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  • Bil Gladstone <group@bcnexus.com>
    ... Some seeds, including these, need to be stratified before they will germinate. It s kind of like artificially taking them through and then out of their
    Message 1 of 27 , Feb 1, 2003
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      Brian van der Spuy asked:
      > I saved up some cherry and apricot seeds, and I simply can't
      > get the bloody things to germinate. Anybody with any ideas?

      Some seeds, including these, need to be "stratified" before they will germinate. It's kind of like artificially taking them through and then out of their winter dormancy.

      Wrap them in some moist paper towelling and stick them in the fridge @ ~4*C for 6-8 weeks, then bring them out and plant them in pots with some good friable soil. It sometimes helps to lightly scarify the surface if the pit first.

      Have fun!

      /Bil:)
      in orchard country - the Okanagan Valley, British Columbia
    • Karl Lembke
      Oh, shit!!!!! http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A10088-2003Feb1.html ........Karl
      Message 2 of 27 , Feb 1, 2003
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      • amyhera <amyhara@mb.sympatico.ca>
        ... I watch nasa tv, though I wasn t watching this morning. You get to know those people a bit... very sad. Looks like the shuttle came apart near the time of
        Message 3 of 27 , Feb 1, 2003
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          --- In DebunkCreation@yahoogroups.com, "Karl Lembke" <clembke@e...>
          wrote:
          > Oh, shit!!!!!
          >
          > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A10088-2003Feb1.html
          >
          > ........Karl

          I watch nasa tv, though I wasn't watching this morning.

          You get to know those people a bit... very sad.

          Looks like the shuttle came apart near the time of maximum
          temperature on the hull. I suppose every other stress is maximum at
          that time too.

          Allan
        • Nick Bero
          watching nasa t.v. alot, what did they have to say about the foam that feel of the fuel tank? any speculation it might have been part of the heat shield
          Message 4 of 27 , Feb 1, 2003
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            watching nasa t.v. alot,  what did they have to say about the foam that feel of  the fuel tank?  any speculation it might have been part of the heat shield plates?
             
            Nick
            -----Original Message-----
            From: amyhera <amyhara@...> [mailto:amyhara@...]
            Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 12:51 PM
            To: DebunkCreation@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [DebunkCreation] Re: Shuttle lost

            --- In DebunkCreation@yahoogroups.com, "Karl Lembke" <clembke@e...>
            wrote:
            > Oh, shit!!!!!
            >
            > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A10088-2003Feb1.html
            >
            > ........Karl

            I watch nasa tv, though I wasn't watching this morning.

            You get to know those people a bit...  very sad.

            Looks like the shuttle came apart near the time of maximum
            temperature on the hull.  I suppose every other stress is maximum at
            that time too.

            Allan


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          • D. Keith Howington
            The Shuttle, the Columbia, is lost. The world is shocked, and frozen now in place. Already timid souls bemoan the cost And feel we should not once more
            Message 5 of 27 , Feb 1, 2003
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              The Shuttle, the Columbia, is lost.
              The world is shocked, and frozen now in place.
              Already timid souls bemoan the cost
              And feel we should not once more challenge space.

              Debris will be discovered, gathered, probed
              And theories will spark, then burst in flame
              Though causes might not ever be disrobed
              Too many will just search for who's to blame.

              The seven lost this February morn
              Of many countries scattered 'round the Earth,
              Would wish to see our spirit now reborn
              And keep exploring---go for all we're worth!

              The NASA Shuttle program has been stopped.
              It may be years before we can advance.
              But we can't let this ball be simply dropped!
              For future's sake, we have to take the chance.

              The veterans Husband, Chawla, Anderson,
              And rookies Brown, Ramon, McCool and Clark
              Add their names to the journey just begun
              And for them, and for us, we'll keep the spark.

              More tragedies will challenge our resolve
              And some will shy away from tempting fate.
              But there's no problem here we cannot solve,
              Though risks we cannot all eliminate.

              Please join with me to tell our team "Push on!"
              We'll bind our wounds, and grow despite our scars.
              We cannot falter, 'ere the chance is gone.
              Our destiny is out among the stars.

