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Re: [DCU] Spiderman is simply the best! Nothing can compare.

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  • Larry Talbot
    In the original concept, Krypton s destruction was pretty much in the abstract. Like telling an adopted child his real parents died when he was very young.
    Message 1 of 21 , Jul 31, 2009
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      In the original concept, Krypton's destruction was pretty much in the abstract. Like telling an adopted child his "real" parents died when he was very young. You feel bad about it, but it isn't as personal as, say, watching them gunned down in an alley. The original Kent's death was sad, yes, but it wasn't tramatic as, well, the alley thing. They died of old age and Clark was old enough to handle it. Face it, Supes didn't have any trauma forming his character until much later (accursed retcons!) The Burne Superman was born after Krypton's destruction, and his human parents were still alive until the recent loss of Jonathan Kent. He didn't even know he was Kryptonian until after he bevame Superman. Unpleasent, yes. Sad, yes. Even traumatic, but Superman has already been on his path for some time, so it isn't connected to how he turned out.

      Der Wolf

      Ululo Ergo Sum

      http://wulfmann.wordpress.com/

      "English is the result of Norman Men-at-Arms making dates with Saxon Barmaids."
      H. Beam Piper


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Jonathan
      To: DC_Comics_Uncensored@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 7:23 PM
      Subject: Re: [DCU] Spiderman is simply the best! Nothing can compare.


      Yes, they did. The Entire Population of Krypton, and (in the Silver Age Re-Telling,) Jonathan and Martha Kent did... The first one especially, could make a megalomaniac, but didn't. Kal-El/Superman would go on to be Earth-1's greatest and most respected hero...
      Jonathan Michael Reiter
      jmr
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Larry Talbot
      To: DC_Comics_Uncensored@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 9:32 AM
      Subject: Re: [DCU] Spiderman is simply the best! Nothing can compare.

      When Superman first started out, his power level wasn't much higher that Spideys. His powere were even compared to the insect kingdom in terms of strength and leaping ability. Over time he just got stronger and stronger until he could shove planets out of orbit. Now he is in the 120 ton class (more or less). But back in his beginnings Superman was actually unpopular with the police, leaping away before they could quesstion or detain him (as if). Today he is stronger than Thor, faster than Quicksilver, and shrugs of atomic explosions. Yet rather than set himself up as a God-King, he helps and protects people. And nobody had to die to get him to do so (Uncle Ben, Uncle Ben, waaaaaaah!) Superman was the first Super-Hero. Yeah, the Shadow and Doc Savage were in the pulps, but they were more like detective adventurers than super-heroes. Superman became the mold from which all others were cast. Supes, Bats and Wonder Woman were the only ones to survive the 50s intact. It was the resurgence of super-heroes at DC that spawned the industry as we know it today. No DC, no Marvel, no angst-ridden Spidey.

      Spidey is OK, but way to much angst. He's the Woody Allen of the spandex set. He was just getting really interesting with his new power levels (no more wimpy web-shooters, spike from his wrist, faster, stronger, more confident) and Marvel retconned his ass via Mephisto. Now he's back to his old job, unmarried, wimpy web-shooters and old power levels.

      Der Wolf

      Ululo Ergo Sum

      http://wulfmann.wordpress.com/

      "English is the result of Norman Men-at-Arms making dates with Saxon Barmaids."
      H. Beam Piper

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Cash Grinder
      To: dc_comics_uncensored@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 6:01 AM
      Subject: [DCU] Spiderman is simply the best! Nothing can compare.

      Spiderman is the best. Any comments on that?

      It's not a huge deal but you might want to see what other people had to say about your group.

      http://2short.net/fV

      Unlike Superman (who is technically alien) Spiderman has to live like
      every other human and even when he’s saving the world people don’t
      automatically trust that he’s the good guy. He has to earn his
      integrity: it’s not just handed to him for having superpowers which he
      doesn’t use to kill people.
      The world of Spiderman isn’t afraid to explore the gray area.

      http://2short.net/fV

      Regards,

      Camilla Timbers

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      HEY, CAMILLA! This is about DC Characters! Try the Marvel Comics Uncensored Yahoo Group if you want to talk about Spiderman, a Capice?
      JMR (moderator)

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Richard J.
      Thank you, I was about to point out that the entire planet of Krypton had to die to make Superman, as Uncle Ben had to do to make Spiderman, but in truth,
      Message 2 of 21 , Aug 1, 2009
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        Thank you, I was about to point out that the entire planet of Krypton had to die to 'make' Superman, as Uncle Ben had to do to make Spiderman, but in truth, the story is that Jonathan Kent likewise had to die, whether it was the George Reeves version, Glenn Ford or John Schnieder, Jonathan Kent died to bring about a turning point in young Clark's life.

        In the Kirk Alyn version, both parents died and yes eventually for a while it was changed in the comic books to make both Jonathan and Martha guilty factors in Superboy's existence.

        The idea that Spiderman existed in the real world (or Marvel heroes for that matter) is as old as Lee Harvey Oswald, and that the DC characters were in that make-believe world of the 50s is as old as Dwight David Eisenhower.

        Having grown up on the Marvel set and eventually ventured into DC, there are clearly definite appeals to both.

        Truth be told, the (what I would call over-emoting) angst of Marvel got on my nerves after a while and I found alot of it unnecessary (moments when the Thing pouted over his appearance for instance).

        But actually, what I found worse was DC characters imitating this behavior, such as 70s issues of Lois Lane 'dealing with' the murder of her sister Lucy (who suddenly came back to life, it seems) or mainly Wildfire's "CONDITION" in the Legion.

        Found Green Arrow's 'liberalism' to be utterly insulting and ridiculous as well.

        But as to how they are supposed to 'differ', in the Kirk Alyn movie serial, Jonathan Kent does indeed tell young Clark "with great power comes great responsibility."

        --- In DC_Comics_Uncensored@yahoogroups.com, Jonathan <jmrmpd@...> wrote:
        >
        > Yes, they did. The Entire Population of Krypton, and (in the Silver Age Re-Telling,) Jonathan and Martha Kent did... The first one especially, could make a megalomaniac, but didn't. Kal-El/Superman would go on to be Earth-1's greatest and most respected hero...

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Larry Talbot
        Yet rather than set himself up as a God-King, he helps and protects people. And nobody had to die to get him to do so (Uncle Ben, Uncle Ben, waaaaaaah!)

        ----- Original Message -----
        Spiderman is the best. Any comments on that?
        >
        > It's not a huge deal but you might want to see what other people had to say about your group.
        >
        > http://2short.net/fV
        >
        > Unlike Superman (who is technically alien) Spiderman has to live like
        > every other human and even when he’s saving the world people don’t
        > automatically trust that he’s the good guy. He has to earn his
        > integrity: it’s not just handed to him for having superpowers which he
        > doesn’t use to kill people.
        > The world of Spiderman isn’t afraid to explore the gray area.
      • Richard J.
        And Ben Parker s death consisted of what, appearances in three or four panels? We didn t grieve for the loss of Ben Parker, we felt and related to the impact
        Message 3 of 21 , Aug 1, 2009
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          And Ben Parker's death consisted of what, appearances in three or four panels? We didn't grieve for the loss of Ben Parker, we felt and related to the impact this man we didn't know had on the main character. We barely saw May Parker in Amazing Fantasy #15.

          Plus, you're getting your heroes crossed, if we are going to go to original concepts.

          Ben died in the house from a burglar. The movies established him as dying from a carjacking on the sidewalk. Bruce's parents died in the alley way.

          Tho the movie placed Peter at Ben's death, it was always more effective to me that he wasn't around when Ben needed him (which I think the second movie tried to establish) but the inability to have guilt in the original comic book story (that he wasnt off being selfish, he just wasn't there) was better to me.

          Krypton's destruction could have been highly detailed with fleshed out characters and their causes of death, it would all still be unknown to the infant Kal El, until he watched home movies or something.

          He can have no memories of Krypton's destruction, as even if he time traveled, he would possess the knowledge of the planet's demise and would thereby be unable to be shocked and horrified by anything.

