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Getting Kids turned on to science was the Genesis account proved!!

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  • Donna Dolezal Zelzer
    At 12:39 PM -0600 5/31/2000, you sent these words singing over the electrons ... Why is this, I wonder? Science is so exciting. it s about the world, about
    Message 1 of 23 , May 31, 2000
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      At 12:39 PM -0600 5/31/2000, you sent these words singing over the electrons
      >I know Americans are scientifically inept, but even
      >the dullest among us can see that these things are ridiculous.

      Why is this, I wonder? Science is so exciting. it's about the world,
      about life, about how things are put together and how they work! Even
      if you don't want to BE a scientist, finding out what science has
      discovered is so exciting!

      Is it the schools, the way science is presented? Bad teachers? (A bad
      teacher can make even the most interesting subject dull.)

      Come-on, every body! Give me some neat science bits for my
      newsletter. Let's help make science fun for kids!!

      Donna

      <><><><><><><><><><>
      Donna Dolezal Zelzer donna@...
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    • Scott Crabtree
      Yeah I enjoyed talkin to you about it too, and if you recall our conversation I never claimed that it was proven and I still don t. ... === message truncated
      Message 2 of 23 , Jun 1, 2000
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        Yeah I enjoyed talkin' to you about it too, and if you
        recall our conversation I never claimed that it was
        proven and I still don't.

        --- victoria sipos <perdis1@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Scott! You and I have been through this already.
        > The creationist account has NOT been proven.
        > Creationists take bits and pieces of science and try
        > and fit it into the creation myth. I listened to a
        > guy on TV the other day who wrote a book "The
        > Science of God". He had a chart. On one side was
        > "creation" on the other side "evolution". First
        > item on creation side was "creation" on the
        > evolution side was "big bang". He went down the six
        > days of creation and had something scientific on the
        > other side. He was grinning from ear-to-ear telling
        > how science proved creation. he problem is he only
        > used tidbits of science that he thought corresponded
        > to his creation story. He left out 90% of the
        > scientific evidence for evolution. You can't say
        > "creation" and "big bang" are the same and therefore
        > science proves the bible. The "creation" of man on
        > day six does not take into account australopithucus,
        > homo erectus, neanderthals, etc. On the contrary,
        > the bible teaches that man was created in the image
        > of god. Creation of "land creatures" does not
        > allow for extinction of dinosours, or the millions
        > of years they roamed this earth or the many
        > evolutionary phases they are known to have gone
        > through. It does not allow for the evolution of
        > mammals. Fossils have been found of plants that no
        > longer exist. This cannot be explained by a
        > world-wide flood that did not happen. Yes, there is
        > no evidence for a world-wide flood. Floods leave
        > geological evidence. There have been floods all
        > over the world, but not at the same time. I cannot
        > understand how one can rewrite a myth, such as the
        > Enuma Elish, call it creation, and suddenly it is
        > fact.
        >
        >
        > Scott Crabtree wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        > Yeah I'm still readin' them bud, and I'd gladly talk
        >
        > to you about it, but as Mr. Flank has kindly pointed
        >
        > out, there can be absolutely no talk of God so it'd
        >
        > have to be 1 on 1 if you so desired. Anyhoo, if you
        >
        > feel so inclined, I'm here. Adios.
        >
        >
        >
        > --- Melanie Hunt wrote:
        >
        > > Here's an interesting website I found:
        >
        > > http://www.csun.edu/~vcgeo005/wise.htm
        >
        > >
        >
        > > Scott, if you're still reading these, how on earth
        >
        > > can you read these
        >
        > > sorts of things and still believe in the literal 7
        >
        > > days of creation? It's
        >
        > > just not possible....well I suppose if you are
        > able
        >
        > > to suspend belief
        >
        > > indefinitely....
        >
        > > Here's an exerpt from the above site:
        >
        > >
        >
        > > A Creation "Science" Geologic Time Scale
        >
        > >
        >
        > > (1) 4000 B.C. Creation Week: (laws of science
        >
        > > suspended)
        >
        > >
        >
        > > Day 1 - Space, light & dark, earth materials.
        >
        > > Day 2 - Waters above and waters below.
        >
        > > Day 3 - Earth's crust and plants.
        >
        > > Day 4 - Sun, moon, and stars in place.
        >
        > > Day 5 - Atmosphere + animals of the waters.
        >
        > > Day 6 - Land animals + Adam & Eve.
        >
        > > Day 7 - Day of rest.
        >
        > >
        >
        > > 1,500 years. Pre-Flood "Geology." Laws of science
        >
        > > invalid.
        >
        > >
        >
        > > (2) Adam and Eve, talking snakes, etc.
        >
        > > (3) World's waters are in great Venus-like
        >
        > > atmosphere or in ground
        >
        > > water. No rain, no ocean basins.
        >
        > > (4) Radiometric dating invalid; speed of light
        >
        > > changed.
        >
        > > (5) Humans, dinosaurs, mammals, the "works," all
        >
        > > live together in
        >
        > > peace. Both lions and Tyranosaurus Rex are
        >
        > > vegetarians in Eden
        >
        > > before the "fall."
        >
        > > (6) Human life spans up to 900 years.
        >
        > > (7) Battle of Satan and angels produces craters on
        >
        > > moon.
        >
        > >
        >
        > > Flood Year: Flood "Geology" - ONE (?) year of
        > normal
        >
        > > (?) "science"
        >
        > >
        >
        > > Rain - 40 days
        >
        > > (8) Big animals run to mountain tops. Not a
        > single
        >
        > > dumb human
        >
        > > caught in all the early flood sediments. All
        >
        > > dinosaurs washed off
        >
        > > only in middle flood-time.
        >
        > > (9) Coral reefs (Guadalupe Mountains of Texas)
        > grow
        >
        > > to
        >
        > > thicknesses of half a mile during single year.
        >
        > > (10) Vast coal beds accumulate one on top of
        >
        > > another, each as
        >
        > > original swamp deposits on order of 100 feet
        > thick,
        >
        > > all in one year.
        >
        > > (11) Mile-thick salt formations in Utah form by
        >
        > > evaporation (!) of
        >
        > > seawater during (!) the flood.
        >
        > >
        >
        > > Flood - about 250 days.
        >
        > > (12) Most of the world's sedimentary rocks dumped
        > on
        >
        > > continents
        >
        > > to average thickness of one mile, almost entirely
        >
        > > during the flood
        >
        > > year.
        >
        > > (13) Most continental drif occurs. Flood waters
        >
        >
        === message truncated ===


