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Historical Norman Advice

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  • Paul.UK.Ryan@chase.com
    Hi I was at a convention the other weekend and decided to pick up a 15mm Norman DBA army (III/51 under the new book). The figure manufacturer that I normaly
    Message 1 of 10 , Jul 31, 2001
      Hi

      I was at a convention the other weekend and decided to pick up a 15mm
      Norman DBA army (III/51 under the new book). The figure manufacturer that
      I normaly use was not present so I bought them from another supplier. Now
      I should of checked the pack and the smallprint but I didn't. So I have
      the following possible problems....

      None of the Knights come with either lance or spear. Which do I need to
      make for them to be accurate?

      The same is true of the Cavalry and Light Horse, is it spear for these?

      I have no general model, is there another acceptable way of representing
      the general? (ie. can I just make the paint job different or do I need to
      bother to mail order just one more figure from these people!)

      I was expecting crossbowmen but I have bow instead. Looking at the DBA
      Version 2 book it does say Bw not Cb. Are the bowmen correct or should I
      really replace them with crossbow?

      I have no Ps models so I can only assume I'm supposed to use the archers as
      I have more than enough for the Bw elements, is this correct for the army?

      I'd rather not buy anything else from these people so is there another army
      that is predominantly Knights that are in mail with Kite shields, have some
      spear and archers that I could pass this lot off as?

      Does anyone have a way of going back in time so I can buy them from my
      usually manufacturer as I've never had a problem with them!!!!

      Does anyone want some cheep Norman style models to complete a project or
      something?

      Thanks
      Paul
    • p.crozier@tees.ac.uk
      ... Hi Paul ... 15mm ... manufacturer that ... supplier. Now ... have ... need to ... Normans used a spear as a lance (thrusting spear) or even a throwing
      Message 2 of 10 , Aug 1 1:34 AM
        --- In DBA@y..., Paul.UK.Ryan@c... wrote:
        >
        > Hi

        Hi Paul

        > I was at a convention the other weekend and decided to pick up a
        15mm
        > Norman DBA army (III/51 under the new book). The figure
        manufacturer that
        > I normaly use was not present so I bought them from another
        supplier. Now
        > I should of checked the pack and the smallprint but I didn't. So I
        have
        > the following possible problems....
        >
        > None of the Knights come with either lance or spear. Which do I
        need to
        > make for them to be accurate?
        >

        Normans used a spear as a lance (thrusting spear) or even a throwing
        spear. So just a pointy stick, nothing fancy.

        The same is true of the Cavalry and Light Horse, is it spear for
        these?

        Depends - Norman light horse are often depicted/modelled exactly the
        same at the knights except without armour. However its possible they
        could be Gascon light horse who would i believe be more likely to
        use javelins rather than a spear. Cavalry! i assume these are
        Bretons - Armed just the same as Normans.

        > I have no general model, is there another acceptable way of
        representing
        > the general? (ie. can I just make the paint job different or do I
        need to
        > bother to mail order just one more figure from these people!)
        >

        Just paint him up a bit fancy and turn 1 or both of the riders with
        him on his element to banner bearers.

        > I was expecting crossbowmen but I have bow instead. Looking at the
        DBA
        > Version 2 book it does say Bw not Cb. Are the bowmen correct or
        should I
        > really replace them with crossbow?
        >

        Bowmen definitely - crossbowmen would be very rare in a Norman army,
        especially at DBA level

        > I have no Ps models so I can only assume I'm supposed to use the
        archers as
        > I have more than enough for the Bw elements, is this correct for
        the army?
        >
        Yep, Skirmishing Archers would be Psiloi, Formed Mass Archers the
        Bows.

        > I'd rather not buy anything else from these people so is there
        another army
        > that is predominantly Knights that are in mail with Kite shields,
        have some
        > spear and archers that I could pass this lot off as?
        >

        Oh loads - Anglo Normans for a Start, plus Early Medieval German,
        Early Feudal French, probably even early Feudal Spanish (with 1 or 2
        round shields if poss')- Without the armies list in front of me but
        i'm sure that Sicilian Norman would be fine plus various Italian
        Contingents. Plus of course, the one true army - Early Crusaders! So
        any European Feudals upto approx 1170ish before you start to see a
        change in shields (he says trying to recall from his last browse
        through WRG AFE)

        > Does anyone have a way of going back in time so I can buy them from
        my
        > usually manufacturer as I've never had a problem with them!!!!
        >

        Sorry, short of asking superman to whiz antoclokwise round the planet
        i'm afraid not!!!