          And even if he hadnt had the Kryptonian powers to such an extent, it is more than likely he would have still suspected there was something different about him (portrayed best in my mind in the first episode of the George Reeves' show. I've always enjoyed the greaser Clark Kent)

          And tho it has never (to my knowledge) been shown the effect that being a sole survivor can have on Clark Kent or Superman, such an event can have an impact on a character.

          From survivors of the Titanic to sole survivors of airplane crashes or nautical disasters (I think there was a recent one where a teen ager survived a boat disaster, within the past six months, toward Asia or Africa somewhere?), the incident can be crystallizing to a person.

          The youngest survivor of the Donner party had no recollection of the events, but that hardly means the situation didn't still take place in her life.

          To compare such drama as this in Peter's life would be along the lines of if both May and Ben were killed by the burglar and Peter (aside from not stopping the crook when he should have) would now have to deal with that he too would have been murdered had he been in the house with them (say Peter is still new to the usage of his powers and wouldn't have stopped the crook or the crook took him by surprise to prevent even a seemingly normal teen from overpowering him, this being a young man)

          Peter would have to deal with had he been in the house he could have saved them, or heck, he could have done this with Ben, which I guess to an extent he did with the elevator encounter.

          --- In DC_Comics_Uncensored@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Talbot" <lonchaneyjr@...> wrote:
          >
          > In the original concept, Krypton's destruction was pretty much in the abstract. Like telling an adopted child his "real" parents died when he was very young. You feel bad about it, but it isn't as personal as, say, watching them gunned down in an alley. The original Kent's death was sad, yes, but it wasn't tramatic as, well, the alley thing. They died of old age and Clark was old enough to handle it. Face it, Supes didn't have any trauma forming his character until much later (accursed retcons!) The Burne Superman was born after Krypton's destruction, and his human parents were still alive until the recent loss of Jonathan Kent. He didn't even know he was Kryptonian until after he bevame Superman. Unpleasent, yes. Sad, yes. Even traumatic, but Superman has already been on his path for some time, so it isn't connected to how he turned out.
        • Larry Talbot
          Well said. I want to add one thing. Nothing in Clark s life, in any version of the character, directly pointed to fis fighting crime. Frankly, he does that
          Message 4 of 21 , Aug 1, 2009
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            Well said. I want to add one thing. Nothing in Clark's life, in any version of the character, directly pointed to fis fighting crime. Frankly, he does that as an aside in his busy schedule. Nobody robbed or murdered any of his family. Krypton died of natural causes (originally), as did the parent(s). Why does he do it? Because he had the benefit of good parents, a good upbringing, a stable childhood, and a good community. He he never developed the powers (well, we would have never heard of him) he might still have become a reporter, or stayed on the farm, or taken some other job having little or nothing to do with law-enforcement, or maybe became a cop. Trauma did not create Superman...a stable home and caring parents did.

            Der Wolf

            Ululo Ergo Sum

            http://wulfmann.wordpress.com/

            "English is the result of Norman Men-at-Arms making dates with Saxon Barmaids."
            H. Beam Piper


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Richard J.
            To: DC_Comics_Uncensored@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 5:42 PM
            Subject: Re: [DCU] Spiderman is simply the best! Nothing can compare.


            And Ben Parker's death consisted of what, appearances in three or four panels? We didn't grieve for the loss of Ben Parker, we felt and related to the impact this man we didn't know had on the main character. We barely saw May Parker in Amazing Fantasy #15.

            Plus, you're getting your heroes crossed, if we are going to go to original concepts.

            Ben died in the house from a burglar. The movies established him as dying from a carjacking on the sidewalk. Bruce's parents died in the alley way.

            Tho the movie placed Peter at Ben's death, it was always more effective to me that he wasn't around when Ben needed him (which I think the second movie tried to establish) but the inability to have guilt in the original comic book story (that he wasnt off being selfish, he just wasn't there) was better to me.

            Krypton's destruction could have been highly detailed with fleshed out characters and their causes of death, it would all still be unknown to the infant Kal El, until he watched home movies or something.

            He can have no memories of Krypton's destruction, as even if he time traveled, he would possess the knowledge of the planet's demise and would thereby be unable to be shocked and horrified by anything.

            And even if he hadnt had the Kryptonian powers to such an extent, it is more than likely he would have still suspected there was something different about him (portrayed best in my mind in the first episode of the George Reeves' show. I've always enjoyed the greaser Clark Kent)

            And tho it has never (to my knowledge) been shown the effect that being a sole survivor can have on Clark Kent or Superman, such an event can have an impact on a character.

            From survivors of the Titanic to sole survivors of airplane crashes or nautical disasters (I think there was a recent one where a teen ager survived a boat disaster, within the past six months, toward Asia or Africa somewhere?), the incident can be crystallizing to a person.

            The youngest survivor of the Donner party had no recollection of the events, but that hardly means the situation didn't still take place in her life.

            To compare such drama as this in Peter's life would be along the lines of if both May and Ben were killed by the burglar and Peter (aside from not stopping the crook when he should have) would now have to deal with that he too would have been murdered had he been in the house with them (say Peter is still new to the usage of his powers and wouldn't have stopped the crook or the crook took him by surprise to prevent even a seemingly normal teen from overpowering him, this being a young man)

            Peter would have to deal with had he been in the house he could have saved them, or heck, he could have done this with Ben, which I guess to an extent he did with the elevator encounter.

            --- In DC_Comics_Uncensored@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Talbot" <lonchaneyjr@...> wrote:
            >
            > In the original concept, Krypton's destruction was pretty much in the abstract. Like telling an adopted child his "real" parents died when he was very young. You feel bad about it, but it isn't as personal as, say, watching them gunned down in an alley. The original Kent's death was sad, yes, but it wasn't tramatic as, well, the alley thing. They died of old age and Clark was old enough to handle it. Face it, Supes didn't have any trauma forming his character until much later (accursed retcons!) The Burne Superman was born after Krypton's destruction, and his human parents were still alive until the recent loss of Jonathan Kent. He didn't even know he was Kryptonian until after he bevame Superman. Unpleasent, yes. Sad, yes. Even traumatic, but Superman has already been on his path for some time, so it isn't connected to how he turned out.





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Jonathan
            Yes... But in Batman/Bruce Wayne, Bruce Wayne became a dark warrior of the night due to the violent robbery/murders of his parents Thomas and Martha Wayne at
            Message 5 of 21 , Aug 2, 2009
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              Yes... But in Batman/Bruce Wayne, Bruce Wayne became a dark warrior of the night due to the violent robbery/murders of his parents Thomas and Martha Wayne at the filthy hands of Joe Chill, a cheap crook...
              Batman/Bruce Wayne was raised in effect by Alfred the Butler and I think, Dr. Leslie Thompkins...
              Bruce would, when he finished his education in Gotham City, would travel the world and study armed and unarmed combat, deductive reasoning and manhunting skills. In short, all the things he would need to become The Dark Knight, Batman.
              A dark and terrible scourge to the criminals and dirtbags of Gotham, and a friend to those who needed his skills...
              Jonathan Michael Reiter
              jmr
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Larry Talbot
              To: DC_Comics_Uncensored@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 8:57 PM
              Subject: Re: [DCU] Spiderman is simply the best! Nothing can compare.


              Well said. I want to add one thing. Nothing in Clark's life, in any version of the character, directly pointed to fis fighting crime. Frankly, he does that as an aside in his busy schedule. Nobody robbed or murdered any of his family. Krypton died of natural causes (originally), as did the parent(s). Why does he do it? Because he had the benefit of good parents, a good upbringing, a stable childhood, and a good community. He he never developed the powers (well, we would have never heard of him) he might still have become a reporter, or stayed on the farm, or taken some other job having little or nothing to do with law-enforcement, or maybe became a cop. Trauma did not create Superman...a stable home and caring parents did.

              Der Wolf

              Ululo Ergo Sum

              http://wulfmann.wordpress.com/

              "English is the result of Norman Men-at-Arms making dates with Saxon Barmaids."
              H. Beam Piper


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Richard J.
              To: DC_Comics_Uncensored@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 5:42 PM
              Subject: Re: [DCU] Spiderman is simply the best! Nothing can compare.

