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I give Wertham...

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  • Jonathan Michael Reiter
    I give Wertham NO credit, what so ever... Batman had been toned down years before the middle fifties and the blasphemous tome Seduction Of The Innocent... It
    Message 1 of 17 , Aug 2, 2009
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      I give Wertham NO credit, what so ever...
      Batman had been toned down years before the middle fifties and the blasphemous tome Seduction Of The Innocent...
      It would be 1986 when The Dark Knight Returns was published that Batman would be returned to the Darkness he had been forged in, and return to the dark excellence that is his alone...
      Mind, in the late sixties, and early seventies, his chroniclers would attempt to bring The Dark Knight back to excellence, but the spectre of the live action Batman TV show would have a detrimental effect on the Bat Legacy and he would still be viewed as a clown...
      In 1989, after TDKR, Michael Keaton would return the cinematic Dark Knight to a dark brilliance heretofore unknown in the history of Batman adaptations...
      We won't dwell on Joel Schumacher and his little cinematic meadow muffins..
      It is only with Christian Bale and the recently rebooted Batman Franchise that The Dark Knight has returned to dark excellence.

      Let's hope it's for a long time...
      Jonathan Michael Reiter
      jmr
    • Richard J.
      Poor little Wertham just got blamed for everything, didnt he? Just trying to help, the little guy was. I got the Best of Batman, 40s, 50s and 60s and there was
      Message 2 of 17 , Aug 2, 2009
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        Poor little Wertham just got blamed for everything, didnt he?

        Just trying to help, the little guy was.

        I got the Best of Batman, 40s, 50s and 60s and there was no dramatic change due to any publication.

        I'm beginning to suspect the 'blame' that Wertham received was unfair and is just easier to say it was his fault to spare anyone else of any responsibility, before or after SotI.

        While I think alot of stuff Wertham has said was ridiculous, if I said having Robin along in Batman comic books was giving kids the wrong idea and that they should go tag along and run after policemen and firemen and this would obviously be dangerous for them, and the comic books followed suit and wrote Robin out of the story in some unfriendly way (I was going to say killed in action, but that would prove my bogus point, wouldn't it?), okay, lets say Dick Grayson happily leaves to go spend all of his free time in school and loves every minute of it, because of my objection.

        Kids don't like the new direction with Dick Grayson loving school, the don't fall for it, they still hate school.

        That is hardly my fault. I didn't write the comic books and neither did Wertham, before or after his book.

        And I don't buy into that Supes, Bats and WW were the only three who could withstand Wertham's onslaught. Its more like they were the only ones capable of enough creativity.

        After all, the jokes and slander are on Batman more than anybody else, second being Wonder Woman.

        There was no Wertham urban legends against Green Arrow (you'll put your eye out), Green Lantern (men wearing jewelry!) or Hawkman to warrant their demise in the fifties.

        Comic books lose sales. A writer has no guarantee he's going to always have ideas.

        I think Wertham was given too much credit, the comic book writers didn't have enough of a creative leg to stand on anyway and had Wertham not come along, someone else would have, cuz we would probably be looking at True Horror Stories with Superman, Zombie Tales with Batman and Women of Bondage with Wonder Woman.
      • Larry Talbot
        Wertham by himself was just one putz. It was the era that spawned him that really put the industry in a coma. Everybody was seeing commies under every bed.
        Message 3 of 17 , Aug 2, 2009
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          Wertham by himself was just one putz. It was the era that spawned him that really put the industry in a coma. Everybody was seeing commies under every bed. The House Unamarican Activities Council (HUAC) was appropriately named as they committed more Unamerican atrocities than all the so-called commies they threw in jail combined. Wertham just supplied one more bit of hysteria to the mob. Accoding to him, Batman and Robin were in a homosexual relationship. If he-men of the 50s were afraid of anything more than commies, it was "fags" (termanology of the time. "Gay" was still a few decades away.)

          Der Wolf

          Ululo Ergo Sum

          http://wulfmann.wordpress.com/

          "English is the result of Norman Men-at-Arms making dates with Saxon Barmaids."
          H. Beam Piper


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Richard J.
          To: DC_Comics_Uncensored@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 4:26 PM
          Subject: [DCU] Re: I give Wertham...


          Poor little Wertham just got blamed for everything, didnt he?

          Just trying to help, the little guy was.

          I got the Best of Batman, 40s, 50s and 60s and there was no dramatic change due to any publication.

          I'm beginning to suspect the 'blame' that Wertham received was unfair and is just easier to say it was his fault to spare anyone else of any responsibility, before or after SotI.

