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Re: [Digital BW] FS

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  • Julian Thomas
    Yes - although there are other rips that work. The strength of the cone system, for me, lies in the profiles - FS gives identical prints at a fraction of the
    Message 1 of 29 , Dec 1, 2001
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      Yes - although there are other rips that work. The strength of the cone
      system, for me, lies in the profiles - FS gives identical prints at a
      fraction of the cost. Whether I'll buy the complete kit though ... maybe
      Cone will sell just the software?

      Julian
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: <toomagenta@...>
      To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 4:40 AM
      Subject: Re: [Digital BW] FS


      > In a message dated 11/30/2001 5:14:05 PM Eastern Standard Time,
      > julianthomas@... writes:
      >
      > << My next purchases will be a
      > better mf scanner and a 7000/7500 with some kind of RIP and FS inks. >>
      > Are you considering the Cone software?
      > George J Kunze
      >
      >
      > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
      other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
      >
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
      >
      > Please follow these basic guidelines:
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    • Steadman Uhlich
      IF I were Jon Cone I would not sell just the software given all the variables out there...it is important to have a system (paper/software/ink) that works
      Message 2 of 29 , Dec 1, 2001
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        IF I were Jon Cone I would not sell "just the software" given all the variables out there...it is important to have a system (paper/software/ink) that works for most people...and Piezography System works very well for most people (me included)...if you let people change too many of the variables (unsupported papers for instance...or someone elses cheap ink) then you would open up a can of worms...and potential for customers to complain and complain....and point fingers at the "software" (the most expensive part of the equation?) as causing the problem.

        I think his "turnkey" system with a broad range of supported and profiled papers (many available from Inkjetmall) is the smart way to go...if I were in his shoes running that business that is what I would do too.

        Steadman
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Julian Thomas
        To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 3:32 AM
        Subject: Re: [Digital BW] FS


        Yes - although there are other rips that work. The strength of the cone
        system, for me, lies in the profiles - FS gives identical prints at a
        fraction of the cost. Whether I'll buy the complete kit though ... maybe
        Cone will sell just the software?

        Julian
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: <toomagenta@...>
        To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 4:40 AM
        Subject: Re: [Digital BW] FS


        > In a message dated 11/30/2001 5:14:05 PM Eastern Standard Time,
        > julianthomas@... writes:
        >
        > << My next purchases will be a
        > better mf scanner and a 7000/7500 with some kind of RIP and FS inks. >>
        > Are you considering the Cone software?
        > George J Kunze
        >
        >
        > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
        other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
        >
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
        >
        > Please follow these basic guidelines:
        > - Include your full name with your message.
        > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
        > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
        them short.
        > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
        > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
        > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
        > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
        resources on the homepage.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >
        >


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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • toomagenta@aol.com
        In a message dated 12/1/2001 4:31:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, julianthomas@terra.es writes:
        Message 3 of 29 , Dec 1, 2001
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          In a message dated 12/1/2001 4:31:50 AM Eastern Standard Time,
          julianthomas@... writes:

          << there are other rips that work. The strength of the cone
          system, for me, lies in the profiles - FS gives identical prints at a
          fraction of the cost. >>
          Thanks for the response. I don't know much about rips and I've been told they
          are mainly for press work. I do use the Piezo in my 1160 with the Cone
          software and I love it. I just bought a 7000 for color, and haven't decided
          what ink to install. I was hoping for the Color Cone pigs, but....
          Anyway, I find it interesting that you would consider a software other than
          Cone's to run the FS. May one infer that a powerful enough RIP can run the FS
          inks and get them to look as good as the Piezo driver? Can that same rip be
          used on another machine to drive a color system?
          Thanks again,
          George J Kunze
        • Julian Thomas
          yeah I agree that commercially the software on its own isn t viable. But this is why I describe IJM as the Microsoft of the ink biz. A great box of tricks that
          Message 4 of 29 , Dec 1, 2001
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            yeah I agree that commercially the software on its own isn't viable. But
            this is why I describe IJM as the Microsoft of the ink biz. A great box of
            tricks that causes problems for some people, but not for all.
            Philosophically though I prefer Linux.

