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Re: [Digital BW] digital IR conversion

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  • mehrdad
    dealing with david @ irdigtial.net is not a good idea. he has had me camera for almost 8 weeks. he does respond to email at at all. he does work for canon so i
    Message 1 of 29 , Jun 1, 2005
      dealing with david @ irdigtial.net is not a good idea. he has had me
      camera for almost 8 weeks. he does respond to email at at all. he does
      work for canon so i am going to pursue him via canon corporate. it is
      best to find alternative to irdigital.net

      On 5/31/05, Fran <winten@...> wrote:
      > HI Paul
      > http://www.irdigital.net/
      > will be doing my D100 conversion.
      >
      > There is also www.maxmax.com that does digital camera conversions too
      >
      >
      > Fran
      > winten@...
      > winten51@...
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "Paul D. DeRocco" <pderocco@...>
      > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 11:29 PM
      > Subject: RE: [Digital BW] QTR
      >
      >
      > > From: Fran
      > >
      > > If someone could hold my hand to get my 200P out of mothballs to
      > > get it to
      > > black and white, I would do it in a flash. I am getting my D100
      > > converted to
      > > IR. and will need a B&W printer. On the shelf is the 2200, 1800, 800 that
      > > needs a new home and the 2000P in a box on a shelf.
      >
      > Well, I just started out with QTR, so I'm no expert. Also, although I've
      > tried QTR with my 2200 and the stock inks, I haven't done so with the 2000P.
      > Instead, I bought the UT-FS and UT-FSN inks from MIS, and am trying to
      > develop QTR curves for them. I'm still pretty far up on the learning curve,
      > though.
      >
      > However, setting up QTR, at least on Windows, was pretty trivial. If I
      > manage to come up with some good curves, I'll certainly publish them.
      >
      > By the way, who's doing your IR conversion?
      >
      > --
      >
      > Ciao, Paul D. DeRocco
      > Paul mailto:pderocco@...
      >
      >
      >
      >
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      --
      -------------------------------------
      regards, mehrdad
    • Paul D. DeRocco
      ... Keep us posted. -- Ciao, Paul D. DeRocco Paul mailto:pderocco@ix.netcom.com
      Message 2 of 29 , Jun 1, 2005
        > From: mehrdad
        >
        > dealing with david @ irdigtial.net is not a good idea. he has had me
        > camera for almost 8 weeks. he does respond to email at at all. he does
        > work for canon so i am going to pursue him via canon corporate. it is
        > best to find alternative to irdigital.net

        Keep us posted.

        --

        Ciao, Paul D. DeRocco
        Paul mailto:pderocco@...
      • Henrik Frejborg
        Is there someone in Europe that does these conversions? It should be a trivial operation for any camera service shop really. The only thing a bit special that
        Message 3 of 29 , Jun 1, 2005
          Is there someone in Europe that does these conversions? It should be a
          trivial operation for any camera service shop really. The only thing a
          bit special that is needed is a plain glass of the same dimension as
          the filter removed.

          henrik

          On 1 jun 2005, at 06.25, Fran wrote:

          > HI Paul
          > http://www.irdigital.net/
          > will be doing my D100 conversion.
          >
          > There is also www.maxmax.com that does digital camera conversions too
          >
        • John Moody
          Full conversion includes removal of the Bayer color filter array; not at all easy. A filter to block the visible light as well. Then, you need to process the
          Message 4 of 29 , Jun 1, 2005
            Full conversion includes removal of the Bayer color filter array; not at all
            easy. A filter to block the visible light as well.
            Then, you need to process the raw files without colour interpolation, for a
            true monochrome image.

            John

            -----Original Message-----
            From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
            [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Henrik
            Frejborg
            Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 3:41 AM
            To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [Digital BW] digital IR conversion

            Is there someone in Europe that does these conversions? It should be a
            trivial operation for any camera service shop really. The only thing a
            bit special that is needed is a plain glass of the same dimension as
            the filter removed.

            henrik

            On 1 jun 2005, at 06.25, Fran wrote:




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • lulalake_1999
            ... at all ... for a ... Having shot thousands of IR pics, film and digital I m interested to hear what you mean about color interpolation . Could you expand
            Message 5 of 29 , Jun 1, 2005
              --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John Moody"
              <moodymz3@y...> wrote:
              > Full conversion includes removal of the Bayer color filter array; not
              at all
              > easy. A filter to block the visible light as well.
              > Then, you need to process the raw files without colour interpolation,
              for a
              > true monochrome image.
              >
              > John

              Having shot thousands of IR pics, film and digital I'm interested to
              hear what you mean about "color interpolation". Could you expand on
              those thoughts a bit and describe what a true monochrome image is?

