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Re: [DevilStickForum] Difference between Devil Sticks and Flower sticks.

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  • Seth Golub
    ... I think heavy is misleading, but I d agree with the rest. The devil sticks listed at Serious Juggling range from 150g to 275g. The flower sticks there
    Message 1 of 10 , Jun 25 2:40 PM
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      fiorastar@... writes:

      > Devil Sticks-the "original" game. A heavy wooden dowel that is
      > lathed to be narrow in the center and wide at the ends played with
      > two wooden sticks.

      I think "heavy" is misleading, but I'd agree with the rest.
      The devil sticks listed at Serious Juggling range from 150g to 275g.
      The flower sticks there (Crystal Stix) are 250g-380g.
      Lunastix (which I like) are 120g-190g, with the lighter ones
      specifically marketed at kids. (The standard ones are 180g-190g.)

      Generally, the difference is the shape, and the real difference is in
      the behavior that the shape causes. A flower stick is much more
      stable, slower to change direction (both in spin and roll). Also, a
      good flower stick will have floppy bits on the ends to further reduce
      static rolling resistance (making it easier to keep the stick from
      rolling off your handstick).

      The two styles of stick are good for different things, so which is
      better depends on what you want to do. Flower sticks are generally
      easier, but I find them less versatile. Still, there are plenty of
      things I can do with one and not with the other, and that goes both
      ways.
    • fiorastar@aol.com
      In a message dated 6/25/02 2:45:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time, seth@aigeek.com ... You really should try ours then. They are certainly more stable and slower-or
      Message 2 of 10 , Jun 25 8:10 PM
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        In a message dated 6/25/02 2:45:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time, seth@... writes:


        .  A flower stick is much more
        stable, slower to change direction (both in spin and roll).  Also, a
        good flower stick will have floppy bits on the ends to further reduce
        static rolling resistance (making it easier to keep the stick from
        rolling off your handstick).



        You really should try ours then.  They are certainly more stable and slower-or they can be.  But because they are not made with the floppy ends they can also be very quick (once you get used to the flexibility of the fiberglass and account for it in your moves).  And we LIKE rolling them too!  Why limit your tricks to just ones that don't roll?  That just limits what you can do with them.  So please don't say "a good flower stick will have floppy ends".  We make the original flowerstick and they most certainly do NOT have floppy ends-because floppy ends drag down any movement  you make with them-including "helicopter" type moves-to the point where it is more difficult to keep it going.  Also the floppy ends will wear out relatively quickly if you play with them a lot.

        You should check them out.

        Fiora Starchild
        www.FlowerSticks.com
      • Seth Golub
        ... This is true. People learning with lunastix have a tough time getting a helicopter started, while people learning with a devil stick have a tough time not
        Message 3 of 10 , Jun 25 10:31 PM
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          fiorastar@... writes:

          > floppy ends drag down any movement you make with them-including
          > "helicopter" type moves-to the point where it is more difficult to
          > keep it going.

          This is true. People learning with lunastix have a tough time getting
          a helicopter started, while people learning with a devil stick have a
          tough time not doing a helicopter. But it's really nice to have a stick
          that won't roll if you're trying to do things like a curl. I can do a
          curl with my devil sticks now, but if I didn't have something less rolly
          to learn on, I probably would never have gotten it.


          > Also the floppy ends will wear out relatively quickly if you play
          > with them a lot.

          I haven't found that to be true, but maybe that just means I need to
          use them more. :)
        • Lee Rockenbach
          ... My experience is pretty limited, haveing only played with a couple pairs of homemade devil sticks & only one form of flower sticks. Actually I use a type
          Message 4 of 10 , Jun 25 11:15 PM
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            --- knesmith2001 <Tmpfl@...> wrote:
            > What is the difference between devil and flower
            > sticks?
            > Thanks
            > P.S.
            > Which is better?