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      • Jack Sullivan
        ... I guess when you swallow something on faith, proof isn t required. The majority of Americans believe in angels and miracles and they don t require any
        Message 3 of 23 , Jun 1, 2000
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          Scott Crabtree wrote:

          > Yeah I enjoyed talkin' to you about it too, and if you
          > recall our conversation I never claimed that it was
          > proven and I still don't.
          >

          I guess when you swallow something on faith, proof isn't required. The
          majority of Americans believe in angels and miracles and they don't require
          any proof either.
          --
          Jack Sullivan
        • victoria sipos
          I enjoyed talking to you, Scott, and would love to continue. As for god talk on this chat line, I feel it is impossible to discuss evolution vs creation
          Message 4 of 23 , Jun 1, 2000
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            I enjoyed talking to you, Scott, and would love to continue.  As for "god talk" on this chat line, I feel it is impossible to discuss evolution vs creation without mentioning the creation story.  I am willing to give it consideration, but on a scientific basis only.  Solid evidence is always welcome, but that includes evidence supporting evolution also.  Perhaps if everyone was willing to discuss facts and not get sarcastic we could include everyone's point of view.  I know you are a creationist and that is fine.   If you can present scientific evidence for your beliefs, it would provide a good balance.  Science thrives on evidence and debate.  Religion does not.  Religion owes its existence to faith.  Faith means believing what cannot be proved  and often what makes no sense.  It relies on fear of punishment for questioning.   What is necessary is to get past that fear and look for logical answers.   If you can present them,  I am sure all will listen.


            Scott Crabtree wrote:




            Yeah I enjoyed talkin' to you about it too, and if you

            recall our conversation I never claimed that it was

            proven and I still don't.



            --- victoria sipos wrote:

            >

            > Hi Scott!  You and I have been through this already.

            >  The creationist account has NOT been proven.

            > Creationists take bits and pieces of science and try

            > and fit it into the creation myth.  I listened to a

            > guy on TV the other day who wrote a book "The

            > Science of God".  He had a chart.  On one side was

            > "creation" on the other side "evolution".  First

            > item on creation side was "creation" on the

            > evolution side was "big bang".  He went down the six

            > days of creation and had something scientific on the

            > other side.  He was grinning from ear-to-ear telling

            > how science proved creation.  he problem is he only

            > used tidbits of science that he thought corresponded

            > to his creation story.  He left out 90% of the

            > scientific evidence for evolution.  You can't say

            > "creation" and "big bang" are the same and therefore

            > science proves the bible.   The "creation" of man on

            > day six does not take into account australopithucus,

            > homo erectus, neanderthals, etc. On the contrary,

            > the bible teaches that man was created in the image

            > of god.    Creation of "land creatures" does not

            > allow for extinction of dinosours,  or the millions

            > of years they roamed this earth or the many

            > evolutionary phases they are known to have gone

            > through.  It does not allow for the evolution of

            > mammals.   Fossils have been found of plants that no

            > longer exist.  This cannot be explained by a

            > world-wide flood that did not happen.  Yes, there is

            > no evidence for a world-wide flood.  Floods leave

            > geological evidence.  There have been floods all

            > over the world, but not at the same time.  I cannot

            > understand how one can rewrite a myth,  such as the

            > Enuma Elish, call it creation, and suddenly it is

            > fact.     

            >



            > Scott Crabtree wrote:

            >

            >

            >

            > Yeah I'm still readin' them bud, and I'd gladly talk

            >

            > to you about it, but as Mr. Flank has kindly pointed

            >

            > out, there can be absolutely no talk of God so it'd

            >

            > have to be 1 on 1 if you so desired. Anyhoo, if you

            >

            > feel so inclined, I'm here. Adios.

            >

            >

            >

            > --- Melanie Hunt wrote:

            >

            > > Here's an interesting website I found:

            >

            > > http://www.csun.edu/~vcgeo005/wise.htm

            >

            > >

            >

            > > Scott, if you're still reading these, how on earth

            >

            > > can you read these

            >

            > > sorts of things and still believe in the literal 7

            >

            > > days of creation? It's

            >

            > > just not possible....well I suppose if you are

            > able

            >

            > > to suspend belief

            >

            > > indefinitely....

            >

            > > Here's an exerpt from the above site:

            >

            > >

            >

            > > A Creation "Science" Geologic Time Scale

            >

            > >

            >

            > > (1) 4000 B.C. Creation Week: (laws of science

            >

            > > suspended)

            >

            > >

            >

            > >      Day 1 - Space, light & dark, earth materials.

            >

            > >      Day 2 - Waters above and waters below.

            >

            > >      Day 3 - Earth's crust and plants.

            >

            > >      Day 4 - Sun, moon, and stars in place.

            >

            > >      Day 5 - Atmosphere + animals of the waters.

            >

            > >      Day 6 - Land animals + Adam & Eve.

            >

            > >      Day 7 - Day of rest.

            >

            > >

            >

            > > 1,500 years. Pre-Flood "Geology." Laws of science

            >

            > > invalid.

            >

            > >

            >

            > > (2) Adam and Eve, talking snakes, etc.

            >

            > > (3) World's waters are in great Venus-like

            >

            > > atmosphere or in ground

            >

            > > water.  No rain, no ocean basins.

