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Re: [Digital BW] I went to PMA and lived!

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  • Ernst Dinkla
    ... Steven, thank you for the report. I m afraid that it will not be that easy to drive the iPF5000 with QTR. The Canon driver is a 16 bit plug-in for
    Message 1 of 15 , Mar 1, 2006
      Steven Karafyllakis wrote:

      > The iPF5000 is 17" with 12 inks, has full-time MK, PK, LK, and LLK
      > as well as the cyans, magentas, and green, red, and blue. Lots of
      > possibilities if you have a rip, and/or Roy supports it with QTR.
      > the price for this one will be 1995.00 USD.

      Steven, thank you for the report.

      I'm afraid that it will not be that easy to drive the iPF5000
      with QTR. The Canon driver is a 16 bit plug-in for Photoshop
      (and a Canon application). QTR isn't 16 bit AFAIK.


      Ernst

      --
      Ernst Dinkla


      www.pigment-print.com
      ( unvollendet )
    • alanrew42
      ... wrote: ... Not only that, but driving a printer directly, rather than via the Windows GDI interface, is a whole different ball game.
      Message 2 of 15 , Mar 1, 2006
        --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla
        <E.Dinkla@...> wrote:
        <snip>

        > I'm afraid that it will not be that easy to drive the iPF5000
        > with QTR. The Canon driver is a 16 bit plug-in for Photoshop
        > (and a Canon application). QTR isn't 16 bit AFAIK.

        Not only that, but driving a printer directly, rather than via the
        Windows GDI interface, is a whole different ball game. Maybe the guys
        on the gimp-print project will have a go at producing a driver for
        this printer. I assume QTR uses GDI, which is (currently) limited to 8
        bits per channel.

        Regards,

        Alan
      • alanrew42
        ... Karafyllakis wrote: ... Thanks for the very useful report Steve. Do Canon have any ICC profiles for these printers on their web
        Message 3 of 15 , Mar 1, 2006
          --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steven
          Karafyllakis" <stevekphoto@...> wrote:
          <snip>

          > The color gamut with pigments on their best RC papers is excellent-
          > IMO no-one will find cause for complaint there.

          Thanks for the very useful report Steve.

          Do Canon have any ICC profiles for these printers on their web site?

          Was there any sign of metamerism with these pigments? Of course this
          would need a vraiety of lighting conditions to test properly

          TIA

          Alan
        • Ernst Dinkla
          ... No profiles yet. I have searched several times over the last days. Ernst -- Ernst Dinkla www.pigment-print.com ( unvollendet )
          Message 4 of 15 , Mar 1, 2006
            alanrew42 wrote:
            > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steven
            > Karafyllakis" <stevekphoto@...> wrote:
            > <snip>
            >
            >> The color gamut with pigments on their best RC papers is excellent-
            >> IMO no-one will find cause for complaint there.
            >
            > Thanks for the very useful report Steve.
            >
            > Do Canon have any ICC profiles for these printers on their web site?
            >
            > Was there any sign of metamerism with these pigments? Of course this
            > would need a vraiety of lighting conditions to test properly
            >
            > TIA
            >
            > Alan


            No profiles yet. I have searched several times over the last days.

            Ernst

            --
            Ernst Dinkla


            www.pigment-print.com
            ( unvollendet )
          • Ernst Dinkla
            ... Alan, The first QTR versions didn t use the usual Windows route for printer driver data if I recall it correctly. To be honest I rather see QTR become more
            Message 5 of 15 , Mar 1, 2006
              alanrew42 wrote:
              > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla
              > <E.Dinkla@...> wrote:
              > <snip>
              >
              >> I'm afraid that it will not be that easy to drive the iPF5000
              >> with QTR. The Canon driver is a 16 bit plug-in for Photoshop
              >> (and a Canon application). QTR isn't 16 bit AFAIK.
              >
              > Not only that, but driving a printer directly, rather than via the
              > Windows GDI interface, is a whole different ball game. Maybe the guys
              > on the gimp-print project will have a go at producing a driver for
              > this printer. I assume QTR uses GDI, which is (currently) limited to 8
              > bits per channel.