              Thanks

              Jules
            • John Moody
              The color interpolation I mentioned applies to digital array sensors like those found in most digicams and DSLRs, not film. Excepting the Foveon sensor,
              Message 6 of 29 , Jun 1, 2005
                The color interpolation I mentioned applies to digital array sensors like
                those found in most digicams and DSLRs, not film.
                Excepting the Foveon sensor, digital photographic sensors have a patterned
                filter over the imaging chip, allowing the creation of a color image from an
                otherwise “colorblind” sensor. A search for Bayer filter will provide more
                details.
                What I meant by a true monochrome image is one where the intensity reading
                of each element in the digital sensor independently maps to the final image.
                With processing of sensor data with a Bayer interpolation routine, each
                pixel is a combination of its own intensity and some portion of surrounding
                pixels. In-camera jpegs and raw files converted with the standard software
                will do this.

                See David Burren’s page, http://burren.cx/photo/e950ir.html for an example
                of the difference in processing. The fourth image down can be moused over
                for comparison. Note that this image was taken with a sensor containing a
                bayer filter, so it would not meet what I referred to as a “true monochrome
                image”. The filters on that particular camera are rather transparent to
                near-IR so it’s darn close.

                John

                -----Original Message-----
                From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
                [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
                lulalake_1999
                Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 7:48 AM
                To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [Digital BW] digital IR conversion

                --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John Moody"
                <moodymz3@y...> wrote:
                > Full conversion includes removal of the Bayer color filter array; not
                at all
                > easy. A filter to block the visible light as well.
                > Then, you need to process the raw files without colour interpolation,
                for a
                > true monochrome image.
                >
                > John

                Having shot thousands of IR pics, film and digital I'm interested to
                hear what you mean about "color interpolation". Could you expand on
                those thoughts a bit and describe what a true monochrome image is?

                Thanks

                Jules





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • lulalake_1999
                John, Thanks for your reply. It s my understanding that the Bayer filter is more or less impossible to remove without destroying the sensor. Is this your
                Message 7 of 29 , Jun 1, 2005
                  John,

                  Thanks for your reply. It's my understanding that the Bayer filter is
                  more or less impossible to remove without destroying the sensor. Is
                  this your understanding?

                  Also since Foveon has no Bayer filter it would seem that Sigma cameras
                  might be an excellent candidate for IR conversion, based on the sensor.
                  Unfortunately I haven't seen many examples of a Sigma conversion,
                  plenty of Canons and Sonys.

                  Thanks again

                  Jules
                • Adam Maas
                  This depends on the sensor. Some of the newer DSLR s do have the filter integrated (I believe the 20d is this way) while most older DSLR s have a seperate
                  Message 8 of 29 , Jun 1, 2005
                    This depends on the sensor. Some of the newer DSLR's do have the filter
                    integrated (I believe the 20d is this way) while most older DSLR's have
                    a seperate filter which can be removed.

                    Adam



                    lulalake_1999 wrote:
                    > John,
                    >
                    > Thanks for your reply. It's my understanding that the Bayer filter is
                    > more or less impossible to remove without destroying the sensor. Is
                    > this your understanding?
                    >
                    > Also since Foveon has no Bayer filter it would seem that Sigma cameras
                    > might be an excellent candidate for IR conversion, based on the sensor.
                    > Unfortunately I haven't seen many examples of a Sigma conversion,
                    > plenty of Canons and Sonys.
                    >
                    > Thanks again
                    >
                    > Jules
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources
                    > as they are often being updated.
                    >
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
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                  • Paul D. DeRocco
                    ... The Bayer filter is built onto the chip as part of the semiconductor fab process, so it can t just be lifted off. Although people are experimenting with
                    Message 9 of 29 , Jun 1, 2005
                      > From: John Moody
                      >
                      > Full conversion includes removal of the Bayer color filter array;
                      > not at all
                      > easy. A filter to block the visible light as well.
                      > Then, you need to process the raw files without colour
                      > interpolation, for a true monochrome image.

                      The Bayer filter is built onto the chip as part of the semiconductor fab
                      process, so it can't just be lifted off. Although people are experimenting
                      with chemical means of dissolving it, I'm not aware of anyone who's
                      succeeded. But if someone does, the more obvious application would be for
                      B&W photography, not just IR.

                      However, even for IR there is some benefit to the Bayer pattern, because the
                      three colors not only have different visible light responses, they also have
                      different IR responses. It's simply not the case than an IR converted
                      digicam will show everything in the red channel--the other two channels also
                      carry different images, providing an opportunity for bringing out different
                      features of a scene.

                      For instance, my Minolta DiMage 7, which has no IR block filter, generally
                      produces garbage in the blue channel when I put on my R72 filter, but two
                      good but different images in the red and green channels. Not surprisingly,
                      the red channel has the really dark skies, while the green channel has the
                      white leaves. Choosing the proportion of these gives me some artistic
                      control over the image that I wouldn't have if the sensor was monochrome.

                      On the other hand, a monochrome sensor would be much sharper.

                      --

                      Ciao, Paul D. DeRocco
                      Paul mailto:pderocco@...
                    • Paul D. DeRocco
                      ... You re confusing two filters. The Bayer pattern filter, which is what gives each sensor its color, is built right on the chip, as part of the semiconductor
                      Message 10 of 29 , Jun 1, 2005
                        > From: Adam Maas
                        >
                        > This depends on the sensor. Some of the newer DSLR's do have the filter
                        > integrated (I believe the 20d is this way) while most older DSLR's have
                        > a seperate filter which can be removed.

