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  • monteb27@yahoo.com
    Just curious, has anyone went to a school board meeting just to stir the pot a bit. I don t have children yet, but i would be horrified to find out that
    Message 1 of 9 , Jan 3, 2001
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      Just curious, has anyone went to a school board meeting just to stir
      the pot a bit. I don't have children yet, but i would be horrified
      to find out that evolution is even being questioned in a science
      class. i live in the michigan upper penninsula(bible thumping
      central)and after talking with several people a good chunk actually
      buy into the creation nonsense. I think it might be time to go see
      exactley what is being taught in the area schools. I should have my
      geology degree in the spring, and i do intend to teach some day.
      Just curious how one goes about getting things like this
      discussed. Brian
    • Liz Craig
      Here in Kansas, a regular contingent of members of Kansas Citizens For Science goes to State Board of Education meetings each month. Creationists are also in
      Message 2 of 9 , Jan 4, 2001
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        Here in Kansas, a regular contingent of members of Kansas Citizens For
        Science goes to State Board of Education meetings each month.
        Creationists are also in attendance, of course. They're still trying to
        convince the Board of Education members to retain the
        creationist-tainted standards the old Board adopted a year ago in
        August. No dice. The voters made sure there's a pro-science majority on
        the Board now.

        At the local level, ID proponents have been working on the Pratt, KS
        school board for about a year to change their science standards to
        include "other theories." They finally succeeded in getting their way,
        despite protests from the science teachers and others. But when the
        state Board re-adopts quality science standards, Pratt may have to drop
        the ID-friendly standards they have now.

        I would strongly advise going to a school board meeting now and then to
        make sure creationists are not campaigning for "other theories" to be
        taught, or trying to get the ID book, "Of Pandas and People," adopted
        as a "supplement" to the biology textbooks. They are relentless.

        Liz


        --- monteb27@... wrote:
        > Just curious, has anyone went to a school board meeting just to stir
        > the pot a bit. I don't have children yet, but i would be horrified
        > to find out that evolution is even being questioned in a science
        > class. i live in the michigan upper penninsula(bible thumping
        > central)and after talking with several people a good chunk actually
        > buy into the creation nonsense. I think it might be time to go see
        > exactley what is being taught in the area schools. I should have my
        > geology degree in the spring, and i do intend to teach some day.
        > Just curious how one goes about getting things like this
        > discussed. Brian
        >
        >


        =====
        ---------------------------------------------


        The larger the island of knowledge, the longer the shoreline of wonder.-- Ralph W. Sockman

        __________________________________________________
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      • lflank@ij.net
        ... I ve been at school board meetings where the possibility of adding creationist books as supplemental texts was being discussed. . . That s actually how I
        Message 3 of 9 , Jan 4, 2001
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          On 4 Jan 01, at 5:41, monteb27@... wrote:

          > Just curious, has anyone went to a school board meeting just to stir
          > the pot a bit. I don't have children yet, but i would be horrified to
          > find out that evolution is even being questioned in a science class.
          > i live in the michigan upper penninsula(bible thumping central)and
          > after talking with several people a good chunk actually buy into the
          > creation nonsense. I think it might be time to go see exactley what
          > is being taught in the area schools. I should have my geology degree
          > in the spring, and i do intend to teach some day. Just curious how
          > one goes about getting things like this discussed. Brian
          >


          I've been at school board meetings where the possibility of adding
          creationist books as "supplemental texts" was being discussed. . .

          That's actually how I got started with all this. Back in 1982, a local
          school board in Pennsylvania was talking about adding some of
          Gish's crap to its science classes. Along with a local UCC
          minister, I organized a local group to stop them. We went to board
          meetings, raised money, used the local press, did "teach-ins", and
          other grass-roots sort of stuff. When we were finished, not only did
          the proposed "supplemental texts" and "balanced treatment"
          disappear, but all three of the school board members who were
          pushing it lost re-election by a huge margin.


          =======================================================
          Lenny Flank
          "There are no loose threads in the web of life"

          Check out my reptile page:
          http://www.geocities.com/lflank/herp.html
          Suncoast Serpentarium
          http://www.geocities.com/suncoastserpentarium/
          Creation "Science" Debunked:
          http://www.geocities.com/lflank
        • Jim Taylor
          ... Jim: While different school boards use differing rules and agenda at their meetings, so long as the meeting is open to the public there must be some point
          Message 4 of 9 , Jan 4, 2001
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            > Message: 1
            > Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 05:41:54 -0000
            > From: monteb27@...
            > Subject: school boards
            >
            > Just curious, has anyone went to a school board meeting just to stir
            > the pot a bit. I don't have children yet, but i would be horrified
            > to find out that evolution is even being questioned in a science
            > class. i live in the michigan upper penninsula(bible thumping
            > central)and after talking with several people a good chunk actually
            > buy into the creation nonsense. I think it might be time to go see
            > exactley what is being taught in the area schools. I should have my
            > geology degree in the spring, and i do intend to teach some day.
            > Just curious how one goes about getting things like this
            > discussed. Brian

