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Re: Two Americans

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  • david_windhorst
    ... I ve not looked in to the minutiae of this, but in the recent past -- and maybe even now, depending on the specifics -- collecting rainwater could get you
    Message 1 of 20 , Nov 1, 2011
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      --- In DebunkCreation@yahoogroups.com, Mike Torsberg <miket6562@...> wrote:
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      > ________________________________
      > From: Brian van der Spuy <brianvds@...>
      > To: debunkcreation <debunkcreation@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2011 5:31 AM
      > Subject: [DebunkCreation] Re: Two Americans
      >
      >
      >  
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      > [[[Re: Two Americans
      >    Posted by: "Mike Torsberg" miket6562@... miket6562
      >    Date: Fri Oct 28, 2011 4:29 am ((PDT))
      > >That sounds like Florida.  We've been under water restrictions for years, and a couple of days ago the water management district in our area said they're going to continue through spring because we once again didn't get enough rain this year.  We "only" received about 50 inches (125 cm) so far this year - normal is around 45 inches.  Farmers and massive growth sucking the aquifer dry has nothing to do with our water problems... it's the lack of rain.]]]
      >
      > >---Jeez, how much water do you folks use then? We get half as much rain, and we seem to get by. Of course, it remains to be seen whether we'll still get by once we have turned all our current poor people into middle class ones...
      >
      > It is suburbia that causes most of the problems.  We have lots of massive new developments that require the homeowners to maintain pretty green lawns.  To do that, the homeowners have to fertilize, apply pesticides and water like crazy.  Unfortunately, many of the homeowners are either too lazy or too stupid to turn off their sprinkler systems during the rainy season.  They also don't know how to water, which causes much of the pesticides and fertilizers to wash off the lawns into the ecosystem and cause great damage. 
      >
      > Farms are the other big problem.  We really have two seasons in Florida - Hot and wet, and not so hot and dry.  Most of the crops that are grown here do much better during the not so hot and dry season, but those crops do need lots of water, so farmers do a lot of irrigating.  And, during the rare cold spells, farmers spray a lot of water on the crops for protection.
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      > We do get a lot of rain, but only a small portion makes it into the aquifer.  Most just runs off into the ocean or evaporates to become more rain.  It does seem weird that we can have more water problems than places that get a half or a third as much rain as we do, but this is Florida... nothing is normal.
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      > >I would think one thing that might help is to catch rain water from your own roof in a tank. Even with a smallish roof, a thousand millimeters of rain per year translates into a remarkably large amount of water. E.g. on a 10m x 10m roof, it means 100 000 liters of water, or over 270 liters per day, which is a not trivial fraction of a household's needs (or more than enough, if you live modestly). But from what I hear, doing that is actually illegal in many parts of the U.S. 
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      > I don't know if it is illegal or not, but not very many people employ rain collection systems.  Even if they were just used to water lawns, it would be a big help.
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      > Mike Torsberg
      >  

      I've not looked in to the minutiae of this, but in the recent past -- and maybe even now, depending on the specifics -- collecting rainwater could get you into trouble in the American West:

      http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/29/us/29rain.html

      dw
    • Brian van der Spuy
      [[[Re: Two Americans Posted by: david_windhorst dbwindhorst@gmail.com david_windhorst Date: Tue Nov 1, 2011 5:51 am ((PDT)) I ve not looked in to the
      Message 2 of 20 , Nov 2, 2011
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        [[[Re: Two Americans
           Posted by: "david_windhorst" dbwindhorst@... david_windhorst
           Date: Tue Nov 1, 2011 5:51 am ((PDT))
        I've not looked in to the minutiae of this, but in the recent past -- and maybe even now, depending on the specifics -- collecting rainwater could get you into trouble in the American West:
        http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/29/us/29rain.html]]]

        ---Seems like an utterly ridiculous law. I can't quite work out what the rationale behind it was either.


        -- 
        Brian
        http://brianvds.blogspot.com/




      • Mike Torsberg
        Brian - It s all about politics and power in the old west.  He who controlled the water controlled the land, and by filing claims on a few watering holes, a
        Message 3 of 20 , Nov 2, 2011
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          Brian - It's all about politics and power in the old west.  He who controlled the water controlled the land, and by filing claims on a few watering holes, a rancher could control a vast area.  He needed that vast area, because the land itself could only support a couple of head of cattle per acre, and he needed the water, because, of course, without water, the cattle would die.  The land was also good for farming, but only with water, so farmers tried to get as much as possible.  The problem was, the cattle ranchers were first, and got all of the good watering holes that weren't rivers.  So, most of the farming ended up near river beds, and farmers that were downstream were constantly fighting upstream farmers to make sure the upstream farmers wouldn't take all of the water.  The end result was a bunch of laws that strictly governed all water use to make sure the various sides wouldn't go to war against each other to get the water they needed.  Water was the limiting resource in the U.S. West, and because of that, rules governing the use of water became extremely important.
           