                        You're confusing two filters. The Bayer pattern filter, which is what gives
                        each sensor its color, is built right on the chip, as part of the
                        semiconductor fabrication process. Remember, the individual pixels are on a
                        grid of only a few microns (about 7um in the 20D, much smaller in
                        point-and-shoot digicams), and the filter itself is much thinner than
                        plastic food wrap. There's no way they could ever fabricate that as a
                        separate filter and then align it to the chip.

                        The filter you're thinking of is the anti-alias and IR block filter. This is
                        a solid glass filter, not patterned, that fits over the chip. I'm told that
                        in the 10D it's glued on, but in many cameras it isn't. That's the filter
                        that gets removed in order to make the camera sensitive to IR.

                        --

                        Ciao, Paul D. DeRocco
                        Paul mailto:pderocco@...
                      • Gary Brown
                        Actually, it requires more than plain glass be put in front of the sensor. The high quality conversions such as done by Hutech, use a multicoated clear filter
                        Message 11 of 29 , Jun 1, 2005
                          Actually, it requires more than plain glass be put in front of the sensor.
                          The high quality conversions such as done by Hutech, use a multicoated clear
                          filter to eliminate ghosting.

                          Gary
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Henrik Frejborg" <henrik.frejborg@...>
                          To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 12:40 AM
                          Subject: Re: [Digital BW] digital IR conversion


                          Is there someone in Europe that does these conversions? It should be a
                          trivial operation for any camera service shop really. The only thing a
                          bit special that is needed is a plain glass of the same dimension as
                          the filter removed.

                          henrik

                          On 1 jun 2005, at 06.25, Fran wrote:

                          > HI Paul
                          > http://www.irdigital.net/
                          > will be doing my D100 conversion.
                          >
                          > There is also www.maxmax.com that does digital camera conversions too
                          >




                          Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
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                        • Gary Brown
                          Hutech www.sciencecenter.net/hutech modifies the Sigma. Gary ... From: lulalake_1999 To:
                          Message 12 of 29 , Jun 1, 2005
                            Hutech www.sciencecenter.net/hutech
                            modifies the Sigma.

                            Gary
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "lulalake_1999" <lulalake_1999@...>
                            To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 6:46 AM
                            Subject: Re: [Digital BW] digital IR conversion


                            John,

                            Thanks for your reply. It's my understanding that the Bayer filter is
                            more or less impossible to remove without destroying the sensor. Is
                            this your understanding?

                            Also since Foveon has no Bayer filter it would seem that Sigma cameras
                            might be an excellent candidate for IR conversion, based on the sensor.
                            Unfortunately I haven't seen many examples of a Sigma conversion,
                            plenty of Canons and Sonys.

                            Thanks again

                            Jules








                            Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
                            they are often being updated.

                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

                            If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
                            unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
                            page.

                            Please follow these basic guidelines:
                            - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
                            them short.
                            - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
                            Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
                            membership without notice.
                            - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
                            printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
                            the membership.
                            - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
                            guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
                            Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

                            BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
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                            FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
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                            GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE "OWNER" AND
                            "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
                            POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
                            TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
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                          • colingruk
                            ... be a ... thing a ... as ... too ... I counsel against using the Irguy@irdigital.net http://www.irdigital.net/: he never returned the first D30 I sent to
                            Message 13 of 29 , Jun 1, 2005
                              --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Henrik Frejborg
                              <henrik.frejborg@t...> wrote:
                              > Is there someone in Europe that does these conversions? It should
                              be a
                              > trivial operation for any camera service shop really. The only
                              thing a
                              > bit special that is needed is a plain glass of the same dimension
                              as
                              > the filter removed.
                              >
                              > henrik
                              >
                              > On 1 jun 2005, at 06.25, Fran wrote:
                              >
                              > > HI Paul
                              > > http://www.irdigital.net/
                              > > will be doing my D100 conversion.
                              > >
                              > > There is also www.maxmax.com that does digital camera conversions
                              too
                              > >


                              I counsel against using the Irguy@...
                              http://www.irdigital.net/: he never returned the first D30 I sent to
                              him and didn't answer emails. My experience dealing with him was far
                              from good. Since I am in Europe, taking action against him would
                              have been difficult. Others have alleged that they have not been
                              satisfied, in this thread and at
                              http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic2/120589/0#972006 or search for
                              the topic with the words "Taken by a Fraud & Scammer" posted
                              by "Figtrees" posted on August 13, 2004 .

                              Roger Salmon, in the UK, replaced the filter that digitalIRguy
                              installed in a replacement D30 and corrected for focus. The results
                              were so very markedly better. I recently p'exed that D30 that Roger
                              had re-modified for a D60, and I am thrilled with it. I have no
                              hesitation in recommending him: a gentleman! Contact him at
                              james.salmon@... . I guess for US list members it might
                              appear to be more expensive, but not in my experience compared with
                              the IR guy.

