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Radio Interface for DV-DONGLE operation

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  • Klaus
    Hello, maybe somebody is interested in seeing my interface for connecting DV-DONGLE operating PC to analogue two way radio: http://www.kh-gps.de/keyb-if.htm 73
    Message 1 of 19 , Oct 16, 2009
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      Hello,
      maybe somebody is interested in seeing my interface for connecting DV-DONGLE operating PC to analogue two way radio:
      http://www.kh-gps.de/keyb-if.htm

      73 de Klaus, DJ7OO
    • Tony Langdon
      ... Klaus, you may run into some resistance for good reasons. I have it from Robin that there may be legal issues in some countries (there is one here, but
      Message 2 of 19 , Oct 17, 2009
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        At 12:36 AM 10/17/2009, you wrote:
        >Hello,
        >maybe somebody is interested in seeing my interface for connecting
        >DV-DONGLE operating PC to analogue two way radio:
        >http://www.kh-gps.de/keyb-if.htm

        Klaus, you may run into some resistance for good reasons. I have it
        from Robin that there may be legal issues in some countries (there is
        one here, but you won't trigger that problem with your setup). It
        _may_ be OK if you're using the interface to run a local HT - HT
        link, since all the IDing callsigns will match.

        I also believe Robin is working on a better solution to meet the
        different needs of different people, which will make analogue entry
        points less problematic.

        73 de VK3JED / VK3IRL
        http://vkradio.com
      • aa4rc
        Hi guys. There are (at least) a couple of issues to consider when trying to interface analog audio to D-Star. The first is legal ID requirements in your
        Message 3 of 19 , Oct 18, 2009
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          Hi guys. There are (at least) a couple of issues to consider when trying to interface analog audio to D-Star. The first is legal ID requirements in your country. In many countries, each 'transmitter" must be ID'd. This includes not only the user radio like an HT but also the other end of the RF link. Make sure you are ID'd both sides of the RF link. Also, D-Star ID's in the data portion of the voice/data stream so users do not have to voice ID. As a result, if you link a dstar audio stream into an analog source such as a repeater or echolink, you may not be legally ID'ing.

          The second issue is audio quality. Many folks running D-Star repeaters/radios do not like to hear the analog fade-outs, bleeps/bloops, etc that may be heard on analog radios/repeaters. As a result, we have a reflector designated as the "multimedia" reflector (REF015) for analog/drats/etc. Users/admins that link into the other reflectors do so assuming that the conversations will be D-Star end-to-end. Please don't try to inject analog audio into reflectors other than REF015.

          This topic can become quite religious/political. Let's please not turn this thread into another heated "analog vs D-Star" debate.

          Thanks and 73s,
          Robin
          AA4RC


          --- In DVDongle@yahoogroups.com, Tony Langdon <vk3jed@...> wrote:
          >
          > At 12:36 AM 10/17/2009, you wrote:
          > >Hello,
          > >maybe somebody is interested in seeing my interface for connecting
          > >DV-DONGLE operating PC to analogue two way radio:
          > >http://www.kh-gps.de/keyb-if.htm
          >
          > Klaus, you may run into some resistance for good reasons. I have it
          > from Robin that there may be legal issues in some countries (there is
          > one here, but you won't trigger that problem with your setup). It
          > _may_ be OK if you're using the interface to run a local HT - HT
          > link, since all the IDing callsigns will match.
          >
          > I also believe Robin is working on a better solution to meet the
          > different needs of different people, which will make analogue entry
          > points less problematic.
          >
          > 73 de VK3JED / VK3IRL
          > http://vkradio.com
          >
        • Barry
          What we need is a local RF node adaptor for those of us that own D-Star HT s and would like to use them at home only. (Bit like a cordless mic.) The
          Message 4 of 19 , Oct 18, 2009
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            What we need is a 'local' RF node adaptor for those of us that own D-Star HT's and would like to use them at home only. (Bit like a cordless mic.)
            The existing software options out there are none the less confusing and awkward to say the least, let alone the legalities.
            All new repeaters in the UK seem to have grinded to a halt, recession, room on the bands, whatever, all sorts.

            I know Robin has/is developing a DV Dongle with an antenna on it, but I think that's one way only...

            Anyone...?

            N.