            Julian
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Steadman Uhlich" <steadmanuhlich@...>
            To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 3:09 PM
            Subject: Re: [Digital BW] FS


            > IF I were Jon Cone I would not sell "just the software" given all the
            variables out there...it is important to have a system (paper/software/ink)
            that works for most people...and Piezography System works very well for most
            people (me included)...if you let people change too many of the variables
            (unsupported papers for instance...or someone elses cheap ink) then you
            would open up a can of worms...and potential for customers to complain and
            complain....and point fingers at the "software" (the most expensive part of
            the equation?) as causing the problem.
            >
            > I think his "turnkey" system with a broad range of supported and profiled
            papers (many available from Inkjetmall) is the smart way to go...if I were
            in his shoes running that business that is what I would do too.
            >
            > Steadman
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: Julian Thomas
            > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 3:32 AM
            > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] FS
            >
            >
            > Yes - although there are other rips that work. The strength of the cone
            > system, for me, lies in the profiles - FS gives identical prints at a
            > fraction of the cost. Whether I'll buy the complete kit though ...
            maybe
            > Cone will sell just the software?
            >
            > Julian
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: <toomagenta@...>
            > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 4:40 AM
            > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] FS
            >
            >
            > > In a message dated 11/30/2001 5:14:05 PM Eastern Standard Time,
            > > julianthomas@... writes:
            > >
            > > << My next purchases will be a
            > > better mf scanner and a 7000/7500 with some kind of RIP and FS inks.
            >>
            > > Are you considering the Cone software?
            > > George J Kunze
            > >
            > >
            > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls
            and
            > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
            > >
            > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
            > >
            > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
            > > - Include your full name with your message.
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            > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
            keep
            > them short.
            > > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
            header.
            > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
            "flames."
            > > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
            > > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
            various
            > resources on the homepage.
            > >
            > >
            > >
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            http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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            > >
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            "flames."
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            resources on the homepage.
            >
            >
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            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
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            >
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
            >
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          • Julian Thomas
            Cone Piezo24 uses a RIP. If you are printing big prints on a large format printer you really need a printer dedicated to the printer. Also it has benefits in
            Message 5 of 29 , Dec 1, 2001
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              Cone Piezo24 uses a RIP. If you are printing big prints on a large format
              printer you really need a printer dedicated to the printer. Also it has
              benefits in allowing multiple smaller prints to be on a roll of paper. The
              cone rip benefits from the profiles. However, I gues that if you use only
              one or two kinds of paper, icq profile could be custom made. BTW FS really
              is pretty close to ppiezo inks, slightly cooler, and you need to do a slight
              curve action to reduce contrast on files done for piezo inks, but once you
              have the monitor working space set up it is plug n play. The downside is
              that you can't then moan to IJM tech support for problems! You pays yer
              money and takes yer choice!

              Julian
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: <toomagenta@...>
              To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 5:00 PM
              Subject: Re: [Digital BW] FS


              > In a message dated 12/1/2001 4:31:50 AM Eastern Standard Time,
              > julianthomas@... writes:
              >
              > << there are other rips that work. The strength of the cone
              > system, for me, lies in the profiles - FS gives identical prints at a
              > fraction of the cost. >>
              > Thanks for the response. I don't know much about rips and I've been told
              they
              > are mainly for press work. I do use the Piezo in my 1160 with the Cone
              > software and I love it. I just bought a 7000 for color, and haven't
              decided
              > what ink to install. I was hoping for the Color Cone pigs, but....
              > Anyway, I find it interesting that you would consider a software other
              than
              > Cone's to run the FS. May one infer that a powerful enough RIP can run the
              FS
              > inks and get them to look as good as the Piezo driver? Can that same rip
              be
              > used on another machine to drive a color system?
              > Thanks again,
              > George J Kunze
              >
              >
              > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
              other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
              >
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
              >
              > Please follow these basic guidelines:
              > - Include your full name with your message.
              > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
              > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
              them short.
              > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
              > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
              > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
              > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
              resources on the homepage.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
              >
            • spdolha@cadeon.com
              That s like saying that people complain to Adobe about results with different colour inks and papers when using Photoshop with ICC profiles - not likely.
              Message 6 of 29 , Dec 1, 2001
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                That's like saying that people complain to Adobe about results with
                different colour inks and papers when using Photoshop with ICC
                profiles - not likely. Customers only complain when a vendor's
                technical support can not give clear solutions to problems or point
                people at the reasons for the problems.