            >

            > > (4) Radiometric dating invalid; speed of light

            >

            > > changed.

            >

            > > (5) Humans, dinosaurs, mammals, the "works," all

            >

            > > live together in

            >

            > > peace.  Both lions and Tyranosaurus Rex are

            >

            > > vegetarians in Eden

            >

            > > before the "fall."

            >

            > > (6) Human life spans up to 900 years.

            >

            > > (7) Battle of Satan and angels produces craters on

            >

            > > moon. 

            >

            > >

            >

            > > Flood Year: Flood "Geology" - ONE (?) year of

            > normal

            >

            > > (?) "science"

            >

            > >

            >

            > > Rain - 40 days

            >

            > > (8) Big animals run to mountain tops.  Not a

            > single

            >

            > > dumb human

            >

            > > caught in all the early flood sediments.  All

            >

            > > dinosaurs washed off

            >

            > > only in middle flood-time.

            >

            > > (9) Coral reefs (Guadalupe Mountains of Texas)

            > grow

            >

            > > to

            >

            > > thicknesses of half a mile during single year.

            >

            > > (10) Vast coal beds accumulate one on top of

            >

            > > another, each as

            >

            > > original swamp deposits on order of 100 feet

            > thick,

            >

            > > all in one year.

            >

            > > (11) Mile-thick salt formations in Utah form by

            >

            > > evaporation (!) of

            >

            > > seawater during (!) the flood. 

            >

            > >

            >

            > > Flood - about 250 days.

            >

            > > (12) Most of the world's sedimentary rocks dumped

            > on

            >

            > > continents

            >

            > > to average thickness of one mile, almost entirely

            >

            > > during the flood

            >

            > > year.

            >

            > > (13) Most continental drif occurs.  Flood waters

            >

            >

            === message truncated ===





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          • Donna Dolezal Zelzer
            ... I have to admit there are things I believe on faith without any scientific proof (NOT creationism!), but I m not trying to get my beliefs into schools as
            Message 5 of 23 , Jun 2, 2000
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              At 2:32 PM -0400 6/1/2000, Jack Sullivan spoke thusly:
              >
              >I guess when you swallow something on faith, proof isn't required. The
              >majority of Americans believe in angels and miracles and they don't require
              >any proof either.

              I have to admit there are things I believe on faith without any
              scientific proof (NOT creationism!), but I'm not trying to get my
              beliefs into schools as part of the science curriculum.

              Scott, I can't remember if you think it should be taught in schools
              or not, but a lot of creationists do. And that's where we have the
              problem.

              Creationism is NOT science and should not be taught as such. If
              creationists were just quietly believing that Genesis is the literal
              truth, no one would care. But they're making lots of noise, trying to
              force creationism into the science curriculum, or, failing that, push
              evolution out. I think for some it's a "I'll put my hands over my
              ears and if I don't hear you it's not true" kind of thing (ie, if
              no-one is talking about evolution, they don't have to examine their
              own faith) but for others it's a way to gain control.

              Donna
              <><><><><><><><><><>
              Donna Dolezal Zelzer donna@...
              Subscribe to Nanny's Notes, a free weekly email newsletter for
              people who love and care for children, birth through 8 years old.

              Just send your email to nanny-join@...
              with sub nannysig in the subject
              http://www.moonlily.com/nanny/nannynote/

              Send short science bits for kids to nannynote@...
            • Jack Sullivan
              ... But creationists and many fundies believe they re on a mission, just as they have since Origin of Species was published over 100 years ago. They believe
              Message 6 of 23 , Jun 2, 2000
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                Donna Dolezal Zelzer wrote:

                > At 2:32 PM -0400 6/1/2000, Jack Sullivan spoke thusly:
                > >
                > >I guess when you swallow something on faith, proof isn't required. The
                > >majority of Americans believe in angels and miracles and they don't require
                > >any proof either.
                >
                > I have to admit there are things I believe on faith without any
                > scientific proof (NOT creationism!), but I'm not trying to get my
                > beliefs into schools as part of the science curriculum.
                >
                > Scott, I can't remember if you think it should be taught in schools
                > or not, but a lot of creationists do. And that's where we have the
                > problem.
                >
                > Creationism is NOT science and should not be taught as such. If
                > creationists were just quietly believing that Genesis is the literal
                > truth, no one would care. But they're making lots of noise, trying to
                > force creationism into the science curriculum, or, failing that, push
                > evolution out. I think for some it's a "I'll put my hands over my
                > ears and if I don't hear you it's not true" kind of thing (ie, if
                > no-one is talking about evolution, they don't have to examine their
                > own faith) but for others it's a way to gain control.
                >
                > Donna

                But creationists and many fundies believe they're on a mission, just as they
                have since Origin of Species was published over 100 years ago. They believe that
                science is directly attacking the fundamentals of their cherished belief system
                and putting in its place a godless world view based on randomness and disorder.
                They feel that this point of view undermines morality and "family values," even
                if their point of view is extremely reactionary.

                The Morrisites, who started slapping on pseudoscientific justification for
                literal belief in the Bible, have fanned the flames of this antagonism. Now they
                feel that they have a "scientific" basis for their beliefs and that it deserves
                equal time, or better, with scientific learning.