            --- In DVDongle@yahoogroups.com, Tony Langdon <vk3jed@...> wrote:
            >
            > At 12:36 AM 10/17/2009, you wrote:
            > >Hello,
            > >maybe somebody is interested in seeing my interface for connecting
            > >DV-DONGLE operating PC to analogue two way radio:
            > >http://www.kh-gps.de/keyb-if.htm
            >
            > Klaus, you may run into some resistance for good reasons. I have it
            > from Robin that there may be legal issues in some countries (there is
            > one here, but you won't trigger that problem with your setup). It
            > _may_ be OK if you're using the interface to run a local HT - HT
            > link, since all the IDing callsigns will match.
            >
            > I also believe Robin is working on a better solution to meet the
            > different needs of different people, which will make analogue entry
            > points less problematic.
            >
            > 73 de VK3JED / VK3IRL
            > http://vkradio.com
            >
          • aa4rc
            Hi Barry. The new device (which has not been formally announced yet) will be two way. It should do exactly what you want. :) 73, Robin AA4RC
            Message 5 of 19 , Oct 18, 2009
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              Hi Barry. The new device (which has not been formally announced yet) will be two way. It should do exactly what you want. :)

              73,
              Robin
              AA4RC


              --- In DVDongle@yahoogroups.com, "Barry" <barrymung@...> wrote:
              >
              > What we need is a 'local' RF node adaptor for those of us that own D-Star HT's and would like to use them at home only. (Bit like a cordless mic.)
              > The existing software options out there are none the less confusing and awkward to say the least, let alone the legalities.
              > All new repeaters in the UK seem to have grinded to a halt, recession, room on the bands, whatever, all sorts.
              >
              > I know Robin has/is developing a DV Dongle with an antenna on it, but I think that's one way only...
              >
              > Anyone...?
              >
              > N.
              >
              > --- In DVDongle@yahoogroups.com, Tony Langdon <vk3jed@> wrote:
              > >
              > > At 12:36 AM 10/17/2009, you wrote:
              > > >Hello,
              > > >maybe somebody is interested in seeing my interface for connecting
              > > >DV-DONGLE operating PC to analogue two way radio:
              > > >http://www.kh-gps.de/keyb-if.htm
              > >
              > > Klaus, you may run into some resistance for good reasons. I have it
              > > from Robin that there may be legal issues in some countries (there is
              > > one here, but you won't trigger that problem with your setup). It
              > > _may_ be OK if you're using the interface to run a local HT - HT
              > > link, since all the IDing callsigns will match.
              > >
              > > I also believe Robin is working on a better solution to meet the
              > > different needs of different people, which will make analogue entry
              > > points less problematic.
              > >
              > > 73 de VK3JED / VK3IRL
              > > http://vkradio.com
              > >
              >
            • Klaus
              Hi Tony ... It s also quite clear to me, interfacing to radio could be illegal in some countries and maybe there are better solutions in future, but i only
              Message 6 of 19 , Oct 18, 2009
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                Hi Tony

                > Klaus, you may run into some resistance for good reasons. I have it
                > from Robin that there may be legal issues in some countries (there is
                > one here, but you won't trigger that problem with your setup). It
                > _may_ be OK if you're using the interface to run a local HT - HT
                > link, since all the IDing callsigns will match.

                It's also quite clear to me, interfacing to radio could be illegal in some countries and maybe there are better solutions in future, but i only wanted to give a short report on what could be done seen technically. Of course everybody making experiments in this respect, himself will be responsible for what he is doing. Personally i only did use the system with running very low power, so its range was quite limited and of course also some D-STAR benefits aren't available, but nevertheless there was a lot of fun.

                > I also believe Robin is working on a better solution to meet the
                > different needs of different people, which will make analogue entry
                > points less problematic.

                So let's wait for what is coming!

                73 de Klaus, DJ7OO
              • Barry
                Fantastic Robin, I think that sums up everyone s assumptions and clears the air of what the picture we all saw depicted (somewhere!). Excelent work. Regards,
                Message 7 of 19 , Oct 18, 2009
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                  Fantastic Robin,

                  I think that sums up everyone's assumptions and clears the air of what the picture we all saw depicted (somewhere!).
                  Excelent work.

                  Regards,

                  Neil.
                  ('Barry's' the screen name btw..)