                My feeling is that the Piezo software could become an industry
                standard by releasing the specification for the ICQ curves - just
                like ICC is a standard today. Perhaps they could license the ICQ
                spec to other ink and paper vendors to allow the entire industry to
                innovate and in fact expand on the sales of the Piezo software.
                This also lets the market determine which inksets and papers rise to
                the top - and if Piezo gives the best results, the market is quite
                capable of determining that. There are many historical examples of
                restricted market share resulting from not opening up to standards.

                I think opening up the Piezo software would actually increase sales
                and expand the market for Cone.

                Regards,
                Steve Dolha

                --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Steadman Uhlich"
                <steadmanuhlich@k...> wrote:
                > IF I were Jon Cone I would not sell "just the software" given all
                the variables out there...it is important to have a system
                (paper/software/ink) that works for most people...and Piezography
                System works very well for most people (me included)...if you let
                people change too many of the variables (unsupported papers for
                instance...or someone elses cheap ink) then you would open up a can
                of worms...and potential for customers to complain and
                complain....and point fingers at the "software" (the most expensive
                part of the equation?) as causing the problem.
                >
                > I think his "turnkey" system with a broad range of supported and
                profiled papers (many available from Inkjetmall) is the smart way to
                go...if I were in his shoes running that business that is what I
                would do too.
                >
                > Steadman
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: Julian Thomas
                > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
                > Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 3:32 AM
                > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] FS
                >
                >
                > Yes - although there are other rips that work. The strength of
                the cone
                > system, for me, lies in the profiles - FS gives identical prints
                at a
                > fraction of the cost. Whether I'll buy the complete kit
                though ... maybe
                > Cone will sell just the software?
                >
                > Julian
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: <toomagenta@a...>
                > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
                > Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 4:40 AM
                > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] FS
                >
                >
                > > In a message dated 11/30/2001 5:14:05 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                > > julianthomas@t... writes:
                > >
                > > << My next purchases will be a
                > > better mf scanner and a 7000/7500 with some kind of RIP and
                FS inks. >>
                > > Are you considering the Cone software?
                > > George J Kunze
                > >
                > >
                > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
                Polls and
                > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
                > >
                > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
                > >
                > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
                > > - Include your full name with your message.
                > > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
                > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
                messages to keep
                > them short.
                > > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the
                subject header.
                > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks
                or "flames."
                > > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
                > > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and
                the various
                > resources on the homepage.
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                > ADVERTISEMENT
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
                Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page
                is at:
                >
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
                >
                > Please follow these basic guidelines:
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                > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
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                > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the
                subject header.
                > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks
                or "flames."
                > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
                > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
                various resources on the homepage.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                Service.
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                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • flacita33@hotmail.com
                I agree. I think that most of those who would opt for just the Piezo software in all likelihood would not be going into the situation blind. They would
                Message 7 of 29 , Dec 1, 2001
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                  I agree. I think that most of those who would opt for just the Piezo
                  software in all likelihood would not be going into the situation
                  blind. They would understand that the software is optimized to work
                  with the Piezo system as whole. This point could also be made clear
                  in marketing the software. Perhaps the "turnkey solution" is the way
                  to go, but why not offer a choice? The only reason I see for hard-
                  bundling the software with ink, etc. is to enforce consumption of
                  propriatory consumables. This may turn out to be a strategy with
                  diminishing returns.