                If anyone caught any of the TV dramatization of Inherit the Wind on TV last
                week, you could sense how high the feelings about teaching evolutionary theory
                in schools ran 80 years ago. Now they're organized, have money and are
                politically active, especially on the local level where they can stay below the
                radar of the Constitution and still infiltrate themselves into the school
                systems at all levels. Look at Kansas and Oklahoma. Which state will be next?
                --
                Jack Sullivan
              • Donna Dolezal Zelzer
                ... Jack, I think we re saying the same thing, but in different ways. Ie, since they believe evolution is attacking the fundamentals of their belief system
                Message 7 of 23 , Jun 2, 2000
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                  At 6:05 PM -0400 6/2/2000, Jack Sullivan spoke thusly quoting me:
                  > But they're making lots of noise, trying to
                  >> force creationism into the science curriculum, or, failing that, push
                  >> evolution out. I think for some it's a "I'll put my hands over my
                  >> ears and if I don't hear you it's not true" kind of thing (ie, if
                  >> no-one is talking about evolution, they don't have to examine their
                  >> own faith) but for others it's a way to gain control.
                  >>
                  >> Donna
                  >
                  >But creationists and many fundies believe they're on a mission, just as they
                  >have since Origin of Species was published over 100 years ago. They
                  >believe that
                  >science is directly attacking the fundamentals of their cherished
                  >belief system
                  >and putting in its place a godless world view based on randomness
                  >and disorder.
                  >They feel that this point of view undermines morality and "family
                  >values," even
                  >if their point of view is extremely reactionary.

                  Jack, I think we're saying the same thing, but in different ways.
                  Ie, since they believe evolution is attacking the fundamentals of
                  their belief system (what you said), they want to "put their hands
                  over their ears" and keep evolution from being taught so they don't
                  have to examine that belief system (what I said), and me adding now,
                  so they don't have to admit the spiritual sterility of a system that
                  worships a book instead of a deity.

                  And because they believe they're on a mission (what you said), they
                  want to control people (what I said).. so everyone believes what they
                  believe (so they can "save our souls")

                  Donna
                  <><><><><><><><><><>
                  Donna Dolezal Zelzer donna@...
                  Subscribe to Nanny's Notes, a free weekly email newsletter for
                  people who love and care for children, birth through 8 years old.

                  Just send your email to nanny-join@...
                  with sub nannysig in the subject
                  http://www.moonlily.com/nanny/nannynote/

                  Send short science bits for kids to nannynote@...
                • Jack Sullivan
                  ... Just like the Nazis. It s called orthodoxy. No need to think. Just do what you re told and follow the leader. And on top of that, you get stained glass
                  Message 8 of 23 , Jun 2, 2000
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                    Donna Dolezal Zelzer wrote:

                    > At 6:05 PM -0400 6/2/2000, Jack Sullivan spoke thusly quoting me:
                    > > But they're making lots of noise, trying to
                    > >> force creationism into the science curriculum, or, failing that, push
                    > >> evolution out. I think for some it's a "I'll put my hands over my
                    > >> ears and if I don't hear you it's not true" kind of thing (ie, if
                    > >> no-one is talking about evolution, they don't have to examine their
                    > >> own faith) but for others it's a way to gain control.
                    > >>
                    > >> Donna
                    > >
                    > >But creationists and many fundies believe they're on a mission, just as they
                    > >have since Origin of Species was published over 100 years ago. They
                    > >believe that
                    > >science is directly attacking the fundamentals of their cherished
                    > >belief system
                    > >and putting in its place a godless world view based on randomness
                    > >and disorder.
                    > >They feel that this point of view undermines morality and "family
                    > >values," even
                    > >if their point of view is extremely reactionary.
                    >
                    > Jack, I think we're saying the same thing, but in different ways.
                    > Ie, since they believe evolution is attacking the fundamentals of
                    > their belief system (what you said), they want to "put their hands
                    > over their ears" and keep evolution from being taught so they don't
                    > have to examine that belief system (what I said), and me adding now,
                    > so they don't have to admit the spiritual sterility of a system that
                    > worships a book instead of a deity.
                    >
                    > And because they believe they're on a mission (what you said), they
                    > want to control people (what I said).. so everyone believes what they
                    > believe.

                    Just like the Nazis. It's called orthodoxy. No need to think. Just do what you're
                    told and follow the leader. And on top of that, you get stained glass windows and
                    the chance to sing some hymns like "The Old Rugged Cross" and "Give Me that Old
                    Time Religion."
                    --
                    Jack Sullivan
                  • Ed
                    ... You know that if you follow the historical musical threads, the rhythms of those gospels hymns lead back to Africa, not exactly a wellspring of Christian
                    Message 9 of 23 , Jun 2, 2000
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                      On June 03, 2000, Jack Sullivan wrote:
                       
                      >It's called orthodoxy. No need to think. Just do what you're
                      >told and follow the leader. And on top of that, you get stained glass >windows and the chance to sing some hymns like "The Old Rugged Cross" >and "Give Me that Old Time Religion."
                       
                      You know that if you follow the historical musical threads, the rhythms of those gospels hymns lead back to Africa, not exactly a wellspring of Christian theology. I wonder what the Religious Right would make of that?
                      (Sorry for the off-topic post, Lenny).
                       
                                                                                                 Regards,
                       
                                                                                                                      Ed
                      Visit my  Wacky Genre TV website at:
                      http://www.geocities.com/smelmo1/
                       
                    • Jack Sullivan
                      ... Watch Triumph of the Will, the movie made about one of the Nuremberg Nazi Partei rallies in the mid-30s. Music played an integral role in whipping up
                      Message 10 of 23 , Jun 2, 2000
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                        Ed wrote:

                        >
                        >
                        > On June 03, 2000, Jack Sullivan wrote: >It's called
                        > orthodoxy. No need to think. Just do what you're
                        > >told and follow the leader. And on top of that, you get
                        > stained glass >windows and the chance to sing some hymns
                        > like "The Old Rugged Cross" >and "Give Me that Old Time
                        > Religion."
                        >
                        > You know that if you follow the historical musical threads, the
                        > rhythms of those gospels hymns lead back to Africa, not exactly a
                        > wellspring of Christian theology. I wonder what the Religious Right
                        > would make of that?(Sorry for the off-topic post,
                        > Lenny).
                        > Regards,
                        > Ed

                        Watch Triumph of the Will, the movie made about one of the Nuremberg
                        Nazi Partei rallies in the mid-30s. Music played an integral role in
                        whipping up people's interest and excitement, making them more receptive
                        to the Partei message. It was mainly drums and bugles. It's an acient
                        association, going back to when ancient men beat primitive drums in
                        their caves to call gods or scare away demons. Nothing's changed. What
                        goes around comes around!