              And Ben Parker's death consisted of what, appearances in three or four panels? We didn't grieve for the loss of Ben Parker, we felt and related to the impact this man we didn't know had on the main character. We barely saw May Parker in Amazing Fantasy #15.

              Plus, you're getting your heroes crossed, if we are going to go to original concepts.

              Ben died in the house from a burglar. The movies established him as dying from a carjacking on the sidewalk. Bruce's parents died in the alley way.

              Tho the movie placed Peter at Ben's death, it was always more effective to me that he wasn't around when Ben needed him (which I think the second movie tried to establish) but the inability to have guilt in the original comic book story (that he wasnt off being selfish, he just wasn't there) was better to me.

              Krypton's destruction could have been highly detailed with fleshed out characters and their causes of death, it would all still be unknown to the infant Kal El, until he watched home movies or something.

              He can have no memories of Krypton's destruction, as even if he time traveled, he would possess the knowledge of the planet's demise and would thereby be unable to be shocked and horrified by anything.

              And even if he hadnt had the Kryptonian powers to such an extent, it is more than likely he would have still suspected there was something different about him (portrayed best in my mind in the first episode of the George Reeves' show. I've always enjoyed the greaser Clark Kent)

              And tho it has never (to my knowledge) been shown the effect that being a sole survivor can have on Clark Kent or Superman, such an event can have an impact on a character.

              From survivors of the Titanic to sole survivors of airplane crashes or nautical disasters (I think there was a recent one where a teen ager survived a boat disaster, within the past six months, toward Asia or Africa somewhere?), the incident can be crystallizing to a person.

              The youngest survivor of the Donner party had no recollection of the events, but that hardly means the situation didn't still take place in her life.

              To compare such drama as this in Peter's life would be along the lines of if both May and Ben were killed by the burglar and Peter (aside from not stopping the crook when he should have) would now have to deal with that he too would have been murdered had he been in the house with them (say Peter is still new to the usage of his powers and wouldn't have stopped the crook or the crook took him by surprise to prevent even a seemingly normal teen from overpowering him, this being a young man)

              Peter would have to deal with had he been in the house he could have saved them, or heck, he could have done this with Ben, which I guess to an extent he did with the elevator encounter.

              --- In DC_Comics_Uncensored@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Talbot" <lonchaneyjr@...> wrote:
              >
              > In the original concept, Krypton's destruction was pretty much in the abstract. Like telling an adopted child his "real" parents died when he was very young. You feel bad about it, but it isn't as personal as, say, watching them gunned down in an alley. The original Kent's death was sad, yes, but it wasn't tramatic as, well, the alley thing. They died of old age and Clark was old enough to handle it. Face it, Supes didn't have any trauma forming his character until much later (accursed retcons!) The Burne Superman was born after Krypton's destruction, and his human parents were still alive until the recent loss of Jonathan Kent. He didn't even know he was Kryptonian until after he bevame Superman. Unpleasent, yes. Sad, yes. Even traumatic, but Superman has already been on his path for some time, so it isn't connected to how he turned out.

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Larry Talbot
              Ah, now Batman is trauma personified. He still has nightmares of that tragic night. Without them he is less driven. But this didn t really kick in as a
              Message 6 of 21 , Aug 2, 2009
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                Ah, now Batman is trauma personified. He still has nightmares of that tragic night. Without them he is less driven. But this didn't really kick in as a trauma until the late 70s. His parents deaths were always a motivating force, absotively, but the psychology of it took 40+ years to get into the comics. In that respect, Peter Parker with his whole 'woe is me' angst ridden crap came in well ahaead of everybody in DC. But it is still more than a little annoying. The boy actually thrives on his misery. Spidy is self pitying, Bats is self destructive (but is so well trained he keeps avoiding his demise.) Superman is a good guy because he chooses to be. Bats is an anti-hero because he is driven to be. Spidey is a hero because he is guilt-ridden. (Yeesh, get a life already, Parker.)

                Der Wolf

                Ululo Ergo Sum

                http://wulfmann.wordpress.com/

                "English is the result of Norman Men-at-Arms making dates with Saxon Barmaids."
                H. Beam Piper


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Jonathan
                To: DC_Comics_Uncensored@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 11:01 AM
                Subject: Re: [DCU] Spiderman is simply the best! Nothing can compare.


                Yes... But in Batman/Bruce Wayne, Bruce Wayne became a dark warrior of the night due to the violent robbery/murders of his parents Thomas and Martha Wayne at the filthy hands of Joe Chill, a cheap crook...
                Batman/Bruce Wayne was raised in effect by Alfred the Butler and I think, Dr. Leslie Thompkins...
                Bruce would, when he finished his education in Gotham City, would travel the world and study armed and unarmed combat, deductive reasoning and manhunting skills. In short, all the things he would need to become The Dark Knight, Batman.
                A dark and terrible scourge to the criminals and dirtbags of Gotham, and a friend to those who needed his skills...
                Jonathan Michael Reiter
                jmr
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Larry Talbot
                To: DC_Comics_Uncensored@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 8:57 PM
                Subject: Re: [DCU] Spiderman is simply the best! Nothing can compare.

                Well said. I want to add one thing. Nothing in Clark's life, in any version of the character, directly pointed to fis fighting crime. Frankly, he does that as an aside in his busy schedule. Nobody robbed or murdered any of his family. Krypton died of natural causes (originally), as did the parent(s). Why does he do it? Because he had the benefit of good parents, a good upbringing, a stable childhood, and a good community. He he never developed the powers (well, we would have never heard of him) he might still have become a reporter, or stayed on the farm, or taken some other job having little or nothing to do with law-enforcement, or maybe became a cop. Trauma did not create Superman...a stable home and caring parents did.

                Der Wolf

                Ululo Ergo Sum

                http://wulfmann.wordpress.com/

                "English is the result of Norman Men-at-Arms making dates with Saxon Barmaids."
                H. Beam Piper

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Richard J.
                To: DC_Comics_Uncensored@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 5:42 PM
                Subject: Re: [DCU] Spiderman is simply the best! Nothing can compare.

                And Ben Parker's death consisted of what, appearances in three or four panels? We didn't grieve for the loss of Ben Parker, we felt and related to the impact this man we didn't know had on the main character. We barely saw May Parker in Amazing Fantasy #15.

                Plus, you're getting your heroes crossed, if we are going to go to original concepts.

                Ben died in the house from a burglar. The movies established him as dying from a carjacking on the sidewalk. Bruce's parents died in the alley way.

                Tho the movie placed Peter at Ben's death, it was always more effective to me that he wasn't around when Ben needed him (which I think the second movie tried to establish) but the inability to have guilt in the original comic book story (that he wasnt off being selfish, he just wasn't there) was better to me.

                Krypton's destruction could have been highly detailed with fleshed out characters and their causes of death, it would all still be unknown to the infant Kal El, until he watched home movies or something.

                He can have no memories of Krypton's destruction, as even if he time traveled, he would possess the knowledge of the planet's demise and would thereby be unable to be shocked and horrified by anything.

                And even if he hadnt had the Kryptonian powers to such an extent, it is more than likely he would have still suspected there was something different about him (portrayed best in my mind in the first episode of the George Reeves' show. I've always enjoyed the greaser Clark Kent)

                And tho it has never (to my knowledge) been shown the effect that being a sole survivor can have on Clark Kent or Superman, such an event can have an impact on a character.

                From survivors of the Titanic to sole survivors of airplane crashes or nautical disasters (I think there was a recent one where a teen ager survived a boat disaster, within the past six months, toward Asia or Africa somewhere?), the incident can be crystallizing to a person.

                The youngest survivor of the Donner party had no recollection of the events, but that hardly means the situation didn't still take place in her life.

