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FUNDIE CHILD ABUSE

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  • spencer james
    ... From: Liz Craig ... The thing that creates creationists is a heavy religious upbringing. I have a hypothesis (not a theory) that
    Message 1 of 9 , Dec 31, 1999
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      ------Original Message------
      From: Liz Craig <lizard6849@...>

      -------< snipped >-----

      The thing that creates creationists is a heavy
      religious upbringing. I have a hypothesis (not a
      theory) that early training in rigid,
      compartmentalized thinking, reinforced by fear of
      damnation, burning in hell, and other vivid images
      fundamentalist parents impress onto their children's
      minds, impairs a child's ability to think logically
      for the rest of his/her life.

      In studying what constitutes child abuse, I found
      extreme religiosity is included, under the category of
      intellectual or emotional abuse. I believe it is as
      harmful to a child's ability to develop into a whole
      human being as alcoholism, physical abuse, or any of
      the other dysfunctions parents exhibit.

      -----<snipped >----

      Liz

      -----SPENCER--Liz is quite correct in this. Children who are raised in a
      constant Fundamentalist atmosphere exhibit rather severe psychological
      dysfunction. By constant, one would mean having Fundamentalism in the home,
      in the church, and being stuck in a Fundamentalist private school.
      ----Interestingly, and rather demonstrative (good to cite to the
      Fundies)----Children who are reared by carnival prostitutes and children who
      are reared by two homosexual men (both groups) are far healthier
      psychologically than children reared by Fundamentalists. There would be
      excellent scientific and medical support for removing children from
      Fundamentalists and placing them for foster care with homosexual parents and
      hooker parents.

      Respectfully offered,


      Spencer James

      ---Actually children reared by almost *any* other identifiable subgroup are
      healthier psychologically than children reared in a comprehensive
      Fundamentalist atmosphere.

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    • Michael G. Watson
      Spencer, I hope I am not pulling this further off-topic, but I found your following ... are reared by two homosexual men (both groups) are far healthier
      Message 2 of 9 , Jan 1, 2000
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        Spencer,
        I hope I am not pulling this further off-topic, but I found your following
        point interesting:
        ---Children who are reared by carnival prostitutes and children who
        are reared by two homosexual men (both groups) are far healthier
        psychologically than children reared by Fundamentalists. There would be
        excellent scientific and medical support for removing children from
        Fundamentalists and placing them for foster care with homosexual parents and
        hooker parents.

        Respectfully offered,


        Spencer James

        ---Actually children reared by almost *any* other identifiable subgroup are
        healthier psychologically than children reared in a comprehensive
        Fundamentalist atmosphere.

        Is it intuitive or do you have some documentation to affirm it? What does
        "healthy" mean in this case? I'd be interested in reading some of the
        studies that have led you to these conclusions. I would be inclined to
        agree to a certain point (not quite sure about the prostitutes or carnies),
        but am reluctant to speak as strongly as you without some support.
        Thanks.
        Michael W.
      • spencer james
        ... From: Michael G. Watson To: DebunkCreation@onelist.com Sent: January 1, 2000 12:51:54 PM GMT Subject: RE: [DebunkCreation] FUNDIE
        Message 3 of 9 , Jan 1, 2000
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          ------Original Message------
          From: "Michael G. Watson" <ramage@...>
          To: DebunkCreation@onelist.com
          Sent: January 1, 2000 12:51:54 PM GMT
          Subject: RE: [DebunkCreation] FUNDIE CHILD ABUSE


          From: "Michael G. Watson" <ramage@...>

          Spencer,
          I hope I am not pulling this further off-topic, but I found your following
          point interesting:
          ---Children who are reared by carnival prostitutes and children who
          are reared by two homosexual men (both groups) are far healthier
          psychologically than children reared by Fundamentalists. There would be
          excellent scientific and medical support for removing children from
          Fundamentalists and placing them for foster care with homosexual parents and
          hooker parents.

          Respectfully offered,


          Spencer James

          ---Actually children reared by almost *any* other identifiable subgroup are
          healthier psychologically than children reared in a comprehensive
          Fundamentalist atmosphere.

          Is it intuitive or do you have some documentation to affirm it? What does
          "healthy" mean in this case? I'd be interested in reading some of the
          studies that have led you to these conclusions. I would be inclined to
          agree to a certain point (not quite sure about the prostitutes or carnies),
          but am reluctant to speak as strongly as you without some support.
          Thanks.
          Michael W.