            Jim:
            While different school boards use differing rules and agenda at their
            meetings, so long as the meeting is open to the public there must be
            some point at which members of the public can ask questions and
            express their own views on issues of their own choice. It was at
            a local school board meeting that I was given information which
            allowed me to locate and download the science education standards
            for my state, Colorado, and I learned to my horror that there was
            no requirement that evolution be taught in any science course in
            Colorado. While the Kansas State School Board was noisily lowering
            the science standards in Kansas, the Colorado State School Board
            had already quietly done the same thing in Colorado!

            Of course, the only way they were able to keep this quiet was by
            making sure that nobody who would oppose this had any idea that it
            was being done.

            This is one of the reasons why I homeschool my daughter, and thus I
            am able to see to it that the standards of her science curricula and
            practica meet my own standards for excellence. Unfortunately, what
            works for me won't work for the majority of families, where both
            parents work full-time jobs outside the home. This is why it's
            vitally important for parents to know, first, what teachers are
            required to teach and, second, what they actually do teach. I am
            currently a member of a list where a man teaching high-school level
            biology in the public schools is a rabid Creationist who teaches
            typical Creationist claims to his students in defiance of the law
            of the land. If you think this is a rare phenomenon, guess again.
            It's entirely too common, and most parents are totally unaware of
            this.


            __________________________________________________
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            Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
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          • ANNE V. GILBERT
            ... night. ... I live in Seattle, Washington. AFAIK, there have been no attempts by creationists to take over the Seattle school board, although there are
            Message 5 of 9 , Jan 4, 2001
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              Jack, Lenny, and all:

              > And it can happen anywhere. These people are determined to subvert the
              > Constitution and the Federal Courts at the local level.
              >
              > One of the first, I believe, was in Vista, CA, a nice, prosperous suburban
              > town just north of San Diego. The board got taken over by the fundies and
              > created a real furor when the sane parents began screaming at them. There
              > was a documentary about the fundies and their agenda on TV the other
              night.
              > Mike Wallace/20th Century, I believe. The school board reminded me of the
              > Nazi kangaroo courts or the Stalin purges. It became clear that it was all
              > about temporal power.

              I live in Seattle, Washington. AFAIK, there have been no attempts by
              creationists to take over the Seattle school board, although there are some
              pretty conservative people on it. If they ever do, you can rest assured I
              will attend one of their meetings, and I will do everything in my power to
              stop them.
              Anne G
            • Michael Suttkus
              ... Everything should be questioned, especially what you believe in most. However: 1) Teachers must be aware of the answers 2) Questions should be rational
              Message 6 of 9 , Jan 4, 2001
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                monteb27@... wrote:
                >
                > Just curious, has anyone went to a school board meeting just to stir
                > the pot a bit. I don't have children yet, but i would be horrified
                > to find out that evolution is even being questioned in a science
                > class.

                Everything should be questioned, especially what you believe in most.

                However:

                1) Teachers must be aware of the answers

                2) Questions should be rational and reasonable. ("Oh yeah?" is
                technically a question, but not a valuable one to science.)

                and

                3) Students must be taught how to question. The very nature of
                science is about asking questions and how to look for the answers. The
                scientific method should not be a list of steps memorized for the test
                at the end of the first week and then forgotten as science class is
                taught as a series of rote facts.

                I would like to see a science class where every student's question is
                answered by "Good question, how would we go about finding the answer?
                Can anyone think of an experiment?" I know this isn't practical, but I
                can dream, right?

                I don't want to sound like I'm jumping down your throat over a minor
                issue, but I don't think it's minor. Besides, we occasionally see
                posts like this as a baited trap from creationists. The trick being
                that if you respond with anything like agreement, the stealth
                creationist responds with "See! They can't stand anyone to question
                their irrational religion evolution! They aren't really science like
                we are!" (As if a creationist ever tried questioning their religion.
                Weird.)

                > i live in the michigan upper penninsula(bible thumping central)

                Now I'm a bit confused.