                  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., spdolha@c... wrote:
                  > That's like saying that people complain to Adobe about results with
                  > different colour inks and papers when using Photoshop with ICC
                  > profiles - not likely. Customers only complain when a vendor's
                  > technical support can not give clear solutions to problems or point
                  > people at the reasons for the problems.
                  >
                  > My feeling is that the Piezo software could become an industry
                  > standard by releasing the specification for the ICQ curves - just
                  > like ICC is a standard today. Perhaps they could license the ICQ
                  > spec to other ink and paper vendors to allow the entire industry to
                  > innovate and in fact expand on the sales of the Piezo software.
                  > This also lets the market determine which inksets and papers rise
                  to
                  > the top - and if Piezo gives the best results, the market is quite
                  > capable of determining that. There are many historical examples of
                  > restricted market share resulting from not opening up to standards.
                  >
                  > I think opening up the Piezo software would actually increase sales
                  > and expand the market for Cone.
                  >
                  > Regards,
                  > Steve Dolha
                  >
                  > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Steadman Uhlich"
                  > <steadmanuhlich@k...> wrote:
                  > > IF I were Jon Cone I would not sell "just the software" given all
                  > the variables out there...it is important to have a system
                  > (paper/software/ink) that works for most people...and Piezography
                  > System works very well for most people (me included)...if you let
                  > people change too many of the variables (unsupported papers for
                  > instance...or someone elses cheap ink) then you would open up a
                  can
                  > of worms...and potential for customers to complain and
                  > complain....and point fingers at the "software" (the most expensive
                  > part of the equation?) as causing the problem.
                  > >
                  > > I think his "turnkey" system with a broad range of supported and
                  > profiled papers (many available from Inkjetmall) is the smart way
                  to
                  > go...if I were in his shoes running that business that is what I
                  > would do too.
                  > >
                  > > Steadman
                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > From: Julian Thomas
                  > > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
                  > > Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 3:32 AM
                  > > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] FS
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Yes - although there are other rips that work. The strength of
                  > the cone
                  > > system, for me, lies in the profiles - FS gives identical
                  prints
                  > at a
                  > > fraction of the cost. Whether I'll buy the complete kit
                  > though ... maybe
                  > > Cone will sell just the software?
                  > >
                  > > Julian
                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > From: <toomagenta@a...>
                  > > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
                  > > Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 4:40 AM
                  > > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] FS
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > > In a message dated 11/30/2001 5:14:05 PM Eastern Standard
                  Time,
                  > > > julianthomas@t... writes:
                  > > >
                  > > > << My next purchases will be a
                  > > > better mf scanner and a 7000/7500 with some kind of RIP and
                  > FS inks. >>
                  > > > Are you considering the Cone software?
                  > > > George J Kunze
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files,
                  Bookmarks,
                  > Polls and
                  > > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
                  > > >
                  > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
                  > > >
                  > > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
                  > > > - Include your full name with your message.
                  > > > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
                  > > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
                  > messages to keep
                  > > them short.
                  > > > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the
                  > subject header.
                  > > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks
                  > or "flames."
                  > > > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
                  > > > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and
                  > the various
                  > > resources on the homepage.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                  > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                  > > ADVERTISEMENT
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
                  > Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page
                  > is at:
                  > >
                  > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
                  > >
                  > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
                  > > - Include your full name with your message.
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                  > messages to keep them short.
                  > > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the
                  > subject header.
                  > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks
                  > or "flames."
                  > > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
                  > > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and
                  the
                  > various resources on the homepage.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
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                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Michael J. Kravit
                  Julian Thomas wrote: ...BTW FS really is pretty close to ppiezo inks, slightly cooler, and you need to do a slight curve action to reduce
                  Message 8 of 29 , Dec 1, 2001
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                    "Julian Thomas" <julianthomas@t...> wrote:
                    ...BTW FS really is pretty close to ppiezo inks, slightly cooler, and
                    you need to do a slight curve action to reduce contrast on files done
                    for piezo inks, but once you have the monitor working space set up it
                    is plug n play."

                    Actually from testing done by a number of well placed experts (sound
                    like a political spin) the MIS FS inks print with a 1 stop density
                    loss using the Piezo Driver and a 1-1/2 stop loss in contrast.

                    This should be easily fixable either in the ink formulation or as you
                    suggest in using an adjustment curve.

                    When working on new files I find this to not be an issue. But when
                    printing old files that were created for Piezo, the density loss
                    becomes evident so I have to create a second file to print with the
                    MIS FS inks.

                    A commercial RIP that has ICC/ICM profiles for papers and inks should
                    take away this problem. That is the biggest difference between a
                    professional RIP and the Piezo system. With the Piezography system
                    you are dependent on IJM to profile your papers and provide you with
                    the profiles. On an open RIP, you can have almost any profiling
                    service profile your inks and papers as printed on YOUR printer and
                    get accurate profiles.

                    The plug and play aspect of the Piezo system is really very
                    convenient and a big plus. Right now the Pro version of the Piezo RIP
                    had new profiles for almost everyone of the newest papers on the
                    market. I suspect that Cone will make them available for the Pulg-In
                    versions of the software very shortly.

                    Mike
                  • Michael J. Kravit
                    That is pretty much my point.... Open teh system and let people profile their inks and papers and share the info...this would make the system much more
                    Message 9 of 29 , Dec 1, 2001
                    • 0 Attachment
                      That is pretty much my point....