              Alan,

              The first QTR versions didn't use the usual Windows route for
              printer driver data if I recall it correctly. To be honest I
              rather see QTR become more a Windows driver in total than it
              is now. It would suit the combination with Qimage a lot if its
              input was more Windows driver like.

              There will be a lot of changes in the next years when Vista
              arrives + the combination with 64 bit systems and it is not
              unlikely that Canon will deliver 16 bit drivers that are more
              in Windows style then. Canon and Microsoft cooperate in the
              new WCS color management of Vista.

              Gutenprint is already up to 16 bit (and 32 channels
              addressable ! ). Color management for it becomes serious too
              with LCMS and Argyll spin-offs so I think there will be no
              lack of third party/open source software to fill in where the
              OEM software doesn't.

              Mike Chaney of Qimage will not support the Canon plug-in route
              for the time being. He waits for Windows drivers and that
              could mean that it will take several years.

              Ernst


              --
              Ernst Dinkla


              www.pigment-print.com
              ( unvollendet )
            • John
              Alan, Our PocketRIP is both 16bit and is a plugin to PhotoShop, it is also both Mac and PC. We are currently negotiating with Canon for the printing sdk and
              Message 6 of 15 , Mar 1, 2006
                Alan,
                Our "PocketRIP" is both 16bit and is a plugin to PhotoShop, it is also both Mac and PC. We are currently negotiating with Canon for the printing sdk and a Machine on which to work.

                John_E
                Dragon Inkjet Technologies Ltd.
                Call me off group if interested

                alanrew42 <Alan-Rew@...> wrote:
                --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla
                <E.Dinkla@...> wrote:
                <snip>

                > I'm afraid that it will not be that easy to drive the iPF5000
                > with QTR. The Canon driver is a 16 bit plug-in for Photoshop
                > (and a Canon application). QTR isn't 16 bit AFAIK.

                Not only that, but driving a printer directly, rather than via the
                Windows GDI interface, is a whole different ball game. Maybe the guys
                on the gimp-print project will have a go at producing a driver for
                this printer. I assume QTR uses GDI, which is (currently) limited to 8
                bits per channel.

                Regards,

                Alan






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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • alanrew42
                ... it is also both Mac and PC. We are currently negotiating with Canon for the printing sdk and a Machine on which to work. ... John, Does your company have a
                Message 7 of 15 , Mar 1, 2006
                  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, John
                  <charleysfabrics@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Alan,
                  > Our "PocketRIP" is both 16bit and is a plugin to PhotoShop,
                  it is also both Mac and PC. We are currently negotiating with Canon
                  for the printing sdk and a Machine on which to work.
                  >
                  > John_E
                  > Dragon Inkjet Technologies Ltd.
                  > Call me off group if interested

                  John,

                  Does your company have a web site? Lots of googling has failed to find
                  it...

                  TIA

                  Alan
                • Carl Schofield
                  Steve, Did you see the new Hahnemuhle gloss/FB paper that was mentioned on the LLS site? http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/pma2006.shtml Carl
                  Message 8 of 15 , Mar 1, 2006
                    Steve,

                    Did you see the new Hahnemuhle gloss/FB paper that was mentioned on the LLS site?
                    http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/pma2006.shtml