                  --- In DVDongle@yahoogroups.com, "aa4rc" <aa4rc@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Barry. The new device (which has not been formally announced yet) will be two way. It should do exactly what you want. :)
                  >
                  > 73,
                  > Robin
                  > AA4RC
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In DVDongle@yahoogroups.com, "Barry" <barrymung@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > What we need is a 'local' RF node adaptor for those of us that own D-Star HT's and would like to use them at home only. (Bit like a cordless mic.)
                  > > The existing software options out there are none the less confusing and awkward to say the least, let alone the legalities.
                  > > All new repeaters in the UK seem to have grinded to a halt, recession, room on the bands, whatever, all sorts.
                  > >
                  > > I know Robin has/is developing a DV Dongle with an antenna on it, but I think that's one way only...
                  > >
                  > > Anyone...?
                  > >
                  > > N.
                  > >
                  > > --- In DVDongle@yahoogroups.com, Tony Langdon <vk3jed@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > At 12:36 AM 10/17/2009, you wrote:
                  > > > >Hello,
                  > > > >maybe somebody is interested in seeing my interface for connecting
                  > > > >DV-DONGLE operating PC to analogue two way radio:
                  > > > >http://www.kh-gps.de/keyb-if.htm
                  > > >
                  > > > Klaus, you may run into some resistance for good reasons. I have it
                  > > > from Robin that there may be legal issues in some countries (there is
                  > > > one here, but you won't trigger that problem with your setup). It
                  > > > _may_ be OK if you're using the interface to run a local HT - HT
                  > > > link, since all the IDing callsigns will match.
                  > > >
                  > > > I also believe Robin is working on a better solution to meet the
                  > > > different needs of different people, which will make analogue entry
                  > > > points less problematic.
                  > > >
                  > > > 73 de VK3JED / VK3IRL
                  > > > http://vkradio.com
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • Tony Langdon
                  ... I suspect low powered private operation should be OK (legally speaking), because the D-STAR ID would be the same as your own callsign, and on the local
                  Message 8 of 19 , Oct 18, 2009
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                    At 01:41 AM 10/19/2009, you wrote:


                    >It's also quite clear to me, interfacing to radio could be illegal
                    >in some countries and maybe there are better solutions in future,
                    >but i only wanted to give a short report on what could be done seen
                    >technically. Of course everybody making experiments in this respect,
                    >himself will be responsible for what he is doing. Personally i only
                    >did use the system with running very low power, so its range was
                    >quite limited and of course also some D-STAR benefits aren't
                    >available, but nevertheless there was a lot of fun.

                    I suspect low powered private operation should be OK (legally
                    speaking), because the D-STAR ID would be the same as your own
                    callsign, and on the local side, you can easily rig up a hardware
                    IDer on the dongle radio, to conform with the regs. However, take
                    note of Robin's request, you would still be working against the
                    policies of the DPlus network, unless you limit operations to the
                    multimedia reflector..

                    73 de VK3JED / VK3IRL
                    http://vkradio.com
                  • Tony Langdon
                    ... That will be useful for a lot of people. I m going down the Hotspot route, because I want a bit more than just around the house coverage (I m after HT
                    Message 9 of 19 , Oct 18, 2009
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                      At 01:39 AM 10/19/2009, you wrote:
                      >Hi Barry. The new device (which has not been formally announced
                      >yet) will be two way. It should do exactly what you want. :)

                      That will be useful for a lot of people. I'm going down the Hotspot
                      route, because I want a bit more than just around the house coverage
                      (I'm after HT coverage of the local area). While we have two
                      excellent gateways here, they're just outside reliable HT range from me.

                      73 de VK3JED / VK3IRL
                      http://vkradio.com
                    • John Hays
                      I pretty much agree with Robin s analysis, except this point: ... For the U.S., at least, I think the regulations are pretty clear, that the ID requirement is
                      Message 10 of 19 , Oct 20, 2009
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                        I pretty much agree with Robin's analysis, except this point:


                        On Oct 18, 2009, at 7:00 AM, aa4rc wrote:

                         As a result, if you link a dstar audio stream into an analog source such as a repeater or echolink, you may not be legally ID'ing.