                      Open teh system and let people profile their inks and papers and
                      share the info...this would make the system much more valuable IMO.

                      So with that in mind, I have received a demo of the ImagePrint 4.0
                      Software which does exactly that. In fact, the developer will
                      initially profile paper/ink combinations should you request them.

                      Mike

                      --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., flacita33@h... wrote:
                      > I agree. I think that most of those who would opt for just the
                      Piezo
                      > software in all likelihood would not be going into the situation
                      > blind. They would understand that the software is optimized to work
                      > with the Piezo system as whole. This point could also be made clear
                      > in marketing the software. Perhaps the "turnkey solution" is the
                      way
                      > to go, but why not offer a choice? The only reason I see for hard-
                      > bundling the software with ink, etc. is to enforce consumption of
                      > propriatory consumables. This may turn out to be a strategy with
                      > diminishing returns.
                      >
                      > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., spdolha@c... wrote:
                      > > That's like saying that people complain to Adobe about results
                      with
                      > > different colour inks and papers when using Photoshop with ICC
                      > > profiles - not likely. Customers only complain when a vendor's
                      > > technical support can not give clear solutions to problems or
                      point
                      > > people at the reasons for the problems.
                      > >
                      > > My feeling is that the Piezo software could become an industry
                      > > standard by releasing the specification for the ICQ curves - just
                      > > like ICC is a standard today. Perhaps they could license the ICQ
                      > > spec to other ink and paper vendors to allow the entire industry
                      to
                      > > innovate and in fact expand on the sales of the Piezo software.
                      > > This also lets the market determine which inksets and papers rise
                      > to
                      > > the top - and if Piezo gives the best results, the market is
                      quite
                      > > capable of determining that. There are many historical examples
                      of
                      > > restricted market share resulting from not opening up to
                      standards.
                      > >
                      > > I think opening up the Piezo software would actually increase
                      sales
                      > > and expand the market for Cone.
                      > >
                      > > Regards,
                      > > Steve Dolha
                      > >
                      > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Steadman Uhlich"
                      > > <steadmanuhlich@k...> wrote:
                      > > > IF I were Jon Cone I would not sell "just the software" given
                      all
                      > > the variables out there...it is important to have a system
                      > > (paper/software/ink) that works for most people...and Piezography
                      > > System works very well for most people (me included)...if you let
                      > > people change too many of the variables (unsupported papers for
                      > > instance...or someone elses cheap ink) then you would open up a
                      > can
                      > > of worms...and potential for customers to complain and
                      > > complain....and point fingers at the "software" (the most
                      expensive
                      > > part of the equation?) as causing the problem.
                      > > >
                      > > > I think his "turnkey" system with a broad range of supported
                      and
                      > > profiled papers (many available from Inkjetmall) is the smart way
                      > to
                      > > go...if I were in his shoes running that business that is what I
                      > > would do too.
                      > > >
                      > > > Steadman
                      > > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > > From: Julian Thomas
                      > > > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
                      > > > Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 3:32 AM
                      > > > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] FS
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Yes - although there are other rips that work. The strength
                      of
                      > > the cone
                      > > > system, for me, lies in the profiles - FS gives identical
                      > prints
                      > > at a
                      > > > fraction of the cost. Whether I'll buy the complete kit
                      > > though ... maybe
                      > > > Cone will sell just the software?
                      > > >
                      > > > Julian
                      > > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > > From: <toomagenta@a...>
                      > > > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
                      > > > Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 4:40 AM
                      > > > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] FS
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > > In a message dated 11/30/2001 5:14:05 PM Eastern Standard
                      > Time,
                      > > > > julianthomas@t... writes:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > << My next purchases will be a
                      > > > > better mf scanner and a 7000/7500 with some kind of RIP
                      and
                      > > FS inks. >>
                      > > > > Are you considering the Cone software?
                      > > > > George J Kunze
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files,
                      > Bookmarks,
                      > > Polls and
                      > > > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is
                      at:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
                      > > > > - Include your full name with your message.
                      > > > > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
                      > > > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
                      > > messages to keep
                      > > > them short.
                      > > > > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the
                      > > subject header.
                      > > > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal
                      attacks
                      > > or "flames."
                      > > > > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
                      > > > > - Before posting a question, search the message archives
                      and
                      > > the various
                      > > > resources on the homepage.
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                      > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                      > > > ADVERTISEMENT
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files,
                      Bookmarks,
                      > > Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The
                      page
                      > > is at:
                      > > >
                      > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
                      > > >
                      > > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
                      > > > - Include your full name with your message.
                      > > > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
                      > > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
                      > > messages to keep them short.
                      > > > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the
                      > > subject header.
                      > > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks
                      > > or "flames."
                      > > > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
                      > > > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and
                      > the
                      > > various resources on the homepage.
                      > > >
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                      > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                      > > Service.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Paul Roark
                      ... I ve asked a couple a people to send me scans of 21-step test prints using FS inks. This may be the issue that I m looking at right now. What I ve found
                      Message 10 of 29 , Dec 1, 2001
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Julian Thomas <julianthomas@t...> wrote:
                        >...BTW FS really is pretty close to Piezo inks, slightly cooler, and
                        >you need to do a slight curve action to reduce contrast on files done
                        >for Piezo inks, but once you have the monitor working space set up it
                        >is plug n play."