                    Carl

                    --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steven Karafyllakis"
                    <stevekphoto@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Definitely not for the faint of heart, or weak of limb-a day of that
                    > left me quite exhausted.
                    >
                    > I did get a cursory look at Canon's new printers, and lots of large
                    > sample prints on display. I also had a brief exchange with one of
                    > the reps, and picked up a brochure. To recap the general specs:
                    >
                    > the Pro 9500 is a 13' printer with 10 inks. It has MK PK and LK, but
                    > no LLK, so you're looking at a 2K black setup, not 3K. Price is
                    > about $800.00
                    >
                    > The iPF5000 is 17" with 12 inks, has full-time MK, PK, LK, and LLK
                    > as well as the cyans, magentas, and green, red, and blue. Lots of
                    > possibilities if you have a rip, and/or Roy supports it with QTR.
                    > the price for this one will be 1995.00 USD.
                    >
                    > The color gamut with pigments on their best RC papers is excellent-
                    > IMO no-one will find cause for complaint there.
                    >
                    > I saw no bronzing at all on glossy or satin papers. There was a tiny
                    > bit of gloss diff. on the glossy, but a fair amount on the satin.
                    > The satin showed as a much reduced glossiness in the blacks that was
                    > quite obvious at a steep angle, but not at any normal viewing angle.
                    >
                    > They also had some examples of B&W on cotton papers. Nowhere in the
                    > brochure is there mention of anything like Epson's ABW, so I don't
                    > know how these where printed. They looked fairly neutral, but had
                    > that hint of color that suggests they where primarily full color
                    > ripped to be neutral. Unfortunately none of them had particularly
                    > outstanding Dmax, but without knowing more and having direct
                    > comparisons or hard numbers, I'm going to withold judgment. Suffice
                    > to say that my first impression was a bit underwhelming.
                    >
                    > I was told by the rep that on their best papers, the inks are
                    > getting around 105 test-years by standards Wilhelm admitted where
                    > more stringent than his own. We'll see where the dust settles on
                    > that one.
                    >
                    > Aside from these printers, not much else got my interest up. At the
                    > time I was unaware that HP had anounced a new pigment printer, so I
                    > didn't stop by the HP pavilion.
                    >
                    > Of the cameras that where actually there and available to fondle,
                    > (the new Panasonic was not) the most interesting one was the Olypmus
                    > E-volt 330. If the noise level is acceptable they have a real
                    > winner, it looks to be a great design & feature set.
                    >
                    > Steve Karafyllakis
                    >
                  • Ernst Dinkla
                    ... 16 bit throughout data flow is something else than accepting 16 bit/channel images. I do see the last in the PocketRip PDF specs but no mention of the
                    Message 9 of 15 , Mar 1, 2006
                      John wrote:
                      > Alan,
                      > Our "PocketRIP" is both 16bit and is a plugin to PhotoShop, it is also both Mac and PC. We are currently negotiating with Canon for the printing sdk and a Machine on which to work.
                      >
                      > John_E

                      16 bit throughout data flow is something else than accepting
                      16 bit/channel images. I do see the last in the PocketRip PDF
                      specs but no mention of the first. The Epson driver accepts 16
                      bit/channel images as well but makes them 8 bit again before
                      it starts the processing.

                      The Sundance pages for R9 etc have no reference to 16
                      bit/channel throughout data flow either. I would be surprised
                      if the PockerRip got an upgrade to 16 bit so recently.

                      So what is it John ?

                      Ernst


                      --
                      Ernst Dinkla


                      www.pigment-print.com
                      ( unvollendet )
                    • John
                      Dear Ernst, I am sorry my English is not up to your standard!!! Appologies to anyone in advance if it seems like I am repeating myself. Tech Note:- The color
                      Message 10 of 15 , Mar 1, 2006
                        Dear Ernst,
                        I am sorry my English is not up to your standard!!!

                        Appologies to anyone in advance if it seems like I am repeating myself.

                        Tech Note:-

                        The color module in the R9 pipeline is a true 16-bit in/out processor: 8-bit data are converted UP to 16-bits.
                        Other modules in the pipeline use data types appropriate for their purpose: the Scale module, for example, uses floating point arithmetic.

                        I hopr that simplifies it for you.

                        Regards

                        John_E

                        Ernst Dinkla <E.Dinkla@...> wrote:
                        John wrote:
                        > Alan,
                        > Our "PocketRIP" is both 16bit and is a plugin to PhotoShop, it is also both Mac and PC. We are currently negotiating with Canon for the printing sdk and a Machine on which to work.
                        >
                        > John_E

                        16 bit throughout data flow is something else than accepting
                        16 bit/channel images. I do see the last in the PocketRip PDF
                        specs but no mention of the first. The Epson driver accepts 16
                        bit/channel images as well but makes them 8 bit again before
                        it starts the processing.

