Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Leo Behe interviewed by THE HUMANIST

Expand Messages
  • cftbq
    What a mess. I would find it ironic and amusing, too, if not for the fact that I m not at all sure that fundamentalist stupidity has actually
    Message 1 of 6 , Sep 1, 2011
    • 0 Attachment
      <Cringe> What a mess. I would find it ironic and amusing, too, if not for the fact that I'm not at all sure that fundamentalist stupidity has actually generated many new atheists. They've surely ticked off lots of people, but I don't see most of those people finally ending up as atheists. Instead, they seem to end up as vague doubters who sense that something's wrong with the overall debate, but can't figure out just what it is. It's certainly true that most of the atheist "establishment" (insofar as there is such a thing...) is weirdly "preachy" in its own way and, understandably, unpersuasive to most of the population. Of course, that just *might* be related to the fact that most of them fall back into a rather stereotypical political liberalism (in the modern sense) which offers little if anything of intellectual substance to a real free spirit looking for a new solution to humanity's problems...
      And now I understand better why you, Lenny, could possibly pigeon-hole *me* as a "fundie," since I am a rather militant atheist. Science show us how the world is really constructed, whereas religion and mysticism (to use Rand's term) simply help us to believe that we were right all along in our intuition-based beliefs.

      --P

      --- In DebunkCreation@yahoogroups.com, Lenny Flank <lflank@...> wrote:
      >
      > I find it ironic (and amusing) that the fundies have converted far more fundies to atheism than the atheists have. The fundies pay no attention tob the atheist sermons, but they do take to heart the unceasing refrain that if any part of the Bible is wrong then there is no god. Once any fundie starts doubting anything, they are inexorably led by their own ideology to embrace atheism.
      >
      > Alas though most of them still retain their black and white worldview, and are just as much intolerant ideologue pricks as they were before. They're still fundies; they've simply changed what they are fundamentalist about. (Shrug)
      >
      > Lenny Flank
      >
      > On Wed Aug 31st, 2011 1:18 PM EDT humancarol@... wrote:
      >
      > >http://thehumanist.org/september-october-2011/the-humanist-interview-with-leo-behe/
      > >The HumanistInterview with Leo BeheThe son of intelligent design heavyweight Michael Behe discusses his journey to atheism
      > >by: Ryan Shaffer
      > >Published in the September / October 2011Humanist
      >
    • david_windhorst
      ... As a former Protestant fundie, now atheist, I ll have to admit to some of that. Although in my case, the circumstances that got me started shifting from
      Message 2 of 6 , Sep 1, 2011
      • 0 Attachment
        --- In DebunkCreation@yahoogroups.com, Lenny Flank <lflank@...> wrote:
        >
        > I find it ironic (and amusing) that the fundies have converted far more fundies to atheism than the atheists have. The fundies pay no attention tob the atheist sermons, but they do take to heart the unceasing refrain that if any part of the Bible is wrong then there is no god. Once any fundie starts doubting anything, they are inexorably led by their own ideology to embrace atheism.
        >
        > Alas though most of them still retain their black and white worldview, and are just as much intolerant ideologue pricks as they were before. They're still fundies; they've simply changed what they are fundamentalist about. (Shrug)
        >
        > Lenny Flank

        As a former Protestant fundie, now atheist, I'll have to admit to some of that. Although in my case, the circumstances that got me started shifting from one end of the belief spectrum to the other -- which took a decade or so -- probably would have had the same effect whatever faith I'd been following to start with.

        Maybe it's a basic human trait, e.g. former smokers. The most virulently anti-Catholic person in my acquaintance way back when was a Baptist pastor, formerly Catholic, who walked out on a wedding he was supposed to be conducting, just because the piano soloist started playing "Ave Maria" during the rehearsal.

        But behavior falls along a spectrum too. If I had to fill out a survey form on belief, the result would probably make me look a lot more intolerant than in reality. I still get along fine with my ardently religious relatives (although some of them are Methodists, including a brother-in-law who's a minister, and they're hardly fundies [and some of those Methodists are former Baptists who just wanted to be able to drink beer without so much hassle]), and am a member of a local humanist group that participates in some Baptist-run charities.