                        Mike Kravit <mkravit@...> wrote:
                        >Actually ...the MIS FS inks print with a 1 stop density
                        >loss using the Piezo Driver and a 1-1/2 stop loss in contrast.

                        I've asked a couple a people to send me scans of 21-step test prints using
                        FS inks. This may be the issue that I'm looking at right now. What I've
                        found is that the density of the Piezo inks varies. The FS inks match the
                        densities of many who used Piezo in a CIS -- like I used to. However, my
                        experience is that Piezo out of a new cartridge that I've filled is darker.
                        That is, the CIS had the effect of reducing the densities of the two
                        lightest inks relative to the carts. The CIS Piezo was always more green
                        also.

                        So, to finalize my neutral mix for the Piezo driver, I want to be sure that
                        I'm optimizing it for that driver. I'm not sure the FS inks quite hit the
                        mark.

                        Bottom line, could some FS-Piezo driver users please e-mail to me scans of
                        some 21-step test files. (8-bit, 72 dpi, jpeg level 8 or above) I have a
                        density target that seems to work better than FS in my 1160-Piezo outfit,
                        but I would like to see if other FS users are getting the same steps I see.

                        Paul
                        http://www.PaulRoark.com
                      • Nij
                        Steve, I actually disagree - having worked in support I have a little experience with the c**p that some departments have to put up with, and equally, also
                        Message 11 of 29 , Dec 1, 2001
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Steve,

                          I actually disagree - having worked in support I have a little experience
                          with the c**p that some departments have to put up with, and equally, also
                          being a user, I'm familiar with what some of them put out ;) [I'm not
                          talking about IJM here, by the way, my last awful-support experience was
                          McAffee].

                          Here's my example: Take a look at the Epson-leben list, or the Epson 9000
                          Yahoo group. Two groups which I browse and occasionally post on. There is
                          FREQUENT discussion, confusion, dissatisfaction, anger, frustration about
                          colour management with those 'oh-so-simple' ICC profiles. The problem seems
                          to be that Adobe do not _exactly_ describe how Photoshop (for example) sends
                          out files (to a printer) depending on settings. Epson do not exactly
                          describe how it picks up profiles depending on printer / printer driver /
                          which buttons are clicked, etc etc etc. ie ICC is VERY MUCH implementation
                          dependent and frankly a nightmare as such. ANY support department in this
                          environment has to ask a zillion questions to find out where the problem
                          lies, but let's face it, Adobe tech support probably has very little
                          interest in helping Epson to fix a driver problem, and vice versa. A
                          standard complaint is "It's funny how the problem is never the fault of the
                          person you're talking to".

                          And what are we now seeing? Well, as far as I can tell we are seeing, or
                          about to see, a whole tranche of RIPs or RIP-like products that are going to
                          enable you to isolate the colour management of printing with ICC from
                          Windows installs of new products, odd-sounding buttons on Epson printer
                          driver software, etc. If I am right, we will see alot less colour management
                          problems caused by installations that <oops> wiped out your favourite
                          profile, but we will CONTINUE to see problems by chnges in ink, paper
                          formulations, quality of profiles, quality of printer, degraded printers due
                          to 'natural' maintenance requirements, etc.

