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Re: [DESG] assimilation

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  • Henry Pijffers
    ... I really don t agree with this. I know enough people who pronounce opdat as it s written. Ok, I do agree with that most people pronounce it as obdat ,
    Message 1 of 11 , Feb 1, 2003
      a3bladel wrote:

      > IMHO Every Dutchman pronounces opdat as [obdat].
      > It's hardly possible to say [oPdat] unless you pronounce it as two
      > separate words. The same holds good for 'op de tafel'
      > If you pronounced the 'p' voiceless the 'd' would assimilate to 't'.

      I really don't agree with this. I know enough people who pronounce
      "opdat" as it's written. Ok, I do agree with that most people
      pronounce it as "obdat", but it's not everybody, and it's really not a
      shame not to.

      > Another example: In 'ik denk' the K is pronounced as the English G
      > in 'Good'.

      For me, it's just a hard dutch K, nothing "English" about it...

      > If we look at the woord 'zakdoek'(handkerchief) the K has even
      > disappeared after assimilation in some people's pronunciation: they
      > pronounce: zaddoek.

      The K has either disappeared, as you said, OR it's pronounced as the
      english G.


      groetjes,
      Henry
    • Ruud Harmsen
      ... I agree. But with this note: it is hardly possible _in Dutch_ (and other languages), but not in all languages. In English, for example, update does have
      Message 2 of 11 , Feb 1, 2003
        01:36 1-2-2003 -0000, a3bladel <bladel@...>:
        >IMHO Every Dutchman pronounces opdat as [obdat].
        >It's hardly possible to say [oPdat] unless you pronounce it as two
        >separate words.

        I agree. But with this note: it is hardly possible _in Dutch_ (and
        other languages), but not in all languages. In English, for example,
        "update" does have a real p and d, and the b's in "website" and
        "obsolete" are really b's, not p's.

        >As to your second question, I think you are right. As far as I know,
        >a fricative is always voiceless at the end of a word in Dutch, unlike
        >English. The verb leVen conjugates : ik leeF ";

        True. But when a vowel of voiced consonant follows in the next
        words, (example: "ik leef met je mee") there is usually a "v" sound
        again.

        --
        http://rudhar.com
      • Henry Pijffers
        ... Are you sure here Ruud? I pronounce the F in your example as an F, not a V. Now, I m aware that my pronunciation of Dutch is pretty non-standard, but I
        Message 3 of 11 , Feb 1, 2003
          Ruud Harmsen wrote:
          >
          > True. But when a vowel of voiced consonant follows in the next
          > words, (example: "ik leef met je mee") there is usually a "v" sound
          > again.
          >
          Are you sure here Ruud? I pronounce the F in your example as an F, not
          a V. Now, I'm aware that my pronunciation of Dutch is pretty
          non-standard, but I thought that pronouncing that F as an F IS pretty
          standard. Am I missing something here?

          groetjes,
          Henry
        • Gerda Schut
          Henry is right, Dutch has neutralisation at word end, which means that all voiced consonants will be unvoiced. ... From: Henry Pijffers To:
          Message 4 of 11 , Feb 1, 2003
            Henry is right, Dutch has neutralisation at word end, which means that all voiced consonants will be unvoiced.
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Henry Pijffers
            To: DUTCH-ENGLISH-STUDY-GROUP@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 3:58 PM
            Subject: Re: [DESG] assimilation


            Ruud Harmsen wrote:
            >
            > True. But when a vowel of voiced consonant follows in the next
            > words, (example: "ik leef met je mee") there is usually a "v" sound
            > again.
            >
            Are you sure here Ruud? I pronounce the F in your example as an F, not
            a V. Now, I'm aware that my pronunciation of Dutch is pretty
            non-standard, but I thought that pronouncing that F as an F IS pretty
            standard. Am I missing something here?

            groetjes,
            Henry


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          • Ruud Harmsen
            ... I guess some do, some don t. I do. Don t know about how many pronounce things either way. I do know that Dutch people speaking English are often betrayed
            Message 5 of 11 , Feb 1, 2003
              >> True. But when a vowel of voiced consonant follows in the next
              >> words, (example: "ik leef met je mee") there is usually a "v" sound
              >> again.