        There's another basic human trait for you: people love to claim that they're exceptions.

        dw
      • Lenny Flank
        I can only speak from experience. The number of fundies that I have seen give up fundamentalism is not great, but every one of them without exception became
        Message 3 of 6 , Sep 1, 2011
        • 0 Attachment
          I can only speak from experience. The number of fundies that I have seen give up fundamentalism is not great, but every one of them without exception became atheists.

          As for my "pigeonholing" of you, you either aren't paying attention or you simply view everything around you the way you want to see it (a not uncommon trait amongst hardcore ideologues). I do not recall ever charaxterizing you as a religious fundie nor can I think of any logical reason why I would--libertarians tend to reject religious authority just as they reject other authority.

          But there are many things one can be "fundamentalist" about, and "libertarianism" is one of them. Sadly, all fundie ideologues tend to be the same, no matter what ideology it is that they are fundamentalist about.

          Lenny Flank

          On Thu Sep 1st, 2011 1:04 PM EDT cftbq wrote:

          ><Cringe> What a mess. I would find it ironic and amusing, too, if not for the fact that I'm not at all sure that fundamentalist stupidity has actually generated many new atheists. They've surely ticked off lots of people, but I don't see most of those people finally ending up as atheists. Instead, they seem to end up as vague doubters who sense that something's wrong with the overall debate, but can't figure out just what it is. It's certainly true that most of the atheist "establishment" (insofar as there is such a thing...) is weirdly "preachy" in its own way and, understandably, unpersuasive to most of the population. Of course, that just *might* be related to the fact that most of them fall back into a rather stereotypical political liberalism (in the modern sense) which offers little if anything of intellectual substance to a real free spirit looking for a new solution to humanity's problems...
          >And now I understand better why you, Lenny, could possibly pigeon-hole *me* as a "fundie," since I am a rather militant atheist. Science show us how the world is really constructed, whereas religion and mysticism (to use Rand's term) simply help us to believe that we were right all along in our intuition-based beliefs.
          >
          >--P
          >
          >--- In DebunkCreation@yahoogroups.com, Lenny Flank <lflank@...> wrote:
          >>
          >> I find it ironic (and amusing) that the fundies have converted far more fundies to atheism than the atheists have. The fundies pay no attention tob the atheist sermons, but they do take to heart the unceasing refrain that if any part of the Bible is wrong then there is no god. Once any fundie starts doubting anything, they are inexorably led by their own ideology to embrace atheism.
          >>
          >> Alas though most of them still retain their black and white worldview, and are just as much intolerant ideologue pricks as they were before. They're still fundies; they've simply changed what they are fundamentalist about. (Shrug)
          >>
          >> Lenny Flank
          >>
          >> On Wed Aug 31st, 2011 1:18 PM EDT humancarol@... wrote:
          >>
          >> >http://thehumanist.org/september-october-2011/the-humanist-interview-with-leo-behe/
          >> >The HumanistInterview with Leo BeheThe son of intelligent design heavyweight Michael Behe discusses his journey to atheism
          >> >by: Ryan Shaffer
          >> >Published in the September / October 2011Humanist
          >>
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >------------------------------------
          >
          >Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
        • Lenny Flank
            ... Yep--most of the virulent neocons are former Trotskyites.   Another human trait seems to be that we hate most in others what we like least about
          Message 4 of 6 , Sep 1, 2011
          • 0 Attachment

             

            > From: david_windhorst <dbwindhorst@...>

            > Maybe it's a basic human trait, e.g. former smokers.  The most virulently
            > anti-Catholic person in my acquaintance way back when was a Baptist pastor,
            > formerly Catholic, who walked out on a wedding he was supposed to be conducting,
            > just because the piano soloist started playing "Ave Maria" during the
            > rehearsal.



            Yep--most of the virulent neocons are former Trotskyites.  

            Another human trait seems to be that we hate most in others what we like least about ourselves--witness how many of the most frothing-at-the-mouth anti-gays turned out to be closeted themselves and end up getting caught in airport bathroom stalls.

            Humans are strange animals.


            ================================================
            Lenny Flank
            "There are no loose threads in the web of life"

            Editor, Red and Black Publishers 
            http://www.RedandBlackPublishers.com
          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.