                        For the U.S., at least, I think the regulations are pretty clear, that the ID requirement is for the transmitter involved, and need not be relayed by any intervening systems.  I treat this at length at http://k7ve.org/site/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=30&Itemid=26  which says, in part: 

                        "ID requirements are for the originating transmitter (Rule 97.119).  It does not have to be relayed, translated, transcribed, etc. It only has to be copyable on the signal of the original transmitting station.  Practical examples of this are link transmitters on linked repeater systems, the link transmitter may use a low frequency tone to CWID its transmitter, but it is filtered out on the link receiver so that it is not relayed on the next repeater.  Anyone monitoring the link transmitter would be able to extract the ID, meeting the regulatory requirement, but those on the linked repeater would not. "


                        John D. Hays
                        Amateur Radio Station K7VE
                        PO Box 1223
                        Edmonds, WA 98020-1223
                        VOIP/SIP: john@...
                        Email: john@...

                      • aa4rc
                        Hi John. The point I was making was that transmitters must ID . An analog link radio only has one transmitter and one receiver and therefor only one half
                        Message 11 of 19 , Oct 20, 2009
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                          Hi John. The point I was making was that "transmitters must ID". An analog "link radio" only has one transmitter and one receiver and therefor only one half of the link must ID. The link I was referring to transmits from both ends, therefor needing to ID both ends. A hotspot is a good example of this.

                          On another tangent, I spoke with ARRL legal about this issue and their claim (correct or not) was that, if you have a user coming in from the internet and the first RF generated is on the remote end from the user, that transmitter on the remote end must ID the user. In essence, the first place RF comes out must ID the user. This statement has many interesting rammifications, especially for multi-national conversations.

                          73,
                          Robin
                          AA4RC


                          --- In DVDongle@yahoogroups.com, John Hays <john@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I pretty much agree with Robin's analysis, except this point:
                          >
                          >
                          > On Oct 18, 2009, at 7:00 AM, aa4rc wrote:
                          > > As a result, if you link a dstar audio stream into an analog source
                          > > such as a repeater or echolink, you may not be legally ID'ing.
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > For the U.S., at least, I think the regulations are pretty clear, that
                          > the ID requirement is for the transmitter involved, and need not be
                          > relayed by any intervening systems. I treat this at length at http://k7ve.org/site/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=30&Itemid=26
                          > which says, in part:
                          >
                          > "ID requirements are for the originating transmitter (Rule 97.119).
                          > It does not have to be relayed, translated, transcribed, etc. It only
                          > has to be copyable on the signal of the original transmitting
                          > station. Practical examples of this are link transmitters on linked
                          > repeater systems, the link transmitter may use a low frequency tone to
                          > CWID its transmitter, but it is filtered out on the link receiver so
                          > that it is not relayed on the next repeater. Anyone monitoring the
                          > link transmitter would be able to extract the ID, meeting the
                          > regulatory requirement, but those on the linked repeater would not. "
                          >
                          >
                          > John D. Hays
                          > Amateur Radio Station K7VE
                          > PO Box 1223
                          > Edmonds, WA 98020-1223 VOIP/SIP: john@...
                          > Email: john@...
                          >
                        • Tony Langdon
                          ... I think that s dependent on which country you re in and how D-STAR IDs vs voice IDs are treated. 73 de VK3JED / VK3IRL http://vkradio.com
                          Message 12 of 19 , Oct 20, 2009
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                            At 06:38 AM 10/21/2009, you wrote:


                            >I pretty much agree with Robin's analysis, except this point:
                            >
                            >
                            >On Oct 18, 2009, at 7:00 AM, aa4rc wrote:
                            >>
                            >> As a result, if you link a dstar audio stream into an analog
                            >> source such as a repeater or echolink, you may not be legally ID'ing.

                            I think that's dependent on which country you're in and how D-STAR
                            IDs vs voice IDs are treated.

                            73 de VK3JED / VK3IRL
                            http://vkradio.com
                          • Tony Langdon
                            ... Well, given that linked FM transmissions (IRLP being a prime example) rely on the remote user speaking the ID, what s so different about D-STAR, given that
                            Message 13 of 19 , Oct 20, 2009
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                              At 10:07 AM 10/21/2009, you wrote:
                              >Hi John. The point I was making was that "transmitters must
                              >ID". An analog "link radio" only has one transmitter and one
                              >receiver and therefor only one half of the link must ID. The link I
                              >was referring to transmits from both ends, therefor needing to ID
                              >both ends. A hotspot is a good example of this.
                              >
                              >On another tangent, I spoke with ARRL legal about this issue and
                              >their claim (correct or not) was that, if you have a user coming in
                              >from the internet and the first RF generated is on the remote end
                              >from the user, that transmitter on the remote end must ID the
                              >user. In essence, the first place RF comes out must ID the
                              >user. This statement has many interesting rammifications,
                              >especially for multi-national conversations.