            My experience is pretty limited, haveing only played
            with a couple pairs of homemade devil sticks & only
            one form of flower sticks. Actually I use a type of
            'flower' stick called crystal stix, but they look very
            similar.
            Devil sticks are ussually thin in the center &
            slowly widen towards the ends. Flower sticks are a
            uniform width, but have "balls" of leather, cloth,
            foam.... at each end.
            I found that devil sticks are much heavier & require
            more force to play. I also notice that everytime a
            devil sticker plays with my stix, they use way more
            force than required & tend to have a bit of trouble
            slowing down & getting smooth motions.
            I prefer flower style sticks, but they are mostly
            all I know.

            Namaste, Lee



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            I amble to the beat of a diferent drummer...
            Namaste

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          • sauoq
            ... I d also disagree with the assertion that devil sticks were the original game . Flower sticks were most likely the original. Where they actually
            Message 5 of 10 , Jul 1, 2002
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              --- In DevilStickForum@y..., Seth Golub <seth@a...> wrote:
              >
              > fiorastar@a... writes:
              >
              > > Devil Sticks-the "original" game. A heavy wooden dowel that is
              > > lathed to be narrow in the center and wide at the ends played with
              > > two wooden sticks.
              >
              > I think "heavy" is misleading, but I'd agree with the rest.

              I'd also disagree with the assertion that devil sticks were
              the '"original" game'. Flower sticks were most likely the original.
              Where they actually originated is up for debate. It was probably in
              what is now called China but somewhere on the African continent is a
              possibility too. Despite the commercial plug, they weren't first sold
              at Dead shows...

              I use lunastix almost exclusively now. I've owned all of their models
              (including the kid stix) but I prefer their "master" model. It's good
              for slow and fast spinning. I can go from tasmanian devil to slo-mo
              in just a couple helispins.

              Hey fiorastar... I got my first set of sticks from a guy named Craig
              who used to sell them on tour. They were devil sticks. He'd make them
              on his brother's (I think) lathe, wrap 'em in heavy duty rubber
              electrical tape, and decorate them with colored duct tape. Know him?
            • fiorastar@aol.com
              In a message dated 7/1/02 7:01:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time, sauoq@yahoo.com ... We ve actually done quite a bit of research on this-as did our predecessor who
              Message 6 of 10 , Jul 1, 2002
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                In a message dated 7/1/02 7:01:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time, sauoq@... writes:



                I'd also disagree with the assertion that devil sticks were
                the '"original" game'. Flower sticks were most likely the original.
                Where they actually originated is up for debate. It was probably in
                what is now called China but somewhere on the African continent is a
                possibility too.


                We've actually done quite a bit of research on this-as did our predecessor who first designed FlowerSticks.
                China used them for over 5000 years but it is true that something very similar has been found in Africa.  Also the Phillipines-Alaska-South America-pretty much anywhere that some remnant of the original aboriginal (hey that rhymes) peoples remain.  

                My personal theory as a mom is that some tribe living in some cave through the ice age invented them.  The theory goes like this:  Basically stuck in the cave with the entire clan throughout the winter-a mom is trying to cook dinner over the open fire (maybe aurochs or something).  The entire passle of kids comes bouncing around being restless and getting into trouble.  Mom tells them to go play in back of the cave where the old bones are stored.  Voila!  Juggle Sticks!  

                But seriously-the Chinese have had them longest in written history-but that certainly doesn't mean they invented them.  They were an invasive and an exploratory people.  I think they probably took the idea from some group they overtook or met during explorations.  I find it very interesting that similar inventions have been found all over the planet-from about the same time frame.

                >>Despite the commercial plug, they weren't first sold
                at Dead shows...

                That wasn't meant as a commercial plug.  It's very difficult to be one of the makers of these things-especially one of the original makers of the modern version-without mentioning what you make!  We DO make them and have been selling the originator's versions since there were NO other light juggle sticks available on Dead tour.  I never said juggle sticks were first sold at Dead shows.  I SAID......

                Devil sticks are the original design-this means the solid wooden dowel that has been lathed to be narrow at the center and wider at the ends.  These are ancient.  And were popular in Vegas juggling shows for quite awhile-where they got the name "Devil  Sticks" to make them have more drama.

