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7800 Eboni-6 plus HP neutral/cool gray ink K3 setup

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  • Paul
    I have modified my Epson 7800 setup to include not only the full Eboni-6 inkset but also to have HP Z3100/3200 neutral/cool pigments in it. In 2010 I used a
    Message 1 of 10 , Dec 3, 2012
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      I have modified my Epson 7800 setup to include not only the full Eboni-6 inkset but also to have HP Z3100/3200 neutral/cool pigments in it. In 2010 I used a somewhat similar arrangement, and for the 1400 I've successfully used a combination of Eboni-6 and HP (or MIS UT14 cool pigments) for some some years.

      The write-up of the 7800 setup for 2013 is at
      http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/7800-EbHP-2013.pdf

      There were a couple of surprises so far as to which papers would respond best to an Eboni-6 and HP blended profile (QTR dual profile and slider adjustments). Red River Aurora Natural and H. Bamboo did much better than I expected.

      The combination of Eboni-6 and the HP pigs brings a wide variety of papers within the near neutral range that I prefer. I doubt there is any ink setup that can match the expected light fastness and economy of this approach, which should be feasible on all Epson K3 printers.

      Profiles for the 7800 have been posted. Most are for QTR, but the Epson driver is also compatible with this setup and a curve that gives a 50-50 blend of Eboni-6 and the HP pigments should be able to make ICCs for many matte papers.

      Paul
      www.PaulRoark.com
    • Paul
      I updated -- mostly correcting typos -- the PDF on my current 7800 Eboni-6 plus HP neutral pigment setup. I also added a link to my text files that are the
      Message 2 of 10 , Dec 5, 2012
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        I updated -- mostly correcting typos -- the PDF on my current 7800 Eboni-6 plus HP neutral pigment setup. I also added a link to my text files that are the outputs from the DataColor Spyder3Print spectro readings for the papers profiled. They include the Eboni-6 and 50-50 blended profiles.

        The PDF is at http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/7800-EbHP-2013.pdf

        At the end of the PDF I have an Appendix that looks at the HP neutral 50% patch performance of some of the tests at http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/ . It might be of interest to those who want a neutral ink that seems to have handled the differential fading issue the best. The 50% neutral test patches -- RGB and GS -- presumably have some of the color HP inks in them also. So, this is obviously not a perfect view of how the separate neutral inks will perform. But, given the reality of incomplete information, the tests of the HP neutral patches are still impressive.

        Paul
        www.PaulRoark.com
      • Ernst Dinkla
        ... Paul, There will be no color HP inks in the patches. Not if the profiling has been done on the printer itself. The papers are almost neutral, the PK ink
        Message 3 of 10 , Dec 6, 2012
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          On 12/05/2012 07:12 PM, Paul wrote:

          > At the end of the PDF I have an Appendix that looks at the HP neutral
          > 50% patch performance of some of the tests at
          > http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/ . It might be of interest to
          > those who want a neutral ink that seems to have handled the
          > differential fading issue the best. The 50% neutral test patches --
          > RGB and GS -- presumably have some of the color HP inks in them also.
          > So, this is obviously not a perfect view of how the separate neutral
          > inks will perform. But, given the reality of incomplete information,
          > the tests of the HP neutral patches are still impressive.
          >
          > Paul www.PaulRoark.com

          Paul,

          There will be no color HP inks in the patches. Not if the profiling has
          been done on the printer itself. The papers are almost neutral, the PK
          ink tends to be slightly cool b -1.6 (Pearl is b 1.6) and the Z3100
          models use an extreme UCR so no composite greys even in color mode. At
          least that is what I observed with Photorag patches under a microscope.
          The test results represent your future (Vivera only) prints too in my
          opinion. What shifts is mainly the paper white itself, L goes up 0.4-1
          DE right away like in most papers, then becomes almost stable, b gets a
          bit warmer in time.

          On the unfaded Photorag patches it is interesting to see the MK patch of
          100% as neutral/warm where the 80% patch is cool, PK taking over there
          on the neutral spine, the lighter patches will be Grey and Light Grey
          ink. From the 80% to paper white the b is crossing the neutral axis, the
          paper white shift in time to warm has the same influence, no color ink
          there and no color ink shift happening in my opinion. MK black does not
          shift either. Pearl uses the PK black + the grey inks + gloss enhancer
          and has no OBA in the paper.

