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Re: [DebunkCreation] More creationist drivel

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  • Ian Robinson
    ... No. The ancestors of primates, i.e. small mammals, did exist. ... Who knows. Not eye witness sightings of dinosaurs. That s for sure. Ian -- Ian Robinson -
    Message 1 of 27 , Jun 1 12:22 AM
      On 1/6/04 4:54 am, "Mike Sims" <mikesims10670@...> wrote:

      > Here again is my ignorance on this topic. Didn't
      > primates exist back when dinasaurs walked the earth?

      No. The ancestors of primates, i.e. small mammals, did exist.

      >
      > If not, what is the explanation for the old drawings?

      Who knows. Not eye witness sightings of dinosaurs. That's for sure.

      Ian

      --
      Ian Robinson - Belfast - UK <http://www.canicula.com>
      Soapbox - <http://homepage.mac.com/ianrobinson/index.html>
    • Anne Gilbert
      Epistimite: Another bleagh! This is the kind of thing that I found accidentally on one creationist site(a few nights ago), while looking for more good stuff
      Message 2 of 27 , Jun 1 7:33 PM
        Epistimite:

        Another bleagh! This is the kind of thing that I found accidentally on one
        creationist site(a few nights ago), while looking for more good stuff on
        Neandertals. I even remember posting the URL here for a laugh.
        Anne G

        > I'm kind of confused. In his "seminars", Hovind assures people man and
        > dinosaur coexisted. Some cave paintings are offered as proof. Strange.
        John in
        > WI
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • Anne Gilbert
        ... Apparently, very small, rather ratlike mammals *did* exist during the latter days of the dinosaurs. It s my understanding that many of them were
        Message 3 of 27 , Jun 1 7:35 PM
          Mike S:

          > Here again is my ignorance on this topic. Didn't
          > primates exist back when dinasaurs walked the earth?
          >
          > If not, what is the explanation for the old drawings?

          Apparently, very small, rather ratlike mammals *did* exist during the latter
          days of the dinosaurs. It's my understanding that many of them were
          burrowers, and this is one explanation for why mammals survived and
          dinosaurs didn't, when the asteroid struck the earth. But primates evolved
          later, I believe. I could be wrong, so anybody who is knowoledgeable about
          this, can feel free to correct me.
          Anne G
        • Jack Kilmon
          ... From: Anne Gilbert To: Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2004 9:35 PM Subject: Re: [DebunkCreation] More
          Message 4 of 27 , Jun 1 9:10 PM
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Anne Gilbert" <kebara@...>
            To: <DebunkCreation@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2004 9:35 PM
            Subject: Re: [DebunkCreation] More creationist drivel


            > Mike S:
            >
            > > Here again is my ignorance on this topic. Didn't
            > > primates exist back when dinasaurs walked the earth?
            > >
            > > If not, what is the explanation for the old drawings?
            >
            > Apparently, very small, rather ratlike mammals *did* exist during the
            latter
            > days of the dinosaurs. It's my understanding that many of them were
            > burrowers, and this is one explanation for why mammals survived and
            > dinosaurs didn't, when the asteroid struck the earth. But primates
            evolved
            > later, I believe. I could be wrong, so anybody who is knowoledgeable
            about
            > this, can feel free to correct me.
            > Anne G


            Mammals fossils are rare from the Cretaceous but an early cretaceous mammal
            was Eomaia. Mammal radiation apparently began in the late cretaceous and
            the good old opossum nibbling on that piece of chicken in your garbage can
            was also feeding on dinosaur eggs. Marsupials and multituberculates were
            late Cretaceous as was the eutherian Purgatorius, a small shrew-like mammal
            that may have been an ancestor to primates that would survive into the
            Tertiary following the K-T event. True primates emerged toward the end of
            the very next epoch, the Palaeocene.