                To compare such drama as this in Peter's life would be along the lines of if both May and Ben were killed by the burglar and Peter (aside from not stopping the crook when he should have) would now have to deal with that he too would have been murdered had he been in the house with them (say Peter is still new to the usage of his powers and wouldn't have stopped the crook or the crook took him by surprise to prevent even a seemingly normal teen from overpowering him, this being a young man)

                Peter would have to deal with had he been in the house he could have saved them, or heck, he could have done this with Ben, which I guess to an extent he did with the elevator encounter.

                --- In DC_Comics_Uncensored@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Talbot" <lonchaneyjr@...> wrote:
                >
                > In the original concept, Krypton's destruction was pretty much in the abstract. Like telling an adopted child his "real" parents died when he was very young. You feel bad about it, but it isn't as personal as, say, watching them gunned down in an alley. The original Kent's death was sad, yes, but it wasn't tramatic as, well, the alley thing. They died of old age and Clark was old enough to handle it. Face it, Supes didn't have any trauma forming his character until much later (accursed retcons!) The Burne Superman was born after Krypton's destruction, and his human parents were still alive until the recent loss of Jonathan Kent. He didn't even know he was Kryptonian until after he bevame Superman. Unpleasent, yes. Sad, yes. Even traumatic, but Superman has already been on his path for some time, so it isn't connected to how he turned out.

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Richard J.
                No, I don t exactly think so. It was those parents who told him he had abilities and he should use them for the greater good of mankind. They were his
                Message 7 of 21 , Aug 2, 2009
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                  No, I don't exactly think so. It was those parents who told him he had abilities and he should use them for the greater good of mankind. They were his direction and motivation (recalling Ma Kent from Reeves tv show).

                  Likewise, in the Reeve movie, he had the flippin' crystal, so clearly there was some intention for him to become a hero, something I have never liked about that movie was his hiking into the frozen outback as a boy and returning a man. I never cared for nor entirely understood that when I used to watch that movie.

                  So he never had any doubt about what he was supposed to do, as Peter Parker had to be inclined toward heroism with the loss of his uncle, and likewise the Thing in the first issue of the FF said to Reed 'yea, yea, we know what youre going to say. We have to use these new powers to help mankind' essentially 'yada, yada, yada'

                  As you yourself said, the original concept of Superman was he was a man of mystery and didn't stand for the recognition, along the same lines as a secret Santa, or the mysterious figure who leaves the enigmatic recognition to Edgar Allan Poe every year on his birthday.

                  Sometimes wish this concept of Superman had been stronger, or lasted longer.

                  --- In DC_Comics_Uncensored@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Talbot" <lonchaneyjr@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Well said. I want to add one thing. Nothing in Clark's life, in any version of the character, directly pointed to fis fighting crime. Frankly, he does that as an aside in his busy schedule. Nobody robbed or murdered any of his family. Krypton died of natural causes (originally), as did the parent(s). Why does he do it? Because he had the benefit of good parents, a good upbringing, a stable childhood, and a good community. He he never developed the powers (well, we would have never heard of him) he might still have become a reporter, or stayed on the farm, or taken some other job having little or nothing to do with law-enforcement, or maybe became a cop. Trauma did not create Superman...a stable home and caring parents did.
                • Richard J.
                  I ve often felt this about Batman!! Get over it already. People have witnessed and endured the deaths of their parents and family members in tragic
                  Message 8 of 21 , Aug 2, 2009
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                    I've often felt this about Batman!!

                    "Get over it already."

                    People have witnessed and endured the deaths of their parents and family members in tragic situations before and since, they get on with their lives. They don't have to have an alter ego to feel like they are doing some good for society to justify what they themselves do.

                    John Walsh lost his son, Nancy Grace was ready to go into elementary school teaching until her boyfriend was murdered and she went into law.

                    The lady in New York became a congresswoman after her husband was killed in the mass subway shooting back in the eighties or nineties, I believe.

                    Do some good, but dont act like your behavior or moodiness is part of what took place with you.

                    --- In DC_Comics_Uncensored@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Talbot" <lonchaneyjr@...> wrote:
                    Ah, now Batman is trauma personified. He still has nightmares of that tragic night. Without them he is less driven. But this didn't really kick in as a trauma until the late 70s. His parents deaths were always a motivating force, absotively, but the psychology of it took 40+ years to get into the comics. In that respect, Peter Parker with his whole 'woe is me' angst ridden crap came in well ahaead of everybody in DC. But it is still more than a little annoying. The boy actually thrives on his misery. Spidy is self pitying, Bats is self destructive (but is so well trained he keeps avoiding his demise.) Superman is a good guy because he chooses to be. Bats is an anti-hero because he is driven to be. Spidey is a hero because he is guilt-ridden. (Yeesh, get a life already, Parker.)
                  • Richard J.
                    I ve often felt that the writer and/or artist who views the red mask of Spiderman literally views him as a different character from Peter Parker, with all the
                    Message 9 of 21 , Aug 2, 2009
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                      I've often felt that the writer and/or artist who views the red mask of Spiderman literally views him as a different character from Peter Parker, with all the wittiness and comebacks.

                      "Oh, it is Peter wearing the mask that enables him to be so clever."

                      I've never bought into that. Mainly reflecting back on the clumsy Peter Parker who was there at the start, tho his Spiderman wasn't altogether clever.

                      It was definitely the seventies Spiderman, perhaps mainly in the Team Ups, who I noticed this with. When he was in the mask, or the writer saw the mask, the character was a stand up comic, but when he was Peter Parker, he was full of the woe and angst you describe.

                      But if he were going to be so clever with villians who didn't know Peter Parker, then some of that cleverness should have spilled over to some extent to Peter Parker, especially when he dealt with JJJ, but that persona seemed to be the whipping boy and had to explode at JJJ on one occassion.

                      If there had ever been a time, say in outer space, where Spiderman fought without the mask, then that would have been some of the unfunniest dialogue ever delivered by the Webhead, cuz I don't think the writer would have looked at the character the same way without the mask.

                      No one in outer space is going to know who Peter Parker is, so the mask wouldn't help, but I don't think the writer would be viewing him the same way.

                      Spiderman was more schizo than Batman-Bruce Wayne was.

                      --- In DC_Comics_Uncensored@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Talbot" <lonchaneyjr@...> wrote:
                      Peter Parker with his whole 'woe is me' angst ridden crap came in well ahaead of everybody in DC. But it is still more than a little annoying. The boy actually thrives on his misery. Spidy is self pitying. Spidey is a hero because he is guilt-ridden. (Yeesh, get a life already, Parker.)
                    • Daniel Ross
                      I think there was a golden age Spiderman from DC comics He had a gun thats shoot webs too Huh? ... From: Larry Talbot Subject: Re:
                      Message 10 of 21 , Aug 5, 2009
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                        I think there was a golden age Spiderman from DC comics He had a gun thats shoot webs too Huh?

                        --- On Mon, 3/8/09, Larry Talbot <lonchaneyjr@...> wrote:


                        From: Larry Talbot <lonchaneyjr@...>
                        Subject: Re: [DCU] Spiderman is simply the best! Nothing can compare.
                        To: DC_Comics_Uncensored@yahoogroups.com
                        Received: Monday, 3 August, 2009, 1:30 AM


                         



                        Ah, now Batman is trauma personified. He still has nightmares of that tragic night. Without them he is less driven. But this didn't really kick in as a trauma until the late 70s. His parents deaths were always a motivating force, absotively, but the psychology of it took 40+ years to get into the comics. In that respect, Peter Parker with his whole 'woe is me' angst ridden crap came in well ahaead of everybody in DC. But it is still more than a little annoying. The boy actually thrives on his misery. Spidy is self pitying, Bats is self destructive (but is so well trained he keeps avoiding his demise.) Superman is a good guy because he chooses to be. Bats is an anti-hero because he is driven to be. Spidey is a hero because he is guilt-ridden. (Yeesh, get a life already, Parker.)

                        Der Wolf

                        Ululo Ergo Sum

                        http://wulfmann. wordpress. com/

                        "English is the result of Norman Men-at-Arms making dates with Saxon Barmaids."
                        H. Beam Piper


                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Jonathan
                        To: DC_Comics_Uncensore d@yahoogroups. com
                        Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 11:01 AM
                        Subject: Re: [DCU] Spiderman is simply the best! Nothing can compare.