                          I fear that if Cone were to open up the ICQ profiles, we sure would get more
                          papers and inks supported, and that would be fantastic - BUT we would also
                          find a new job-description in the sigs on this list "Greyscale Management
                          Consultant" - the people who could examine and test (potentially) everything
                          in the chain from software output to profiles to ink densities and advise
                          you and fix your problems. Without that person, IJM would blame the
                          third-party ink or ICQ supplier, the ink m'fer would blame the ICQ supplier
                          or Piezo software, etc etc etc

                          In fact, we culd say that this group is a "Greyscale Management Group",
                          but...

                          FWIW, I do agree that opening things up could result in higher sales or
                          whatever for software, and I do believe that would be good. But it is only
                          good if you can somehow work it such that the resultant problems do not
                          happen. I don't believe anyone can do that, so in the mean-time, I am happy
                          to be one person telling my supplier that there is 'demand' for cheaper ink,
                          'demand' for toning products, 'demand' for a profile for 'xxx' paper and so
                          on. In the mean-time, some manufacturers can if they wish reverse engineer
                          ink tones to make their own ink... and the Piezo driver has even been used
                          by people using Spectratone inks etc (don't know how well that would work in
                          through testing, but I was sent a very nice picture using this mix).

                          Apologies for the long post!

                          Best,
                          Nij



                          > From: spdolha@... [mailto:spdolha@...]
                          > That's like saying that people complain to Adobe about results with
                          > different colour inks and papers when using Photoshop with ICC
                          > profiles - not likely. Customers only complain when a vendor's
                          > technical support can not give clear solutions to problems or point
                          > people at the reasons for the problems.
                          >
                          > My feeling is that the Piezo software could become an industry
                          > standard by releasing the specification for the ICQ curves - just
                          > like ICC is a standard today. Perhaps they could license the ICQ
                          > spec to other ink and paper vendors to allow the entire industry to
                          > innovate and in fact expand on the sales of the Piezo software.
                          > This also lets the market determine which inksets and papers rise to
                          > the top - and if Piezo gives the best results, the market is quite
                          > capable of determining that. There are many historical examples of
                          > restricted market share resulting from not opening up to standards.
                          >
                          > I think opening up the Piezo software would actually increase sales
                          > and expand the market for Cone.
                          >
                          > Regards,
                          > Steve Dolha
                          >
                          > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Steadman Uhlich"
                          > <steadmanuhlich@k...> wrote:
                          > > IF I were Jon Cone I would not sell "just the software" given all
                          > the variables out there...it is important to have a system
                          > (paper/software/ink) that works for most people...and Piezography
                          > System works very well for most people (me included)...if you let
                          > people change too many of the variables (unsupported papers for
                          > instance...or someone elses cheap ink) then you would open up a can
                          > of worms...and potential for customers to complain and
                          > complain....and point fingers at the "software" (the most expensive
                          > part of the equation?) as causing the problem.
                          > >
                          > > I think his "turnkey" system with a broad range of supported and
                          > profiled papers (many available from Inkjetmall) is the smart way to
                          > go...if I were in his shoes running that business that is what I
                          > would do too.
                        • Julian Thomas
                          Paul did my wedge steps get through? Julian
                          Message 12 of 29 , Dec 2, 2001
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Paul did my wedge steps get through?

                            Julian
                          • mwgfoto
                            Where would a person get a copy of this ImagePrint 4.0 demo? ... work ... clear ... just ... ICQ ... industry ... software. ... rise ... examples ...
                            Message 13 of 29 , Dec 16, 2001
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Where would a person get a copy of this ImagePrint 4.0 demo?