          While I think alot of stuff Wertham has said was ridiculous, if I said having Robin along in Batman comic books was giving kids the wrong idea and that they should go tag along and run after policemen and firemen and this would obviously be dangerous for them, and the comic books followed suit and wrote Robin out of the story in some unfriendly way (I was going to say killed in action, but that would prove my bogus point, wouldn't it?), okay, lets say Dick Grayson happily leaves to go spend all of his free time in school and loves every minute of it, because of my objection.

          Kids don't like the new direction with Dick Grayson loving school, the don't fall for it, they still hate school.

          That is hardly my fault. I didn't write the comic books and neither did Wertham, before or after his book.

          And I don't buy into that Supes, Bats and WW were the only three who could withstand Wertham's onslaught. Its more like they were the only ones capable of enough creativity.

          After all, the jokes and slander are on Batman more than anybody else, second being Wonder Woman.

          There was no Wertham urban legends against Green Arrow (you'll put your eye out), Green Lantern (men wearing jewelry!) or Hawkman to warrant their demise in the fifties.

          Comic books lose sales. A writer has no guarantee he's going to always have ideas.

          I think Wertham was given too much credit, the comic book writers didn't have enough of a creative leg to stand on anyway and had Wertham not come along, someone else would have, cuz we would probably be looking at True Horror Stories with Superman, Zombie Tales with Batman and Women of Bondage with Wonder Woman.





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • clanceyakker
          Good thing we don t have that today about Ernie and Bert on Sesame Street, Fred and Barney promoting transvestism with their animal skins or a teletubbie in
          Message 4 of 17 , Aug 2, 2009
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            Good thing we don't have that today about Ernie and Bert on Sesame Street, Fred and Barney promoting transvestism with their animal skins or a teletubbie in purple with a triangle head design and a purse, right?

            Yea, Wertham was definitely one of a kind and has given way to much more open-mindedness, the likes of his narrow thinking we just won't see again.


            --- In DC_Comics_Uncensored@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Talbot" <lonchaneyjr@...> wrote:
            Accoding to him, Batman and Robin were in a homosexual relationship. If he-men of the 50s were afraid of anything more than commies, it was "fags" (termanology of the time. "Gay" was still a few decades away.)
          • clanceyakker
            Generally to focus on one person or one image (Wertham, McCarthy, Donna Reed, June Cleaver, etc.) just makes it easier to scoff at an era or a generation so we
            Message 5 of 17 , Aug 2, 2009
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              Generally to focus on one person or one image (Wertham, McCarthy, Donna Reed, June Cleaver, etc.) just makes it easier to scoff at an era or a generation so we can compare what is good about today with what was wrong with yesterday.

              This then means no one else has to be held accountable, as you noted, dried up uninspired writers, nervous editors or self-centered creative persons who think no matter what they offer will be met with success.

              --- In DC_Comics_Uncensored@yahoogroups.com, "Richard J." <richard.fuller1@...> wrote:
              >
              > Poor little Wertham just got blamed for everything, didnt he?
              >
              > Just trying to help, the little guy was.
              >
              > I got the Best of Batman, 40s, 50s and 60s and there was no dramatic change due to any publication.
              >
              > I'm beginning to suspect the 'blame' that Wertham received was unfair and is just easier to say it was his fault to spare anyone else of any responsibility, before or after SotI.
              >
              > While I think alot of stuff Wertham has said was ridiculous, if I said having Robin along in Batman comic books was giving kids the wrong idea and that they should go tag along and run after policemen and firemen and this would obviously be dangerous for them, and the comic books followed suit and wrote Robin out of the story in some unfriendly way (I was going to say killed in action, but that would prove my bogus point, wouldn't it?), okay, lets say Dick Grayson happily leaves to go spend all of his free time in school and loves every minute of it, because of my objection.
              >
              > Kids don't like the new direction with Dick Grayson loving school, the don't fall for it, they still hate school.
              >
              > That is hardly my fault. I didn't write the comic books and neither did Wertham, before or after his book.
              >
              > And I don't buy into that Supes, Bats and WW were the only three who could withstand Wertham's onslaught. Its more like they were the only ones capable of enough creativity.
              >
              > After all, the jokes and slander are on Batman more than anybody else, second being Wonder Woman.
              >
              > There was no Wertham urban legends against Green Arrow (you'll put your eye out), Green Lantern (men wearing jewelry!) or Hawkman to warrant their demise in the fifties.
              >
              > Comic books lose sales. A writer has no guarantee he's going to always have ideas.
              >
              > I think Wertham was given too much credit, the comic book writers didn't have enough of a creative leg to stand on anyway and had Wertham not come along, someone else would have, cuz we would probably be looking at True Horror Stories with Superman, Zombie Tales with Batman and Women of Bondage with Wonder Woman.
              >
            • Richard J.
              Wertham wrote the book when he was almost sixty, hardly a spawn of the communist fearing decade. With all the reading I used to do on Albert Fish, I was
              Message 6 of 17 , Aug 2, 2009
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                Wertham wrote the book when he was almost sixty, hardly a spawn of the communist fearing decade.