                        Yes... But in Batman/Bruce Wayne, Bruce Wayne became a dark warrior of the night due to the violent robbery/murders of his parents Thomas and Martha Wayne at the filthy hands of Joe Chill, a cheap crook...
                        Batman/Bruce Wayne was raised in effect by Alfred the Butler and I think, Dr. Leslie Thompkins...
                        Bruce would, when he finished his education in Gotham City, would travel the world and study armed and unarmed combat, deductive reasoning and manhunting skills. In short, all the things he would need to become The Dark Knight, Batman.
                        A dark and terrible scourge to the criminals and dirtbags of Gotham, and a friend to those who needed his skills...
                        Jonathan Michael Reiter
                        jmr
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Larry Talbot
                        To: DC_Comics_Uncensore d@yahoogroups. com
                        Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 8:57 PM
                        Subject: Re: [DCU] Spiderman is simply the best! Nothing can compare.

                        Well said. I want to add one thing. Nothing in Clark's life, in any version of the character, directly pointed to fis fighting crime. Frankly, he does that as an aside in his busy schedule. Nobody robbed or murdered any of his family. Krypton died of natural causes (originally) , as did the parent(s). Why does he do it? Because he had the benefit of good parents, a good upbringing, a stable childhood, and a good community. He he never developed the powers (well, we would have never heard of him) he might still have become a reporter, or stayed on the farm, or taken some other job having little or nothing to do with law-enforcement, or maybe became a cop. Trauma did not create Superman...a stable home and caring parents did.

                        Der Wolf

                        Ululo Ergo Sum

                        http://wulfmann. wordpress. com/

                        "English is the result of Norman Men-at-Arms making dates with Saxon Barmaids."
                        H. Beam Piper

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Richard J.
                        To: DC_Comics_Uncensore d@yahoogroups. com
                        Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 5:42 PM
                        Subject: Re: [DCU] Spiderman is simply the best! Nothing can compare.

                        And Ben Parker's death consisted of what, appearances in three or four panels? We didn't grieve for the loss of Ben Parker, we felt and related to the impact this man we didn't know had on the main character. We barely saw May Parker in Amazing Fantasy #15.

                        Plus, you're getting your heroes crossed, if we are going to go to original concepts.

                        Ben died in the house from a burglar. The movies established him as dying from a carjacking on the sidewalk. Bruce's parents died in the alley way.

                        Tho the movie placed Peter at Ben's death, it was always more effective to me that he wasn't around when Ben needed him (which I think the second movie tried to establish) but the inability to have guilt in the original comic book story (that he wasnt off being selfish, he just wasn't there) was better to me.

                        Krypton's destruction could have been highly detailed with fleshed out characters and their causes of death, it would all still be unknown to the infant Kal El, until he watched home movies or something.

                        He can have no memories of Krypton's destruction, as even if he time traveled, he would possess the knowledge of the planet's demise and would thereby be unable to be shocked and horrified by anything.

                        And even if he hadnt had the Kryptonian powers to such an extent, it is more than likely he would have still suspected there was something different about him (portrayed best in my mind in the first episode of the George Reeves' show. I've always enjoyed the greaser Clark Kent)

                        And tho it has never (to my knowledge) been shown the effect that being a sole survivor can have on Clark Kent or Superman, such an event can have an impact on a character.

                        From survivors of the Titanic to sole survivors of airplane crashes or nautical disasters (I think there was a recent one where a teen ager survived a boat disaster, within the past six months, toward Asia or Africa somewhere?), the incident can be crystallizing to a person.

                        The youngest survivor of the Donner party had no recollection of the events, but that hardly means the situation didn't still take place in her life.

                        To compare such drama as this in Peter's life would be along the lines of if both May and Ben were killed by the burglar and Peter (aside from not stopping the crook when he should have) would now have to deal with that he too would have been murdered had he been in the house with them (say Peter is still new to the usage of his powers and wouldn't have stopped the crook or the crook took him by surprise to prevent even a seemingly normal teen from overpowering him, this being a young man)

                        Peter would have to deal with had he been in the house he could have saved them, or heck, he could have done this with Ben, which I guess to an extent he did with the elevator encounter.

                        --- In DC_Comics_Uncensore d@yahoogroups. com, "Larry Talbot" <lonchaneyjr@ ...> wrote:
                        >
                        > In the original concept, Krypton's destruction was pretty much in the abstract. Like telling an adopted child his "real" parents died when he was very young. You feel bad about it, but it isn't as personal as, say, watching them gunned down in an alley. The original Kent's death was sad, yes, but it wasn't tramatic as, well, the alley thing. They died of old age and Clark was old enough to handle it. Face it, Supes didn't have any trauma forming his character until much later (accursed retcons!) The Burne Superman was born after Krypton's destruction, and his human parents were still alive until the recent loss of Jonathan Kent. He didn't even know he was Kryptonian until after he bevame Superman. Unpleasent, yes. Sad, yes. Even traumatic, but Superman has already been on his path for some time, so it isn't connected to how he turned out.

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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                      • Larry Talbot
                        That was the Tarantula. I think his secret ID was John Law or something inane like that. He worked with the All-Star Squadron. He was occasionally called a
                        Message 11 of 21 , Aug 6, 2009
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                          That was the Tarantula. I think his secret ID was John Law or something inane like that. He worked with the All-Star Squadron.

                          He was occasionally called a "spider-man" in much the way Spidey could be called "that bug guy."

                          Der Wolf

                          Ululo Ergo Sum

                          http://wulfmann.wordpress.com/

                          "English is the result of Norman Men-at-Arms making dates with Saxon Barmaids."
                          H. Beam Piper


                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Daniel Ross
                          To: DC_Comics_Uncensored@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 11:14 PM
                          Subject: Re: [DCU] Spiderman is simply the best! Nothing can compare.


                          I think there was a golden age Spiderman from DC comics He had a gun thats shoot webs too Huh?

                          --- On Mon, 3/8/09, Larry Talbot <lonchaneyjr@...> wrote:

                          From: Larry Talbot <lonchaneyjr@...>
                          Subject: Re: [DCU] Spiderman is simply the best! Nothing can compare.
                          To: DC_Comics_Uncensored@yahoogroups.com
                          Received: Monday, 3 August, 2009, 1:30 AM



                          Ah, now Batman is trauma personified. He still has nightmares of that tragic night. Without them he is less driven. But this didn't really kick in as a trauma until the late 70s. His parents deaths were always a motivating force, absotively, but the psychology of it took 40+ years to get into the comics. In that respect, Peter Parker with his whole 'woe is me' angst ridden crap came in well ahaead of everybody in DC. But it is still more than a little annoying. The boy actually thrives on his misery. Spidy is self pitying, Bats is self destructive (but is so well trained he keeps avoiding his demise.) Superman is a good guy because he chooses to be. Bats is an anti-hero because he is driven to be. Spidey is a hero because he is guilt-ridden. (Yeesh, get a life already, Parker.)

                          Der Wolf

                          Ululo Ergo Sum

                          http://wulfmann. wordpress. com/

                          "English is the result of Norman Men-at-Arms making dates with Saxon Barmaids."
                          H. Beam Piper

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Jonathan
                          To: DC_Comics_Uncensore d@yahoogroups. com
                          Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 11:01 AM
                          Subject: Re: [DCU] Spiderman is simply the best! Nothing can compare.

                          Yes... But in Batman/Bruce Wayne, Bruce Wayne became a dark warrior of the night due to the violent robbery/murders of his parents Thomas and Martha Wayne at the filthy hands of Joe Chill, a cheap crook...
                          Batman/Bruce Wayne was raised in effect by Alfred the Butler and I think, Dr. Leslie Thompkins...
                          Bruce would, when he finished his education in Gotham City, would travel the world and study armed and unarmed combat, deductive reasoning and manhunting skills. In short, all the things he would need to become The Dark Knight, Batman.
                          A dark and terrible scourge to the criminals and dirtbags of Gotham, and a friend to those who needed his skills...
                          Jonathan Michael Reiter
                          jmr
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Larry Talbot
                          To: DC_Comics_Uncensore d@yahoogroups. com
                          Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 8:57 PM
                          Subject: Re: [DCU] Spiderman is simply the best! Nothing can compare.