                        I think that the mind control that is used routinely on the Fundies is
                        very much on topic. To deal with the enemy you have to understand his
                        emotions and "hot" buttons.
                        --
                        Jack Sullivan
                      • Ed
                        Don t get me wrong, Jack. As a musician, I know full well the psychological and emotive power of music and primal rhythm. In many a European battle, the
                        Message 11 of 23 , Jun 3, 2000
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                          Don't get me wrong, Jack. As a musician,  I know full well the psychological and emotive power of music and primal rhythm. In many a European battle, the drummer was one of the main targets (destroy the rhythmn,  you destroy the emotional heart of an army,  as well certain reheased battle sequences). My point was that there is much music & rhythm that has migrated across geographic and religious boundaries. And especially rhyhm has transcended country & culture. In fact, a study of music history tends to undermine the notion of cultural and religious primacy. And it is this notion of primacy that tends to rule  most relgious and cultural extremists. I figure it's one more  chink their flimsy armour.
                           
                                                                                         Regards,
                           
                                                                                                           Ed
                           
                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Jack Sullivan <jsulliva@...>
                          To: DebunkCreation@egroups.com <DebunkCreation@egroups.com>
                          Date: Saturday, June 03, 2000 12:57 AM
                          Subject: Re: [DebunkCreation] the Genesis account proved!!



                          Ed wrote:

                          >
                          >
                          >      On June 03, 2000, Jack Sullivan wrote: >It's called
                          >      orthodoxy. No need to think. Just do what you're
                          >      >told and follow the leader. And on top of that, you get
                          >      stained glass >windows and the chance to sing some hymns
                          >      like "The Old Rugged Cross" >and "Give Me that Old Time
                          >      Religion."
                          >
                          >  You know that if you follow the historical musical threads, the
                          > rhythms of those gospels hymns lead back to Africa, not exactly a
                          > wellspring of Christian theology. I wonder what the Religious Right
                          > would make of that?(Sorry for the off-topic post,
                          > Lenny).
                          > Regards,
                          > Ed

                          Watch Triumph of the Will, the movie made about one of the Nuremberg
                          Nazi Partei rallies in the mid-30s. Music played an integral role in
                          whipping up people's interest and excitement, making them more receptive
                          to the Partei message. It was mainly drums and bugles. It's an acient
                          association, going back to when ancient men beat primitive drums in
                          their caves to call gods or scare away demons. Nothing's changed. What
                          goes around comes around!

                          I think that the mind control that is used routinely on the Fundies is
                          very much on topic. To deal with the enemy you have to understand his
                          emotions and "hot" buttons.
                          --
                          Jack Sullivan



                        • Scott Crabtree
                          ... I couldn t agree w/ you more, I don t think Creationism should be taught in any school aside from private Christain ones. I do believe, however, that
                          Message 12 of 23 , Jun 3, 2000
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                            --- Donna Dolezal Zelzer <donna@...> wrote:
                            > At 2:32 PM -0400 6/1/2000, Jack Sullivan spoke
                            > thusly:
                            > >
                            > >I guess when you swallow something on faith, proof
                            > isn't required. The
                            > >majority of Americans believe in angels and
                            > miracles and they don't require
                            > >any proof either.
                            >
                            > I have to admit there are things I believe on faith
                            > without any
                            > scientific proof (NOT creationism!), but I'm not
                            > trying to get my
                            > beliefs into schools as part of the science
                            > curriculum.
                            >
                            > Scott, I can't remember if you think it should be
                            > taught in schools
                            > or not, but a lot of creationists do. And that's
                            > where we have the
                            > problem.
                            >
                            > Creationism is NOT science and should not be taught
                            > as such. If
                            > creationists were just quietly believing that
                            > Genesis is the literal
                            > truth, no one would care. But they're making lots of
                            > noise, trying to
                            > force creationism into the science curriculum, or,
                            > failing that, push
                            > evolution out. I think for some it's a "I'll put my
                            > hands over my
                            > ears and if I don't hear you it's not true" kind of
                            > thing (ie, if
                            > no-one is talking about evolution, they don't have
                            > to examine their
                            > own faith) but for others it's a way to gain
                            > control.
                            >
                            > Donna

                            I couldn't agree w/ you more, I don't think
                            Creationism should be taught in any school aside from
                            private Christain ones. I do believe, however, that
                            teaching of evolution should be edited a little bit
                            from it's current practice.

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                          • David B. Stephens, Ph.D.
                            But isn t that censorship? And who determines what is edited? Dave
                            Message 13 of 23 , Jun 3, 2000
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                              But isn't that censorship? And who determines what is edited?

                              Dave

                              Scott Crabtree wrote:

                              > --- Donna Dolezal Zelzer <donna@...> wrote:
                              > > At 2:32 PM -0400 6/1/2000, Jack Sullivan spoke
                              > > thusly:
                              > > >
                              > > >I guess when you swallow something on faith, proof
                              > > isn't required. The
                              > > >majority of Americans believe in angels and
                              > > miracles and they don't require
                              > > >any proof either.
                              > >
                              > > I have to admit there are things I believe on faith
                              > > without any
                              > > scientific proof (NOT creationism!), but I'm not
                              > > trying to get my
                              > > beliefs into schools as part of the science
                              > > curriculum.
                              > >
                              > > Scott, I can't remember if you think it should be
                              > > taught in schools
                              > > or not, but a lot of creationists do. And that's
                              > > where we have the
                              > > problem.
                              > >
                              > > Creationism is NOT science and should not be taught
                              > > as such. If
                              > > creationists were just quietly believing that
                              > > Genesis is the literal
                              > > truth, no one would care. But they're making lots of
                              > > noise, trying to
                              > > force creationism into the science curriculum, or,
                              > > failing that, push
                              > > evolution out. I think for some it's a "I'll put my
                              > > hands over my
                              > > ears and if I don't hear you it's not true" kind of
                              > > thing (ie, if
                              > > no-one is talking about evolution, they don't have
                              > > to examine their
                              > > own faith) but for others it's a way to gain
                              > > control.
                              > >
                              > > Donna
                              >
                              > I couldn't agree w/ you more, I don't think
                              > Creationism should be taught in any school aside from
                              > private Christain ones. I do believe, however, that
                              > teaching of evolution should be edited a little bit
                              > from it's current practice.
                              >
                              > __________________________________________________
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                              > Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!
                              > http://photos.yahoo.com
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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                            • Jack Sullivan
                              ... That s rich. Evolution has been basically removed from secondary school biology texts over the past 70 years and is probably only touched on for a day or
                              Message 14 of 23 , Jun 3, 2000
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                                Scott Crabtree wrote:

                                > --- Donna Dolezal Zelzer <donna@...> wrote:
                                > > At 2:32 PM -0400 6/1/2000, Jack Sullivan spoke
                                > > thusly:
                                > > >
                                > > >I guess when you swallow something on faith, proof
                                > > isn't required. The
                                > > >majority of Americans believe in angels and
                                > > miracles and they don't require
                                > > >any proof either.
                                > >
                                > > I have to admit there are things I believe on faith
                                > > without any
                                > > scientific proof (NOT creationism!), but I'm not
                                > > trying to get my
                                > > beliefs into schools as part of the science
                                > > curriculum.
                                > >
                                > > Scott, I can't remember if you think it should be
                                > > taught in schools
                                > > or not, but a lot of creationists do. And that's
                                > > where we have the
                                > > problem.
                                > >
                                > > Creationism is NOT science and should not be taught
                                > > as such. If
                                > > creationists were just quietly believing that
                                > > Genesis is the literal
                                > > truth, no one would care. But they're making lots of
                                > > noise, trying to
                                > > force creationism into the science curriculum, or,
                                > > failing that, push
                                > > evolution out. I think for some it's a "I'll put my
                                > > hands over my
                                > > ears and if I don't hear you it's not true" kind of
                                > > thing (ie, if
                                > > no-one is talking about evolution, they don't have
                                > > to examine their
                                > > own faith) but for others it's a way to gain
                                > > control.
                                > >
                                > > Donna
                                >
                                > I couldn't agree w/ you more, I don't think
                                > Creationism should be taught in any school aside from
                                > private Christain ones. I do believe, however, that
                                > teaching of evolution should be edited a little bit
                                > from it's current practice.
                                >
                                >

                                That's rich. Evolution has been basically removed from secondary school
                                biology texts over the past 70 years and is probably only touched on for a
                                day or two in the science curricula of more liberal and progressive schools.
                                It's too involved a theory and requires too much scientific background
                                (chemistry, geology, genetics, etc) for it to have much effect in high
                                schools anyway. I think you've had your brain laundered, Scott. The teaching
                                of evolution prior to college is negligible (except perhaps in pre-med or
                                advanced placement biology classes - and these kids want to learn this
                                because they'll need it later on in their education) and is hardly the
                                devil's serpent that fundies and creationists paint it as being, disrupting
                                the morals of children by teaching them that life has no purpose, that
                                everything they see around them is the result of random events, etc.

                                Your comment makes it sound like the Communist Manifesto is required reading
                                in high school. Believe me, Scott, most kids who graduate from HS don't know
                                that their mouths are in any way connected to their assholes, let alone able
                                to tell you who Darwin was.
                                --
                                Jack Sullivan
                              • Jack Sullivan
                                ... Comes the Christian fundie revolution and about the only thing that won t go into the Nazi-esque bonfires of hate and repression will be the Bibles and
                                Message 15 of 23 , Jun 3, 2000
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                                  "David B. Stephens, Ph.D." wrote:

                                  > But isn't that censorship? And who determines what is edited?
                                  >
                                  > Dave
                                  >
                                  > Scott Crabtree wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > --- Donna Dolezal Zelzer <donna@...> wrote:
                                  > > > At 2:32 PM -0400 6/1/2000, Jack Sullivan spoke
                                  > > > thusly:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >I guess when you swallow something on faith, proof
                                  > > > isn't required. The
                                  > > > >majority of Americans believe in angels and
                                  > > > miracles and they don't require
                                  > > > >any proof either.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I have to admit there are things I believe on faith
                                  > > > without any
                                  > > > scientific proof (NOT creationism!), but I'm not
                                  > > > trying to get my
                                  > > > beliefs into schools as part of the science
                                  > > > curriculum.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Scott, I can't remember if you think it should be
                                  > > > taught in schools
                                  > > > or not, but a lot of creationists do. And that's
                                  > > > where we have the
                                  > > > problem.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Creationism is NOT science and should not be taught
                                  > > > as such. If
                                  > > > creationists were just quietly believing that
                                  > > > Genesis is the literal
                                  > > > truth, no one would care. But they're making lots of
                                  > > > noise, trying to
                                  > > > force creationism into the science curriculum, or,
                                  > > > failing that, push
                                  > > > evolution out. I think for some it's a "I'll put my
                                  > > > hands over my
                                  > > > ears and if I don't hear you it's not true" kind of
                                  > > > thing (ie, if
                                  > > > no-one is talking about evolution, they don't have
                                  > > > to examine their
                                  > > > own faith) but for others it's a way to gain
                                  > > > control.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Donna
                                  > >
                                  > > I couldn't agree w/ you more, I don't think
                                  > > Creationism should be taught in any school aside from
                                  > > private Christain ones. I do believe, however, that
                                  > > teaching of evolution should be edited a little bit
                                  > > from it's current practice.
                                  > >

                                  Comes the Christian fundie revolution and about the only thing that won't go
                                  into the Nazi-esque bonfires of hate and repression will be the Bibles and
                                  books my Henry Morris.
                                  --
                                  Jack Sullivan
                                • Donna Dolezal Zelzer
                                  ... It s nice to hear a creationist say that! ... In what way, specifically? Donna
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Jun 3, 2000
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                                    At 3:21 PM -0700 6/3/2000, Scott Crabtree spoke thusly:
                                    >I couldn't agree w/ you more, I don't think
                                    >Creationism should be taught in any school aside from
                                    >private Christain ones.