                With all the reading I used to do on Albert Fish, I was surprised to see that Wertham testified at his trial in the thirties.

                It's obvious upon doing a bit of reading online real quick that there is more to the story than we ever hear, such as because of his credentials, what Wertham was saying about comic books was leapt upon by others and discussed, by and large by people who probably knew as little or less about comic books as did Wertham.

                What Wertham was saying about comic books was convoluted and bogus, but had nothing to do with McCarthyism, which was just as absurd.

                Had Joseph McCarthy not done what he did to attempt to enhance his career, would someone else have made a red scare claim similar to this?

                Who knows?

                But had Wertham not brought attention to the violence (which wasn't imaginary) that was in comic books at the time, someone else either would have, or the industry would have imploded on itself with the slasher mentality that showing the Beaver gun down his family at the breakfast table or Donna Reed committing cannibalism was what the readers wanted.

                Then had Stan Lee been allowed to still come into being, his works would probably be regarded as an attempt to return to the earlier days of comic books, instead of revolutionizing the characters and making them real.

                And I didn't know Wertham also brought attention to the practice that if retailers didn't want to sell questionable titles, such as horror comics, then they were intimidated into not being allowed to sell any of the publisher's titles.

                But we never hear about things like this, do we?

                We got the blinders on and 'Wertham bad' is all we are supposed to see.


                --- In DC_Comics_Uncensored@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Talbot" <lonchaneyjr@...> wrote:
                >
                > Wertham by himself was just one putz. It was the era that spawned him that really put the industry in a coma. Everybody was seeing commies under every bed. The House Unamarican Activities Council (HUAC) was appropriately named as they committed more Unamerican atrocities than all the so-called commies they threw in jail combined. Wertham just supplied one more bit of hysteria to the mob. Accoding to him, Batman and Robin were in a homosexual relationship. If he-men of the 50s were afraid of anything more than commies, it was "fags" (termanology of the time. "Gay" was still a few decades away.)
              • Larry Talbot
                Did you know that some of the writers of Bewitched were in prison during the show because of the HUAC? Comic writers were well advised to be afraid (be very
                Message 7 of 17 , Aug 2, 2009
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                  Did you know that some of the writers of Bewitched were in prison during the show because of the HUAC? Comic writers were well advised to be afraid (be very afraid!) How many of you remember the Cold War and Atomic Bomb drills in Elementary? It was a very different time. I wouldn't mind seeing the 60s make a comeback, though.

                  Der Wolf

                  Ululo Ergo Sum

                  http://wulfmann.wordpress.com/

                  "English is the result of Norman Men-at-Arms making dates with Saxon Barmaids."
                  H. Beam Piper


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: clanceyakker
                  To: DC_Comics_Uncensored@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 6:56 PM
                  Subject: [DCU] Re: I give Wertham...


                  Generally to focus on one person or one image (Wertham, McCarthy, Donna Reed, June Cleaver, etc.) just makes it easier to scoff at an era or a generation so we can compare what is good about today with what was wrong with yesterday.

                  This then means no one else has to be held accountable, as you noted, dried up uninspired writers, nervous editors or self-centered creative persons who think no matter what they offer will be met with success.