              ===|================/ D. Keith Howington, CEO (CEO@...)
            • amyhera <amyhara@mb.sympatico.ca>
              ... that feel ... I hadn t heard of that. any speculation it might have been part of the heat ... Your guess would be as good as mine. Allan
              Message 6 of 27 , Feb 1, 2003
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                --- In DebunkCreation@yahoogroups.com, "Nick Bero" <njbero@s...>
                wrote:
                > watching nasa t.v. alot, what did they have to say about the foam
                that feel
                > of the fuel tank?

                I hadn't heard of that.

                any speculation it might have been part of the heat
                > shield plates?

                Your guess would be as good as mine.

                Allan
              • Robert H. Diday, Jr.
                Nobel sentiments and nicely said. This is a very sad day for the world. -Robert ... From: D. Keith Howington [mailto:ceo@logix.com] Sent: Saturday, February
                Message 7 of 27 , Feb 1, 2003
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                  Nobel sentiments and nicely said. This is a very sad day for the world.
                  -Robert

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: D. Keith Howington [mailto:ceo@...]
                  Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 3:01 PM
                  To: DebunkCreation@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [DebunkCreation] Shuttle lost

                  The Shuttle, the Columbia, is lost.
                  The world is shocked, and frozen now in place.
                  Already timid souls bemoan the cost
                  And feel we should not once more challenge space.

                  Debris will be discovered, gathered, probed
                  And theories will spark, then burst in flame
                  Though causes might not ever be disrobed
                  Too many will just search for who's to blame.

                  The seven lost this February morn
                  Of many countries scattered 'round the Earth,
                  Would wish to see our spirit now reborn
                  And keep exploring---go for all we're worth!

                  The NASA Shuttle program has been stopped.
                  It may be years before we can advance.
                  But we can't let this ball be simply dropped!
                  For future's sake, we have to take the chance.

                  The veterans Husband, Chawla, Anderson,
                  And rookies Brown, Ramon, McCool and Clark
                  Add their names to the journey just begun
                  And for them, and for us, we'll keep the spark.

                  More tragedies will challenge our resolve
                  And some will shy away from tempting fate.
                  But there's no problem here we cannot solve,
                  Though risks we cannot all eliminate.

                  Please join with me to tell our team "Push on!"
                  We'll bind our wounds, and grow despite our scars.
                  We cannot falter, 'ere the chance is gone.
                  Our destiny is out among the stars.

                  ===|================/ D. Keith Howington, CEO (CEO@...)





                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                • Lenny Flank
                  ... There is apparently speculation that some of the heat shield tiles came off during launch-----film of the launch apparently shows something falling away
                  Message 8 of 27 , Feb 1, 2003
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                    > watching nasa t.v. alot, what did they have to say about the foam
                    > that feel of the fuel tank? any speculation it might have been part
                    > of the heat shield plates?
                    >

                    There is apparently speculation that some of the heat shield tiles
                    came off during launch-----film of the launch apparently shows
                    something falling away from the shuttle.

                    It's not been unusual for several heat tiles to have come off during
                    previous missions.



                    =======================================================
                    Lenny Flank
                    "There are no loose threads in the web of life"

                    Creation "Science" Debunked
                    http://www.geocities.com/lflank
                    Lenny Flank's Reptile Page
                    http://www.geocities.com/lflank/herp.html
                  • k145static <k145static@yahoo.com>
                    Publish this statement in an editorial section of a newspaper (and make it a major paper too).
                    Message 9 of 27 , Feb 1, 2003
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                      Publish this statement in an editorial section of a newspaper (and
                      make it a major paper too).