        Which manufacturer are these Normans from and who is your usual
        manufacturer?

        Rgds - Paul.


        >Does anyone want some cheep Norman style models to complete a
        >project or
        > something?
        >
        > Thanks
        > Paul
      • Paul Ryan
        ... throwing ... Thought it might be a spear rather than a full blown lance. Beleive me they will be nothing fancy :o) ... the ... they ... These are army
        Message 3 of 10 , Aug 1 7:39 AM
          --- In DBA@y..., p.crozier@t... wrote:
          >
          > Normans used a spear as a lance (thrusting spear) or even a
          throwing
          > spear. So just a pointy stick, nothing fancy.
          >

          Thought it might be a spear rather than a full blown lance. Beleive
          me they will be nothing fancy :o)

          >
          > Depends - Norman light horse are often depicted/modelled exactly
          the
          > same at the knights except without armour. However its possible
          they
          > could be Gascon light horse who would i believe be more likely to
          > use javelins rather than a spear. Cavalry! i assume these are
          > Bretons - Armed just the same as Normans.
          >

          These are army options so I might just go completely with Kn and save
          my self some trouble.

          > Just paint him up a bit fancy and turn 1 or both of the riders with
          > him on his element to banner bearers.
          >

          Good news. I already have more stuff than I need, don't want to buy
          any more.

          >
          > Bowmen definitely - crossbowmen would be very rare in a Norman
          army,
          > especially at DBA level
          >

          My misunderstanding, at least I have the correct figures.

          > >
          > Yep, Skirmishing Archers would be Psiloi, Formed Mass Archers the
          > Bows.
          >

          More good news.

          >
          > Oh loads - Anglo Normans for a Start, plus Early Medieval German,
          > Early Feudal French, probably even early Feudal Spanish (with 1 or
          2
          > round shields if poss')- Without the armies list in front of me but
          > i'm sure that Sicilian Norman would be fine plus various Italian
          > Contingents. Plus of course, the one true army - Early Crusaders!
          So
          > any European Feudals upto approx 1170ish before you start to see a
          > change in shields (he says trying to recall from his last browse
          > through WRG AFE)

          Thanks for that. I love to wargame but my history comes mostly from
          novels and Hollywood films so is always very suspect! I am learning
          though.

          >
          > Sorry, short of asking superman to whiz antoclokwise round the
          planet
          > i'm afraid not!!!

          And with all these great answers I thought you were Superman!

          >
          > Which manufacturer are these Normans from and who is your usual
          > manufacturer?
          >

          I usually use Essex Miniatures. I have no comparison for figure
          quality but these people are always helpful, quick and I have never
          had a problem. The 'new' stuff was from Falcon Figures and it's
          probably not fair to be as annoyed at them as I am. There catalog
          does state the lack of spear in the Knight packs I just 'assumed'
          that they would be there like Essex do. I paid more for these than I
          would have at Essex because again I assumed that I would get the
          figures I needed and not just figure packs that meant I ended up with
          more figures than I wanted. Basically because of my assumptions I
          have paid more and have to make spears. Not completely the fault of
          Falcon Figures is it? My real annoyance comes from them not replying
          to my email. I got the information from this list (You) within
          hours. I'm still waiting for them to even acknowledge my email after
          three days.

          Thanks for the help. As I have correct figures apart from the spears
          I'll continue to keep these guys as Normans. My real problem is that
          I want almost every army at DBA level!!!! I'm just off to check out
          the Early Crusader list.....