          -------SPENCER--I think that this is surprisingly "on topic" in the sense
          that the Creationists are at least 99% rigid Fundamentalists. Often they
          post attacks on what they presume the "worldview of evolutionists" to be.
          Their specious argument then proceeds to suggest that all of the terrible
          spin off consequences of the "evolutionists" would justify abandoning it for
          Creationism which carries so many 'benefits'. Along the way they often post
          anti-sexual statements and statement about how good the schools would be if
          they had their way and so forth.
          ------Since the group purpose is Debunking Creationism, to some extent
          debunking their silly collateral claims is just icing on the cake for
          debunking their primary claims.
          ------I do not have the citations in front of me, but if I come across them
          then I will post them. The studies were in three distinct groups:
          ---GROUP A---Studies and reports of children reared in a comprehensive
          (roughly round the clock) Fundamentalism demonstrate many psychological
          problems directly attributabe to the rigid, authoritarian positions of the
          parents and exacerbated by the anti-intellecutalism of 'inerrancy' and
          'Creationism' and other similar silliness.

          ---GROUP B--In many states, homosexuals are allowed to adopt children. This
          movement began by homosexuals adopting "special needs" children (such as
          those with AIDS, handicapped, etc.). These placements were studied to see
          if they were 'healthy'. Several studies have been completed which indicate
          that two parent homosexual couples do as well as two parent heterosexual
          couples and a one parent homosexual setting is as stable and healthy as a
          one parent hetersexual setting.


          ---GROUP C--Some years back there were a couple of studies of children
          reared in what would appear to be adverse conditions on the face of it.
          However, since the children had done fine, further study was done to see
          why. These were individual case studies rather than group studies. One of
          the categories was "carnival hooker". Their children had developed very
          well in spite of what would seem like horrible conditions. The reasons that
          the children had done well was that the mothers were aware of the potential
          terrible conditions so they had made a special effort to acquire schooling
          for the kids and to protect them from dangers. The common finding was a
          tight bond, an awareness in the mother of the dangers, and a strong
          dedication to allow her children to be different from her. She encouraged
          intellectual development and wanted to children to be successful. Contrast
          this to the Fundies anti-intellectualism, lack of awareness of how harmful
          the parents develop has been, and wanting the children to be clones of the
          parent Fundies.

          SUMMARY: A more general statement is that children reared in
          comprehensive(round the clock) Fundamentalism develop considerable
          psychological problems because of the setting. One could critically
          compare them to almost any other setting. I often select "homosexuals and
          carnival hookers" for the dramatic impact and also in response to the
          Fundies knee jerk homophobia and anti sexual rhetoric.


          Respectfully submitted,


          Spencer James

          ---Oh, the term 'healthy' was used in a general sense, ie, lack of
          persisting psychogical problems or psychological dysfunction.

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        • Tuktoyak@aol.com
          In a message dated 1/1/2000 2:50:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, benign1@email.com writes: If I was a
          Message 4 of 9 , Jan 1, 2000
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            In a message dated 1/1/2000 2:50:28 AM Eastern Standard Time,
            benign1@... writes:

            << children who
            are reared by two homosexual men >>

            If I was a creationist, I would take this quote out of context and do
            something with it....
          • PastorB401@aol.com
            In a message dated 1/1/00 5:20:16 PM EST, Tuktoyak@aol.com writes:
            Message 5 of 9 , Jan 1, 2000
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              In a message dated 1/1/00 5:20:16 PM EST, Tuktoyak@... writes:

              << If I was a creationist, I would take this quote out of context and do
              something with it....
              >>
              Thinking for a creationist is totally out of context for this bb.
            • PastorB401@aol.com
              In a message dated 1/1/00 4:24:05 PM EST, benign1@email.com writes:
              Message 6 of 9 , Jan 1, 2000
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                In a message dated 1/1/00 4:24:05 PM EST, benign1@... writes:

                << Children who are reared by carnival prostitutes and children who
                are reared by two homosexual men (both groups) are far healthier
                psychologically than children reared by Fundamentalists. There would be
                excellent scientific and medical support for removing children from
                Fundamentalists and placing them for foster care with homosexual parents and
                hooker parents.
                >>
                First of all, where do you get such information? Secondly, from a
                psychological perspective, breaking up a home whether fundamentalist or not
                would be damaging PERIOD. The fact that anyone would suggest ripping a
                child away from his/her home based on ambiguous "facts" that are relative to
                each situation is as biased as any fundie/creationist teaching you'll find.
                This idea is at best equal to creationist's prejudice, if not worse.

                Wendell
              • Jim Taylor
                Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 18:01:14 EST From: PastorB401@aol.com Subject: Re: RE: RE: FUNDIE CHILD ABUSE ... Just about as scientific, certainly. While it s
                Message 7 of 9 , Jan 1, 2000
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                  Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 18:01:14 EST
                  From: PastorB401@...
                  Subject: Re: RE: RE: FUNDIE CHILD ABUSE

                  >In a message dated 1/1/00 4:24:05 PM EST, benign1@... writes:

                  ><< Children who are reared by carnival prostitutes and children who
                  > are reared by two homosexual men (both groups) are far healthier
                  > psychologically than children reared by Fundamentalists. There would
                  > be excellent scientific and medical support for removing children from
                  > Fundamentalists and placing them for foster care with homosexual
                  > parents and hooker parents.
                  >>
                  >First of all, where do you get such information? Secondly, from a
                  >psychological perspective, breaking up a home whether fundamentalist
                  >or not would be damaging PERIOD. The fact that anyone would suggest
                  >ripping a child away from his/her home based on ambiguous "facts" that
                  >are relative to each situation is as biased as any fundie/creationist
                  >teaching you'll find. This idea is at best equal to creationist's
                  >prejudice, if not worse.
                  >
                  >Wendell

                  Just about as scientific, certainly. While it's possible that a study
                  on "all fundamentalists" has been done, I strongly suspect that what's
                  really being referred-to, here, is Dr. Harry Holloway's psycho-
                  epidemiologic study, of perhaps 20 years ago, on domestic violence
                  among the Appalachian people of Scots-Irish descent. While there is
                  some overlap (most of this group are fundamentalists), the overlap is
                  lopsided, since the majority of fundamentalists is not necessarily,
                  or even probably, Appalachian people of Scots-Irish descent.

                  Therefore, if this is the study being used, it is being abused. If
                  not, the *honest* person would cite the study, giving the particulars
                  and identifying where the research protocol and results can be obtained.
                  Failing that, the person referring to this unidentified study is being
                  precisely as scientific as the creationists--AND copying their method
                  without giving them credit for it, too.

                  As for using Dr. Holloway's study, or any other, to deprive any
                  identified or presumed minority of their constitutional right to due
                  process is regressive in the extreme, bigoted in the extreme, clearly
                  actionable under both constitutional and equity law, if not under
                  criminal law once the other stuff is clearly sorted out and the
                  relevant legal precedents established.

                  I worked with Dr. Holloway for several years, which is why I'm familiar
                  both with his study and with his firm desire NOT to provide it to anyone
                  who could be suspected of having a political or social axe to grind,
                  which is why I am not giving a full citation of his study, nor will I.

                  Jim

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                • spencer james
                  ... From: Tuktoyak@aol.com To: DebunkCreation@onelist.com Sent: January 1, 2000 10:20:00 PM GMT Subject: Re: [DebunkCreation] FUNDIE CHILD ABUSE From:
                  Message 8 of 9 , Jan 1, 2000
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                    ------Original Message------
                    From: Tuktoyak@...
                    To: DebunkCreation@onelist.com
                    Sent: January 1, 2000 10:20:00 PM GMT
                    Subject: Re: [DebunkCreation] FUNDIE CHILD ABUSE


                    From: Tuktoyak@...

                    In a message dated 1/1/2000 2:50:28 AM Eastern Standard Time,
                    benign1@... writes:

                    << children who
                    are reared by two homosexual men >>

                    (Tuktoyak)If I was a creationist, I would take this quote out of context and
                    do
                    something with it....

                    -----SPENCER----Good point!!----Several years ago on one of the talk shows,
                    the program opened with two gay white men on the stage. One of them was
                    effeminate, and the talk show moderator explained that they had been allowed
                    to adopt a two year old boy two years ago. Then the audience was asked for
                    feedback. Well, as one might imagine the audience went balistic.
                    ----After allowing for a series of testy criticisms, the child was then
                    brought out. He was a cute four year old black boy with AIDS since birth.
                    He had been unadoptable and had been rejected by every other source *except*
                    the gay white couple. The boy was being monitored by doctors and social
                    workers etc. and was doing very well.
                    -----The audience then became very quiet.
                    ----The Fundie based homophobia is so bad, that they need recurrent
                    debunking and shaming.
                    -----I did not suggest that children should be taken out of comprehensive
                    Fundamentalist settings and placed in foster homes. I pointed out that
                    medical and scientific evidence would support such a move. There are other
                    considerations such as political, moral, traditional, cultural etc.
                    However, Fundies would be quick to state that children should be removed
                    from homes of hookers or homosexuals and placed in foster care. Just look
                    how they whine when one of their positions is reversed on them!


                    Respectfully submitted,


                    Spencer James

                    -----------------------------------------------
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                  • Andy
                    ... From: Tuktoyak@aol.com [SMTP:Tuktoyak@aol.com] Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2000 2:20 PM To: DebunkCreation@onelist.com Subject: Re: [DebunkCreation] FUNDIE
                    Message 9 of 9 , Jan 1, 2000
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                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Tuktoyak@... [SMTP:Tuktoyak@...]
                      Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2000 2:20 PM
                      To: DebunkCreation@onelist.com
                      Subject: Re: [DebunkCreation] FUNDIE CHILD ABUSE

                      From: Tuktoyak@...

                      In a message dated 1/1/2000 2:50:28 AM Eastern Standard Time,
                      benign1@... writes:

                      << children who
                      are reared by two homosexual men >>

                      >If I was a creationist, I would take this quote out of context and do
                      >something with it....


                      You just did.
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