                                    It's nice to hear a creationist say that!

                                    > I do believe, however, that
                                    >teaching of evolution should be edited a little bit
                                    >from it's current practice.

                                    In what way, specifically?

                                    Donna
                                  • Scott Crabtree
                                    Well depends what you mean by edited, I probably chose the wrong word to use there. What I simply mean is that instead of focusing so much on the theory and
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Jun 3, 2000
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                                      Well depends what you mean by edited, I probably chose
                                      the wrong word to use there. What I simply mean is
                                      that instead of focusing so much on the theory and
                                      pressing it as fact, instead the scientific
                                      information should just be presented. What I mean is
                                      the fact that bacteria can take up loose DNA doesn't
                                      neccisarly prove evolution at all, but all textbooks
                                      I've read, 'xcept for maybe these new ones in Kansas,
                                      go on to say that's how early bacteria evolved and
                                      yada yada yada. It aint neccisary if the evidence
                                      shows that to be true.


                                      --- "David B. Stephens, Ph.D."
                                      <sysop@...> wrote:
                                      > But isn't that censorship? And who determines what
                                      > is edited?
                                      >
                                      > Dave
                                      >
                                      > Scott Crabtree wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > --- Donna Dolezal Zelzer <donna@...>
                                      > wrote:
                                      > > > At 2:32 PM -0400 6/1/2000, Jack Sullivan spoke
                                      > > > thusly:
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >I guess when you swallow something on faith,
                                      > proof
                                      > > > isn't required. The
                                      > > > >majority of Americans believe in angels and
                                      > > > miracles and they don't require
                                      > > > >any proof either.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > I have to admit there are things I believe on
                                      > faith
                                      > > > without any
                                      > > > scientific proof (NOT creationism!), but I'm not
                                      > > > trying to get my
                                      > > > beliefs into schools as part of the science
                                      > > > curriculum.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Scott, I can't remember if you think it should
                                      > be
                                      > > > taught in schools
                                      > > > or not, but a lot of creationists do. And that's
                                      > > > where we have the
                                      > > > problem.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Creationism is NOT science and should not be
                                      > taught
                                      > > > as such. If
                                      > > > creationists were just quietly believing that
                                      > > > Genesis is the literal
                                      > > > truth, no one would care. But they're making
                                      > lots of
                                      > > > noise, trying to
                                      > > > force creationism into the science curriculum,
                                      > or,
                                      > > > failing that, push
                                      > > > evolution out. I think for some it's a "I'll put
                                      > my
                                      > > > hands over my
                                      > > > ears and if I don't hear you it's not true" kind
                                      > of
                                      > > > thing (ie, if
                                      > > > no-one is talking about evolution, they don't
                                      > have
                                      > > > to examine their
                                      > > > own faith) but for others it's a way to gain
                                      > > > control.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Donna
                                      > >
                                      > > I couldn't agree w/ you more, I don't think
                                      > > Creationism should be taught in any school aside
                                      > from
                                      > > private Christain ones. I do believe, however,
                                      > that
                                      > > teaching of evolution should be edited a little
                                      > bit
                                      > > from it's current practice.
                                      > >
                                      > > __________________________________________________
                                      > > Do You Yahoo!?
                                      > > Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!
                                      > > http://photos.yahoo.com
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                      > > Free @Backup service! Click here for your free
                                      > trial of @Backup.
                                      > > @Backup is the most convenient way to securely
                                      > protect and access
                                      > > your files online. Try it now and receive 300
                                      > MyPoints.
                                      > >
                                      >
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                                      >
                                      >


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                                    • Scott Crabtree
                                      ... That s more due to crappy schools then the fact that our special subject of evolution is, dare I say, excluded.
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Jun 3, 2000
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                                        --- Jack Sullivan <jsulliva@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Scott Crabtree wrote:
                                        >
                                        > > --- Donna Dolezal Zelzer <donna@...>
                                        > wrote:
                                        > > > At 2:32 PM -0400 6/1/2000, Jack Sullivan spoke
                                        > > > thusly:
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >I guess when you swallow something on faith,
                                        > proof
                                        > > > isn't required. The
                                        > > > >majority of Americans believe in angels and
                                        > > > miracles and they don't require
                                        > > > >any proof either.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > I have to admit there are things I believe on
                                        > faith
                                        > > > without any
                                        > > > scientific proof (NOT creationism!), but I'm not
                                        > > > trying to get my
                                        > > > beliefs into schools as part of the science
                                        > > > curriculum.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Scott, I can't remember if you think it should
                                        > be
                                        > > > taught in schools
                                        > > > or not, but a lot of creationists do. And that's
                                        > > > where we have the
                                        > > > problem.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Creationism is NOT science and should not be
                                        > taught
                                        > > > as such. If
                                        > > > creationists were just quietly believing that
                                        > > > Genesis is the literal
                                        > > > truth, no one would care. But they're making
                                        > lots of
                                        > > > noise, trying to
                                        > > > force creationism into the science curriculum,
                                        > or,
                                        > > > failing that, push
                                        > > > evolution out. I think for some it's a "I'll put
                                        > my
                                        > > > hands over my
                                        > > > ears and if I don't hear you it's not true" kind
                                        > of
                                        > > > thing (ie, if
                                        > > > no-one is talking about evolution, they don't
                                        > have
                                        > > > to examine their
                                        > > > own faith) but for others it's a way to gain
                                        > > > control.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Donna
                                        > >
                                        > > I couldn't agree w/ you more, I don't think
                                        > > Creationism should be taught in any school aside
                                        > from
                                        > > private Christain ones. I do believe, however,
                                        > that
                                        > > teaching of evolution should be edited a little
                                        > bit
                                        > > from it's current practice.
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > That's rich. Evolution has been basically removed
                                        > from secondary school
                                        > biology texts over the past 70 years and is probably
                                        > only touched on for a
                                        > day or two in the science curricula of more liberal
                                        > and progressive schools.
                                        > It's too involved a theory and requires too much
                                        > scientific background
                                        > (chemistry, geology, genetics, etc) for it to have
                                        > much effect in high
                                        > schools anyway. I think you've had your brain
                                        > laundered, Scott. The teaching
                                        > of evolution prior to college is negligible (except
                                        > perhaps in pre-med or
                                        > advanced placement biology classes - and these kids
                                        > want to learn this
                                        > because they'll need it later on in their education)
                                        > and is hardly the
                                        > devil's serpent that fundies and creationists paint
                                        > it as being, disrupting
                                        > the morals of children by teaching them that life
                                        > has no purpose, that
                                        > everything they see around them is the result of
                                        > random events, etc.
                                        >
                                        > Your comment makes it sound like the Communist
                                        > Manifesto is required reading
                                        > in high school. Believe me, Scott, most kids who
                                        > graduate from HS don't know
                                        > that their mouths are in any way connected to their
                                        > assholes, let alone able
                                        > to tell you who Darwin was.
                                        > --
                                        > Jack Sullivan
                                        >
                                        >

