg the other week for a
              charity event. I got one print finally to my liking. Then my G4/1280
              started choking on the print, only printing the top 15% of the image.
              Didn't matter if the print size was 11x17 or 5x7, it choked in the same
              exact spot on the image. I did some voodoo, and I also reinstalled new
              print drivers. That wasn't smart, the new R220 print driver messed up my
              1280 print driver and ALL settings. I reinstalled the 1280 driver. I
              finally saw my old presets and I finally got it to print the whole
              image. But now, get this, the tone, contrast and even hue changed on
              this BO print!? It was unusuable and nothing like the first print out of
              the machine. I cleaned heads, etc. but didn't seem to help. A real
              mystery. It meant starting over. Well, I dropped the novel idea of a
              quick print for some friends and went back to writing my book.

              One day I'll get back to it, and one day, when there's money, I'll get a
              2400 and just see how much easier my life might become.

              Simplicity is best. Technology is what got us here today, but who's the
              master? Is it technology--or us?

              thanks,
              Craig

              --
              Craig B. Snyder
              Writer and Photographer, www.thecraigsnyder.com
              <http://www.thecraigsnyder.com/>
              A Secret History of the Ollie www.theolliebook.com
              <http://theolliebook.com/>

              --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones"
              wrote:>> Hello Eugene,> I'm currently using a 2400 with K3/ABW and am
              still happy with the> stick and rudder non color managed approach.


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • CDTobie@aol.com
              ... I always say sheet and tiller arm as there are a lot more sailers in this world than pilots... C. David Tobie Product Technology Manager ColorVision
              Message 6 of 12 , Jun 5, 2007
                In a message dated 6/5/07 11:02:15 AM, forum@... writes:


                > Stick and rudder is a very appealing descriptive approach.
                >

                I always say "sheet and tiller arm" as there are a lot more sailers in this
                world than pilots... <G>

                C. David Tobie
                Product Technology Manager
                ColorVision Business Unit
                Datacolor Inc.
                CDTobie@...
                www.colorvision.com


                **************************************
                See what's free at
                http://www.aol.com


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • djon43
                Craig, it s worth remembering that this is a printmaking Group: some participants are much more interested in the technology than the images. It s worth
                Message 7 of 12 , Jun 5, 2007
                  Craig, it's worth remembering that this is a printmaking Group: some
                  participants are much more interested in the technology than the images.

                  It's worth remembering that "stick and rudder" landed us on the moon,
                  each of us has more computer power on our desktops than those guys had.

                  As well, back in wet darkroom days, the color craftsmen serving top
                  commercial photographer and art director clients relied upon their
                  eyes, only using technology to monitor chemistry/emulsions and when
                  forced to knock off cheap prints without tests. Video color analyzers
                  were never necessary except for cheap wedding/portrait packages, and
                  nobody with fully developed personal skills relied upon color analyzers.


                  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Craig Snyder"
                  <forum@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Right on, Clayton!
                  >
                  > Stick and rudder.
                  >
                  > I have a high-understanding of technology as a former IT Admin person
                  > for several major publishing companies, but when it comes to
                  > print-making I like the seat of the pants approach best.
                  >
                  > Afterall, why as a traditional photographer in the 70s and 80s do I have
                  > all these 35mm negs and contact sheets but no prints. Because that was
                  > about as much time as I could stand in the darkroom. I wanted to be
                  > outside, shooting, not bending over trays of chemicals in the dark for
                  > unknown hours. Neither do I today want to be messing with a bunch more
                  > things like various pieces of software, hardware, etc. Like you, I
                  > prefer to go from A to B, rather than pass through the alphabet to get
                  > to the end.
                  >
                  > Stick and rudder is a very appealing descriptive approach. I too,
                  > watched this forum and followed the comments and techniques of its
                  > users, and mostly two people the most, which is you, Clayton Jones, and
                  > Paul Roark. You phrase clicked with me. All this time I've been bogged
                  > down processing the information on how to get good prints from this
                  > forum. Now I realize, you perspective is really my perspective too.
                  >
                  > I've got modern technolgy at hand (1280, R220), and I'm still not making
                  > prints. I'm in the middle of writing several books so I really don't
                  > cherish lost hours at the computer trouching up negs and making prints,
                  > which lack consistancy.
                  >
                  > That's one thing about stick rudder I must add, and that is: it must
                  > work, be consistant, in order to be valid.
                  >
                  > By example, I was doing BO prints of one neg the other week for a
                  > charity event. I got one print finally to my liking. Then my G4/1280
                  > started choking on the print, only printing the top 15% of the image.
                  > Didn't matter if the print size was 11x17 or 5x7, it choked in the same
                  > exact spot on the image. I did some voodoo, and I also reinstalled new
                  > print drivers. That wasn't smart, the new R220 print driver messed up my
                  > 1280 print driver and ALL settings. I reinstalled the 1280 driver. I
                  > finally saw my old presets and I finally got it to print the whole
                  > image. But now, get this, the tone, contrast and even hue changed on
                  > this BO print!? It was unusuable and nothing like the first print out of
                  > the machine. I cleaned heads, etc. but didn't seem to help. A real
                  > mystery. It meant starting over. Well, I dropped the novel idea of a
                  > quick print for some friends and went back to writing my book.
                  >
                  > One day I'll get back to it, and one day, when there's money, I'll get a
                  > 2400 and just see how much easier my life might become.
                  >
                  > Simplicity is best. Technology is what got us here today, but who's the
                  > master? Is it technology--or us?
                  >
                  > thanks,
                  > Craig
                  >
                  > --
                  > Craig B. Snyder
                  > Writer and Photographer, www.thecraigsnyder.com
                  > <http://www.thecraigsnyder.com/>
                  > A Secret History of the Ollie www.theolliebook.com
                  > <http://theolliebook.com/>
                  >
                  > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones"
                  > wrote:>> Hello Eugene,> I'm currently using a 2400 with K3/ABW and am
                  > still happy with the> stick and rudder non color managed approach.
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • dlruckus
                  Hi Clayton. I m very technically oriented myself, but I learned a very long time ago that an agile mind can usually substitute for many thousands of dollars
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jun 5, 2007
                    Hi Clayton. I'm very technically oriented myself, but I learned a very
                    long time ago that an agile mind can usually substitute for many
                    thousands of dollars worth of gear. Save a lot of time as well in many
                    cases.

                    Regards
                    Duane



                    --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones"
                    <cj@...> wrote:
                    >
                    all my darkroom instincts
                    > have transferred over and I very much enjoy working this way.
                    >
                    > Not everyone has the temperament and/or inclination for the high tech
                    > approach, and for someone doing their own work for their own purposes
                    > it's a great way to fly.
                    > Regards,
                    > Clayton
                    >
                    >
                    > Info on black and white digital printing at
                    > http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
                    >
                  • Bob Frost
                    ... 1280 modern? I ve been through 7 generations of Epsons from EX, 1270, 1280/90, 2000, 2100/2200, R1800, and R2400, so the 1280/90 is five generations
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jun 6, 2007
                      > I've got modern technolgy at hand (1280, R220),

                      1280 modern? I've been through 7 generations of Epsons from EX, 1270,
                      1280/90, 2000, 2100/2200, R1800, and R2400, so the 1280/90 is five
                      generations out-of-date!

                      > when there's money, I'll get a
                      > 2400 and just see how much easier my life might become.

                      It really is much, much better than any of the earlier Epsons.

                      Bob Frost.

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Craig Snyder" <forum@...>
                      To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
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