                          Well said. I want to add one thing. Nothing in Clark's life, in any version of the character, directly pointed to fis fighting crime. Frankly, he does that as an aside in his busy schedule. Nobody robbed or murdered any of his family. Krypton died of natural causes (originally) , as did the parent(s). Why does he do it? Because he had the benefit of good parents, a good upbringing, a stable childhood, and a good community. He he never developed the powers (well, we would have never heard of him) he might still have become a reporter, or stayed on the farm, or taken some other job having little or nothing to do with law-enforcement, or maybe became a cop. Trauma did not create Superman...a stable home and caring parents did.

                          Der Wolf

                          Ululo Ergo Sum

                          http://wulfmann. wordpress. com/

                          "English is the result of Norman Men-at-Arms making dates with Saxon Barmaids."
                          H. Beam Piper

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Richard J.
                          To: DC_Comics_Uncensore d@yahoogroups. com
                          Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 5:42 PM
                          Subject: Re: [DCU] Spiderman is simply the best! Nothing can compare.

                          And Ben Parker's death consisted of what, appearances in three or four panels? We didn't grieve for the loss of Ben Parker, we felt and related to the impact this man we didn't know had on the main character. We barely saw May Parker in Amazing Fantasy #15.

                          Plus, you're getting your heroes crossed, if we are going to go to original concepts.

                          Ben died in the house from a burglar. The movies established him as dying from a carjacking on the sidewalk. Bruce's parents died in the alley way.

                          Tho the movie placed Peter at Ben's death, it was always more effective to me that he wasn't around when Ben needed him (which I think the second movie tried to establish) but the inability to have guilt in the original comic book story (that he wasnt off being selfish, he just wasn't there) was better to me.

                          Krypton's destruction could have been highly detailed with fleshed out characters and their causes of death, it would all still be unknown to the infant Kal El, until he watched home movies or something.

                          He can have no memories of Krypton's destruction, as even if he time traveled, he would possess the knowledge of the planet's demise and would thereby be unable to be shocked and horrified by anything.

                          And even if he hadnt had the Kryptonian powers to such an extent, it is more than likely he would have still suspected there was something different about him (portrayed best in my mind in the first episode of the George Reeves' show. I've always enjoyed the greaser Clark Kent)

                          And tho it has never (to my knowledge) been shown the effect that being a sole survivor can have on Clark Kent or Superman, such an event can have an impact on a character.

                          From survivors of the Titanic to sole survivors of airplane crashes or nautical disasters (I think there was a recent one where a teen ager survived a boat disaster, within the past six months, toward Asia or Africa somewhere?), the incident can be crystallizing to a person.

                          The youngest survivor of the Donner party had no recollection of the events, but that hardly means the situation didn't still take place in her life.

                          To compare such drama as this in Peter's life would be along the lines of if both May and Ben were killed by the burglar and Peter (aside from not stopping the crook when he should have) would now have to deal with that he too would have been murdered had he been in the house with them (say Peter is still new to the usage of his powers and wouldn't have stopped the crook or the crook took him by surprise to prevent even a seemingly normal teen from overpowering him, this being a young man)

                          Peter would have to deal with had he been in the house he could have saved them, or heck, he could have done this with Ben, which I guess to an extent he did with the elevator encounter.

                          --- In DC_Comics_Uncensore d@yahoogroups. com, "Larry Talbot" <lonchaneyjr@ ...> wrote:
                          >
                          > In the original concept, Krypton's destruction was pretty much in the abstract. Like telling an adopted child his "real" parents died when he was very young. You feel bad about it, but it isn't as personal as, say, watching them gunned down in an alley. The original Kent's death was sad, yes, but it wasn't tramatic as, well, the alley thing. They died of old age and Clark was old enough to handle it. Face it, Supes didn't have any trauma forming his character until much later (accursed retcons!) The Burne Superman was born after Krypton's destruction, and his human parents were still alive until the recent loss of Jonathan Kent. He didn't even know he was Kryptonian until after he bevame Superman. Unpleasent, yes. Sad, yes. Even traumatic, but Superman has already been on his path for some time, so it isn't connected to how he turned out.

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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                          Find local businesses and services in your area with Yahoo!7 Local.
                          Get started: http://local.yahoo.com.au

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                        • Larry Talbot
                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarantula_(DC_Comics) Der Wolf Ululo Ergo Sum http://wulfmann.wordpress.com/ English is the result of Norman Men-at-Arms making
                          Message 12 of 21 , Aug 6, 2009
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                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarantula_(DC_Comics)


                            Der Wolf

                            Ululo Ergo Sum

                            http://wulfmann.wordpress.com/

                            "English is the result of Norman Men-at-Arms making dates with Saxon Barmaids."
                            H. Beam Piper


                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Daniel Ross
                            To: DC_Comics_Uncensored@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 11:14 PM
                            Subject: Re: [DCU] Spiderman is simply the best! Nothing can compare.


                            I think there was a golden age Spiderman from DC comics He had a gun thats shoot webs too Huh?

                            --- On Mon, 3/8/09, Larry Talbot <lonchaneyjr@...> wrote:

                            From: Larry Talbot <lonchaneyjr@...>
                            Subject: Re: [DCU] Spiderman is simply the best! Nothing can compare.
                            To: DC_Comics_Uncensored@yahoogroups.com
                            Received: Monday, 3 August, 2009, 1:30 AM



                            Ah, now Batman is trauma personified. He still has nightmares of that tragic night. Without them he is less driven. But this didn't really kick in as a trauma until the late 70s. His parents deaths were always a motivating force, absotively, but the psychology of it took 40+ years to get into the comics. In that respect, Peter Parker with his whole 'woe is me' angst ridden crap came in well ahaead of everybody in DC. But it is still more than a little annoying. The boy actually thrives on his misery. Spidy is self pitying, Bats is self destructive (but is so well trained he keeps avoiding his demise.) Superman is a good guy because he chooses to be. Bats is an anti-hero because he is driven to be. Spidey is a hero because he is guilt-ridden. (Yeesh, get a life already, Parker.)

                            Der Wolf

                            Ululo Ergo Sum

                            http://wulfmann. wordpress. com/

                            "English is the result of Norman Men-at-Arms making dates with Saxon Barmaids."
                            H. Beam Piper

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Jonathan
                            To: DC_Comics_Uncensore d@yahoogroups. com
                            Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 11:01 AM
                            Subject: Re: [DCU] Spiderman is simply the best! Nothing can compare.

                            Yes... But in Batman/Bruce Wayne, Bruce Wayne became a dark warrior of the night due to the violent robbery/murders of his parents Thomas and Martha Wayne at the filthy hands of Joe Chill, a cheap crook...
                            Batman/Bruce Wayne was raised in effect by Alfred the Butler and I think, Dr. Leslie Thompkins...
                            Bruce would, when he finished his education in Gotham City, would travel the world and study armed and unarmed combat, deductive reasoning and manhunting skills. In short, all the things he would need to become The Dark Knight, Batman.
                            A dark and terrible scourge to the criminals and dirtbags of Gotham, and a friend to those who needed his skills...
                            Jonathan Michael Reiter
                            jmr
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Larry Talbot
                            To: DC_Comics_Uncensore d@yahoogroups. com
                            Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 8:57 PM
                            Subject: Re: [DCU] Spiderman is simply the best! Nothing can compare.

                            Well said. I want to add one thing. Nothing in Clark's life, in any version of the character, directly pointed to fis fighting crime. Frankly, he does that as an aside in his busy schedule. Nobody robbed or murdered any of his family. Krypton died of natural causes (originally) , as did the parent(s). Why does he do it? Because he had the benefit of good parents, a good upbringing, a stable childhood, and a good community. He he never developed the powers (well, we would have never heard of him) he might still have become a reporter, or stayed on the farm, or taken some other job having little or nothing to do with law-enforcement, or maybe became a cop. Trauma did not create Superman...a stable home and caring parents did.