                  --- In DC_Comics_Uncensored@yahoogroups.com, "Richard J." <richard.fuller1@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Poor little Wertham just got blamed for everything, didnt he?
                  >
                  > Just trying to help, the little guy was.
                  >
                  > I got the Best of Batman, 40s, 50s and 60s and there was no dramatic change due to any publication.
                  >
                  > I'm beginning to suspect the 'blame' that Wertham received was unfair and is just easier to say it was his fault to spare anyone else of any responsibility, before or after SotI.
                  >
                  > While I think alot of stuff Wertham has said was ridiculous, if I said having Robin along in Batman comic books was giving kids the wrong idea and that they should go tag along and run after policemen and firemen and this would obviously be dangerous for them, and the comic books followed suit and wrote Robin out of the story in some unfriendly way (I was going to say killed in action, but that would prove my bogus point, wouldn't it?), okay, lets say Dick Grayson happily leaves to go spend all of his free time in school and loves every minute of it, because of my objection.
                  >
                  > Kids don't like the new direction with Dick Grayson loving school, the don't fall for it, they still hate school.
                  >
                  > That is hardly my fault. I didn't write the comic books and neither did Wertham, before or after his book.
                  >
                  > And I don't buy into that Supes, Bats and WW were the only three who could withstand Wertham's onslaught. Its more like they were the only ones capable of enough creativity.
                  >
                  > After all, the jokes and slander are on Batman more than anybody else, second being Wonder Woman.
                  >
                  > There was no Wertham urban legends against Green Arrow (you'll put your eye out), Green Lantern (men wearing jewelry!) or Hawkman to warrant their demise in the fifties.
                  >
                  > Comic books lose sales. A writer has no guarantee he's going to always have ideas.
                  >
                  > I think Wertham was given too much credit, the comic book writers didn't have enough of a creative leg to stand on anyway and had Wertham not come along, someone else would have, cuz we would probably be looking at True Horror Stories with Superman, Zombie Tales with Batman and Women of Bondage with Wonder Woman.
                  >





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Larry Talbot
                  Next case! Bailif, read the charges. Yes your Honor. Suspect is charged with five counts of child endangerment, 213 counts of assault and battery, 765
                  Message 8 of 17 , Aug 2, 2009
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                    "Next case!"
                    "Bailif, read the charges."
                    "Yes your Honor. Suspect is charged with five counts of child endangerment, 213 counts of assault and battery, 765 counts of threatening, 200 counts of breaking and entering, robbery, illegal imprisonment, use of dangerous chemicals in public locations, driving without a license, speeding, failure to heed traffic laws, reckless endangerment..."
                    "Your Honor, defence would be satisfied to waive further reading."
                    "Mr. Trotter...?"
                    "No objection, you Honor."
                    "Very well. Mr. Murdock, how does your client plead?"
                    "Not guilty by reason of mental defect, your Honor."
                    "Prosecution demands a 730 exam, you Honor."
                    "So ordered. Mr. Murdock, please have your client report for psychiactic exam no later than Friday. Now on the matter of bail..."
                    "We demand high bail, your Honor. The suspect has considerable assets and could easily flee juristiction."
                    "Defence objects. My client has numerous strong ties to the community as well as several business interests. He is willing to post any bail the court sees fit to impose."
                    "I imagine so. Bail is set at two million in cash and your client will surrender his passport. Just for giggles he will also wear an electronic tether." <<Bam!>> "Next case."
                    "Thank you, Matt."
                    "No problem, Mr. Wayne."
                    "Oh, just call me Bruce."

                    Der Wolf

                    Ululo Ergo Sum

                    http://wulfmann.wordpress.com/

                    "English is the result of Norman Men-at-Arms making dates with Saxon Barmaids."
                    H. Beam Piper

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Richard J.
                    McCarthy was toppled and died in 1957. Bewitched premiered in 1964. Sounds like the Japanese soldier on Gilligan s Island to me. Comic book writers were told
                    Message 9 of 17 , Aug 4, 2009
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                      McCarthy was toppled and died in 1957.

                      Bewitched premiered in 1964. Sounds like the Japanese soldier on Gilligan's Island to me.

                      Comic book writers were told to be afraid? By who? Wertham?

                      Who told them to be afraid? And of what?

                      It's happening in Hollywood. It COULD happen in comic books too!

                      It . . . . . COULD!

                      It didn't, . . . . but it COULD!!

                      Sounds like Reefer Madness to me now.

                      TELL YOUR CHILDREN!!!

                      --- In DC_Comics_Uncensored@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Talbot" <lonchaneyjr@...> wrote:
                      Did you know that some of the writers of Bewitched were in prison during the show because of the HUAC? Comic writers were well advised to be afraid (be very afraid!)
                    • Larry Talbot
                      McCarthy was dead, but not his evil henchmen. And the people who went to jail didn t get cut loose with McCarthy s death. It took years for the victims of
                      Message 10 of 17 , Aug 4, 2009
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                        McCarthy was dead, but not his evil henchmen. And the people who went to jail didn't get cut loose with McCarthy's death. It took years for the victims of the HUAC to get released. Believe it or not, there may still be people who were arrested for smoking pot in the sixties still in federal custody. People got sent to jail longer for drug possession than homicide back then. Don't even try to guess how long a suspected Commie got! Wertham was not a ringleader. He was another @$$-kissing sychophant trying to glom some glory with his half baked ill-concieved theories and misleading book.