            Jack
          • Epistemite@aol.com
            Hey Anne, All of you guys are so great! Your assistance and effort demonstrate how seriously you feel about creationism. The help is invaluable! I don t know
            Message 5 of 27 , Jun 2 7:17 AM
              Hey Anne,
              All of you guys are so great! Your assistance and effort demonstrate how
              seriously you feel about creationism. The help is invaluable! I don't know
              how you all do it but I sure appreciate it. Wish I found you sooner! John Zimny
              in Elm Grove, Wisconsin
            • Epistemite@aol.com
              Hey again, Anne, (Just read my email.) I think your take on primates is correct. The extinction of the dinosaurs allowed them to begin evolving from critters
              Message 6 of 27 , Jun 2 7:26 AM
                Hey again, Anne,
                (Just read my email.) I think your take on primates is correct. The
                extinction of the dinosaurs allowed them to begin evolving from critters into
                larger creatures. It all makes sense and is an easy way to remember the evolution
                timeline.
                Of course, Hovind disagrees. He believes everything coexisted. But I'm
                not sure how he fits dinosaurs into the Ark! I've never wanted someone to be
                busted by the IRS so badly! John in Wisconsin
              • thegrappler
                ... The ... critters into ... the evolution ... But I m ... someone to be ... easy, they was all babies
                Message 7 of 27 , Jun 2 11:21 AM
                  --- In DebunkCreation@yahoogroups.com, Epistemite@a... wrote:
                  > Hey again, Anne,
                  > (Just read my email.) I think your take on primates is correct.
                  The
                  > extinction of the dinosaurs allowed them to begin evolving from
                  critters into
                  > larger creatures. It all makes sense and is an easy way to remember
                  the evolution
                  > timeline.
                  > Of course, Hovind disagrees. He believes everything coexisted.
                  But I'm
                  > not sure how he fits dinosaurs into the Ark! I've never wanted
                  someone to be
                  > busted by the IRS so badly! John in Wisconsin

                  easy, they was all babies
                • lflank@ij.net
                  ... Eggs. Noah had some really big Hovabators on board. ; ========================================== Lenny Flank There are no loose threads in the web of
                  Message 8 of 27 , Jun 2 3:38 PM
                    On 2 Jun 2004 at 18:21, thegrappler wrote:

                    > --- In DebunkCreation@yahoogroups.com, Epistemite@a... wrote:
                    > > Hey again, Anne,
                    > > (Just read my email.) I think your take on primates is correct.
                    > The
                    > > extinction of the dinosaurs allowed them to begin evolving from
                    > critters into
                    > > larger creatures. It all makes sense and is an easy way to remember
                    > the evolution
                    > > timeline.
                    > > Of course, Hovind disagrees. He believes everything coexisted.
                    > But I'm
                    > > not sure how he fits dinosaurs into the Ark! I've never wanted
                    > someone to be
                    > > busted by the IRS so badly! John in Wisconsin
                    >
                    > easy, they was all babies




                    Eggs. Noah had some really big Hovabators on board. ;>


                    ==========================================
                    Lenny Flank
                    "There are no loose threads in the web of life"

                    Creation "Science" Debunked:
                    http://www.geocities.com/lflank

                    My Reptile Page:
                    http://www.geocities.com/lflank/herp.html
                  • Anne Gilbert
                    ... mammal ... mammal ... Well, it makes sense that some opossum-like creature may have nibbled on dinosaur eggs(incidentally, I read today, in a book about
                    Message 9 of 27 , Jun 2 8:49 PM
                      Jack:

                      > Mammals fossils are rare from the Cretaceous but an early cretaceous
                      mammal
                      > was Eomaia. Mammal radiation apparently began in the late cretaceous and
                      > the good old opossum nibbling on that piece of chicken in your garbage can
                      > was also feeding on dinosaur eggs. Marsupials and multituberculates were
                      > late Cretaceous as was the eutherian Purgatorius, a small shrew-like
                      mammal
                      > that may have been an ancestor to primates that would survive into the
                      > Tertiary following the K-T event. True primates emerged toward the end of
                      > the very next epoch, the Palaeocene.

                      Well, it makes sense that some opossum-like creature may have nibbled on
                      dinosaur eggs(incidentally, I read today, in a book about Pacific Northwest
                      mammals, that opossums are not stupid at all; they're actually rather
                      smart). But the reconstructions I've seen of the supposedly earliest
                      mammals look kind of like rats to me. And I was pretty sure that primates
                      didn't evolve until somewhat later.
                      Anne G
                    • Anne Gilbert
                      ... how ... Zimny ... I do my best, although I can t say I m any expert at all, at least not on anything much other than human evolution(generally) and later h
                      Message 10 of 27 , Jun 2 8:52 PM
                        John:

                        > All of you guys are so great! Your assistance and effort demonstrate
                        how
                        > seriously you feel about creationism. The help is invaluable! I don't know
                        > how you all do it but I sure appreciate it. Wish I found you sooner! John
                        Zimny
                        > in Elm Grove, Wisconsin