                      --- In DebunkCreation@yahoogroups.com, "D. Keith Howington"
                      <ceo@l...> wrote:
                      > The Shuttle, the Columbia, is lost.
                      > The world is shocked, and frozen now in place.
                      > Already timid souls bemoan the cost
                      > And feel we should not once more challenge space.
                      >
                      > Debris will be discovered, gathered, probed
                      > And theories will spark, then burst in flame
                      > Though causes might not ever be disrobed
                      > Too many will just search for who's to blame.
                      >
                      > The seven lost this February morn
                      > Of many countries scattered 'round the Earth,
                      > Would wish to see our spirit now reborn
                      > And keep exploring---go for all we're worth!
                      >
                      > The NASA Shuttle program has been stopped.
                      > It may be years before we can advance.
                      > But we can't let this ball be simply dropped!
                      > For future's sake, we have to take the chance.
                      >
                      > The veterans Husband, Chawla, Anderson,
                      > And rookies Brown, Ramon, McCool and Clark
                      > Add their names to the journey just begun
                      > And for them, and for us, we'll keep the spark.
                      >
                      > More tragedies will challenge our resolve
                      > And some will shy away from tempting fate.
                      > But there's no problem here we cannot solve,
                      > Though risks we cannot all eliminate.
                      >
                      > Please join with me to tell our team "Push on!"
                      > We'll bind our wounds, and grow despite our scars.
                      > We cannot falter, 'ere the chance is gone.
                      > Our destiny is out among the stars.
                      >
                      > ===|================/ D. Keith Howington, CEO (CEO@L...)
                    • Ian Robinson
                      ... No. That was a piece of insulating foam from the liquid fuel tank. It hit the left wing (as far as they can tell). A similar piece of foam from the same
                      Message 10 of 27 , Feb 1, 2003
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                        On 1/2/03 9:15 pm, "Lenny Flank" <lflank@...> wrote:

                        > There is apparently speculation that some of the heat shield tiles
                        > came off during launch-----film of the launch apparently shows
                        > something falling away from the shuttle.

                        No. That was a piece of insulating foam from the liquid fuel tank. It hit
                        the left wing (as far as they can tell). A similar piece of foam from the
                        same area of the tank, one of the areas where it is fastened to the shuttle,
                        came off during a launch about three missions past.

                        NASA looked into this during the early stages of this mission and concluded
                        that it was not a major safety threat. There is no established relationship
                        between this event and today's catastrophic failure.

                        A sad day indeed. But spaceflight is dangerous. Worth the risk though. Given
                        the choice I would be on the next shuttle flight in a shot.

                        :-(

                        Ian
                        --
                        Ian Robinson - Belfast - UK
                        <http://www.canicula.com>
                      • D. Keith Howington
                        ... Indeed, what fell off was insulation from the external tank, rather than the Orbiter itself. But it seems that the assessment, that it was not an ...
                        Message 11 of 27 , Feb 1, 2003
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                          Ian Robinson wrote:

                          > On 1/2/03 9:15 pm, "Lenny Flank" <lflank@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > > There is apparently speculation that some of the heat shield tiles
                          > > came off during launch-----film of the launch apparently shows
                          > > something falling away from the shuttle.
                          >
                          > No. That was a piece of insulating foam from the liquid fuel tank. It hit
                          > the left wing (as far as they can tell). A similar piece of foam from the
                          > same area of the tank, one of the areas where it is fastened to the
                          > shuttle,
                          > came off during a launch about three missions past.
                          >
                          > NASA looked into this during the early stages of this mission and
                          > concluded
                          > that it was not a major safety threat. There is no established
                          > relationship
                          > between this event and today's catastrophic failure.

                          Indeed, what fell off was insulation from the external tank, rather than
                          the Orbiter itself. But it seems that the assessment, that it was not an
                          issue, may have been premature. Here's an update:
                          -----------------------------------
                          ...Speculation immediately focused on damage to Columbia's protective
                          heat tiles that the ship suffered during launch from Kennedy on Jan. 16.
                          Launch pad cameras detected a piece of insulating foam from the
                          shuttle's external fuel tank breaking off and striking Columbia's left wing.

                          Minor tile damage during launch is not unusual. Leroy Cain, NASA's
                          flight director for Columbia's return home, said Friday that the wing
                          damage was not considered serious and no unusual precautions were being
                          taken.

                          Ron Dittemore, space shuttle program manager, said at a press conference
                          today that "as we look at that, in hindsight, that impact was on the
                          left side," where the first indication of abnormal occurrences was
                          reported during re-entry. "We can't discount that there might be a
                          connection." He cautioned, however, against a "rush to judgment."

                          The first indications of an abnormal re-entry came at about 7:53 a.m.,
                          CST, when a flight controller reported a loss of temperature readings in
                          hydraulic systems on the left side of the aircraft, followed by loss of
                          temperature readings in the same area, then a similar loss of readings
                          in the left landing gear, according to Milt Heflin, chief flight
                          director for the mission.