                              Well, given that linked FM transmissions (IRLP being a prime example)
                              rely on the remote user speaking the ID, what's so different about
                              D-STAR, given that the ID requirements are for "voice or a
                              universally accepted code" or something similar? I think the matter
                              is not as clear cut as they'd have us believe, and the arguments can
                              be raised for any hybrid network. The only difference between here
                              and IRLP/Echolink in this context is that it's _possible_ for the
                              originating station's ID to be transmitted by the protocol
                              itself. That's the way I see it anyway.



                              73 de VK3JED / VK3IRL
                              http://vkradio.com
                            • aa4rc
                              I was worried that this would digress. The worry was that if you mix dstar audio (where the user does not have to voice ID) and analog audio (where the user
                              Message 14 of 19 , Oct 20, 2009
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                                I was worried that this would digress. The worry was that if you mix dstar audio (where the user does not have to voice ID) and analog audio (where the user does have to voice ID), the dstar user may not be ID'd on the analog portion of the RF link. The extreme example of this is linking a dstar repeater where users are using d-rats without audio into an analog repeater. Lots of transmissions, no voice ID's.

                                73,
                                Robin
                                AA4RC


                                --- In DVDongle@yahoogroups.com, Tony Langdon <vk3jed@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > At 10:07 AM 10/21/2009, you wrote:
                                > >Hi John. The point I was making was that "transmitters must
                                > >ID". An analog "link radio" only has one transmitter and one
                                > >receiver and therefor only one half of the link must ID. The link I
                                > >was referring to transmits from both ends, therefor needing to ID
                                > >both ends. A hotspot is a good example of this.
                                > >
                                > >On another tangent, I spoke with ARRL legal about this issue and
                                > >their claim (correct or not) was that, if you have a user coming in
                                > >from the internet and the first RF generated is on the remote end
                                > >from the user, that transmitter on the remote end must ID the
                                > >user. In essence, the first place RF comes out must ID the
                                > >user. This statement has many interesting rammifications,
                                > >especially for multi-national conversations.
                                >
                                > Well, given that linked FM transmissions (IRLP being a prime example)
                                > rely on the remote user speaking the ID, what's so different about
                                > D-STAR, given that the ID requirements are for "voice or a
                                > universally accepted code" or something similar? I think the matter
                                > is not as clear cut as they'd have us believe, and the arguments can
                                > be raised for any hybrid network. The only difference between here
                                > and IRLP/Echolink in this context is that it's _possible_ for the
                                > originating station's ID to be transmitted by the protocol
                                > itself. That's the way I see it anyway.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > 73 de VK3JED / VK3IRL
                                > http://vkradio.com
                                >
                              • John
                                ... Absolutely. Some people read this as the original station s ID must be promulgated on a relayed system, which I don t see supported by the rules and is
                                Message 15 of 19 , Oct 20, 2009
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                                  --- In DVDongle@yahoogroups.com, "aa4rc" <aa4rc@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hi John. The point I was making was that "transmitters must ID". An analog "link radio" only has one transmitter and one receiver and therefor only one half of the link must ID. The link I was referring to transmits from both ends, therefor needing to ID both ends. A hotspot is a good example of this.
                                  >

                                  Absolutely. Some people read this as the original station's ID must be promulgated on a "relayed" system, which I don't see supported by the rules and is the reason I make the distinction. The rules are explicit, transmitters must provide the owning station's ID so that someone monitoring the transmitter's frequency can identify the originating transmitter.

                                  This can lead to some interesting communications. Let's say I let my wife operate a transmitter that is part of my station. She can only operate as the control operator under the privileges of her own operator's permit (Technician Class) but should use my callsign as the transmitter belongs to my station (and I am responsible for it). If she were to call me, she would call "K7VE this is K7VE" and be legal and proper, even though it would sound strange to a bystander. We could differentiate by using self selected unit identifiers such as "K7VE Unit 1 this is K7VE Unit 2" which might make more sense to someone on the sidelines and is also supported by the rules. (Sort of like DSTAR K7VE^^^A and K7VE^^^B.)