                        I do my best, although I can't say I'm any expert at all, at least not on
                        anything much other than human evolution(generally) and later h uman
                        evolution(more specifically), and even there, there are people far more
                        expert than I am. Everyone here, though feels strongly enough about
                        creationism and its idiocies, to have learned as much as they can about
                        basic evolutionary processes, so feel free to ask any questions you would
                        like.
                        Anne G
                      • Anne Gilbert
                        ... into ... evolution ... be ... Well, as Jack pointed out in an earlier post, primates didn t coexist with dinosaurs, Hovind to the contrary. The first
                        Message 11 of 27 , Jun 2 8:55 PM
                          John:

                          > (Just read my email.) I think your take on primates is correct. The
                          > extinction of the dinosaurs allowed them to begin evolving from critters
                          into
                          > larger creatures. It all makes sense and is an easy way to remember the
                          evolution
                          > timeline.
                          > Of course, Hovind disagrees. He believes everything coexisted. But I'm
                          > not sure how he fits dinosaurs into the Ark! I've never wanted someone to
                          be
                          > busted by the IRS so badly! John in Wisconsin

                          Well, as Jack pointed out in an earlier post, primates didn't coexist with
                          dinosaurs, Hovind to the contrary. The first mammal reocnstructions look(to
                          me) rather like rats, but were apparently --- according to Jack ---
                          opossumlike. When dinosaurs died out, this allowed what evolutionary
                          biologists call "adaptive radiation" into various vacant niches to take
                          place, and primates did evolve from this, but millions of years after the
                          last dinosaurs died out.

                          As for Hovind, well, I guess he will keep repeating his idiocies, and keep
                          trying to prove them till the day they put him six feet under, but that's
                          his problem, not yours or mine.
                          Anne G
                        • Anne Gilbert
                          ... Gee. I don t remember anything in the Bible about that. . . . Oh well, I don t claim to be all-knowing. Unlike *some* people. Anne G
                          Message 12 of 27 , Jun 2 8:56 PM
                            Lenny:

                            > Eggs. Noah had some really big Hovabators on board. ;>

                            Gee. I don't remember anything in the Bible about that. . . . Oh well, I
                            don't claim to be all-knowing. Unlike *some* people.
                            Anne G
                          • Dave Oldridge
                            ... The earliest primates probably did show up around 70-100 million years ago and would have been around when dinosaurs were. But the first hominins did not
                            Message 13 of 27 , Jun 2 9:33 PM
                              On 31 May 2004 at 20:54, Mike Sims wrote:

                              > --- Epistemite@... wrote:
                              > > I'm kind of confused. In his "seminars", Hovind
                              > > assures people man and dinosaur coexisted. Some
                              > > cave paintings are offered as proof. Strange.
                              > > John in WI
                              >
                              > Here again is my ignorance on this topic. Didn't
                              > primates exist back when dinasaurs walked the earth?

                              The earliest primates probably did show up around 70-100 million
                              years ago and would have been around when dinosaurs were. But the
                              first hominins did not show up until around 7 million years ago or
                              later.

                              > If not, what is the explanation for the old drawings?

                              Poor artistry accounts for most of it.
                            • Jack Kilmon
                              Message ----- From: Anne Gilbert To: Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 10:49 PM Subject: Re:
                              Message 14 of 27 , Jun 2 10:34 PM
                                Message -----
                                From: "Anne Gilbert" <kebara@...>
                                To: <DebunkCreation@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 10:49 PM
                                Subject: Re: [DebunkCreation] More creationist drivel


                                > Jack:
                                >
                                > > Mammals fossils are rare from the Cretaceous but an early cretaceous
                                > mammal
                                > > was Eomaia. Mammal radiation apparently began in the late cretaceous
                                and
                                > > the good old opossum nibbling on that piece of chicken in your garbage
                                can
                                > > was also feeding on dinosaur eggs. Marsupials and multituberculates
                                were
                                > > late Cretaceous as was the eutherian Purgatorius, a small shrew-like
                                > mammal
                                > > that may have been an ancestor to primates that would survive into the
                                > > Tertiary following the K-T event. True primates emerged toward the end
                                of
                                > > the very next epoch, the Palaeocene.
                                >
                                > Well, it makes sense that some opossum-like creature may have nibbled on
                                > dinosaur eggs(incidentally, I read today, in a book about Pacific
                                Northwest
                                > mammals, that opossums are not stupid at all; they're actually rather
                                > smart). But the reconstructions I've seen of the supposedly earliest
                                > mammals look kind of like rats to me. And I was pretty sure that primates
                                > didn't evolve until somewhat later.
                                > Anne G