                          At about 8 a.m., the crew acknowledged the sensor trouble, after which
                          radio contact was lost, Heflin said. "Thats when we clearly began to
                          know we had a bad day," Heflin added somberly.

                          -----------------------------

                          ===|================/ D. Keith Howington, CEO (CEO@...)
                        • Ian Robinson
                          ... That s not a fair assessment of what Ron Dittemore said during the press conference. I watched it on CNN. What he said was that the insulating foam looked
                          Message 12 of 27 , Feb 1, 2003
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                            On 1/2/03 10:40 pm, "D. Keith Howington" <ceo@...> wrote:

                            > Indeed, what fell off was insulation from the external tank, rather than
                            > the Orbiter itself. But it seems that the assessment, that it was not an
                            > issue, may have been premature. Here's an update:

                            That's not a fair assessment of what Ron Dittemore said during the press
                            conference. I watched it on CNN. What he said was that the insulating foam
                            looked like it hit the leading edge of the left wing. He then said later
                            that they had lost sensor readings from, firstly, a sensor at the trailing
                            edge of the left wing during re-entry. They then lost data from another
                            sensor further towards the front of the wing and then from another sensor in
                            the wheel arch . So the loss of censors stated at the back of the wing and
                            moved towards the front of the wing.

                            My take on this is if there had been heat shield tile damage at the front of
                            the wing, as a result of the impact event during launch, they it most likely
                            would have started with sensors near the front and moved back. But Ron
                            Dittemore stressed several times that the order of the loss of sensor data
                            could not be used to draw any conclusions. It's possible that the loss was
                            due to electrical failure in other parts of the shuttle.

                            So I still think it is way to early to make any connection between the
                            launch impact event and today's events.

                            Ian
                            --
                            Ian Robinson - Belfast - UK
                            <http://www.canicula.com>
                          • Michael Suttkus
                            ... This is in the idea category, not the Here is the divinely inspired solution to your problem category. Some seeds are adapted to survive passage through
                            Message 13 of 27 , Feb 1, 2003
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                              "Brian van der Spuy <brianvds@...>" wrote:
                              >
                              > ---So is getting some seeds to germinate at all, in or out of
                              > salt water. I saved up some cherry and apricot seeds, and I
                              > simply can't get the bloody things to germinate. Anybody with
                              > any ideas?

                              This is in the idea category, not the "Here is the divinely
                              inspired solution to your problem" category.

                              Some seeds are adapted to survive passage through an animals
                              digestive system by way of a tough outer coat. I'm pretty sure
                              that Cherry pits fall into this category. The outer coat can be
                              tough enough that the seed cannot germinate with the coat
                              intact. You've got to simulate the process (known sometimes as
                              "scarification") of passing the seed through the digestive
                              system.

                              Seeds designed to pass through mammals tend to be tougher than
                              those designed to pass through birds (mammals spend mroe time
                              digesting their food, as a rule). The process can be simulated
                              in various ways, depending on the seed and what it's designed to
                              survive. Some examples of manual scarification I've heard about
                              include:

                              Soaking in a vinegar solution (strength and time varies)
                              Score the outer surface
                              tumble the seeds with sharp rocks

                              etc.

                              I'm utterly exhausted right now, if this isn't coherent, I'll
                              fix it tomorrow.



                              =====
                              Clairvoyant, n. A person, commonly a woman, who has the power of seeing that which is invisible to her patron -- namely, that he is a blockhead.
                              - Ambrose Bierce

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                            • tinroad66 <tinroad66@yahoo.com>
                              Leon Spetner tries to deal with the Nylon Bug. It is remarkable that he has so little to say. http://members.tripod.com/aslodge/id89.htm
                              Message 14 of 27 , Feb 2, 2003
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                                Leon Spetner tries to deal with the Nylon Bug. It is remarkable that
                                he has so little to say.