                                  It also becomes more complicated with club licenses as a control operator can operate under their license privileges a club station using the club's callsign with the permission of the trustee (who still has responsibility under that station license). In our case that would be WF7R (Northwest Digital Radio club callsign, for which I am the trustee).

                                  For a practical matter, I often loan my transmitter to her station, thus for that period the transmitter becomes a part of her station and she will identify using her own callsign.

                                  > On another tangent, I spoke with ARRL legal about this issue and their claim (correct or not) was that, if you have a user coming in from the internet and the first RF generated is on the remote end from the user, that transmitter on the remote end must ID the user. In essence, the first place RF comes out must ID the user. This statement has many interesting rammifications, especially for multi-national conversations.
                                  >

                                  I would agree, with a couple of caveats. If the person coming over the Internet is the control operator of the station then their callsign can and probably should be the one on the transmitted signal or as in the above examples they could be guest control operators using a club or other station's callsign with permission. However, in many, if not most, cases they are not the control operator, but rather are 3rd party traffic, with an entirely different set of requirements (especially ugly in international communications).

                                  This is the problem with antiquated rules and a resistance to updating them -- the old paradigms don't fit the realities of modern communications systems. The ARRL is often behind the times in their analysis of systems.

                                  Technically, users don't have callsigns in the US, stations do. You usually ID the transmission by the station that originates the communication.

                                  > 73,
                                  > Robin
                                  > AA4RC
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In DVDongle@yahoogroups.com, John Hays <john@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > I pretty much agree with Robin's analysis, except this point:
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > On Oct 18, 2009, at 7:00 AM, aa4rc wrote:
                                  > > > As a result, if you link a dstar audio stream into an analog source
                                  > > > such as a repeater or echolink, you may not be legally ID'ing.
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > For the U.S., at least, I think the regulations are pretty clear, that
                                  > > the ID requirement is for the transmitter involved, and need not be
                                  > > relayed by any intervening systems. I treat this at length at http://k7ve.org/site/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=30&Itemid=26
                                  > > which says, in part:
                                  > >
                                  > > "ID requirements are for the originating transmitter (Rule 97.119).
                                  > > It does not have to be relayed, translated, transcribed, etc. It only
                                  > > has to be copyable on the signal of the original transmitting
                                  > > station. Practical examples of this are link transmitters on linked
                                  > > repeater systems, the link transmitter may use a low frequency tone to
                                  > > CWID its transmitter, but it is filtered out on the link receiver so
                                  > > that it is not relayed on the next repeater. Anyone monitoring the
                                  > > link transmitter would be able to extract the ID, meeting the
                                  > > regulatory requirement, but those on the linked repeater would not. "
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > John D. Hays
                                  > > Amateur Radio Station K7VE
                                  > > PO Box 1223
                                  > > Edmonds, WA 98020-1223 VOIP/SIP: john@
                                  > > Email: john@
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • Nate Duehr
                                  ... This is a downright WRONG answer. Who gave you this opinion?! This would mean EchoLink from Headset to RF (PC-Net-RF), IRLP to IRLP (RF-Net-RF), and
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Oct 20, 2009
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                                    On Oct 20, 2009, at 5:07 PM, aa4rc wrote:

                                    > On another tangent, I spoke with ARRL legal about this issue and
                                    > their claim (correct or not) was that, if you have a user coming in
                                    > from the internet and the first RF generated is on the remote end
                                    > from the user, that transmitter on the remote end must ID the user.
                                    > In essence, the first place RF comes out must ID the user. This
                                    > statement has many interesting rammifications, especially for multi-
                                    > national conversations.

                                    This is a downright WRONG answer. Who gave you this opinion?!

                                    This would mean EchoLink from Headset to RF (PC-Net-RF), IRLP to IRLP
                                    (RF-Net-RF), and repeater links (RF-Link Frequency-RF) which all ID
                                    with the transmitter owner's ID, NOT the user calling from the Net,
                                    would be illegal. NONE of those send the person on the other end's
                                    callsign as their ID.