                Flower sticks were NOT the first design of juggle sticks.  And the originator of the design I make and sell WAS the first Flower Stick maker-he was a professional juggler who like I said wanted to use the idea with children and others in his physical therapy practice-but needed to make them harmless and easier to use first.

                We-my partner and I-were the first to sell FlowerSticks (not Devil Sticks-they were around for quite awhile before that) at Dead shows.  And we toured the entire country doing it.  The only other person who had anything even close was a guy named Greg-who used to make different sized sticks with leather tassles on the end.  He never sold them-just made them to play with and experience people's reactions.  He favored really GIANT ones-as tall as he was usually.  They were great fun to play with although it took some skill.



                I use lunastix almost exclusively now. I've owned all of their models
                (including the kid stix) but I prefer their "master" model. It's good
                for slow and fast spinning. I can go from tasmanian devil to slo-mo
                in just a couple helispins.


                As I said-if I were going to play with any others besides FlowerSticks (the ones we make)-I'd probably go for lunastix.  I know the guy that started those too.  Guess where we originally met?  Yep.  Dead shows.  But that was several years after we started doing it.  Used to run into him at Rainbow Gatherings too.  

                And nobody else was really into light juggling sticks yet unless they got it from us or him.


                Hey fiorastar... I got my first set of sticks from a guy named Craig
                who used to sell them on tour. They were devil sticks. He'd make them
                on his brother's (I think) lathe, wrap 'em in heavy duty rubber
                electrical tape, and decorate them with colored duct tape. Know him?


                I've probably met him although I don't remember him specifically.  There were alot of devil sticks on tour.  Actually it started with just a couple of people busking and playing with them as "trip toys" then a few started making them to sell.  But when we sold FlowerSticks-cross country-back in the 80's there were really NO other people doing it.

                By the way-we have made a reasonably successful fire stick design that uses our basic FlowerStick except instead of the leather cups on the ends we put tuna cans on them.  Then wrap the tuna cans several times in fire wick-you can get it at any juggling equipment place (Dube-who my partner used to work for way back when they were selling juggle balls on the streets of Berkeley-Juggling Capitol in DC or San Fran-Flying Clipper here in Eugene).  Use white gas as fuel-it burns much cooler than other fuels so it's safer.  They work pretty well and handle like FlowerSticks.  Special considerations are that you need to protect the fiberglass and the wrapping tape from heat accumulation-even if it burns cool it still is burning.  The tuna cans act as a pretty good heat sink.

                Yours in Fun!
                Fiora Starchild
                www.FlowerSticks.com
              • sauoq
                ... predecessor ... I made the mistake of replying to a reply. I did sneak a peek at the original post but I should have gone back and read it more completely
                Message 7 of 10 , Jul 1, 2002
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                  --- In DevilStickForum@y..., fiorastar@a... wrote:

                  > We've actually done quite a bit of research on this-as did our
                  predecessor
                  > who first designed FlowerSticks.

                  I made the mistake of replying to a reply. I did sneak a peek at the
                  original post but I should have gone back and read it more completely
                  before replying. You did indicate you had researched it some. My
                  apologies for that.




                  > >>Despite the commercial plug, they weren't first sold
                  > at Dead shows...
                  >
                  > That wasn't meant as a commercial plug.

                  Whether it was meant as one or not... but hey! I'd plug my wares too.
                  That's how you make a living, right? I wish I was making a living
                  with sticks rather than sitting in front of a computer screen. I'm
                  just jealous. ;-)

                  I do have to say that I think calling them "ORIGINAL" in a post like
                  that is misleading even if you consider it part of the brand name.
                  But that's just my opinion.


                  > I never said juggle sticks were first sold at
                  > Dead shows. I SAID......

                  My apologies again. You were clearer in your post than I gave you
                  credit for.

                  >
                  > And were popular in Vegas juggling shows for quite awhile-where
                  > they got the name "Devil Sticks" to make them have more drama.