          Thanks again
          Paul
        • p.crozier@tees.ac.uk
          ... spears ... that ... out ... Ah! I assume its Falcon UK - i have an order for various civilians with them thats being outstanding for 2 months approx - i
          Message 4 of 10 , Aug 2 1:03 AM
            --- In DBA@y..., "Paul Ryan" <Paul.UK.Ryan@c...> wrote:
            >
            > Thanks for the help. As I have correct figures apart from the
            spears
            > I'll continue to keep these guys as Normans. My real problem is
            that
            > I want almost every army at DBA level!!!! I'm just off to check
            out
            > the Early Crusader list.....
            >
            > Thanks again
            > Paul

            Ah! I assume its Falcon UK - i have an order for various civilians
            with them thats being outstanding for 2 months approx - i think i
            read somwhere that the guy who runs it has something more
            urgent/important on the family front to deal with - I'm awaiting a
            response the wargames figure company who are following it up for me,
            so you may need to wait awhile for a response from them.

            So all you need is spears! well get yourself some extra length dress
            makers pins and snip the end off and hey presto - steel spear/lance,
            won't bend, glues easily to the figure with super glue and is fine
            enough to look in scale. retail about 1 quid for 24 at a sewing shop
            near me, must be the same price (ish) elsewhere in the county. I use
            normal length pins to replicate javelins or sort spears and these are
            even more of a bargain. Can't remember where i read about these, but
            my days of straightening florists wire are well and truly over. - Oh
            yes! Dave Kuijts' POTN Numidian tipped me off. Cheers Dave.

            Want every DBA army - if you restrict this to the early feudal
            european armies its easily possible - all use the same core of kite
            shielded loonies -add some (usually) kite shielded spearmen, a mix of
            archers and possibly a few crossbow psiloi for continentals and then
            add the local flavour figures, usually only 1 or 2 bases. To give a
            bit of extra feel try changing the flags on your Generals element
            with each different army, don't glue them on, just make them slip on
            off, easy to make if you have access to a basic PC and the site below
            is invaluable for making flags (Its in French, but hey, we can't have
            everything laid on a plate for us can we!)

            http://www.heraldique-europeenne.org/Principal.htm

            Best of luck

            Paul.
          • Paul Ryan
            ... me, ... If the guy has other wories then that s fair enough. ... dress ... spear/lance, ... shop ... use ... are ... but ... Oh ... I ve managed to cut up
            Message 5 of 10 , Aug 6 8:12 AM
              --- In DBA@y..., p.crozier@t... wrote:
              >
              > Ah! I assume its Falcon UK - i have an order for various civilians
              > with them thats being outstanding for 2 months approx - i think i
              > read somwhere that the guy who runs it has something more
              > urgent/important on the family front to deal with - I'm awaiting a
              > response the wargames figure company who are following it up for
              me,
              > so you may need to wait awhile for a response from them.

              If the guy has other wories then that's fair enough.


              > So all you need is spears! well get yourself some extra length
              dress
              > makers pins and snip the end off and hey presto - steel
              spear/lance,
              > won't bend, glues easily to the figure with super glue and is fine
              > enough to look in scale. retail about 1 quid for 24 at a sewing
              shop
              > near me, must be the same price (ish) elsewhere in the county. I
              use
              > normal length pins to replicate javelins or sort spears and these
              are
              > even more of a bargain. Can't remember where i read about these,
              but
              > my days of straightening florists wire are well and truly over. -
              Oh
              > yes! Dave Kuijts' POTN Numidian tipped me off. Cheers Dave.

              I've managed to cut up some large paper clips that are doing quite
              niclry as spears so prolem solved.

              >
              > Want every DBA army - if you restrict this to the early feudal
              > european armies its easily possible - all use the same core of kite
              > shielded loonies -add some (usually) kite shielded spearmen, a mix
              of
              > archers and possibly a few crossbow psiloi for continentals and
              then
              > add the local flavour figures, usually only 1 or 2 bases. To give a
              > bit of extra feel try changing the flags on your Generals element
              > with each different army, don't glue them on, just make them slip
              on
              > off, easy to make if you have access to a basic PC and the site
              below
              > is invaluable for making flags (Its in French, but hey, we can't
              have
              > everything laid on a plate for us can we!)
              >
              > http://www.heraldique-europeenne.org/Principal.htm
              >

              I'm now trying to find any painting information. I know that
              chainmail is chainmail and horses are pretty standard but any
              info/pictures that you might be able to point me to would be a great
              help.