                        Der Wolf

                        Ululo Ergo Sum

                        http://wulfmann.wordpress.com/

                        "English is the result of Norman Men-at-Arms making dates with Saxon Barmaids."
                        H. Beam Piper


                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Richard J.
                        To: DC_Comics_Uncensored@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 5:32 PM
                        Subject: [DCU] Re: I give Wertham...


                        McCarthy was toppled and died in 1957.

                        Bewitched premiered in 1964. Sounds like the Japanese soldier on Gilligan's Island to me.

                        Comic book writers were told to be afraid? By who? Wertham?

                        Who told them to be afraid? And of what?

                        It's happening in Hollywood. It COULD happen in comic books too!

                        It . . . . . COULD!

                        It didn't, . . . . but it COULD!!

                        Sounds like Reefer Madness to me now.

                        TELL YOUR CHILDREN!!!

                        --- In DC_Comics_Uncensored@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Talbot" <lonchaneyjr@...> wrote:
                        Did you know that some of the writers of Bewitched were in prison during the show because of the HUAC? Comic writers were well advised to be afraid (be very afraid!)





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Richard J.
                        McCarthy, evil henchmen, Bewitched, pot smokers, commies. This has WHAT to do with Wertham? Wertham didn t write the silly book for any glory, he was already
                        Message 11 of 17 , Aug 5, 2009
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                          McCarthy, evil henchmen, Bewitched, pot smokers, commies.

                          This has WHAT to do with Wertham?

                          Wertham didn't write the silly book for any glory, he was already an established figure. It was BECAUSE of his reputation that the book got the notice it did.

                          Albert Fish was the Jeffrey Dahmer of the 1930s. Wertham didn't offer his opinion of Fish to reporters, he TESTIFIED at Fish's trial as an expert.

                          You thought the comic books gave the book its notoriety?

                          Its obvious where Wertham's "threat" got its credibility, but the funny thing is that 'credibility' mirrors the same people who panicked over marijuana in Reefer Madness or alleged Boy George and Culture Club was going to make us all drag queens in the eighties, or that rock music was the devil's message, and look at how we regard THOSE people.

                          They're nothing more than narrow-minded crackpots.

                          But Wertham was a legitimate threat who needed to be recognized and dealt with?

                          Apparently so, if the talented comic book writers were being told to 'be very afraid. This is your own little congressional witch hunt.'

                          --- In DC_Comics_Uncensored@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Talbot" <lonchaneyjr@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > McCarthy was dead, but not his evil henchmen. And the people who went to jail didn't get cut loose with McCarthy's death. It took years for the victims of the HUAC to get released. Believe it or not, there may still be people who were arrested for smoking pot in the sixties still in federal custody. People got sent to jail longer for drug possession than homicide back then. Don't even try to guess how long a suspected Commie got! Wertham was not a ringleader. He was another @$$-kissing sychophant trying to glom some glory with his half baked ill-concieved theories and misleading book.
                        • Daniel Ross
                          HUH? ... From: Richard J. Subject: [DCU] Re: I give Wertham... To: DC_Comics_Uncensored@yahoogroups.com Received: Wednesday,
                          Message 12 of 17 , Aug 5, 2009
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                            HUH?

                            --- On Wed, 5/8/09, Richard J. <richard.fuller1@...> wrote:


                            From: Richard J. <richard.fuller1@...>
                            Subject: [DCU] Re: I give Wertham...
                            To: DC_Comics_Uncensored@yahoogroups.com
                            Received: Wednesday, 5 August, 2009, 7:32 AM


                             



                            McCarthy was toppled and died in 1957.

                            Bewitched premiered in 1964. Sounds like the Japanese soldier on Gilligan's Island to me.

                            Comic book writers were told to be afraid? By who? Wertham?

                            Who told them to be afraid? And of what?

                            It's happening in Hollywood. It COULD happen in comic books too!

                            It . . . . . COULD!

                            It didn't, . . . . but it COULD!!

                            Sounds like Reefer Madness to me now.

                            TELL YOUR CHILDREN!!!

                            --- In DC_Comics_Uncensore d@yahoogroups. com, "Larry Talbot" <lonchaneyjr@ ...> wrote:
                            Did you know that some of the writers of Bewitched were in prison during the show because of the HUAC? Comic writers were well advised to be afraid (be very afraid!)

