                              Be warned- caveat emptor!

                              Colin
                            • koloshor
                              ... That s because there s no such thing as a Sigma conversion . It doesn t need one ;) On the Sigma SD10, the IR blocking filter is incorporated in an
                              Message 14 of 29 , Jun 2, 2005
                                --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "lulalake_1999"
                                <lulalake_1999@y...> wrote:
                                > John,
                                >
                                > Thanks for your reply. It's my understanding that the Bayer filter is
                                > more or less impossible to remove without destroying the sensor. Is
                                > this your understanding?
                                >
                                > Also since Foveon has no Bayer filter it would seem that Sigma cameras
                                > might be an excellent candidate for IR conversion, based on the sensor.
                                > Unfortunately I haven't seen many examples of a Sigma conversion,
                                > plenty of Canons and Sonys.

                                That's because there's no such thing as a "Sigma conversion". It
                                doesn't need one ;)

                                On the Sigma SD10, the IR blocking filter is incorporated in an
                                optical window (called the "dust protector") right behind the lens
                                mount. It is removable for cleaning. All you have to do is remove one
                                screw, put the dust protector someplace safe, and you're good to go.
                                The camera even comes with the screwdriver (and the procedure for
                                removing the dust protector is documented in the manual).

                                So, in the field, in 2 minutes flat, you can switch your Sigma SD10 to
                                IR, or back to visible light.

                                The IR performance is excellent. The Sigma forum on dpReview maintains
                                a large user gallery on pBase, and you can see many fine examples there.

                                I typically tell people the SD10 is the best camera currently on the
                                market for IR. And it's very good for near UV, too.

                                Note that the older Sigma SD9 has its IR blocking filter on the
                                surface of the sensor window, and you can't remove it without doing a
                                lot of damage. You want SD10.
                              • koloshor
                                ... experimenting ... Ray Fraser. He hangs around the digital photography forum over at photo.net. He s scraped them off (doing enormous damage) but has
                                Message 15 of 29 , Jun 2, 2005
                                  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul D. DeRocco"
                                  <pderocco@i...> wrote:
                                  > > From: John Moody
                                  > >
                                  > > Full conversion includes removal of the Bayer color filter array;
                                  > > not at all
                                  > > easy. A filter to block the visible light as well.
                                  > > Then, you need to process the raw files without colour
                                  > > interpolation, for a true monochrome image.
                                  >
                                  > The Bayer filter is built onto the chip as part of the semiconductor fab
                                  > process, so it can't just be lifted off. Although people are
                                  experimenting
                                  > with chemical means of dissolving it, I'm not aware of anyone who's
                                  > succeeded.

                                  Ray Fraser. He hangs around the digital photography forum over at
                                  photo.net.

                                  He's scraped them off (doing enormous damage) but has finally managed
                                  to successfully disolve one, just this week.

                                  > But if someone does, the more obvious application would be for
                                  > B&W photography, not just IR.

                                  Yup.

                                  > However, even for IR there is some benefit to the Bayer pattern,
                                  because the
                                  > three colors not only have different visible light responses, they
                                  also have
                                  > different IR responses. It's simply not the case than an IR converted
                                  > digicam will show everything in the red channel--the other two
                                  channels also
                                  > carry different images, providing an opportunity for bringing out
                                  different
                                  > features of a scene.
                                  >
                                  > For instance, my Minolta DiMage 7, which has no IR block filter,
                                  generally
                                  > produces garbage in the blue channel when I put on my R72 filter,
                                  but two
                                  > good but different images in the red and green channels. Not
                                  surprisingly,
                                  > the red channel has the really dark skies, while the green channel
                                  has the
                                  > white leaves. Choosing the proportion of these gives me some artistic
                                  > control over the image that I wouldn't have if the sensor was
                                  monochrome.

                                  We digital IR fans call that "false color".

                                  > On the other hand, a monochrome sensor would be much sharper.

                                  Use a Wratten 87 (Hoya RM90), instead of that Wratten 89B (Hoya R72)
                                  of yours, and you'll see true IR monochrome.
                                • koloshor
                                  ... Gary, what would they do to the Sigma? It already has a filter mount between the bayonett and mirror, like what Hutech installs in Canon cameras. All you
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Jun 2, 2005
                                    --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Brown"
                                    <baffin@c...> wrote:
                                    > Hutech www.sciencecenter.net/hutech
                                    > modifies the Sigma.

                                    Gary, what would they do to the Sigma?