                                http://members.tripod.com/aslodge/id89.htm
                              • Brian van der Spuy <brianvds@yahoo.com>
                                [[[From: Bil Gladstone Subject: Re: ChristianAnswers.net... Some seeds, including these, need to be stratified
                                Message 15 of 27 , Feb 2, 2003
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                                  [[[From: "Bil Gladstone <group@...>" <group@...>
                                  Subject: Re: ChristianAnswers.net...
                                  Some seeds, including these, need to be "stratified" before they
                                  will germinate. It's kind of like artificially taking them through
                                  and then out of their winter dormancy.
                                  Wrap them in some moist paper towelling and stick them in the fridge
                                  @ ~4*C for 6-8 weeks, then bring them out and plant them in pots
                                  with some good friable soil. It sometimes helps to lightly scarify
                                  the surface if the pit first.
                                  Have fun!]]]

                                  ---Thanks! I'll go try it out and report back if and when I have had
                                  success.

                                  [[[in orchard country - the Okanagan Valley, British Columbia]]]

                                  ---Judged from photos I have seen thus far, BC is one of the most
                                  spectacularly beautiful places on this planet. I'm jealous!
                                • Lenny Flank
                                  ... Brrrrrrr . . . . . . . . . . ; ======================================================= Lenny Flank There are no loose threads in the web of life
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Feb 2, 2003
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                                    > [[[From: "Bil Gladstone <group@...>" <group@...>
                                    > Subject: Re: ChristianAnswers.net...
                                    > Some seeds, including these, need to be "stratified" before they will
                                    > germinate. It's kind of like artificially taking them through and then
                                    > out of their winter dormancy. Wrap them in some moist paper towelling
                                    > and stick them in the fridge @ ~4*C for 6-8 weeks, then bring them out
                                    > and plant them in pots with some good friable soil. It sometimes helps
                                    > to lightly scarify the surface if the pit first. Have fun!]]]
                                    >
                                    > ---Thanks! I'll go try it out and report back if and when I have had
                                    > success.
                                    >
                                    > [[[in orchard country - the Okanagan Valley, British Columbia]]]
                                    >
                                    > ---Judged from photos I have seen thus far, BC is one of the most
                                    > spectacularly beautiful places on this planet. I'm jealous!
                                    >
                                    >



                                    Brrrrrrr . . . . . . . . . . ;>





                                    =======================================================
                                    Lenny Flank
                                    "There are no loose threads in the web of life"

                                    Creation "Science" Debunked
                                    http://www.geocities.com/lflank
                                    Lenny Flank's Reptile Page
                                    http://www.geocities.com/lflank/herp.html
                                  • Bil Gladstone <group@bcnexus.com>
                                    ... 50*F and sunny today (Feb 2). No snow in the Valley bottom, but in 45 minutes I can be boarding on the some of the finest champagne powder in the
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Feb 2, 2003
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                                      Lenny wrote [re British Columbia]:
                                      > Brrrrrrr . . . . . . . . . . ;>

                                      <g>

                                      50*F and sunny today (Feb 2). No snow in the Valley bottom, but in 45 minutes I can be boarding on the some of the finest champagne powder in the world.

                                      /Bil:)
                                    • Bil Gladstone <group@bcnexus.com>
                                      ... ~~ Indeed. here is a brief summary of his argument: ... is probably the product of ... It seems to me that ... I calculated the probability... as I have
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Feb 2, 2003
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                                        Tin wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Leon Spetner tries to deal with the Nylon Bug. It is remarkable that he has so little to say.
                                        ~~

                                        Indeed. here is a brief summary of his argument:

                                        ... is probably the product of ...
                                        It seems to me that ...
                                        I calculated the probability...
                                        as I have suggested in my book...
                                        I have ignored the evolution of enzyme 1 an even less probable event.
                                        there could have been a built-in capability


                                        I'm convinced.

                                        /Bil:)
                                      • germainsjy@localdial.com
                                        Errm... & toot toot to you, Bil.... Unless we re talking Final Program and you get to choose not only the bank the factory s on, but in which Vendage... JG
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Feb 2, 2003
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                                          Errm... & "toot toot" to you, Bil....

                                          Unless we're talking "Final Program" and you get to choose not only the bank the factory's on, but in which Vendage...

                                          JG
                                          Bit of sun, bit of hail, bit of everything: as per.

                                          > ** Original Subject: [DebunkCreation] Re: BC
                                          > ** Original Sender: "Bil Gladstone <group@...>" <group@...>
                                          > ** Original Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2003 23:17:42 +0000

                                          > ** Original Message follows...

