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Re: [DESG] Pronunciation

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  • Henry Pijffers
    Hi Julian, My mind didn t go any further than England or the US. I think your New Zealand variety might be much closer to Dutch long a than the English/US
    Message 1 of 41 , Nov 1, 2000
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      Hi Julian,

      My mind didn't go any further than England or the US.
      I think your New Zealand variety might be much closer
      to Dutch long a than the English/US variety. Maybe some
      audio recordings will shed some light on this, but I'm
      currently not capable of doing that, so this will have to
      wait a little.

      Something for the group: is it an idea to make 1-word
      or perhaps 1-syllable audio samples to demonstrate
      the basic Dutch sounds? Then we wouldn't need to
      enter into discussions like Julian and I had, because
      then you could just refer to an audio recording when
      explaining pronunciation.

      groeten,
      Henry

      dutch-english-study-group@egroups.com hef schreven:
      >Hi Henry. We have a sticking point here, because English is my first
      >language and therefore perhaps the problem lies with regional accents of
      >English and/or Dutch. I live in the north of the Netherlands, so I am
      >far less affected by western accents than many. However, my own native
      >English is of the New Zealand variety, so it's not exactly standard
      >either (if there is such a thing as standard English these days). This
      >shows up most in Dutch when I try to say words with a long "e" and the
      >result sounds like "ij". It's a typical NZ/Australian thing to say
      >"G'day" with the "-ay" part sounding similar the "ei/ij" in Dutch.
      >
      >In any case, I always believed that the way that I pronounce "father" is
      >very close to the way that the majority of the English-speaking world
      >say it. Sure, I've also heard it said a little like "foorther". but in
      >my opinion that is an exception rather than the rule. The "a" sound that
      >I use when saying "father" sounds the same to me as the long Dutch "a"
      >that I am taught at Noorderpoortcollege in Groningen.
      >
      >Perhaps we must agree to disagree. :-)
      >Pronounciation is a thorny subject because of the wide regional and
      >worldwide variation.
      >
      >Groeten,
      >Julian
      >
      >Henry Pijffers wrote:
      >
      >> Julian wrote:
      >> >
      >> >Hi Henry. I'm not sure how *you* pronounce the English word "father",
      >> >but when said not too quickly by a native speaker of English the "a"
      >> >definitely sounds like the Dutch long "a" in my opinion.
      >> >
      >> >The short "a" in Dutch is more similar to the short "u" in English,
      >> >though not quite the same.
      >> >
      >> I'm pretty fluent in English, and my pronunciation
      >> is also pretty good, if I may say so, so I'm sticking
      >> to my statement that (my) long a is nothing near
      >> the a in "father".
      >>
      >> Maybe it all depends on regional variety, and you've
      >> heared the long a in a western accent? I can imagine
      >> that would sound like the a in "father".
      >>
      >> Henry
      >
      >
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    • ajavabla
      ij or ei should not be pronounced as [ai] as in eye in Standard Dutch, but as e (as in bed) + y (as in yes). Some dialects (e.g. the Amsterdam dialect)
      Message 41 of 41 , Apr 7, 2007
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        ij or ei should not be pronounced as [ai] as in 'eye' in Standard
        Dutch, but as e (as in bed) + y (as in yes). Some dialects (e.g. the
        Amsterdam dialect) have [ai] for ei/ij.

        In German and English the original diphthong [ei] developed into
        [ai] at an early stage. Since the 1970's there is this tendency
        towards [ai] also in Dutch. (cf Dutch "wijn", German "Wein" and
        English "wine.")
        You may hear this [ai] in what has been named "poldernederlands".
        Polder Dutch is a variant of Dutch speech that differs from standard
        Dutch because the diphtongs /ei/, /ui/ and /ou/au are pronounced with
        a wider mouth opening, which makes them sound more or less like [ai],
        [áy] and [au]. Also the R is pronounced differently as an American
        [r].
        Polder Dutch is said to be a result of women's emancipation.
        (Educated) women started using this variant on TV, especially on
        commercial TV and its current speakers are still mainly young women.
        One should note that many people abhor this pronunciation.

        Want to know more?
        http://cf.hum.uva.nl/poldernederlands/


        NORMAN REVELL wrote:
        >
        > Dutch diphthongs can be very difficult to tune your ear to (it took
        me years).
        >
        > First of all the Dutch "ij" is pronounced the same as the
        Dutch "ei" (...)It is certainly not pronounced like the German "ei"
        which is somewhat like "eye"
        In "unrefined" speakers I have heard it sound a bit like the
        Cockney "ay" when saying words like "kijk" but it can sound a bit
        ugly.
        > The "eye" sound does occur in Dutch but it is written as "aai" so
        how do you pronounce a word like "baai" and do you distinguish it
        from "bij"?

        Note that there is the same difference between the first part of the
        diphthong in 'aai' and 'eye' as there is between the aa and a in maan
        and man, the latter being shorter with the lips more rounded.
        For untrained English ears it is hard to distinguish a and aa, as I
        found out when trying it on an English native speaker. He did not
        hear the difference!

        mvg
        aja
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