                                    They need to go read the "Auxiliary Station" section of Part 97
                                    again. Those are exactly what Net-to-RF links are, here in the U.S.,
                                    and they've supported that opinion (I have the text and graphics from
                                    QST where they said it, complete with it being noted as Chris Imlay's
                                    opinion (ARRL Legal Counsel)... it's on a hard drive here somewhere.

                                    This is what drove the request to the FCC to open up 2m to Auxiliary
                                    Station use, since vast quantities of simplex EchoLink and IRLP nodes
                                    were being operated illegally on VHF simplex for years*.

                                    *Auxiliary Stations once were limited to 222 MHz and above in Part 97,
                                    this changed a few years ago.

                                    --
                                    Nate Duehr, WY0X
                                    nate@...

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                                  • Nate Duehr
                                    ... Still doesn t matter as long as the OPERATOR of that analog station sends a legal ID. A pile of kerchunks and a 10 minute ID won t sound right to
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Oct 20, 2009
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                                      On Oct 20, 2009, at 5:49 PM, aa4rc wrote:

                                      > I was worried that this would digress. The worry was that if you mix
                                      > dstar audio (where the user does not have to voice ID) and analog
                                      > audio (where the user does have to voice ID), the dstar user may not
                                      > be ID'd on the analog portion of the RF link. The extreme example of
                                      > this is linking a dstar repeater where users are using d-rats
                                      > without audio into an analog repeater. Lots of transmissions, no
                                      > voice ID's.

                                      Still doesn't matter as long as the OPERATOR of that analog station
                                      sends a legal ID. A pile of kerchunks and a 10 minute ID won't
                                      "sound" right to listeners of "traditional" analog systems, but still
                                      legal, and they can still find the operator of the analog station if
                                      they have a problem with it, or want more information.

                                      --
                                      Nate Duehr, WY0X
                                      nate@...

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                                    • Tony Langdon
                                      ... I can see your point. Might be a case where VOX is actually the best interface method, given that a VOX would ignore the D-RATS, so the dead carriers
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Oct 20, 2009
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                                        At 10:49 AM 10/21/2009, you wrote:
                                        >I was worried that this would digress. The worry was that if you
                                        >mix dstar audio (where the user does not have to voice ID) and
                                        >analog audio (where the user does have to voice ID), the dstar user
                                        >may not be ID'd on the analog portion of the RF link. The extreme
                                        >example of this is linking a dstar repeater where users are using
                                        >d-rats without audio into an analog repeater. Lots of
                                        >transmissions, no voice ID's.

                                        I can see your point. Might be a case where VOX is actually the best
                                        interface method, given that a VOX would ignore the D-RATS, so the
                                        dead carriers don't get rebroadcast on the other side. The rest, I
                                        don't see as a big issue, at least not currently, the vast majority
                                        of hams still voice ID out of decades of habit, and will probably
                                        continue to do so, since it serves a purpose (like it's hard to look
                                        at your radio while driving)...

                                        I don't see it as a big problem, and the analogue link could send an
                                        advisory message to any connecting node. On reflectors, there's less
                                        of an issue, because exchanging callsigns is the most common way of
                                        passing control in nets and roundtables.

                                        There are some real legal issues here (we have a biggie that comes
                                        into play when the analogue and digital endpoints are both in
                                        Australia, and the analogue is on 10m, 2m or 70cm), but we know how
                                        to manage these issues.

                                        73 de VK3JED / VK3IRL
                                        http://vkradio.com
                                      • Tony Langdon
                                        ... Which is existing practice on IRLP and Echolink. ... As I said, a properly setup VOX could probably mitigate this problem, in any case. 73 de VK3JED /
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Oct 21, 2009
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                                          At 01:57 PM 10/21/2009, you wrote:

                                          >Still doesn't matter as long as the OPERATOR of that analog station
                                          >sends a legal ID. A pile of kerchunks and a 10 minute ID won't

                                          Which is existing practice on IRLP and Echolink.

                                          >"sound" right to listeners of "traditional" analog systems, but still
                                          >legal, and they can still find the operator of the analog station if
                                          >they have a problem with it, or want more information.

                                          As I said, a properly setup VOX could probably mitigate this problem,
                                          in any case.

                                          73 de VK3JED / VK3IRL
                                          http://vkradio.com
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