                Various people have identified the following places as "Bible thumping
                central" or "The buckle of the Bible Belt":

                Florida
                Louisiana
                Georgia
                Alabama
                Carolina (both)
                Virginia (both)

                And now Michigan. I'm a hair confused. How can all these places be
                the center of Bible thumping? Geometrically, there's only one possible
                answer and frankly I don't like it. :-)



                =====
                "Tactics is knowing what to do when there is something to do.
                Strategy is knowing what to do when there is nothing to do."
                - Savielly Tartakover, Chess Grandmaster

                http://www.geocities.com/suttkus/

                __________________________________________________
                Do You Yahoo!?
                Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
                http://photos.yahoo.com/
              • monteb27@yahoo.com
                OK, let me re-phrase the Bible Thumping. Very gun toting, racist, ultra conservative. No this isn t a creationist trap. brian ... stir ... horrified ...
                Message 7 of 9 , Jan 4, 2001
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                  OK, let me re-phrase the Bible Thumping. Very gun toting, racist,
                  ultra conservative. No this isn't a creationist trap. brian







                  --- In DebunkCreation@egroups.com, Michael Suttkus <suttkus@y...>
                  wrote:
                  > monteb27@y... wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Just curious, has anyone went to a school board meeting just to
                  stir
                  > > the pot a bit. I don't have children yet, but i would be
                  horrified
                  > > to find out that evolution is even being questioned in a science
                  > > class.
                  >
                  > Everything should be questioned, especially what you believe in
                  most.
                  >
                  > However:
                  >
                  > 1) Teachers must be aware of the answers
                  >
                  > 2) Questions should be rational and reasonable. ("Oh yeah?" is
                  > technically a question, but not a valuable one to science.)
                  >
                  > and
                  >
                  > 3) Students must be taught how to question. The very nature of
                  > science is about asking questions and how to look for the answers.
                  The
                  > scientific method should not be a list of steps memorized for the
                  test
                  > at the end of the first week and then forgotten as science class is
                  > taught as a series of rote facts.
                  >
                  > I would like to see a science class where every student's question
                  is
                  > answered by "Good question, how would we go about finding the
                  answer?
                  > Can anyone think of an experiment?" I know this isn't practical,
                  but I
                  > can dream, right?
                  >
                  > I don't want to sound like I'm jumping down your throat over a minor
                  > issue, but I don't think it's minor. Besides, we occasionally see
                  > posts like this as a baited trap from creationists. The trick being
                  > that if you respond with anything like agreement, the stealth
                  > creationist responds with "See! They can't stand anyone to question
                  > their irrational religion evolution! They aren't really science
                  like
                  > we are!" (As if a creationist ever tried questioning their
                  religion.
                  > Weird.)
                  >
                  > > i live in the michigan upper penninsula(bible thumping central)
                  >
                  > Now I'm a bit confused.
                  >
                  > Various people have identified the following places as "Bible
                  thumping
                  > central" or "The buckle of the Bible Belt":
                  >
                  > Florida
                  > Louisiana
                  > Georgia
                  > Alabama
                  > Carolina (both)
                  > Virginia (both)
                  >
                  > And now Michigan. I'm a hair confused. How can all these places be
                  > the center of Bible thumping? Geometrically, there's only one
                  possible
                  > answer and frankly I don't like it. :-)
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > =====
                  > "Tactics is knowing what to do when there is something to do.
                  > Strategy is knowing what to do when there is nothing to do."
                  > - Savielly Tartakover, Chess Grandmaster
                  >
                  > http://www.geocities.com/suttkus/
                  >
                  > __________________________________________________
                  > Do You Yahoo!?
                  > Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
                  > http://photos.yahoo.com/
                • Liz Craig
                  Kansas is Bible-thumping country. Nebraska is Bible-thumping country. Missouri is also Bible-thumping country (home of John Ashcroft). Fundamentalism is
                  Message 8 of 9 , Jan 4, 2001
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                    Kansas is Bible-thumping country. Nebraska is Bible-thumping country.
                    Missouri is also Bible-thumping country (home of John Ashcroft).

                    Fundamentalism is growing in this country. Faced with a world that
                    grows ever more complex and perplexing, with questions that grow ever
                    more difficult, many people want to have certain answers, and
                    fundamentalism provides "the truth."

                    Pennsylvania just passed ID-friendly science standards. It's
                    everywhere. Everywhere ignorance thrives, and when people get into
                    fundamentalism, essentially, they stop thinking. Thinking anything
                    other than what the preacher tells them to think could send them to
                    hell. Quite a good scheme, don't you think?