                        The Sundance pages for R9 etc have no reference to 16
                        bit/channel throughout data flow either. I would be surprised
                        if the PockerRip got an upgrade to 16 bit so recently.

                        So what is it John ?

                        Ernst


                        --
                        Ernst Dinkla


                        www.pigment-print.com
                        ( unvollendet )




                        Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.

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                        BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.




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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Ernst Dinkla
                        ... In the PocketRip PDF manual as saved from the website I see this line at page 3: - A screening module that maps the image data, which is stored internally
                        Message 11 of 15 , Mar 1, 2006
                          John wrote:
                          > Dear Ernst,
                          > I am sorry my English is not up to your standard!!!
                          >
                          > Appologies to anyone in advance if it seems like I am repeating myself.
                          >
                          > Tech Note:-
                          >
                          > The color module in the R9 pipeline is a true 16-bit in/out processor: 8-bit data are converted UP to 16-bits.
                          > Other modules in the pipeline use data types appropriate for their purpose: the Scale module, for example, uses floating point arithmetic.
                          >
                          > I hopr that simplifies it for you.
                          >
                          > Regards
                          >
                          > John_E

                          In the PocketRip PDF manual as saved from the website I see
                          this line at page 3:

                          - A screening module that maps the image data, which
                          is stored internally as 8-bits/channel, to the data
                          depth required by the printer. For the Epson Stylus
                          printers, the data depth is either 1- or 2-bits/channel.
                          The printer model determines key module
                          parameters.

                          And on page 4:

                          SUPPORTED IMAGE MODES
                          8-bit/channel and 16-bit/channel Grayscale, RGB color,
                          CMYK Color, and Lab Color image modes are
                          supported. Layered and multi-channel images can be
                          exported without flattening the image.

                          end of quotes

                          Nothing else mentioned on 16 bit.

                          Could be my English of course.

                          16 bit isn't mentioned anywhere on the Sundance website.

                          Color management often is in 16 bit, internal look up tables
                          can be 16 bit. But that makes the total of a RIP or driver not
                          16 bit throughout.

                          --
                          Ernst Dinkla


                          www.pigment-print.com
                          ( unvollendet )
                        • Steven Karafyllakis
                          No Carl; doesn t mean it wasn t there, I m not sure I was even aware of its existence when I went. I did see several samples of the Museo Silver rag, including
                          Message 12 of 15 , Mar 1, 2006
                            No Carl;
                            doesn't mean it wasn't there, I'm not sure I was even aware of its
                            existence when I went. I did see several samples of the Museo Silver
                            rag, including one that the booth attendant though was a non-beta
                            (post-beta?) sample print. The surface looked more evenly glossy,
                            though still a bit blotchy. An improvement though if thats the case.

                            Steve

                            --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Carl
                            Schofield" <scho@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Steve,
                            >
                            > Did you see the new Hahnemuhle gloss/FB paper that was mentioned
                            on the LLS site?
                            > http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/pma2006.shtml
                            >
                            > Carl
                            >
                          • John
                            ... I will try again, This is from Gary Rogers the pipeline constructor Tech Note:- Mr. Dinkler s observation that the PocketRIP documentation states that the
                            Message 13 of 15 , Mar 2, 2006
                              Ernst Dinkla <E.Dinkla@...> wrote: John wrote:
                              > Dear Ernst,
                              > Apologies to anyone in advance if it seems like I am repeating myself.

                              I will try again, This is from Gary Rogers the pipeline constructor
                              Tech Note:-

                              Mr. Dinkler's observation that the PocketRIP documentation states that the screen module stores and processes the image data as 8-bit data, and Dr. Edmunds' statement that the R9 Pipeline is a 16-bit pipeline with an eight (8) channel, 16-bit/channel ICC engine are both correct and not contradictory.