                  That's a prevailing theory but I thought I'd seen evidence that they
                  were called "devil sticks" prior to Vegas's birth? I have read that
                  diablo comes from a greek word meaning to "toss across." And, of
                  course, we think of "diablo" as meaning devil... and then of course
                  there is the similarity between the diablo juggling apparatus and
                  devil sticks... Does anyone know for sure?


                  > Flower sticks were NOT the first design of juggle sticks. And the
                  originator
                  > of the design I make and sell WAS the first Flower Stick maker-

                  "Flower sticks" is the literal translation of the chinese "hua kua."
                  I thought you had mentioned that yourself. It seems that part of the
                  miscommunication here is that when I talk about flower sticks, I'm
                  not talking about a brand but the same phrase, when you say it,
                  refers to the brand you sell. Just so you understand that it is not
                  improper to call Lunastix "flower sticks" and, in fact, I do.


                  > > I use lunastix almost exclusively now.
                  >
                  > As I said-if I were going to play with any others besides
                  FlowerSticks (the
                  > ones we make)-I'd probably go for lunastix.

                  Yeah, I'm not religious about what sticks I use or anything. I think
                  I've tried yours at one time. They look familiar at any rate. One of
                  my best sets ever was a set I got on Venice beach from some guys who
                  were making them from stuff they found in the trash. It was a thick
                  (probably 1/2 inch) dowel wrapped in hemp cloth and then in cargo
                  netting. The tassles were leather and hemp cloth. The handles were
                  also wrapped in cargo netting. Unfortunately, I lost the baton in
                  D.C. during the 4th of July weekend a couple years ago. After that, I
                  found my first pair of lunastix at the Discovery.com store, of all
                  places.


                  > But when we sold FlowerSticks-cross country-back in the 80's
                  > there were really NO other people doing it.

                  Yeah, the ones I got from Craig were of the "devil" variety. That was
                  around '88 I guess.

                  > By the way-we have made a reasonably successful fire stick design
                  that uses
                  > our basic FlowerStick except instead of the leather cups on the
                  ends we put
                  > tuna cans on them. Then wrap the tuna cans several times in fire
                  wick

                  I'd be interested in them maybe. I've been on the lookout for a good
                  pair of flaming flower sticks.

                  -sauoq

                  P.S. Thanks for noticing my topsy-turvy nick. :-)
                • fiorastar@aol.com
                  In a message dated 7/1/02 8:54:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time, sauoq@yahoo.com ... Yeah-that was confusing the way I wrote it. When I said flower sticks in that
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jul 2, 2002
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                    In a message dated 7/1/02 8:54:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time, sauoq@... writes:



                    > Flower sticks were NOT the first design of juggle sticks.  And the
                    originator
                    > of the design I make and sell WAS the first Flower Stick maker-

                    "Flower sticks" is the literal translation of the chinese "hua kua."
                    I thought you had mentioned that yourself. It seems that part of the
                    miscommunication here is that when I talk about flower sticks, I'm
                    not talking about a brand but the same phrase, when you say it,
                    refers to the brand you sell. Just so you understand that it is not
                    improper to call Lunastix "flower sticks" and, in fact, I do.




                    Yeah-that was confusing the way I wrote it.  When I said flower sticks in that paragraph I was referring to the lighter juggle sticks-and our design is the original of those (first developed around 1978).  You are correct (and I did mention it in an earlier post) that the words are a translation of the Chinese name for what we know as devil sticks.   As far as using brand names we actually did have Flowersticks trademarked back in the early 80's when nobody else was making anything like them and it would be nice to at least see people giving some credit to those of us who were pioneering this idea and doing our best to open this game up to a more general audience by making a light harmless and virtually unbreakable design.  I know that by now the name has become the generic term for light juggling sticks-but there was a time when ours were the only ones out there and that is the name we chose.

                    End of lecture.

                    And you're welcome about noticing your name juggling.

                    Yours in Fun!
                    Fiora Starchild
                    www.FlowerSticks.com
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