                                          >
                                          > Lenny wrote [re British Columbia]:
                                          > > Brrrrrrr . . . . . . . . . . ;>
                                          >
                                          > <g>
                                          >
                                          > 50*F and sunny today (Feb 2). No snow in the Valley bottom, but in 45 minutes I can be boarding on the some of the finest champagne powder in the world.
                                          >
                                          > /Bil:)


                                          Jersey
                                          British Channel Islands
                                          49�11'30"N
                                          02�06'12"W
                                        • amyhera <amyhara@mb.sympatico.ca>
                                          ... 45 minutes I can be boarding on the some of the finest champagne powder in the world. ... A sister of mine used to live in Peachland. Are there many
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Feb 2, 2003
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                                            --- In DebunkCreation@yahoogroups.com, "Bil Gladstone <group@b...>"
                                            <group@b...> wrote:
                                            > Lenny wrote [re British Columbia]:
                                            > > Brrrrrrr . . . . . . . . . . ;>
                                            >
                                            > <g>
                                            >
                                            > 50*F and sunny today (Feb 2). No snow in the Valley bottom, but in
                                            45 minutes I can be boarding on the some of the finest champagne
                                            powder in the world.
                                            >
                                            > /Bil:)

                                            A sister of mine used to live in Peachland.

                                            Are there many creationuts roundabout? Didn't that kook who led the
                                            Crap party get a fair amount of support in the Okeedokee Valley?

                                            Allan
                                          • Bil Gladstone <group@bcnexus.com>
                                            ... ~~ Peachland is a lovely 1/2 hour drive south along the lake from me. Yes, cretinism abounds hereabouts. There s a large Center for Christian Science in
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Feb 2, 2003
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                                              Allan wrote:
                                              > A sister of mine used to live in Peachland.
                                              > Are there many creationuts roundabout? Didn't that kook who led the Crap party get a fair amount of support in the Okeedokee Valley?
                                              ~~
                                              Peachland is a lovely 1/2 hour drive south along the lake from me.

                                              Yes, cretinism abounds hereabouts. There's a large Center for Christian Science in our downtown; not "Christian Scientists"<tm>, just Bible-centric pseudo-science like creationism.

                                              Stockwell Day, the kook to whom you refer, has a home in Peachland and was widely supported in this area (Central Okanagan) - the Bible Belt of the Rockies.

                                              Although not fully "outed" for such in his strongly faith-based political campaign, he is commonly known to believe such foolishness as a 6,000 year old earth.

                                              I'm not certain that if this were more widely broadcast that he would have had any less support anyway :-/

                                              I've recently applied for a Communications Coordinator position with a regional non-profit society called "Science Opportunities for Kids". Like the Jesuits, I believe in getting at malleable minds early ;>

                                              /Bil:)
                                            • Jim Taylor
                                              ... Magnificent! Especially your final stanza, which should be quoted in every place and time where people try to use this tragedy to defeat the dream ...
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Feb 2, 2003
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                                                > Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 12:00:35 -0800
                                                > From: "D. Keith Howington" <ceo@...>
                                                > Subject: Shuttle lost

                                                Magnificent! Especially your final stanza, which
                                                should be quoted in every place and time where
                                                people try to use this tragedy to defeat the dream
                                                those seven heroes shared:

                                                > Please join with me to tell our team "Push on!"
                                                > We'll bind our wounds, and grow despite our scars.
                                                > We cannot falter, 'ere the chance is gone.
                                                > Our destiny is out among the stars.

                                                Amen! PUSH ON!!! I will happily donate a fixed
                                                percentage of my social security check to help
                                                finance this effort, if only NASA will accept
                                                personal contributions! Do you know anyone I
                                                might write to, about this?