                            __________________________________________________________________________________
                            Find local businesses and services in your area with Yahoo!7 Local.
                            Get started: http://local.yahoo.com.au

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Richard J.
                            Forgive me, kind sir, but I m afraid you will just have to elaborate a bit more and in the English language beyond that one term, thank you very much.
                            Message 13 of 17 , Aug 6, 2009
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                              Forgive me, kind sir, but I'm afraid you will just have to elaborate a bit more and in the English language beyond that one term, thank you very much.

                              --- In DC_Comics_Uncensored@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Ross <standinggreenman@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > HUH?
                              >
                              > --- On Wed, 5/8/09, Richard J. <richard.fuller1@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > From: Richard J. <richard.fuller1@...>
                              > Subject: [DCU] Re: I give Wertham...
                              > To: DC_Comics_Uncensored@yahoogroups.com
                              > Received: Wednesday, 5 August, 2009, 7:32 AM
                              >
                              >
                              >  
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > McCarthy was toppled and died in 1957.
                              >
                              > Bewitched premiered in 1964. Sounds like the Japanese soldier on Gilligan's Island to me.
                              >
                              > Comic book writers were told to be afraid? By who? Wertham?
                              >
                              > Who told them to be afraid? And of what?
                              >
                              > It's happening in Hollywood. It COULD happen in comic books too!
                              >
                              > It . . . . . COULD!
                              >
                              > It didn't, . . . . but it COULD!!
                              >
                              > Sounds like Reefer Madness to me now.
                              >
                              > TELL YOUR CHILDREN!!!
                              >
                              > --- In DC_Comics_Uncensore d@yahoogroups. com, "Larry Talbot" <lonchaneyjr@ ...> wrote:
                              > Did you know that some of the writers of Bewitched were in prison during the show because of the HUAC? Comic writers were well advised to be afraid (be very afraid!)
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > __________________________________________________________________________________
                              > Find local businesses and services in your area with Yahoo!7 Local.
                              > Get started: http://local.yahoo.com.au
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                            • clanceyakker
                              I think the problem with discussions about Wertham has been the seemingly automatic assumption that he is working hand-in-hand with Senator McCarthy to destroy
                              Message 14 of 17 , Aug 7, 2009
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                                I think the problem with discussions about Wertham has been the seemingly automatic assumption that he is working hand-in-hand with Senator McCarthy to destroy entertainment, as tho they were some villianouse equals.

                                "You take out the movies and I'll take out the comic books! Nyeh, nyeh, nyeh!!"

                                This then resulted in some noble uphill struggle by Hollywood and the comic book companies who had to perservere against this unAmerican onslaught.

                                In fact, Stan Lee's emergence had virtually nothing to do with what Wertham did, it was simply and solely Stan's talent. As to why Lee hadn't done anything like Spiderman and the FF sooner, one, the time probably was never right and two, it probably took the damage Wertham did to the company to enable Lee to do what he envisioned.

                                Still, two of the Hollywood blacklisted victims who were imprisoned for not naming names, one went to work in comic books afterward and another one wrote comic strips, I believe.

                                I don't recall hearing about any comic book writers or artists going to work in Hollywood because of Wertham's book.

                                But it seems Richard is trying to say that the panic in the comic book industry was not Wertham's doing, it was persons reacting to the book and the call before congress.

                                If they panicked, as did those who felt the need to make the movie Reefer Madness in the thirties, it was their own doing and had nothing to do with Wertham.

                                Not being allowed to show vampires or zombies any longer hardly had any effect on Batman or Superman, from what I see.

                                I'm surprised there wasn't such extreme paranoia that DC felt the need to overhaul Batman in some way to remove the bat from him, since this is often equated with vamires.