                              From it's initial design specification to its final development, the R9 Pipeline integrated into the PocketRIP was built as a sixteen (16) channel, 16-bit/channel image processing pipeline. The current inkjet printers supported by the PocketRIP expect a printed dot to be represented by either one or two bits per color channel. For computational efficiencies, the R9 screening module that interfaces with this class of printers converts the 16-bit data output from the color module to 8-bit data, and then converts the 8-bit data to 1- or 2-bit data streams. There is no visible (or measurable) loss of print quality by executing the screening algorithms in two steps (16 to 8; and 8 to 1 or 2) rather than in one step (16 to 1 or 2).

                              When a class of inkjet printers becomes available that accepts 16-bit input data, the R9 pipeline's interface to the R9 driver module will be simplified: the 16-bit output from the color module can be piped directly to the driver, bypassing the screening module. Implementation of the R9 pipeline in applications that drive very high resolution digital imaging devices already take advantage of the pipeline's 32-bit in X and Y, 16-bit in Z, address space.

                              As stated above, the R9 pipeline integrated in the PocketRIP supports up to sixteen channels; the PocketRIP documentation and Dr. Edmunds' statement mention eight channel support. When the class of supported printer require a twelve or sixteen channel input stream, the PocketRIP drivers and documentation will be changed accordingly.

                              With regard to the PocketRIP's documentation stating support for 8-bit and 16-bit image modes, this reflects the image modes supported in Photoshop and not a limitation of the PocketRIP.



                              Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.

                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

                              If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

                              Please follow these basic guidelines:
                              - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
                              - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
                              - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
                              - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files section:
                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

                              BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.





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                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Ernst Dinkla
                              ... John, That settles it. More or less a hybrid then with more 16 bit aspects than I expected. Ernst -- Ernst Dinkla www.pigment-print.com (
                              Message 14 of 15 , Mar 4, 2006
                                John wrote:

                                > I will try again, This is from Gary Rogers the pipeline constructor
                                > Tech Note:-
                                >
                                > Mr. Dinkla's observation that the PocketRIP documentation states that the screen module stores and processes the image data as 8-bit data, and Dr. Edmunds' statement that the R9 Pipeline is a 16-bit pipeline with an eight (8) channel, 16-bit/channel ICC engine are both correct and not contradictory.
                                >
                                > From it's initial design specification to its final development, the R9 Pipeline integrated into the PocketRIP was built as a sixteen (16) channel, 16-bit/channel image processing pipeline. The current inkjet printers supported by the PocketRIP expect a printed dot to be represented by either one or two bits per color channel. For computational efficiencies, the R9 screening module that interfaces with this class of printers converts the 16-bit data output from the color module to 8-bit data, and then converts the 8-bit data to 1- or 2-bit data streams. There is no visible (or measurable) loss of print quality by executing the screening algorithms in two steps (16 to 8; and 8 to 1 or 2) rather than in one step (16 to 1 or 2).
                                >
                                > When a class of inkjet printers becomes available that accepts 16-bit input data, the R9 pipeline's interface to the R9 driver module will be simplified: the 16-bit output from the color module can be piped directly to the driver, bypassing the screening module. Implementation of the R9 pipeline in applications that drive very high resolution digital imaging devices already take advantage of the pipeline's 32-bit in X and Y, 16-bit in Z, address space.
                                >
                                > As stated above, the R9 pipeline integrated in the PocketRIP supports up to sixteen channels; the PocketRIP documentation and Dr. Edmunds' statement mention eight channel support. When the class of supported printer require a twelve or sixteen channel input stream, the PocketRIP drivers and documentation will be changed accordingly.
                                >
                                > With regard to the PocketRIP's documentation stating support for 8-bit and 16-bit image modes, this reflects the image modes supported in Photoshop and not a limitation of the PocketRIP.

                                John,

                                That settles it. More or less a hybrid then with more 16 bit
                                aspects than I expected.

                                Ernst
                                --
                                Ernst Dinkla


                                www.pigment-print.com
                                ( unvollendet )
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