                                                Jim

                                                >
                                                > The Shuttle, the Columbia, is lost.
                                                > The world is shocked, and frozen now in place.
                                                > Already timid souls bemoan the cost
                                                > And feel we should not once more challenge space.
                                                >
                                                > Debris will be discovered, gathered, probed
                                                > And theories will spark, then burst in flame
                                                > Though causes might not ever be disrobed
                                                > Too many will just search for who's to blame.
                                                >
                                                > The seven lost this February morn
                                                > Of many countries scattered 'round the Earth,
                                                > Would wish to see our spirit now reborn
                                                > And keep exploring---go for all we're worth!
                                                >
                                                > The NASA Shuttle program has been stopped.
                                                > It may be years before we can advance.
                                                > But we can't let this ball be simply dropped!
                                                > For future's sake, we have to take the chance.
                                                >
                                                > The veterans Husband, Chawla, Anderson,
                                                > And rookies Brown, Ramon, McCool and Clark
                                                > Add their names to the journey just begun
                                                > And for them, and for us, we'll keep the spark.
                                                >
                                                > More tragedies will challenge our resolve
                                                > And some will shy away from tempting fate.
                                                > But there's no problem here we cannot solve,
                                                > Though risks we cannot all eliminate.
                                                >
                                                > Please join with me to tell our team "Push on!"
                                                > We'll bind our wounds, and grow despite our scars.
                                                > We cannot falter, 'ere the chance is gone.
                                                > Our destiny is out among the stars.
                                                >
                                                > ===|================/ D. Keith Howington, CEO (CEO@...)



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                                              • D. Keith Howington
                                                ... I sorrow for the loss of Shuttle crew; The seven who have blazed a path to space. But for the future lost, I sorrow, too. Inertia seems to petrify our
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Feb 2, 2003
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                                                  Jim Taylor wrote:

                                                  > > Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 12:00:35 -0800
                                                  > > From: "D. Keith Howington" <ceo@...>
                                                  > > Subject: Shuttle lost
                                                  >
                                                  > Magnificent! Especially your final stanza, which
                                                  > should be quoted in every place and time where
                                                  > people try to use this tragedy to defeat the dream
                                                  > those seven heroes shared:
                                                  >
                                                  > > Please join with me to tell our team "Push on!"
                                                  > > We'll bind our wounds, and grow despite our scars.
                                                  > > We cannot falter, 'ere the chance is gone.
                                                  > > Our destiny is out among the stars.
                                                  >
                                                  > Amen! PUSH ON!!! I will happily donate a fixed
                                                  > percentage of my social security check to help
                                                  > finance this effort, if only NASA will accept
                                                  > personal contributions! Do you know anyone I
                                                  > might write to, about this?
                                                  >
                                                  > Jim

                                                  I sorrow for the loss of Shuttle crew;
                                                  The seven who have blazed a path to space.
                                                  But for the future lost, I sorrow, too.
                                                  Inertia seems to petrify our pace.

                                                  It troubles me; I know what we *can* do.
                                                  And yet we don't; the reason's partly fear.
                                                  Three decades past, the future seemed in view,
                                                  But thanks to timid minds, it's now unclear.

                                                  The NASA folks need mandates to explore!
                                                  The planets and the stars await our call.
                                                  But they're reduced to "trucks" and little more.
                                                  The Station's just a building, after all.

                                                  These things should be by private enterprise.
                                                  The costs would be reduced to less than half.
                                                  Let NASA look with visionary eyes,
                                                  Beyond the needs of bureaucratic staff.

                                                  Let's grab an asteroid and make it ours!
                                                  The metals in it would transform our world!
                                                  Let's use the Sun, and redirect its powers!
                                                  With mighty space-borne wings that we've unfurled.

                                                  The Global Warming business goes away!
                                                  For space-based solar power needs no fuel.
                                                  And up in Space, it's always "sunny day"
                                                  Which much improves the solar power tool.

                                                  It costs too much to lift the mass from here.
                                                  On Earth we're at the bottom of a well.
                                                  But grab a passing rock, and now it's clear
                                                  The task becomes much easier to sell.

                                                  The Asteroids and Moon have what we need
                                                  To build enough to power us for good.
                                                  And whether we are moved by faith or greed
                                                  At least we'll move beyond the neighborhood.

                                                  For one day we'll be visited again
                                                  By rocks like those that ended ages past
                                                  And if we're only here, then it's the end.
                                                  Humanity would then have breathed its last.


                                                  And to answer your question a little more directly: A good place to start is ProSpace.org -- it is a "lobbying organization" with no connection to the aerospace industry. All private citizens, like myself, who encourage Washington in the right direction. The next trip is next month, in fact.