                                --- In DC_Comics_Uncensored@yahoogroups.com, "Richard J." <richard.fuller1@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Forgive me, kind sir, but I'm afraid you will just have to elaborate a bit more and in the English language beyond that one term, thank you very much.
                                >
                                > --- In DC_Comics_Uncensored@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Ross <standinggreenman@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > HUH?
                                > >
                                > > --- On Wed, 5/8/09, Richard J. <richard.fuller1@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > From: Richard J. <richard.fuller1@>
                                > > Subject: [DCU] Re: I give Wertham...
                                > > To: DC_Comics_Uncensored@yahoogroups.com
                                > > Received: Wednesday, 5 August, 2009, 7:32 AM
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >  
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > McCarthy was toppled and died in 1957.
                                > >
                                > > Bewitched premiered in 1964. Sounds like the Japanese soldier on Gilligan's Island to me.
                                > >
                                > > Comic book writers were told to be afraid? By who? Wertham?
                                > >
                                > > Who told them to be afraid? And of what?
                                > >
                                > > It's happening in Hollywood. It COULD happen in comic books too!
                                > >
                                > > It . . . . . COULD!
                                > >
                                > > It didn't, . . . . but it COULD!!
                                > >
                                > > Sounds like Reefer Madness to me now.
                                > >
                                > > TELL YOUR CHILDREN!!!
                                > >
                                > > --- In DC_Comics_Uncensore d@yahoogroups. com, "Larry Talbot" <lonchaneyjr@ ...> wrote:
                                > > Did you know that some of the writers of Bewitched were in prison during the show because of the HUAC? Comic writers were well advised to be afraid (be very afraid!)
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > __________________________________________________________________________________
                                > > Find local businesses and services in your area with Yahoo!7 Local.
                                > > Get started: http://local.yahoo.com.au
                                > >
                                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > >
                                >
                              • Larry Talbot
                                Actually, it was DC the restarted the super-hero genre with a new Flash and Green Lantern. Stan learned of it and wanted to do the same thing at Marvel, but
                                Message 15 of 17 , Aug 7, 2009
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                                  Actually, it was DC the restarted the super-hero genre with a new Flash and Green Lantern. Stan learned of it and wanted to do the same thing at Marvel, but the publishers were on the fence. At that point it was all monsters and Archie type comics. Maybe some Army and Western. So, Stan pushed an idea to do super-heroes in a monster vein. Hence, Hulk and Thing. With their success, it opened the door for Spiderman and the Avengers. The rest, as they say, is history.

                                  Der Wolf

                                  Ululo Ergo Sum

                                  http://wulfmann.wordpress.com/

                                  "English is the result of Norman Men-at-Arms making dates with Saxon Barmaids."
                                  H. Beam Piper


                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: clanceyakker
                                  To: DC_Comics_Uncensored@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Friday, August 07, 2009 10:41 AM
                                  Subject: [DCU] Re: I give Wertham...


                                  I think the problem with discussions about Wertham has been the seemingly automatic assumption that he is working hand-in-hand with Senator McCarthy to destroy entertainment, as tho they were some villianouse equals.

                                  "You take out the movies and I'll take out the comic books! Nyeh, nyeh, nyeh!!"

                                  This then resulted in some noble uphill struggle by Hollywood and the comic book companies who had to perservere against this unAmerican onslaught.

                                  In fact, Stan Lee's emergence had virtually nothing to do with what Wertham did, it was simply and solely Stan's talent. As to why Lee hadn't done anything like Spiderman and the FF sooner, one, the time probably was never right and two, it probably took the damage Wertham did to the company to enable Lee to do what he envisioned.

                                  Still, two of the Hollywood blacklisted victims who were imprisoned for not naming names, one went to work in comic books afterward and another one wrote comic strips, I believe.

                                  I don't recall hearing about any comic book writers or artists going to work in Hollywood because of Wertham's book.

                                  But it seems Richard is trying to say that the panic in the comic book industry was not Wertham's doing, it was persons reacting to the book and the call before congress.

                                  If they panicked, as did those who felt the need to make the movie Reefer Madness in the thirties, it was their own doing and had nothing to do with Wertham.

                                  Not being allowed to show vampires or zombies any longer hardly had any effect on Batman or Superman, from what I see.

                                  I'm surprised there wasn't such extreme paranoia that DC felt the need to overhaul Batman in some way to remove the bat from him, since this is often equated with vamires.

                                  --- In DC_Comics_Uncensored@yahoogroups.com, "Richard J." <richard.fuller1@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Forgive me, kind sir, but I'm afraid you will just have to elaborate a bit more and in the English language beyond that one term, thank you very much.
                                  >
                                  > --- In DC_Comics_Uncensored@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Ross <standinggreenman@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > HUH?
                                  > >
                                  > > --- On Wed, 5/8/09, Richard J. <richard.fuller1@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > From: Richard J. <richard.fuller1@>
                                  > > Subject: [DCU] Re: I give Wertham...
                                  > > To: DC_Comics_Uncensored@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > Received: Wednesday, 5 August, 2009, 7:32 AM
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > McCarthy was toppled and died in 1957.
                                  > >
                                  > > Bewitched premiered in 1964. Sounds like the Japanese soldier on Gilligan's Island to me.
                                  > >
                                  > > Comic book writers were told to be afraid? By who? Wertham?
                                  > >
                                  > > Who told them to be afraid? And of what?
                                  > >
                                  > > It's happening in Hollywood. It COULD happen in comic books too!
                                  > >
                                  > > It . . . . . COULD!
                                  > >
                                  > > It didn't, . . . . but it COULD!!
                                  > >
                                  > > Sounds like Reefer Madness to me now.
                                  > >
                                  > > TELL YOUR CHILDREN!!!
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In DC_Comics_Uncensore d@yahoogroups. com, "Larry Talbot" <lonchaneyjr@ ...> wrote:
                                  > > Did you know that some of the writers of Bewitched were in prison during the show because of the HUAC? Comic writers were well advised to be afraid (be very afraid!)
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > __________________________________________________________
                                  > > Find local businesses and services in your area with Yahoo!7 Local.
                                  > > Get started: http://local.yahoo.com.au
                                  > >
                                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  > >
                                  >