                                    It already has a filter mount between the bayonett and mirror, like
                                    what Hutech installs in Canon cameras. All you need is a new filter,
                                    and you're good to go.
                                  • koloshor
                                    ... reading ... final image. ... surrounding ... software ... example ... moused over ... containing a ... monochrome ... It s more than just darn close . I
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Jun 2, 2005
                                      --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John Moody"
                                      <moodymz3@y...> wrote:
                                      > What I meant by a true monochrome image is one where the intensity
                                      reading
                                      > of each element in the digital sensor independently maps to the
                                      final image.
                                      > With processing of sensor data with a Bayer interpolation routine, each
                                      > pixel is a combination of its own intensity and some portion of
                                      surrounding
                                      > pixels. In-camera jpegs and raw files converted with the standard
                                      software
                                      > will do this.
                                      >
                                      > See David Burren's page, http://burren.cx/photo/e950ir.html for an
                                      example
                                      > of the difference in processing. The fourth image down can be
                                      moused over
                                      > for comparison. Note that this image was taken with a sensor
                                      containing a
                                      > bayer filter, so it would not meet what I referred to as a "true
                                      monochrome
                                      > image". The filters on that particular camera are rather transparent to
                                      > near-IR so it's darn close.

                                      It's more than just "darn close". I use the same trick on my Nikon
                                      D100, shoot through a Wratten 87, convert with Dave Coffin's DCRAW in
                                      "document mode", then equalize the levels, and deviation is less than
                                      1%, comparable to an actual monochrome sensor.

                                      The filters on all cameras that I've ever worked with are pretty much
                                      transparent to IR about 750nm.
                                    • Adam Maas
                                      And then there s the Canon 20da, which is intended for Astrophotography work, but has a different IR low-pass filter that is apparently very IR-friendly. It s
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Jun 2, 2005
                                        And then there's the Canon 20da, which is intended for Astrophotography
                                        work, but has a different IR low-pass filter that is apparently very
                                        IR-friendly. It's just been introduced to the world market (Previously
                                        it was a japan-only camera).

                                        -Adam




                                        koloshor wrote:
                                        > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "lulalake_1999"
                                        > <lulalake_1999@y...> wrote:
                                        > > John,
                                        > >
                                        > > Thanks for your reply. It's my understanding that the Bayer filter is
                                        > > more or less impossible to remove without destroying the sensor. Is
                                        > > this your understanding?
                                        > >
                                        > > Also since Foveon has no Bayer filter it would seem that Sigma cameras
                                        > > might be an excellent candidate for IR conversion, based on the sensor.
                                        > > Unfortunately I haven't seen many examples of a Sigma conversion,
                                        > > plenty of Canons and Sonys.
                                        >
                                        > That's because there's no such thing as a "Sigma conversion". It
                                        > doesn't need one ;)
                                        >
                                        > On the Sigma SD10, the IR blocking filter is incorporated in an
                                        > optical window (called the "dust protector") right behind the lens
                                        > mount. It is removable for cleaning. All you have to do is remove one
                                        > screw, put the dust protector someplace safe, and you're good to go.
                                        > The camera even comes with the screwdriver (and the procedure for
                                        > removing the dust protector is documented in the manual).
                                        >
                                        > So, in the field, in 2 minutes flat, you can switch your Sigma SD10 to
                                        > IR, or back to visible light.
                                        >
                                        > The IR performance is excellent. The Sigma forum on dpReview maintains
                                        > a large user gallery on pBase, and you can see many fine examples there.
                                        >
                                        > I typically tell people the SD10 is the best camera currently on the
                                        > market for IR. And it's very good for near UV, too.
                                        >
                                        > Note that the older Sigma SD9 has its IR blocking filter on the
                                        > surface of the sensor window, and you can't remove it without doing a
                                        > lot of damage. You want SD10.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources
                                        > as they are often being updated.
                                        >
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                                      • Paul D. DeRocco
                                        ... That s good news. I ll have to check him out. ... Is that a 900nm cutoff filter? I would expect longer exposure times with that. With the R72, I can barely
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Jun 2, 2005
                                          > From: koloshor
                                          >
                                          > Ray Fraser. He hangs around the digital photography forum over at
                                          > photo.net.
                                          >
                                          > He's scraped them off (doing enormous damage) but has finally managed
                                          > to successfully disolve one, just this week.

                                          That's good news. I'll have to check him out.

                                          > Use a Wratten 87 (Hoya RM90), instead of that Wratten 89B (Hoya R72)
                                          > of yours, and you'll see true IR monochrome.

                                          Is that a 900nm cutoff filter? I would expect longer exposure times with
                                          that. With the R72, I can barely hand-hold my DiMage 7 in bright sunlight.
                                          Not that I'm not willing to try it.

                                          --

                                          Ciao, Paul D. DeRocco
                                          Paul mailto:pderocco@...
                                        • Paul D. DeRocco
                                          ... Is this filter in the viewfinder path, or behind the mirror? It would be difficult to use the camera if it was in front. At least with lens mounted filters
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Jun 2, 2005
                                            > From: koloshor
                                            >
                                            > That's because there's no such thing as a "Sigma conversion". It
                                            > doesn't need one ;)
                                            >
                                            > On the Sigma SD10, the IR blocking filter is incorporated in an
                                            > optical window (called the "dust protector") right behind the lens
                                            > mount. It is removable for cleaning. All you have to do is remove one
                                            > screw, put the dust protector someplace safe, and you're good to go.
                                            > The camera even comes with the screwdriver (and the procedure for
                                            > removing the dust protector is documented in the manual).
                                            >
                                            > So, in the field, in 2 minutes flat, you can switch your Sigma SD10 to
                                            > IR, or back to visible light.
                                            >
                                            > The IR performance is excellent. The Sigma forum on dpReview maintains
                                            > a large user gallery on pBase, and you can see many fine examples there.
                                            >
                                            > I typically tell people the SD10 is the best camera currently on the
                                            > market for IR. And it's very good for near UV, too.