              Thanks
              Paul
            • John Hills
              On Mon, 06 Aug 2001 15:12:53 -0000 Paul Ryan ... And capable of causing horrible injuries too! I really must say that they are not a
              Message 6 of 10 , Aug 6 8:30 AM
                On Mon, 06 Aug 2001 15:12:53 -0000 Paul Ryan <Paul.UK.Ryan@...>
                wrote:

                > > So all you need is spears! well get yourself some extra length
                > dress
                > > makers pins and snip the end off and hey presto - steel
                > spear/lance,
                > > won't bend, glues easily to the figure with super glue and is fine
                > > enough to look in scale.

                And capable of causing horrible injuries too! I really must say that
                they are not a good idea if the spear is anywhere near upright. I have
                seen people's hands with multiple punctures and fingers impaled with
                the pin-spear stuck up under the fingernail. Not nice!

                John

                ----------------------
                John Hills
                j.r.hills@...
                http://freespace.virgin.net/johnr.hills/default.html

                "Overthrow Capitalism and replace it with something nicer!"
                Banner in London May Day protests, 1 May 2001.
              • Paul Ryan
                ... that ... have ... I ve actually gone for paperclip wire as it s a bit thicker and has no actual point. Painting the business end silver will do. I m
                Message 7 of 10 , Aug 6 11:39 PM
                  --- In DBA@y..., John Hills <j.r.hills@c...> wrote:

                  >
                  > And capable of causing horrible injuries too! I really must say
                  that
                  > they are not a good idea if the spear is anywhere near upright. I
                  have
                  > seen people's hands with multiple punctures and fingers impaled with
                  > the pin-spear stuck up under the fingernail. Not nice!
                  >
                  > John
                  >

                  I've actually gone for paperclip wire as it's a bit thicker and has no
                  actual point. Painting the 'business end' silver will do. I'm also
                  reasonably lucky that most of the knights have been sculpted with
                  spear horizontal. The few I have with upright spears will get a
                  slightly longer piece of metal with a banner on the end so as to make
                  it more visible. In my time I have trodden on figures that were being
                  used on the floor (to get that big battle effect!) and heard of a guy
                  who impailed himself on a battletech miniature because the camoflage
                  colour scheme was just too good and didn't notice it when he put his
                  hand down to lean over the table. I always assume that if something
                  stupid cane be done then I'll do it ;o)

                  Thanks for the concern though

                  Paul
                • p.crozier@tees.ac.uk
                  ... fine ... that ... have ... with ... Well, snip the point off aswell if its a problem, it only takes a second! I ve used copper wire, fuse wire,
                  Message 8 of 10 , Aug 7 12:45 AM
                    --- In DBA@y..., John Hills <j.r.hills@c...> wrote:
                    >
                    > On Mon, 06 Aug 2001 15:12:53 -0000 Paul Ryan <Paul.UK.Ryan@c...>
                    > wrote:
                    >
                    > > > So all you need is spears! well get yourself some extra length
                    > > dress
                    > > > makers pins and snip the end off and hey presto - steel
                    > > spear/lance,
                    > > > won't bend, glues easily to the figure with super glue and is
                    fine
                    > > > enough to look in scale.
                    >
                    > And capable of causing horrible injuries too! I really must say
                    that
                    > they are not a good idea if the spear is anywhere near upright. I
                    have
                    > seen people's hands with multiple punctures and fingers impaled
                    with
                    > the pin-spear stuck up under the fingernail. Not nice!
                    >
                    > John
                    >

                    Well, snip the point off aswell if its a problem, it only takes a
                    second! I've used copper wire, fuse wire, straightened paper clips
                    and florists wire, in that order. None are as good at making various
                    pointy sticks for 15mm as pins, with or without points!