          ColorByte learned something of what HP engineers did with the Z3100
          media presets and made similar ones for the Epson x900 models in ImagePrint:

          http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/the_weakest_link.shtml

          It can go the other way too:
          When I got my HP Z3100 more than 5 years ago I upgraded my Wasatch
          Softrip to drive that printer too. The first thing I noticed was that
          Wasatch had lousy media presets compared to the HP driver. In that case
          the third party driver did a bad job on all kinds of ink mix
          substitutions; black generation, N-color hue substitutions etc. A
          microscope on the prints told enough. The HP driver relied on an extreme
          UCR and also replaced much of the cMmY mixes with RGB inks where
          possible. I noticed much more "metamerism" with the Wasatch prints and a
          higher ink consumption. I also predicted less color stability in
          printing and less fade resistance in time. The Vivera pigments are in
          itself more fade resistant than the Epson UltraChrome HDR inks (yellow
          remains weak) but the HP engineers were clever enough to improve on that
          with the design of the media presets.

          For the Z3200 the UCR approach may be less Spartanic, it will be
          interesting to see whether that is reflected in the Aardenburg tests.


          --
          Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst Dinkla

          http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
          December 2012: 500+ inkjet media paper white spectral plots.
        • Mark
          Folks may also want to take a look specifically at Sample ID# 148 in the Aardenburg test results database. This sample is a very neutral B&W print sample that
          Message 4 of 10 , Dec 6, 2012
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            Folks may also want to take a look specifically at Sample ID# 148 in the Aardenburg test results database. This sample is a very neutral B&W print sample that was printed on a Z3100 in it's grayscale mode on HN photo rag. Presumably, HP's grayscale mode is similar to Epson ABW in maximizing use of the photogray colorants and reducing other colorants to a minimum in order to achieve the desired tint, in this case a very close "pure neutral gray" under D50 illuminant.

            Sample #148 has reached 100 Megalux hours in test, and was due for its 120 Mlux hour update in mid October. Regrettably, the exposure cycle for this batch of samples and a couple of others has been running a few months behind schedule, but the batch finally reaches 120 megalux hours tomorrow. I hope to have the updates posted by the end of next week.

            cheers,
            Mark
            http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