                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • clanceyakker
                                  Okay, I ve noticed you get sidetracked AND distracted rather easily. Please, reread my previous post, still listed below here. I did NOT say Stan restarted any
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Aug 7, 2009
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                                    Okay, I've noticed you get sidetracked AND distracted rather easily.

                                    Please, reread my previous post, still listed below here.

                                    I did NOT say Stan restarted any superhero genre, nor do I see where I implied any such thing.

                                    I was referring to the Man's talent and how he seemed unaffected by anything Wertham, SotI or the resulting Comics Code, put into effect.

                                    If anything, you've brought up the fact that while SotI was supposedly hurting the comic book industry, the industry was likewise being revitalized and turning over a new leaf with the introduction of Showcase #4, at practically the same time.

                                    This is hardly the same thing that took place in Hollywood, as you again have noted, McCarthy's "henchmen" had writers from Bewitched imprisoned, years after McCarty himself died.


                                    --- In DC_Comics_Uncensored@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Talbot" <lonchaneyjr@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Actually, it was DC the restarted the super-hero genre with a new Flash and Green Lantern. Stan learned of it and wanted to do the same thing at Marvel, but the publishers were on the fence. At that point it was all monsters and Archie type comics. Maybe some Army and Western. So, Stan pushed an idea to do super-heroes in a monster vein. Hence, Hulk and Thing. With their success, it opened the door for Spiderman and the Avengers. The rest, as they say, is history.

                                    ----- Original Message -----

                                    I think the problem with discussions about Wertham has been the seemingly automatic assumption that he is working hand-in-hand with Senator McCarthy to destroy entertainment, as tho they were some villianouse equals.
                                    >
                                    > "You take out the movies and I'll take out the comic books! Nyeh, nyeh, nyeh!!"
                                    >
                                    > This then resulted in some noble uphill struggle by Hollywood and the comic book companies who had to perservere against this unAmerican onslaught.
                                    >
                                    > In fact, Stan Lee's emergence had virtually nothing to do with what Wertham did, it was simply and solely Stan's talent. As to why Lee hadn't done anything like Spiderman and the FF sooner, one, the time probably was never right and two, it probably took the damage Wertham did to the company to enable Lee to do what he envisioned.
                                    >
                                    > Still, two of the Hollywood blacklisted victims who were imprisoned for not naming names, one went to work in comic books afterward and another one wrote comic strips, I believe.
                                    >
                                    > I don't recall hearing about any comic book writers or artists going to work in Hollywood because of Wertham's book.
                                    >
                                    > But it seems Richard is trying to say that the panic in the comic book industry was not Wertham's doing, it was persons reacting to the book and the call before congress.
                                    >
                                    > If they panicked, as did those who felt the need to make the movie Reefer Madness in the thirties, it was their own doing and had nothing to do with Wertham.
                                    >
                                    > Not being allowed to show vampires or zombies any longer hardly had any effect on Batman or Superman, from what I see.
                                    >
                                    > I'm surprised there wasn't such extreme paranoia that DC felt the need to overhaul Batman in some way to remove the bat from him, since this is often equated with vamires.
                                  • Richard J.
                                    Well, about two years difference, actually. SotI was published in 1954, Showcase #4 was October, 1956. If anything, it just shows that success in comic books
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Aug 7, 2009
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                                      Well, about two years difference, actually.

                                      SotI was published in 1954, Showcase #4 was October, 1956.

                                      If anything, it just shows that success in comic books was no more hinged on vampires and zombies than SotI was rooted in comic books failing.

                                      --- In DC_Comics_Uncensored@yahoogroups.com, "clanceyakker" <clanceyakker@...> wrote:
                                      If anything, you've brought up the fact that while SotI was supposedly hurting the comic book industry, the industry was likewise being revitalized and turning over a new leaf with the introduction of Showcase #4, at practically the same time.
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