                    Liz

                    --- Michael Suttkus <suttkus@...> wrote:
                    > monteb27@... wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Just curious, has anyone went to a school board meeting just to
                    > stir
                    > > the pot a bit. I don't have children yet, but i would be horrified
                    >
                    > > to find out that evolution is even being questioned in a science
                    > > class.
                    >
                    > Everything should be questioned, especially what you believe in most.
                    >
                    > However:
                    >
                    > 1) Teachers must be aware of the answers
                    >
                    > 2) Questions should be rational and reasonable. ("Oh yeah?" is
                    > technically a question, but not a valuable one to science.)
                    >
                    > and
                    >
                    > 3) Students must be taught how to question. The very nature of
                    > science is about asking questions and how to look for the answers.
                    > The
                    > scientific method should not be a list of steps memorized for the
                    > test
                    > at the end of the first week and then forgotten as science class is
                    > taught as a series of rote facts.
                    >
                    > I would like to see a science class where every student's question is
                    > answered by "Good question, how would we go about finding the answer?
                    >
                    > Can anyone think of an experiment?" I know this isn't practical, but
                    > I
                    > can dream, right?
                    >
                    > I don't want to sound like I'm jumping down your throat over a minor
                    > issue, but I don't think it's minor. Besides, we occasionally see
                    > posts like this as a baited trap from creationists. The trick being
                    > that if you respond with anything like agreement, the stealth
                    > creationist responds with "See! They can't stand anyone to question
                    > their irrational religion evolution! They aren't really science like
                    > we are!" (As if a creationist ever tried questioning their religion.
                    > Weird.)
                    >
                    > > i live in the michigan upper penninsula(bible thumping central)
                    >
                    > Now I'm a bit confused.
                    >
                    > Various people have identified the following places as "Bible
                    > thumping
                    > central" or "The buckle of the Bible Belt":
                    >
                    > Florida
                    > Louisiana
                    > Georgia
                    > Alabama
                    > Carolina (both)
                    > Virginia (both)
                    >
                    > And now Michigan. I'm a hair confused. How can all these places be
                    > the center of Bible thumping? Geometrically, there's only one
                    > possible
                    > answer and frankly I don't like it. :-)
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > =====
                    > "Tactics is knowing what to do when there is something to do.
                    > Strategy is knowing what to do when there is nothing to do."
                    > - Savielly Tartakover, Chess Grandmaster
                    >
                    > http://www.geocities.com/suttkus/
                    >
                    > __________________________________________________
                    > Do You Yahoo!?
                    > Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
                    > http://photos.yahoo.com/
                    >


                    =====
                    ---------------------------------------------


                    The larger the island of knowledge, the longer the shoreline of wonder.-- Ralph W. Sockman

                    __________________________________________________
                    Do You Yahoo!?
                    Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
                    http://photos.yahoo.com/
                  • Jack Sullivan
                    ... And it can happen anywhere. These people are determined to subvert the Constitution and the Federal Courts at the local level. One of the first, I believe,
                    Message 9 of 9 , Jan 4, 2001
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                      lflank@... wrote:

                      > On 4 Jan 01, at 5:41, monteb27@... wrote:
                      >
                      > > Just curious, has anyone went to a school board meeting just to stir
                      > > the pot a bit. I don't have children yet, but i would be horrified to
                      > > find out that evolution is even being questioned in a science class.
                      > > i live in the michigan upper penninsula(bible thumping central)and
                      > > after talking with several people a good chunk actually buy into the
                      > > creation nonsense. I think it might be time to go see exactley what
                      > > is being taught in the area schools. I should have my geology degree
                      > > in the spring, and i do intend to teach some day. Just curious how
                      > > one goes about getting things like this discussed. Brian
                      > >
                      >
                      > I've been at school board meetings where the possibility of adding
                      > creationist books as "supplemental texts" was being discussed. . .
                      >
                      > That's actually how I got started with all this. Back in 1982, a local
                      > school board in Pennsylvania was talking about adding some of
                      > Gish's crap to its science classes. Along with a local UCC
                      > minister, I organized a local group to stop them. We went to board
                      > meetings, raised money, used the local press, did "teach-ins", and
                      > other grass-roots sort of stuff. When we were finished, not only did
                      > the proposed "supplemental texts" and "balanced treatment"
                      > disappear, but all three of the school board members who were
                      > pushing it lost re-election by a huge margin.
                      >
                      > =======================================================
                      > Lenny Flank
                      > "There are no loose threads in the web of life"
                      >
                      >

                      And it can happen anywhere. These people are determined to subvert the
                      Constitution and the Federal Courts at the local level.

                      One of the first, I believe, was in Vista, CA, a nice, prosperous suburban
                      town just north of San Diego. The board got taken over by the fundies and
                      created a real furor when the sane parents began screaming at them. There
                      was a documentary about the fundies and their agenda on TV the other night.
                      Mike Wallace/20th Century, I believe. The school board reminded me of the
                      Nazi kangaroo courts or the Stalin purges. It became clear that it was all
                      about temporal power.
                      --
                      Jack Sullivan
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