            --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla <e.dinkla@...> wrote:
            >
            > On 12/05/2012 07:12 PM, Paul wrote:
            >
            > > At the end of the PDF I have an Appendix that looks at the HP neutral
            > > 50% patch performance of some of the tests at
            > > http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/ . It might be of interest to
            > > those who want a neutral ink that seems to have handled the
            > > differential fading issue the best. The 50% neutral test patches --
            > > RGB and GS -- presumably have some of the color HP inks in them also.
            > > So, this is obviously not a perfect view of how the separate neutral
            > > inks will perform. But, given the reality of incomplete information,
            > > the tests of the HP neutral patches are still impressive.
            > >
            > > Paul www.PaulRoark.com
            >
            > Paul,
            >
            > There will be no color HP inks in the patches. Not if the profiling has
            > been done on the printer itself. The papers are almost neutral, the PK
            > ink tends to be slightly cool b -1.6 (Pearl is b 1.6) and the Z3100
            > models use an extreme UCR so no composite greys even in color mode. At
            > least that is what I observed with Photorag patches under a microscope.
            > The test results represent your future (Vivera only) prints too in my
            > opinion. What shifts is mainly the paper white itself, L goes up 0.4-1
            > DE right away like in most papers, then becomes almost stable, b gets a
            > bit warmer in time.
            >
            > On the unfaded Photorag patches it is interesting to see the MK patch of
            > 100% as neutral/warm where the 80% patch is cool, PK taking over there
            > on the neutral spine, the lighter patches will be Grey and Light Grey
            > ink. From the 80% to paper white the b is crossing the neutral axis, the
            > paper white shift in time to warm has the same influence, no color ink
            > there and no color ink shift happening in my opinion. MK black does not
            > shift either. Pearl uses the PK black + the grey inks + gloss enhancer
            > and has no OBA in the paper.
            >
            > ColorByte learned something of what HP engineers did with the Z3100
            > media presets and made similar ones for the Epson x900 models in ImagePrint:
            >
            > http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/the_weakest_link.shtml
            >
            > It can go the other way too:
            > When I got my HP Z3100 more than 5 years ago I upgraded my Wasatch
            > Softrip to drive that printer too. The first thing I noticed was that
            > Wasatch had lousy media presets compared to the HP driver. In that case
            > the third party driver did a bad job on all kinds of ink mix
            > substitutions; black generation, N-color hue substitutions etc. A
            > microscope on the prints told enough. The HP driver relied on an extreme
            > UCR and also replaced much of the cMmY mixes with RGB inks where
            > possible. I noticed much more "metamerism" with the Wasatch prints and a
            > higher ink consumption. I also predicted less color stability in
            > printing and less fade resistance in time. The Vivera pigments are in
            > itself more fade resistant than the Epson UltraChrome HDR inks (yellow
            > remains weak) but the HP engineers were clever enough to improve on that
            > with the design of the media presets.
            >
            > For the Z3200 the UCR approach may be less Spartanic, it will be
            > interesting to see whether that is reflected in the Aardenburg tests.
            >
            >
            > --
            > Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst Dinkla
            >
            > http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
            > December 2012: 500+ inkjet media paper white spectral plots.
            >
          • Tony Sleep
            ... No, HP grayscale mode uses only the blacks and gray/s. Colour channels are turned off. There is no control of tint; the tint you get is that native to the
            Message 5 of 10 , Dec 6, 2012
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              On 06/12/2012 15:09, Mark wrote:
              > Presumably, HP's grayscale mode is similar to Epson ABW in maximizing use
              > of the photogray colorants and reducing other colorants to a minimum in
              > order to achieve the desired tint, in this case a very close "pure neutral
              > gray" under D50 illuminant.

              No, HP grayscale mode uses only the blacks and gray/s. Colour channels are
              turned off. There is no control of tint; the tint you get is that native
              to the black and gray inks alone on the particular paper used.

              If you print grayscale in RGB mode then the colour channels are invoked as
              well, but there is no ABW-like adjustment available, tint has to be
              adjusted in PS.
              --
              Regards

              Tony Sleep
              http://tonysleep.co.uk
            • Paul
              ... Thank you Ernst and Tony. I ve corrected that part of the PDF. Paul www.PaulRoark.com
              Message 6 of 10 , Dec 6, 2012
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                >... HP grayscale mode uses only the blacks and gray/s.
                > Colour channels are turned off. ...

                Thank you Ernst and Tony. I've corrected that part of the PDF.

                Paul
                www.PaulRoark.com
              • Tony Sleep
                ... I forgot to mention that HP also have a composite B&W mode, which introduces a little colour into blacks+gray/s printing. It gives better Dmax and tonal
                Message 7 of 10 , Dec 7, 2012
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                  On 06/12/2012 16:35, Tony Sleep wrote:
                  >
                  > No, HP grayscale mode uses only the blacks and gray/s. Colour channels are
                  > turned off. There is no control of tint; the tint you get is that native
                  > to the black and gray inks alone on the particular paper used.
                  >
                  > If you print grayscale in RGB mode then the colour channels are invoked as
                  > well, but there is no ABW-like adjustment available, tint has to be
                  > adjusted in PS.

                  I forgot to mention that HP also have a "composite" B&W mode, which
                  introduces a little colour into blacks+gray/s printing. It gives better
                  Dmax and tonal smoothness with wider paper compatibility (reduced
                  bronzing) than blacks & grays alone. Tint is uncontrollable since there is
                  no ABW functionality. It is quite metameric, and in my limited experience
                  prints are not so much cool but a lurid cyan. Which is why it is so
                  forgettable.