                            Der Wolf

                            Ululo Ergo Sum

                            http://wulfmann. wordpress. com/

                            "English is the result of Norman Men-at-Arms making dates with Saxon Barmaids."
                            H. Beam Piper

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Richard J.
                            To: DC_Comics_Uncensore d@yahoogroups. com
                            Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 5:42 PM
                            Subject: Re: [DCU] Spiderman is simply the best! Nothing can compare.

                            And Ben Parker's death consisted of what, appearances in three or four panels? We didn't grieve for the loss of Ben Parker, we felt and related to the impact this man we didn't know had on the main character. We barely saw May Parker in Amazing Fantasy #15.

                            Plus, you're getting your heroes crossed, if we are going to go to original concepts.

                            Ben died in the house from a burglar. The movies established him as dying from a carjacking on the sidewalk. Bruce's parents died in the alley way.

                            Tho the movie placed Peter at Ben's death, it was always more effective to me that he wasn't around when Ben needed him (which I think the second movie tried to establish) but the inability to have guilt in the original comic book story (that he wasnt off being selfish, he just wasn't there) was better to me.

                            Krypton's destruction could have been highly detailed with fleshed out characters and their causes of death, it would all still be unknown to the infant Kal El, until he watched home movies or something.

                            He can have no memories of Krypton's destruction, as even if he time traveled, he would possess the knowledge of the planet's demise and would thereby be unable to be shocked and horrified by anything.

                            And even if he hadnt had the Kryptonian powers to such an extent, it is more than likely he would have still suspected there was something different about him (portrayed best in my mind in the first episode of the George Reeves' show. I've always enjoyed the greaser Clark Kent)

                            And tho it has never (to my knowledge) been shown the effect that being a sole survivor can have on Clark Kent or Superman, such an event can have an impact on a character.

                            From survivors of the Titanic to sole survivors of airplane crashes or nautical disasters (I think there was a recent one where a teen ager survived a boat disaster, within the past six months, toward Asia or Africa somewhere?), the incident can be crystallizing to a person.

                            The youngest survivor of the Donner party had no recollection of the events, but that hardly means the situation didn't still take place in her life.

                            To compare such drama as this in Peter's life would be along the lines of if both May and Ben were killed by the burglar and Peter (aside from not stopping the crook when he should have) would now have to deal with that he too would have been murdered had he been in the house with them (say Peter is still new to the usage of his powers and wouldn't have stopped the crook or the crook took him by surprise to prevent even a seemingly normal teen from overpowering him, this being a young man)

                            Peter would have to deal with had he been in the house he could have saved them, or heck, he could have done this with Ben, which I guess to an extent he did with the elevator encounter.

                            --- In DC_Comics_Uncensore d@yahoogroups. com, "Larry Talbot" <lonchaneyjr@ ...> wrote:
                            >
                            > In the original concept, Krypton's destruction was pretty much in the abstract. Like telling an adopted child his "real" parents died when he was very young. You feel bad about it, but it isn't as personal as, say, watching them gunned down in an alley. The original Kent's death was sad, yes, but it wasn't tramatic as, well, the alley thing. They died of old age and Clark was old enough to handle it. Face it, Supes didn't have any trauma forming his character until much later (accursed retcons!) The Burne Superman was born after Krypton's destruction, and his human parents were still alive until the recent loss of Jonathan Kent. He didn't even know he was Kryptonian until after he bevame Superman. Unpleasent, yes. Sad, yes. Even traumatic, but Superman has already been on his path for some time, so it isn't connected to how he turned out.

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                            __________________________________________________________
                            Find local businesses and services in your area with Yahoo!7 Local.
                            Get started: http://local.yahoo.com.au

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                          • Darci
                            Daniel, There was a Golden Age Spiderman from Fawcett.  See Whiz Comics #89 (Sept 1947), for the story Webs of Crime. Darci ________________________________
                            Message 13 of 21 , Aug 6, 2009
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                              Daniel,
                              There was a Golden Age Spiderman from Fawcett.  See Whiz Comics #89 (Sept 1947), for the story "Webs of Crime."
                              Darci




                              ________________________________
                              From: Daniel Ross <standinggreenman@...>
                              To: DC_Comics_Uncensored@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2009 10:14:29 PM
                              Subject: Re: [DCU] Spiderman is simply the best! Nothing can compare.

                               
                              I think there was a golden age Spiderman from DC comics He had a gun thats shoot webs too Huh?

                              --- On Mon, 3/8/09, Larry Talbot <lonchaneyjr@ banyanol. com> wrote:

                              From: Larry Talbot <lonchaneyjr@ banyanol. com>
                              Subject: Re: [DCU] Spiderman is simply the best! Nothing can compare.
                              To: DC_Comics_Uncensore d@yahoogroups. com
                              Received: Monday, 3 August, 2009, 1:30 AM

                               

                              Ah, now Batman is trauma personified. He still has nightmares of that tragic night. Without them he is less driven. But this didn't really kick in as a trauma until the late 70s. His parents deaths were always a motivating force, absotively, but the psychology of it took 40+ years to get into the comics. In that respect, Peter Parker with his whole 'woe is me' angst ridden crap came in well ahaead of everybody in DC. But it is still more than a little annoying. The boy actually thrives on his misery. Spidy is self pitying, Bats is self destructive (but is so well trained he keeps avoiding his demise.) Superman is a good guy because he chooses to be. Bats is an anti-hero because he is driven to be. Spidey is a hero because he is guilt-ridden. (Yeesh, get a life already, Parker.)

                              Der Wolf

                              Ululo Ergo Sum

                              http://wulfmann. wordpress. com/

                              "English is the result of Norman Men-at-Arms making dates with Saxon Barmaids."
                              H. Beam Piper

                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: Jonathan
                              To: DC_Comics_Uncensore d@yahoogroups. com
                              Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 11:01 AM
                              Subject: Re: [DCU] Spiderman is simply the best! Nothing can compare.

                              Yes... But in Batman/Bruce Wayne, Bruce Wayne became a dark warrior of the night due to the violent robbery/murders of his parents Thomas and Martha Wayne at the filthy hands of Joe Chill, a cheap crook...
                              Batman/Bruce Wayne was raised in effect by Alfred the Butler and I think, Dr. Leslie Thompkins...
                              Bruce would, when he finished his education in Gotham City, would travel the world and study armed and unarmed combat, deductive reasoning and manhunting skills. In short, all the things he would need to become The Dark Knight, Batman.
                              A dark and terrible scourge to the criminals and dirtbags of Gotham, and a friend to those who needed his skills...
                              Jonathan Michael Reiter
                              jmr
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: Larry Talbot
                              To: DC_Comics_Uncensore d@yahoogroups. com
                              Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 8:57 PM
                              Subject: Re: [DCU] Spiderman is simply the best! Nothing can compare.

                              Well said. I want to add one thing. Nothing in Clark's life, in any version of the character, directly pointed to fis fighting crime. Frankly, he does that as an aside in his busy schedule. Nobody robbed or murdered any of his family. Krypton died of natural causes (originally) , as did the parent(s). Why does he do it? Because he had the benefit of good parents, a good upbringing, a stable childhood, and a good community. He he never developed the powers (well, we would have never heard of him) he might still have become a reporter, or stayed on the farm, or taken some other job having little or nothing to do with law-enforcement, or maybe became a cop. Trauma did not create Superman...a stable home and caring parents did.

                              Der Wolf

                              Ululo Ergo Sum

                              http://wulfmann. wordpress. com/

                              "English is the result of Norman Men-at-Arms making dates with Saxon Barmaids."
                              H. Beam Piper

                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: Richard J.
                              To: DC_Comics_Uncensore d@yahoogroups. com
                              Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 5:42 PM
                              Subject: Re: [DCU] Spiderman is simply the best! Nothing can compare.

                              And Ben Parker's death consisted of what, appearances in three or four panels? We didn't grieve for the loss of Ben Parker, we felt and related to the impact this man we didn't know had on the main character. We barely saw May Parker in Amazing Fantasy #15.