                                Yeh..Purgatorius, in the late Cretaceous and early Palaeocene had some
                                proto-primate dentition but true died-in-the wool, card carrying primates
                                emerged in the late Paleocene around 60mya. It is the Eocene (56-35 mya)
                                where we see increased adaptive radiation of placental mammals including
                                adapid and omomyid pro-simians. The Oligocene (34.4-23.3 MYA) saw the first
                                anthropoids and monkeys appear to have overcrowded the pro-simians. This is
                                when Aegyptopithecus rose up to say hello. Now comes the Miocene (23-5 MYA)
                                when apes and our ancestors, the Dryopithecines, stroll up the hill of
                                evolution. It is toward the end of this era that humans and chimps split
                                from a common ancestor to go each others separate ways. The Pliocene and
                                Pleistocene, of course, you know about with the Australopithecines and
                                emergence of Homo.

                                Ah yes, I remember it well..I was just a kid then.

                                Jack
                              • verhap@occ1.sd01.k12.id.us
                                ... Is that a serious answer? Paul
                                Message 15 of 27 , Jun 3 6:36 AM
                                  > But I'm
                                  > > not sure how he fits dinosaurs into the Ark! I've never wanted
                                  > someone to be
                                  > > busted by the IRS so badly! John in Wisconsin
                                  >
                                  > easy, they was all babies

                                  Is that a serious answer?

                                  Paul
                                • Epistemite@aol.com
                                  Hey Anne, Good job on the primate-opposum post. That s just what I learned. You re one of the many reasons this group is so great! Unfortunately, Hovind will
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Jun 3 7:38 AM
                                    Hey Anne,
                                    Good job on the primate-opposum post. That's just what I learned. You're
                                    one of the many reasons this group is so great! Unfortunately, Hovind will be
                                    back in Wisconsin in a couple months. Doubt I'll make it to his show.
                                    I recently saw Phillip Johnson speak at a church. It was like any other
                                    creationist performance but I'm glad I went. Not sure how much longer he'll be
                                    around. Pretty old. He couldn't speak very well. Lots of stuttering, losing
                                    his place, etc. Too bad even bigger morons like Hovind and Ken Ham will take his
                                    place. John in Wisconsin
                                  • Epistemite@aol.com
                                    Hey Paul, I think the answer to the dinosaur-ark question was actually what Hovind claims. I know it s sad. Let s watch for an update on the latest ark
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Jun 3 7:44 AM
                                      Hey Paul,
                                      I think the answer to the dinosaur-ark question was actually what Hovind
                                      claims. I know it's sad. Let's watch for an update on the latest ark
                                      expedition. Maybe it will gives us some clues! John Zimny in Wisconsin
                                    • lflank@ij.net
                                      ... Sadly, it is. It is typical of the, uh, scientific sophistication that creationists have. ========================================== Lenny Flank There
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Jun 3 3:30 PM
                                        On 3 Jun 2004 at 7:36, verhap@... wrote:

                                        > > But I'm
                                        > > > not sure how he fits dinosaurs into the Ark! I've never wanted
                                        > > someone to be
                                        > > > busted by the IRS so badly! John in Wisconsin
                                        > >
                                        > > easy, they was all babies
                                        >
                                        > Is that a serious answer?



                                        Sadly, it is. It is typical of the, uh, scientific sophistication
                                        that creationists have.





                                        ==========================================
                                        Lenny Flank
                                        "There are no loose threads in the web of life"

                                        Creation "Science" Debunked:
                                        http://www.geocities.com/lflank

                                        My Reptile Page:
                                        http://www.geocities.com/lflank/herp.html
                                      • Anne Gilbert
                                        ... You re ... be ... other ... he ll be ... losing ... take his ... Well, all of this just goes to show h ow much I know about creationists. I didn t think
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Jun 3 7:17 PM
                                          John:

                                          > Good job on the primate-opposum post. That's just what I learned.
                                          You're
                                          > one of the many reasons this group is so great! Unfortunately, Hovind will
                                          be
                                          > back in Wisconsin in a couple months. Doubt I'll make it to his show.
                                          > I recently saw Phillip Johnson speak at a church. It was like any
                                          other
                                          > creationist performance but I'm glad I went. Not sure how much longer
                                          he'll be
                                          > around. Pretty old. He couldn't speak very well. Lots of stuttering,
                                          losing
                                          > his place, etc. Too bad even bigger morons like Hovind and Ken Ham will
                                          take his
                                          > place.