                                            Is this filter in the viewfinder path, or behind the mirror? It would be
                                            difficult to use the camera if it was in front. At least with lens mounted
                                            filters you can frame the picture on a tripod and take a meter reading, and
                                            then put the filter on.

                                            I've considered getting a Sigma, to experiment with, but all my lenses are
                                            Canon. Some guy in Asia has been working on an adapter, but so far hasn't
                                            succeeded.

                                            --

                                            Ciao, Paul D. DeRocco
                                            Paul mailto:pderocco@...
                                          • Gary Brown
                                            -Gary, what would they do to the Sigma? -It already has a filter mount between the bayonett and mirror, like -what Hutech installs in Canon cameras. All you
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Jun 2, 2005
                                              -Gary, what would they do to the Sigma?

                                              -It already has a filter mount between the bayonett and mirror, like
                                              -what Hutech installs in Canon cameras. All you need is a new filter,
                                              -and you're good to go.


                                              Don't ask me ask Hutech www.sciencecenter.net/hutech


                                              Gary
                                            • Gary Brown
                                              ... -Adam I have a Canon 20D modified by Hutech www.sciencecenter.net/hutech, that really is IR friendly. With an 87IR filter, the exposure time under bright
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Jun 2, 2005
                                                > And then there's the Canon 20da, which is intended for Astrophotography
                                                > work, but has a different IR low-pass filter that is apparently very
                                                > IR-friendly. It's just been introduced to the world market (Previously
                                                > it was a japan-only camera).
                                                >
                                                -Adam

                                                I have a Canon 20D modified by Hutech www.sciencecenter.net/hutech, that
                                                really is IR friendly. With an 87IR filter, the exposure time under bright
                                                sun at ISO 100 is 160th at fll.

                                                Be careful before you purchase a 20Da for IR photography.


                                                Gary
                                              • John Custodio
                                                Hi Gary! I ve been thinking about buying a modified 20D from Hutech. I assume you re satisfied with them? Did you buy a converted camera from them or have
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Jun 2, 2005
                                                  Hi Gary!
                                                  I've been thinking about buying a modified 20D from
                                                  Hutech. I assume you're satisfied with them? Did you
                                                  buy a converted camera from them or have yours
                                                  converted?
                                                  -John

                                                  -
                                                  > I have a Canon 20D modified by Hutech
                                                  > www.sciencecenter.net/hutech, that
                                                  > really is IR friendly. With an 87IR filter, the
                                                  > exposure time under bright
                                                  > sun at ISO 100 is 160th at fll.
                                                  >
                                                  > Be careful before you purchase a 20Da for IR
                                                  > photography.
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Gary
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
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                                                • Pacific New Media
                                                  Paul, According to my understanding Dimage 7 has a little weaker IR blocking filter. But IR blocking filter is definitely there. If it is true that it has no
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Jun 2, 2005
                                                    Paul,

                                                    According to my understanding Dimage 7 has a little weaker IR blocking
                                                    filter. But IR blocking filter is definitely there.

                                                    If it is true that it has no IR blocking filter, after put on an Kodak IR
                                                    filter that passes IR but not visible light, you will get a pretty much
                                                    regular speed like shooting without the IR filter. Like in sunny weather,
                                                    you can get ISO 100, F11, 1/60 sec.

                                                    - philip


                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                    From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
                                                    [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Paul D.
                                                    DeRocco
                                                    Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 3:08 PM
                                                    To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Subject: RE: [Digital BW] digital IR conversion


                                                    > From: John Moody
                                                    >
                                                    > Full conversion includes removal of the Bayer color filter array;
                                                    > not at all
                                                    > easy. A filter to block the visible light as well.
                                                    > Then, you need to process the raw files without colour
                                                    > interpolation, for a true monochrome image.

                                                    The Bayer filter is built onto the chip as part of the semiconductor fab
                                                    process, so it can't just be lifted off. Although people are experimenting
                                                    with chemical means of dissolving it, I'm not aware of anyone who's
                                                    succeeded. But if someone does, the more obvious application would be for
                                                    B&W photography, not just IR.

                                                    However, even for IR there is some benefit to the Bayer pattern, because
                                                    the
                                                    three colors not only have different visible light responses, they also
                                                    have
                                                    different IR responses. It's simply not the case than an IR converted
                                                    digicam will show everything in the red channel--the other two channels
                                                    also
                                                    carry different images, providing an opportunity for bringing out
                                                    different
                                                    features of a scene.