                                                  ===|================/ D. Keith Howington, CEO (CEO@...)
                                                • Ian Robinson
                                                  ... As an aside, whilst the move into commercial space endeavours is a worthy goal, there is no need to take solar panels into space. Modern ones are very
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Feb 2, 2003
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                                                    On 3/2/03 4:16 am, "D. Keith Howington" <ceo@...> wrote:

                                                    > The Global Warming business goes away!
                                                    > For space-based solar power needs no fuel.
                                                    > And up in Space, it's always "sunny day"
                                                    > Which much improves the solar power tool.

                                                    As an aside, whilst the move into commercial space endeavours is a worthy
                                                    goal, there is no need to take solar panels into space. Modern ones are very
                                                    efficient, even on cloudy days.

                                                    Was it here that I posted the tidbit that covering Australia with solar
                                                    panels would generate enough power to supply global needs? Put them on the
                                                    sea in various locations around the world and convert solar, wind and wave
                                                    power together.

                                                    Ian
                                                    --
                                                    Ian Robinson - Belfast - UK
                                                    <http://www.canicula.com>
                                                  • D. Keith Howington
                                                    ... Yes. Their efficiency rises to 100% at night. ];-) I keep up on solar research, as this is an area of particular interest of mine. I am following the new
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , Feb 3, 2003
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                                                      Ian Robinson wrote:

                                                      > As an aside, whilst the move into commercial space endeavours is a worthy
                                                      > goal, there is no need to take solar panels into space. Modern ones
                                                      > are very
                                                      > efficient, even on cloudy days.

                                                      Yes. Their efficiency rises to 100% at night. ];-)

                                                      I keep up on solar research, as this is an area of particular interest
                                                      of mine. I am following the new high-temperature cells being developed
                                                      by the Israelis; these look very promising.

                                                      But as you've noted, a continent-sized solar array is required. It is
                                                      not particularly practical, even distributed around the globe. And in a
                                                      few years, our electrical requirements will have doubled, even as we run
                                                      out of continents.

                                                      To a certain extent, they can help. But they will not be able to
                                                      shoulder a significant part of the load. I note with interest that of
                                                      the sources of power we've been using--coal, petroleum, natural gas,
                                                      hydroelectric, nuclear--that solar power does not even rate a line on
                                                      the graph. Wind turbines have spun for a while, but seem to be winding
                                                      down in the absence of government subsidies, and they've never been a
                                                      significant power source.

                                                      There is no reason to assume that our civilization will freeze after a
                                                      century of extraordinary growth. And solar power development in space
                                                      will help on the ground, and vice versa.

                                                      The biggest advantage is concentration. The receiving antennae for SPS
                                                      systems are a tiny fraction of the size required for solar arrays on the
                                                      ground (and in fact, the solar arrays in space will be large). Also, of
                                                      course, the SPS receiving antenna will work at night.

                                                      > Was it here that I posted the tidbit that covering Australia with solar
                                                      > panels would generate enough power to supply global needs? Put them on the
                                                      > sea in various locations around the world and convert solar, wind and wave
                                                      > power together.

                                                      The sea is a rather corrosive environment; the offshore sea turbines,
                                                      for example, present massive maintenance difficulties. An array of
                                                      floating platform of thousands of square miles each would be involved.
                                                      It's possible, of course, but is itself a macroproject. And this "real
                                                      estate" would not likely hold only a layer of photo voltaic cells;
                                                      people would want to be there. That's not a terrible idea in itself,
                                                      but it complicates things and the platform may not ultimately be a net
                                                      producer of energy. If if it is, the scale of such things makes it
                                                      daunting.

                                                      ===|================/ D. Keith Howington, CEO (CEO@...)
                                                    • Anne Gilbert
                                                      Bil: 50*F and sunny today (Feb 2). No snow in the Valley bottom, but in 45 minutes I can be boarding on the some of the finest champagne powder in the world.
                                                      Message 26 of 27 , Feb 3, 2003
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                                                        Bil:

                                                        50*F and sunny today (Feb 2). No snow in the Valley bottom, but in 45 minutes I can be boarding on the some of the finest champagne powder in the world.

                                                        Dunno what part of BC you live in, but if you've been having a warmer than usual winter so far, well, so has Western Washington. And we've had less snow than usual.  El Nino is rocking on!
                                                        Anne G
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