                                          Well, all of this just goes to show h ow much I know about creationists. I
                                          didn't think Philip Johnson was *that* old(he must be rapidly losing it),
                                          and I thought Ken Ham, Hovind, et al, had been around for years. And yes,
                                          these guys are morons, if they beliee the stuff they claim to believe. All
                                          they'd need to do to enlighten themselves would be to hie themselves to the
                                          nearest public library. But of course "book larnin'" is probably Satan's
                                          tool as far as they are concerned.
                                          Anne G
                                        • Anne Gilbert
                                          ... I have a partner in writing crime , so to speak, who has an eight year old son. *He s* more sophisticated in his knowledge of these things than the
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Jun 3 7:18 PM
                                            Lenny:

                                            > Sadly, it is. It is typical of the, uh, scientific sophistication
                                            > that creationists have.

                                            I have a partner in "writing crime", so to speak, who has an eight year old
                                            son. *He's* more sophisticated in his knowledge of these things than the
                                            creationists whose names keep appearing on this list appear to be.
                                            Anne G
                                          • Jim Taylor
                                            ... The earliest primate fossils date to the late Cretaceous, but they weren t very advanced--not as advanced as the most primitive monkeys, at any rate. ...
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Jun 9 11:32 AM
                                              > Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 20:54:54 -0700 (PDT)
                                              > From: Mike Sims <mikesims10670@...>
                                              > Subject: Re: More creationist drivel
                                              >
                                              > --- Epistemite@... wrote:
                                              > > I'm kind of confused. In his "seminars", Hovind
                                              > > assures people man and dinosaur coexisted. Some
                                              > > cave paintings are offered as proof. Strange.
                                              > > John in WI
                                              >
                                              > Here again is my ignorance on this topic. Didn't
                                              > primates exist back when dinasaurs walked the earth?

                                              The earliest primate fossils date to the late Cretaceous,
                                              but they weren't very advanced--not as advanced as the
                                              most primitive monkeys, at any rate.

                                              > If not, what is the explanation for the old drawings?

                                              They're not dinosaurs. They don't even resemble
                                              dinosaurs. The closest resemblance are Mayan drawings
                                              which actually appear to be parrots.

                                              Regards,
                                              Jim






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                                            • Dave Oldridge
                                              ... Which are, of course, highly evolved dinosaurs!
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Jun 10 12:26 PM
                                                On 9 Jun 2004 at 11:32, Jim Taylor wrote:

                                                > > Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 20:54:54 -0700 (PDT)
                                                > > From: Mike Sims <mikesims10670@...>
                                                > > Subject: Re: More creationist drivel
                                                > >
                                                > > --- Epistemite@... wrote:
                                                > > > I'm kind of confused. In his "seminars", Hovind
                                                > > > assures people man and dinosaur coexisted. Some
                                                > > > cave paintings are offered as proof. Strange.
                                                > > > John in WI
                                                > >
                                                > > Here again is my ignorance on this topic. Didn't
                                                > > primates exist back when dinasaurs walked the earth?
                                                >
                                                > The earliest primate fossils date to the late Cretaceous,
                                                > but they weren't very advanced--not as advanced as the
                                                > most primitive monkeys, at any rate.
                                                >
                                                > > If not, what is the explanation for the old drawings?
                                                >
                                                > They're not dinosaurs. They don't even resemble
                                                > dinosaurs. The closest resemblance are Mayan drawings
                                                > which actually appear to be parrots.

                                                Which are, of course, highly evolved dinosaurs!
                                              • Anne Gilbert
                                                ... Yup. I just saw this black, feathered dinosaur cawing just outside my window about half an hour ago. . . . Anne G
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Jun 10 6:09 PM
                                                  Dave:

                                                  > Which are, of course, highly evolved dinosaurs!

                                                  Yup. I just saw this black, feathered dinosaur cawing just outside my
                                                  window about half an hour ago. . . .
                                                  Anne G
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