                                                    For instance, my Minolta DiMage 7, which has no IR block filter, generally
                                                    produces garbage in the blue channel when I put on my R72 filter, but two
                                                    good but different images in the red and green channels. Not surprisingly,
                                                    the red channel has the really dark skies, while the green channel has the
                                                    white leaves. Choosing the proportion of these gives me some artistic
                                                    control over the image that I wouldn't have if the sensor was monochrome.

                                                    On the other hand, a monochrome sensor would be much sharper.

                                                    --

                                                    Ciao, Paul D. DeRocco
                                                    Paul mailto:pderocco@...



                                                    Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
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                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  • Paul D. DeRocco
                                                    ... Yes, I suspect it has a filter of some sort, just a weak one. -- Ciao, Paul D. DeRocco Paul mailto:pderocco@ix.netcom.com
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Jun 2, 2005
                                                      > From: Pacific New Media
                                                      >
                                                      > According to my understanding Dimage 7 has a little weaker IR blocking
                                                      > filter. But IR blocking filter is definitely there.
                                                      >
                                                      > If it is true that it has no IR blocking filter, after put on an Kodak IR
                                                      > filter that passes IR but not visible light, you will get a pretty much
                                                      > regular speed like shooting without the IR filter. Like in sunny weather,
                                                      > you can get ISO 100, F11, 1/60 sec.

                                                      Yes, I suspect it has a filter of some sort, just a weak one.

                                                      --

                                                      Ciao, Paul D. DeRocco
                                                      Paul mailto:pderocco@...
                                                    • Gary Brown
                                                      John: I bought the 20D body from them, it comes with a 1 year warrantee. Gary www.pbase.com/garyallenbrown ... From: John Custodio
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , Jun 2, 2005
                                                        John:

                                                        I bought the 20D body from them, it comes with a 1 year warrantee.

                                                        Gary

                                                        www.pbase.com/garyallenbrown
                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                        From: "John Custodio" <custodiojohn@...>
                                                        To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
                                                        Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 2:26 PM
                                                        Subject: Re: [Digital BW] digital IR conversion


                                                        > Hi Gary!
                                                        > I've been thinking about buying a modified 20D from
                                                        > Hutech. I assume you're satisfied with them? Did you
                                                        > buy a converted camera from them or have yours
                                                        > converted?
                                                        > -John
                                                        >
                                                        > -
                                                        > > I have a Canon 20D modified by Hutech
                                                        > > www.sciencecenter.net/hutech, that
                                                        > > really is IR friendly. With an 87IR filter, the
                                                        > > exposure time under bright
                                                        > > sun at ISO 100 is 160th at fll.
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Be careful before you purchase a 20Da for IR
                                                        > > photography.
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Gary
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
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                                                      • John Custodio
                                                        Gary- Thanks. I m probably going to get it sometime soon. -John ... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint ...
                                                        Message 27 of 29 , Jun 3, 2005
                                                          Gary-
                                                          Thanks. I'm probably going to get it sometime soon.
                                                          -John


                                                          --- Gary Brown <baffin@...> wrote:

                                                          > John:
                                                          >
                                                          > I bought the 20D body from them, it comes with a 1
                                                          > year warrantee.
                                                          >
                                                          > Gary
                                                          >
                                                          > www.pbase.com/garyallenbrown
                                                          > ----- Original Message -----
                                                          > From: "John Custodio" <custodiojohn@...>
                                                          > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
                                                          > Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 2:26 PM
                                                          > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] digital IR conversion
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > > Hi Gary!
                                                          > > I've been thinking about buying a modified 20D
                                                          > from
                                                          > > Hutech. I assume you're satisfied with them? Did
                                                          > you
                                                          > > buy a converted camera from them or have yours
                                                          > > converted?
                                                          > > -John
                                                          > >
                                                          > > -
                                                          > > > I have a Canon 20D modified by Hutech
                                                          > > > www.sciencecenter.net/hutech, that
                                                          > > > really is IR friendly. With an 87IR filter, the
                                                          > > > exposure time under bright
                                                          > > > sun at ISO 100 is 160th at fll.
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > > Be careful before you purchase a 20Da for IR
                                                          > > > photography.
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > > Gary
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the
                                                          > Files,
                                                          > > > and other resources as they are often being
                                                          > updated.
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > >
                                                          > >
                                                          >
                                                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily
                                                          > > > digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit
                                                          > your
                                                          > > > Membership preferences by visiting this same
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                                                          > group
                                                          > > > topic of digital B&W printing. Users who
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                                                          > > > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by
                                                          > the
                                                          > > > group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the
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                                                          > > > in the Files section:
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                                                          > > > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY
                                                          > > > UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
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                                                          > > > LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER
                                                          > > > INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE "OWNER" AND
                                                          > > > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO
                                                          > GROUP
                                                          > > > HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH
                                                          > > > DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE
                                                          > > > INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO
                                                          > > > GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION
                                                          > OF
                                                          > > > YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR
                                                          > > > CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW,
                                                          > THE
                                                          > > > PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER
                                                          > RELATING
                                                          > > > TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                          > > >
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                                                          > >
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                                                          > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic
                                                          > posts may be removed from
                                                          > the membership.
                                                          > > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by
                                                          > the group rules and
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                                                          > YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT
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                                                          > SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
                                                          > FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,
                                                          > CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
                                                          > DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR
                                                          > LOSS OF PROFITS,
                                                          > GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN
                                                          > IF THE "OWNER" AND
                                                          > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP
                                                          > HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
                                                          > POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i)
                                                          > THE USE OR THE INABILITY
                                                          > TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
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                                                          > ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii)
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                                                          > THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO
                                                          > GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
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                                                          > GROUP.
                                                          >
                                                          === message truncated ===