              15:58 1-2-2003 +0100, Henry Pijffers:
              >Are you sure here Ruud? I pronounce the F in your example as an F, not
              >a V. Now, I'm aware that my pronunciation of Dutch is pretty
              >non-standard, but I thought that pronouncing that F as an F IS pretty
              >standard. Am I missing something here?

              I guess some do, some don't. I do. Don't know about how many
              pronounce things either way.

              I do know that Dutch people speaking English are often betrayed by
              pronouncing z sounds as s, but just as often by the reverse case:
              pronouncing a z where English required an s. Example:
              "Yes it is" [jesIrIz], will most often become [jezItIs] in the mouth
              of Dutch speakers.
              "Misunderstand" also requires an s, but often gets a z from Dutch
              speakers.
              --
              http://rudhar.com
            • a3bladel <bladel@lycos.nl>
              ... not ... pretty ... I also pronounce an F here, just as I do in leef lang . I supect it s got something to do with the M or L (which are not fricatives or
              Message 6 of 11 , Feb 1, 2003
                >>Henry Pijffers <henry.pijffers@w...> wrote:
                >> Ruud Harmsen wrote:
                > > in "ik leef met je mee") there is usually a "v" sound
                > > again.

                > Are you sure here Ruud? I pronounce the F in your example as an F,
                not
                > a V. Now, I'm aware that my pronunciation of Dutch is pretty
                > non-standard, but I thought that pronouncing that F as an F IS
                pretty
                > standard.

                I also pronounce an F here, just as I do in 'leef lang'.
                I supect it's got something to do with the M or L (which are not
                fricatives or plosives)?
                I am curious to know, however, if Henry pronounces the F exactly the
                same in 'beleefd' (polite or gone through) en 'beleefde'(polite or
                went through)
                I pronounce these words as [beleeft] and [beleevde] respectively.
                Trying to retain the F in the 2nd example unvoices the following D.
                Maybe I have a speech defect or I am too close to the Belgian border?
                Met vriendelijke groeten,
                AJA
              • Henry Pijffers
                ... I pronounce them just like you said. As Gerda already said, fricatives at the end of a word are always voiceless. Those in the middle of words aren t
                Message 7 of 11 , Feb 1, 2003
                  a3bladel wrote:
                  >
                  > I am curious to know, however, if Henry pronounces the F exactly
                  > the same in 'beleefd' (polite or gone through) en 'beleefde'(polite
                  > or went through) I pronounce these words as [beleeft] and
                  > [beleevde] respectively.
                  >
                  I pronounce them just like you said. As Gerda already said, fricatives
                  at the end of a word are always voiceless. Those in the middle of
                  words aren't necessarily, that depends on what those words are derived
                  from.

                  To further complicate matters though (beginners, stop reading
                  here...), I can give you the following example: "dat beleef ik" (I
                  experience that). I pronounce that as "dat beleeV ik". A fricative at
                  the end of a word, yet pronounced with voice... Why? I guess because
                  the voiced I that follows.

                  groetjes,
                  Henry
                • aeneas nin <nin_@lycos.co.uk>
                  calf but calves, loaf but loaves...THERE YOU HAVE IT!!! phonetic representation in English of voiced/unvoiced consonants...so please would people stop
                  Message 8 of 11 , Feb 3, 2003
                    calf but calves, loaf but loaves...THERE YOU HAVE IT!!! phonetic
                    representation in English of voiced/unvoiced consonants...so please
                    would people stop complaining about English selling!!
                    The different voicing as in 'width' ie. WI-D(voiced)-th(unvoiced) is
                    apparently very hard for non-native speakers of English to realise
                    but even English speakers will unvoice the D 'wit-th' or in rapid
                    colloquial speach remove it completely 'wi-th'. The same distinction
                    exists in the voiced/unvoiced 'th' in 'this' and 'that'. But the
                    omnepresent voice in Dutch is what makes it soooooooo cute.
                    I really love this language...Speak English for an hour, two, three
                    or four, 'Ade too, that's what hell will be like. Small chat to the
                    babberling of liethly about THE GOOD OLD DAYS WHEN WE WISHED WE WERE
                    DEAD and the price of margerine fifty years ago and now...the price
                    of blue brand now.', say half a dozen words in Dutch and you Know
                    your alive, your vocal cords possitivly tickle.
                    What is your 'non-standard' Dutch Henry?
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