                              --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Michael J. Kravit"
                              <mkravit@k...> wrote:
                              > That is pretty much my point....
                              >
                              > Open teh system and let people profile their inks and papers and
                              > share the info...this would make the system much more valuable IMO.
                              >
                              > So with that in mind, I have received a demo of the ImagePrint 4.0
                              > Software which does exactly that. In fact, the developer will
                              > initially profile paper/ink combinations should you request them.
                              >
                              > Mike
                              >
                              > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., flacita33@h... wrote:
                              > > I agree. I think that most of those who would opt for just the
                              > Piezo
                              > > software in all likelihood would not be going into the situation
                              > > blind. They would understand that the software is optimized to
                              work
                              > > with the Piezo system as whole. This point could also be made
                              clear
                              > > in marketing the software. Perhaps the "turnkey solution" is the
                              > way
                              > > to go, but why not offer a choice? The only reason I see for hard-
                              > > bundling the software with ink, etc. is to enforce consumption of
                              > > propriatory consumables. This may turn out to be a strategy with
                              > > diminishing returns.
                              > >
                              > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., spdolha@c... wrote:
                              > > > That's like saying that people complain to Adobe about results
                              > with
                              > > > different colour inks and papers when using Photoshop with ICC
                              > > > profiles - not likely. Customers only complain when a vendor's
                              > > > technical support can not give clear solutions to problems or
                              > point
                              > > > people at the reasons for the problems.
                              > > >
                              > > > My feeling is that the Piezo software could become an industry
                              > > > standard by releasing the specification for the ICQ curves -
                              just
                              > > > like ICC is a standard today. Perhaps they could license the
                              ICQ
                              > > > spec to other ink and paper vendors to allow the entire
                              industry
                              > to
                              > > > innovate and in fact expand on the sales of the Piezo
                              software.
                              > > > This also lets the market determine which inksets and papers
                              rise
                              > > to
                              > > > the top - and if Piezo gives the best results, the market is
                              > quite
                              > > > capable of determining that. There are many historical
                              examples
                              > of
                              > > > restricted market share resulting from not opening up to
                              > standards.
                              > > >
                              > > > I think opening up the Piezo software would actually increase
                              > sales
                              > > > and expand the market for Cone.
                              > > >
                              > > > Regards,
                              > > > Steve Dolha
                              > > >
                              > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Steadman Uhlich"
                              > > > <steadmanuhlich@k...> wrote:
                              > > > > IF I were Jon Cone I would not sell "just the software" given
                              > all
                              > > > the variables out there...it is important to have a system
                              > > > (paper/software/ink) that works for most people...and
                              Piezography
                              > > > System works very well for most people (me included)...if you
                              let
                              > > > people change too many of the variables (unsupported papers for
                              > > > instance...or someone elses cheap ink) then you would open up
                              a
                              > > can
                              > > > of worms...and potential for customers to complain and
                              > > > complain....and point fingers at the "software" (the most
                              > expensive
                              > > > part of the equation?) as causing the problem.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > I think his "turnkey" system with a broad range of supported
                              > and
                              > > > profiled papers (many available from Inkjetmall) is the smart
                              way
                              > > to
                              > > > go...if I were in his shoes running that business that is what
                              I
                              > > > would do too.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Steadman
                              > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                              > > > > From: Julian Thomas
                              > > > > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
                              > > > > Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 3:32 AM
                              > > > > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] FS
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Yes - although there are other rips that work. The strength
                              > of
                              > > > the cone
                              > > > > system, for me, lies in the profiles - FS gives identical
                              > > prints
                              > > > at a
                              > > > > fraction of the cost. Whether I'll buy the complete kit
                              > > > though ... maybe
                              > > > > Cone will sell just the software?
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Julian
                              > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                              > > > > From: <toomagenta@a...>
                              > > > > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
                              > > > > Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 4:40 AM
                              > > > > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] FS
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > > In a message dated 11/30/2001 5:14:05 PM Eastern Standard
                              > > Time,
                              > > > > > julianthomas@t... writes:
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > << My next purchases will be a
                              > > > > > better mf scanner and a 7000/7500 with some kind of RIP
                              > and
                              > > > FS inks. >>
                              > > > > > Are you considering the Cone software?
                              > > > > > George J Kunze
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files,
                              > > Bookmarks,
                              > > > Polls and
                              > > > > other resources as they are often being updated. The page
                              is
                              > at:
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
                              > > > > > - Include your full name with your message.
                              > > > > > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
                              > > > > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
                              > > > messages to keep
                              > > > > them short.
                              > > > > > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the
                              > > > subject header.
                              > > > > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal
                              > attacks
                              > > > or "flames."
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                              > > > > > - Before posting a question, search the message archives
                              > and
                              > > > the various
                              > > > > resources on the homepage.
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                              > > > > >
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                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                              > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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                              > > > > ADVERTISEMENT
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                              > > > >
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                              > > > >
                              > > > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files,
                              > Bookmarks,
                              > > > Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The
                              > page
                              > > > is at:
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                              > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
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                              attacks
                              > > > or "flames."
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                              and
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