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                                                        • mehrdad
                                                          i got my 20d back from david @ irdigital.net, the camera is converted to a bw ir but the ir filter (or lack of it) is very weak and the colors blue and light
                                                          Message 28 of 29 , Jun 6, 2005
                                                            i got my 20d back from david @ irdigital.net, the camera is converted
                                                            to a bw ir but the ir filter (or lack of it) is very weak and the
                                                            colors blue and light brown show up as faint light colors. i have
                                                            contacted david to see what's the problem but he is very very very
                                                            slow to response, i was hoping to have the camera ready before my
                                                            vacation but it don't seem to be


                                                            the other camera david did for me (a digital rebel) is a true bw ir!
                                                            and works great

                                                            On 6/3/05, John Custodio <custodiojohn@...> wrote:
                                                            > Gary-
                                                            > Thanks. I'm probably going to get it sometime soon.
                                                            > -John
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > --- Gary Brown <baffin@...> wrote:
                                                            >
                                                            > > John:
                                                            > >
                                                            > > I bought the 20D body from them, it comes with a 1
                                                            > > year warrantee.
                                                            > >
                                                            > > Gary
                                                            > >
                                                            > > www.pbase.com/garyallenbrown
                                                            > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                            > > From: "John Custodio" <custodiojohn@...>
                                                            > > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
                                                            > > Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 2:26 PM
                                                            > > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] digital IR conversion
                                                            > >
                                                            > >
                                                            > > > Hi Gary!
                                                            > > > I've been thinking about buying a modified 20D
                                                            > > from
                                                            > > > Hutech. I assume you're satisfied with them? Did
                                                            > > you
                                                            > > > buy a converted camera from them or have yours
                                                            > > > converted?
                                                            > > > -John
                                                            > > >
                                                            > > > -
                                                            > > > > I have a Canon 20D modified by Hutech
                                                            > > > > www.sciencecenter.net/hutech, that
                                                            > > > > really is IR friendly. With an 87IR filter, the
                                                            > > > > exposure time under bright
                                                            > > > > sun at ISO 100 is 160th at fll.
                                                            > > > >
                                                            > > > > Be careful before you purchase a 20Da for IR
                                                            > > > > photography.
                                                            > > > >
                                                            > > > >
                                                            > > > > Gary
                                                            > > > >
                                                            > > > >
                                                            > > > >
                                                            > > > >
                                                            > > > >
                                                            > > > >
                                                            > > > >
                                                            > > > >
                                                            > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                                            > > > >
                                                            > > > >
                                                            > > > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the
                                                            > > Files,
                                                            > > > > and other resources as they are often being
                                                            > > updated.
                                                            > > > >
                                                            > > > >
                                                            > > >
                                                            > >
                                                            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
                                                            > > > >
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                                                            > > > > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by
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                                                            > > > > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY
                                                            > > > > UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
                                                            > > > > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO
                                                            > > GROUP
                                                            > > > > SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT,
                                                            > > INDIRECT,
                                                            > > > > INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
                                                            > > > > DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES
                                                            > > FOR
                                                            > > > > LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER
                                                            > > > > INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE "OWNER" AND
                                                            > > > > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO
                                                            > > GROUP
                                                            > > > > HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH
                                                            > > > > DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE
                                                            > > > > INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO
                                                            > > > > GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION
                                                            > > OF
                                                            > > > > YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR
                                                            > > > > CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW,
                                                            > > THE
                                                            > > > > PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER
                                                            > > RELATING
                                                            > > > > TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
                                                            > > > >
                                                            > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
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                                                            > > > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE
                                                            > > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
                                                            > > YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT
                                                            > > THE "OWNER" AND
                                                            > > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP
                                                            > > SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
                                                            > > FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,
                                                            > > CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
                                                            > > DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR
                                                            > > LOSS OF PROFITS,
                                                            > > GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN
                                                            > > IF THE "OWNER" AND
                                                            > > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP
                                                            > > HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
                                                            > > POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i)
                                                            > > THE USE OR THE INABILITY
                                                            > > TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
                                                            > > UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
                                                            > > ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii)
                                                            > > STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
                                                            > > THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO
                                                            > > GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
                                                            > > MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO
                                                            > > GROUP.
                                                            > >
                                                            > === message truncated ===
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
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                                                            > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
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                                                            --
                                                            -------------------------------------
                                                            regards, mehrdad
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