          Mike Torsberg

          From: Brian van der Spuy <brianvds@...>
          To: debunkcreation <debunkcreation@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Wednesday, November 2, 2011 5:39 AM
          Subject: [DebunkCreation] Re: Two Americans

           
          [[[Re: Two Americans
             Posted by: "david_windhorst" dbwindhorst@... david_windhorst
             Date: Tue Nov 1, 2011 5:51 am ((PDT))
          I've not looked in to the minutiae of this, but in the recent past -- and maybe even now, depending on the specifics -- collecting rainwater could get you into trouble in the American West:
          http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/29/us/29rain.html]]]

          ---Seems like an utterly ridiculous law. I can't quite work out what the rationale behind it was either.


          -- 
          Brian
          http://brianvds.blogspot.com/






        • Brian van der Spuy
          [[[Re: Two Americans Posted by: Mike Torsberg miket6562@yahoo.com miket6562 Date: Wed Nov 2, 2011 7:24 am ((PDT)) Brian - It s all about politics and power
          Message 4 of 20 , Nov 3, 2011
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             [[[Re: Two Americans
               Posted by: "Mike Torsberg" miket6562@... miket6562
               Date: Wed Nov 2, 2011 7:24 am ((PDT))
            Brian - It's all about politics and power in the old west.  He who controlled the water controlled the land, and by filing claims on a few watering holes, a rancher could control a vast area.  He needed that vast area, because the land itself could only support a couple of head of cattle per acre, and he needed the water, because, of course, without water, the cattle would die.  The land was also good for farming, but only with water, so farmers tried to get as much as possible.  The problem was, the cattle ranchers were first, and got all of the good watering holes that weren't rivers.  So, most of the farming ended up near river beds, and farmers that were downstream were constantly fighting upstream farmers to make sure the upstream farmers wouldn't take all of the water.  The end result was a bunch of laws that strictly governed all water use to make sure the various sides wouldn't go to war against each other to get the water they needed. 
             Water was the limiting resource in the U.S. West, and because of that, rules governing the use of water became extremely important.]]]

            ---But it still does not make sense to me why they would ban rainwater collection from my own roof. How would that help anyone else?


            --
            Brian
            http://brianvds.blogspot.com/




          • Mike Torsberg
            ________________________________ From: Brian van der Spuy To: debunkcreation Sent: Thursday, November 3,
            Message 5 of 20 , Nov 3, 2011
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              From: Brian van der Spuy <brianvds@...>
              To: debunkcreation <debunkcreation@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thursday, November 3, 2011 6:42 AM
              Subject: [DebunkCreation] Re: Two Americans

               
              ---But it still does not make sense to me why they would ban rainwater collection from my own roof. How would that help anyone else?
               
              Because the water, in theory, eventually reaches a stream or river, so by stealing it as runoff, you are depriving someone miles away of the water.  But the big reason is power.  It was just another way for the rich powerful landowners to control the things the "little" people did.  Plus, when water is limited, you can charge people a lot to use that water.  Using runoff circumvents that, and cutting off profits from the powerful is a very bad thing....
               
              Mike Torsberg
            • Brian van der Spuy
              [[[Re: Two Americans Posted by: Mike Torsberg miket6562@yahoo.com miket6562 Date: Thu Nov 3, 2011 6:02 am ((PDT)) Because the water, in theory, eventually
              Message 6 of 20 , Nov 4, 2011
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                [[[Re: Two Americans
                   Posted by: "Mike Torsberg" miket6562@... miket6562
                   Date: Thu Nov 3, 2011 6:02 am ((PDT))
                Because the water, in theory, eventually reaches a stream or river, so by stealing it as runoff, you are depriving someone miles away of the water. ]]]

                ---Indeed, but I would have to use the water anyway. Either I collect it directly from my roof, or I allow it to run into a river or aquifer and then pump it from the river or aquifer. I'm going to use a certain amount of water either way, thus depriving someone else of it. One might as well argue that I'm not allowed to eat tomatoes from my own garden because it deprives someone else. The irony is that if I pump water from a river or aquifer I'm probably going to end up using far more of it, in a far more wasteful manner, than if I am dependent on rainwater from my roof alone.

                [[[ But the big reason is power.  It was just another way for the rich powerful landowners to control the things the "little" people did.  Plus, when water is limited, you can charge people a lot to use that water.  Using runoff circumvents that, and cutting off profits from the powerful is a very bad thing....]]]

                ---Now that makes more sense... ;-)


                --
                Brian
                http://brianvds.blogspot.com/




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