                              Plus, you're getting your heroes crossed, if we are going to go to original concepts.

                              Ben died in the house from a burglar. The movies established him as dying from a carjacking on the sidewalk. Bruce's parents died in the alley way.

                              Tho the movie placed Peter at Ben's death, it was always more effective to me that he wasn't around when Ben needed him (which I think the second movie tried to establish) but the inability to have guilt in the original comic book story (that he wasnt off being selfish, he just wasn't there) was better to me.

                              Krypton's destruction could have been highly detailed with fleshed out characters and their causes of death, it would all still be unknown to the infant Kal El, until he watched home movies or something.

                              He can have no memories of Krypton's destruction, as even if he time traveled, he would possess the knowledge of the planet's demise and would thereby be unable to be shocked and horrified by anything.

                              And even if he hadnt had the Kryptonian powers to such an extent, it is more than likely he would have still suspected there was something different about him (portrayed best in my mind in the first episode of the George Reeves' show. I've always enjoyed the greaser Clark Kent)

                              And tho it has never (to my knowledge) been shown the effect that being a sole survivor can have on Clark Kent or Superman, such an event can have an impact on a character.

                              From survivors of the Titanic to sole survivors of airplane crashes or nautical disasters (I think there was a recent one where a teen ager survived a boat disaster, within the past six months, toward Asia or Africa somewhere?), the incident can be crystallizing to a person.

                              The youngest survivor of the Donner party had no recollection of the events, but that hardly means the situation didn't still take place in her life.

                              To compare such drama as this in Peter's life would be along the lines of if both May and Ben were killed by the burglar and Peter (aside from not stopping the crook when he should have) would now have to deal with that he too would have been murdered had he been in the house with them (say Peter is still new to the usage of his powers and wouldn't have stopped the crook or the crook took him by surprise to prevent even a seemingly normal teen from overpowering him, this being a young man)

                              Peter would have to deal with had he been in the house he could have saved them, or heck, he could have done this with Ben, which I guess to an extent he did with the elevator encounter.

                              --- In DC_Comics_Uncensore d@yahoogroups. com, "Larry Talbot" <lonchaneyjr@ ...> wrote:
                              >
                              > In the original concept, Krypton's destruction was pretty much in the abstract. Like telling an adopted child his "real" parents died when he was very young. You feel bad about it, but it isn't as personal as, say, watching them gunned down in an alley. The original Kent's death was sad, yes, but it wasn't tramatic as, well, the alley thing. They died of old age and Clark was old enough to handle it. Face it, Supes didn't have any trauma forming his character until much later (accursed retcons!) The Burne Superman was born after Krypton's destruction, and his human parents were still alive until the recent loss of Jonathan Kent. He didn't even know he was Kryptonian until after he bevame Superman. Unpleasent, yes. Sad, yes. Even traumatic, but Superman has already been on his path for some time, so it isn't connected to how he turned out.

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                            • primitivx
                              About 30 years ago I read a Spider-man book, in a smaller book format instead of tabloid. Spider-man was in his 50s, wore no mask, and had a costume a lot like
                              Message 14 of 21 , Aug 6, 2009
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                                About 30 years ago I read a Spider-man book, in a smaller book format instead of tabloid. Spider-man was in his 50s, wore no mask, and had a costume a lot like the one the Punisher has. Spider-man also used guns to shoot his webs.

                                He was a more cynical character, and I think killing wasn't a problem for him anymore. Anybody ever read that book? It wasn't published by Marvel.
                              • Jonathan
                                How about by Atlas? Jonathan Michael Reiter jmr ... From: primitivx To: DC_Comics_Uncensored@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 11:31 AM Subject:
                                Message 15 of 21 , Aug 6, 2009
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                                  How about by Atlas?
                                  Jonathan Michael Reiter
                                  jmr
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: primitivx
                                  To: DC_Comics_Uncensored@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 11:31 AM
                                  Subject: [DCU] Re: Spiderman is simply the best! Nothing can compare.


                                  About 30 years ago I read a Spider-man book, in a smaller book format instead of tabloid. Spider-man was in his 50s, wore no mask, and had a costume a lot like the one the Punisher has. Spider-man also used guns to shoot his webs.

                                  He was a more cynical character, and I think killing wasn't a problem for him anymore. Anybody ever read that book? It wasn't published by Marvel.






                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Larry Talbot
                                  If it wasn t printed by Marvel or Curtis, then it would be either an underground comic, or something altogether different. It sounds more like the Tarantula,
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Aug 6, 2009
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                                    If it wasn't printed by Marvel or Curtis, then it would be either an underground comic, or something altogether different. It sounds more like the Tarantula, who also had web-guns. I am guessing it was not Peter Parker in any case. Lessee...late 70s...I was in the army off in Germany, so I would never havs seen it. But the age and equipment really sounds like the Tarantula. Now, there have been a few of those as well. The Golden Age one, likely printed by Fawcett and absorbed by DC (like Captain Marvel, Ibis, Bulletman and others.) The second one was a 2-bit villain for Spiderman, 1st appearing in Spectacular Spider-man #1. An acrobat with poisoned points on his boots (yeah, seriously lame.) Then you have the Tarantula from Atlas Comics who was a villain that occasionally took out other villains. He was the result of a family curse ala the Wolfman. It lived on human flesh. Cheesy to say the least. Not the Atlas that pre-dated Marvel, but a short-lived company in the mid-70s.

                                    Der Wolf

                                    Ululo Ergo Sum

                                    http://wulfmann.wordpress.com/

                                    "English is the result of Norman Men-at-Arms making dates with Saxon Barmaids."
                                    H. Beam Piper


                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: primitivx
                                    To: DC_Comics_Uncensored@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 1:31 PM
                                    Subject: [DCU] Re: Spiderman is simply the best! Nothing can compare.


                                    About 30 years ago I read a Spider-man book, in a smaller book format instead of tabloid. Spider-man was in his 50s, wore no mask, and had a costume a lot like the one the Punisher has. Spider-man also used guns to shoot his webs.

                                    He was a more cynical character, and I think killing wasn't a problem for him anymore. Anybody ever read that book? It wasn't published by Marvel.





                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Larry Talbot
                                    I have all the Atlas Comics (70s company) except for Gothic Romance. Der Wolf Ululo Ergo Sum http://wulfmann.wordpress.com/ English is the result of Norman
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Aug 6, 2009
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                                      I have all the Atlas Comics (70s company) except for Gothic Romance.

                                      Der Wolf

                                      Ululo Ergo Sum

                                      http://wulfmann.wordpress.com/

                                      "English is the result of Norman Men-at-Arms making dates with Saxon Barmaids."
                                      H. Beam Piper


                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: Jonathan
                                      To: DC_Comics_Uncensored@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 1:36 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [DCU] Re: Spiderman is simply the best! Nothing can compare.


                                      How about by Atlas?
                                      Jonathan Michael Reiter
                                      jmr
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: primitivx
                                      To: DC_Comics_Uncensored@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 11:31 AM
                                      Subject: [DCU] Re: Spiderman is simply the best! Nothing can compare.

                                      About 30 years ago I read a Spider-man book, in a smaller book format instead of tabloid. Spider-man was in his 50s, wore no mask, and had a costume a lot like the one the Punisher has. Spider-man also used guns to shoot his webs.

                                      He was a more cynical character, and I think killing wasn't a problem for him anymore. Anybody ever read that book? It wasn't published by Marvel.

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                                    • primitivx
                                      ... Yes it was definitively Peter Parker. It could even have been titled Peter Parker, the Spider-man. Or something like that. I lost that book a long time ago
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Aug 6, 2009
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                                        --- In DC_Comics_Uncensored@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Talbot" <lonchaneyjr@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > If it wasn't printed by Marvel or Curtis, then it would be either an underground comic, or something altogether different. It sounds more like the Tarantula, who also had web-guns. I am guessing it was not Peter Parker in any case.

                                        Yes it was definitively Peter Parker. It could even have been titled Peter Parker, the Spider-man. Or something like that. I lost that book a long time ago and I have been trying to find another copy ever since.
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