                  --
                  Regards

                  Tony Sleep
                  http://tonysleep.co.uk
                • Ernst Dinkla
                  ... Tony, I think you scrape the driver functions of the Z3100 and B9180 together. I have not seen a composite B&W mode in the Z3100/Z3200 PS3 or PCL3 drivers,
                  Message 8 of 10 , Dec 9, 2012
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                    On 12/07/2012 12:12 PM, Tony Sleep wrote:
                    > On 06/12/2012 16:35, Tony Sleep wrote:
                    >>
                    >> No, HP grayscale mode uses only the blacks and gray/s. Colour channels are
                    >> turned off. There is no control of tint; the tint you get is that native
                    >> to the black and gray inks alone on the particular paper used.
                    >>
                    >> If you print grayscale in RGB mode then the colour channels are invoked as
                    >> well, but there is no ABW-like adjustment available, tint has to be
                    >> adjusted in PS.
                    >
                    > I forgot to mention that HP also have a "composite" B&W mode, which
                    > introduces a little colour into blacks+gray/s printing. It gives better
                    > Dmax and tonal smoothness with wider paper compatibility (reduced
                    > bronzing) than blacks & grays alone. Tint is uncontrollable since there is
                    > no ABW functionality. It is quite metameric, and in my limited experience
                    > prints are not so much cool but a lurid cyan. Which is why it is so
                    > forgettable.
                    >

                    Tony,

                    I think you scrape the driver functions of the Z3100 and B9180 together.
                    I have not seen a composite B&W mode in the Z3100/Z3200 PS3 or PCL3
                    drivers, just an ABW-like grayscale mode with an Advanced Color Settings
                    choice to adjust color tone etc in the B&W print on 3 sections of the
                    tone range. I see a composite + a greyscale B&W mode in the B9180
                    driver, both not offering Advanced Color Settings for adjusting the B&W
                    print. If color mode is chosen in all drivers Z+B then there is an
                    Advanced Color Settings possible with settings on the RGB channels so
                    different to the B&W ACS.

                    Mark has only Z3100-Z3200 Vivera tests if I recall it correctly.

                    --
                    Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst Dinkla

                    http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
                    December 2012: 500+ inkjet media paper white spectral plots.
                  • Tony Sleep
                    ... Correct. I didn t realise we were talking about Z3100/3200. The main point seems to be common to all HP B s & Z s, that the B&W mode only uses blacks and
                    Message 9 of 10 , Dec 9, 2012
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                      On 09/12/2012 16:16, Ernst Dinkla wrote:
                      > I think you scrape the driver functions of the Z3100 and B9180 together.

                      Correct. I didn't realise we were talking about Z3100/3200.

                      The main point seems to be common to all HP B's & Z's, that the B&W mode
                      only uses blacks and gray/s, no colour.

                      If the Z's add ABW-like control to composite mode, good. It's useless
                      without it on the B's (unless you really like cyan).

                      --
                      Regards

                      Tony Sleep
                      http://tonysleep.co.uk
                    • Ernst Dinkla
                      It is a pure greyscale mode on the Zs, if the ACS menu is kept on default no color ink is added, no composite mixes for greys used. Some matte media presets
                      Message 10 of 10 , Dec 9, 2012
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                        It is a pure greyscale mode on the Zs, if the ACS menu is kept on default no color ink is added, no composite mixes for greys used. Some matte media presets use MK + PK + Grey + Light Grey. On a Z3100 it will be linear for a calibrated paper. If you add color in ACS to change the B&W color tone the linearity is lost too, it just adds color ink on top of the grey ink base.

                        Ernst Dinkla op de lei getypt

                        Tony Sleep <TonySleep@...>schreef:


                        >
                        >On 09/12/2012 16:16, Ernst Dinkla wrote:
                        >> I think you scrape the driver functions of the Z3100 and B9180 together.
                        >
                        >Correct. I didn't realise we were talking about Z3100/3200.
                        >
                        >The main point seems to be common to all HP B's & Z's, that the B&W mode
                        >only uses blacks and gray/s, no colour.
                        >
                        >If the Z's add ABW-like control to composite mode, good. It's useless
                        >without it on the B's (unless you really like cyan).
                        >
                        >--
                        >Regards
                        >
                        >Tony Sleep
                        >http://tonysleep.co.uk
                        >
                        >
                        >
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