                                        That's more due to crappy schools then the fact that
                                        our special subject of evolution is, dare I say,
                                        excluded.


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                                      • Jack Sullivan
                                        ... Nonetheless, ask your average HS graduate to tell you the basics of a evolutionary theory and you ll get a blank stare. Water down exactly what, Scott, to
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Jun 3, 2000
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                                          Scott Crabtree wrote:

                                          > --- Jack Sullivan <jsulliva@...> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Scott Crabtree wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > > --- Donna Dolezal Zelzer <donna@...>
                                          > > wrote:
                                          > > > > At 2:32 PM -0400 6/1/2000, Jack Sullivan spoke
                                          > > > > thusly:
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >I guess when you swallow something on faith,
                                          > > proof
                                          > > > > isn't required. The
                                          > > > > >majority of Americans believe in angels and
                                          > > > > miracles and they don't require
                                          > > > > >any proof either.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > I have to admit there are things I believe on
                                          > > faith
                                          > > > > without any
                                          > > > > scientific proof (NOT creationism!), but I'm not
                                          > > > > trying to get my
                                          > > > > beliefs into schools as part of the science
                                          > > > > curriculum.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Scott, I can't remember if you think it should
                                          > > be
                                          > > > > taught in schools
                                          > > > > or not, but a lot of creationists do. And that's
                                          > > > > where we have the
                                          > > > > problem.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Creationism is NOT science and should not be
                                          > > taught
                                          > > > > as such. If
                                          > > > > creationists were just quietly believing that
                                          > > > > Genesis is the literal
                                          > > > > truth, no one would care. But they're making
                                          > > lots of
                                          > > > > noise, trying to
                                          > > > > force creationism into the science curriculum,
                                          > > or,
                                          > > > > failing that, push
                                          > > > > evolution out. I think for some it's a "I'll put
                                          > > my
                                          > > > > hands over my
                                          > > > > ears and if I don't hear you it's not true" kind
                                          > > of
                                          > > > > thing (ie, if
                                          > > > > no-one is talking about evolution, they don't
                                          > > have
                                          > > > > to examine their
                                          > > > > own faith) but for others it's a way to gain
                                          > > > > control.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Donna
                                          > > >
                                          > > > I couldn't agree w/ you more, I don't think
                                          > > > Creationism should be taught in any school aside
                                          > > from
                                          > > > private Christain ones. I do believe, however,
                                          > > that
                                          > > > teaching of evolution should be edited a little
                                          > > bit
                                          > > > from it's current practice.
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > >
                                          > > That's rich. Evolution has been basically removed
                                          > > from secondary school
                                          > > biology texts over the past 70 years and is probably
                                          > > only touched on for a
                                          > > day or two in the science curricula of more liberal
                                          > > and progressive schools.
                                          > > It's too involved a theory and requires too much
                                          > > scientific background
                                          > > (chemistry, geology, genetics, etc) for it to have
                                          > > much effect in high
                                          > > schools anyway. I think you've had your brain
                                          > > laundered, Scott. The teaching
                                          > > of evolution prior to college is negligible (except
                                          > > perhaps in pre-med or
                                          > > advanced placement biology classes - and these kids
                                          > > want to learn this
                                          > > because they'll need it later on in their education)
                                          > > and is hardly the
                                          > > devil's serpent that fundies and creationists paint
                                          > > it as being, disrupting
                                          > > the morals of children by teaching them that life
                                          > > has no purpose, that
                                          > > everything they see around them is the result of
                                          > > random events, etc.
                                          > >
                                          > > Your comment makes it sound like the Communist
                                          > > Manifesto is required reading
                                          > > in high school. Believe me, Scott, most kids who
                                          > > graduate from HS don't know
                                          > > that their mouths are in any way connected to their
                                          > > assholes, let alone able
                                          > > to tell you who Darwin was.
                                          > > --
                                          > > Jack Sullivan
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          > That's more due to crappy schools then the fact that
                                          > our special subject of evolution is, dare I say,
                                          > excluded.
                                          >

                                          Nonetheless, ask your average HS graduate to tell you the basics of a
                                          evolutionary theory and you'll get a blank stare. Water down exactly what,
                                          Scott, to make you and the other Bible-thumpers happy? Have the Bible as
                                          required study material in public schools? Sorry, but until you succeed in
                                          changing the Constitution, you're out of luck on that score.
                                          --
                                          Jack Sullivan
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