                    Paul (keeps the points on!)
                  • p.crozier@tees.ac.uk
                    ... SNIP ... great ... Hi, there are quite a few ospreys on Normans, plus one on early med germans, feudal french , a couple on crusades, even el cid! all have
                    Message 9 of 10 , Aug 7 1:08 AM
                      --- In DBA@y..., "Paul Ryan" <Paul.UK.Ryan@c...> wrote:
                      SNIP
                      > I'm now trying to find any painting information. I know that
                      > chainmail is chainmail and horses are pretty standard but any
                      > info/pictures that you might be able to point me to would be a
                      great
                      > help.
                      >
                      > Thanks
                      > Paul

                      Hi, there are quite a few ospreys on Normans, plus one on early med
                      germans, feudal french , a couple on crusades, even el cid! all have
                      the usual colour plates and info inside. Check out at

                      http://fanaticus.jiffynet.net/DBA/bookstore/osprey.html

                      If you can get it , a copy of WRG Armies of Feudal Europe (2nd ed) is
                      invaluable for info on this period - its out of print at the minute
                      so you may need to try second hand dealers, but well worth whatever
                      it costs! Normans are in the sister volume, Armies of the Dark Ages,
                      and crusaders are in the volume Armies of the Crusades. All are by
                      Ian Heath and are the best sources for this period i've come across.

                      If your not looking to buy any books The armour should be dull and
                      just keep the cloth colours simple - use various dull browns of all
                      shades, some greens and greys. For the knights up the colours with
                      reds, yellows and blues, keep the tones dull except on the General.
                      Shields are the most visible so spend the most time on these, VVV do
                      Shield Transfers for essex normans, they might work! Otherwise its a
                      mix of simple patterns, i've no knowledge of heraldic terminology,
                      but halved and quartered shields are good, chevrons, diagnol stripes,
                      plus a whole whost of crosses aswell. A good idea is to check out
                      other peoples figs on the web, Alan Patricks site has some good
                      stuff, but there are others aswell.

                      http://www.btinternet.com/~a.patrick/wargames.htm

                      Best of luck - Paul.
                    • Paul.UK.Ryan@chase.com
                      Thanks again for the advice. The web site is cool and I ll look out for the books. Paul p.crozier@tees.ac.uk on 07/08/2001 09:08:26 Please respond to
                      Message 10 of 10 , Aug 7 1:59 AM
                        Thanks again for the advice. The web site is cool and I'll look out for
                        the books.

                        Paul





                        p.crozier@... on 07/08/2001 09:08:26

                        Please respond to DBA@yahoogroups.com



                        To: DBA@yahoogroups.com
                        cc:
                        Subject: [DBA] Re: Historical Norman Advice

                        --- In DBA@y..., "Paul Ryan" <Paul.UK.Ryan@c...> wrote:
                        SNIP
                        > I'm now trying to find any painting information. I know that
                        > chainmail is chainmail and horses are pretty standard but any
                        > info/pictures that you might be able to point me to would be a
                        great
                        > help.
                        >
                        > Thanks
                        > Paul

                        Hi, there are quite a few ospreys on Normans, plus one on early med
                        germans, feudal french , a couple on crusades, even el cid! all have
                        the usual colour plates and info inside. Check out at

                        http://fanaticus.jiffynet.net/DBA/bookstore/osprey.html

                        If you can get it , a copy of WRG Armies of Feudal Europe (2nd ed) is
                        invaluable for info on this period - its out of print at the minute
                        so you may need to try second hand dealers, but well worth whatever
                        it costs! Normans are in the sister volume, Armies of the Dark Ages,
                        and crusaders are in the volume Armies of the Crusades. All are by
                        Ian Heath and are the best sources for this period i've come across.

                        If your not looking to buy any books The armour should be dull and
                        just keep the cloth colours simple - use various dull browns of all
                        shades, some greens and greys. For the knights up the colours with
                        reds, yellows and blues, keep the tones dull except on the General.
                        Shields are the most visible so spend the most time on these, VVV do
                        Shield Transfers for essex normans, they might work! Otherwise its a
                        mix of simple patterns, i've no knowledge of heraldic terminology,
                        but halved and quartered shields are good, chevrons, diagnol stripes,
                        plus a whole whost of crosses aswell. A good idea is to check out
                        other peoples figs on the web, Alan Patricks site has some good
                        stuff, but there are others aswell.

                        http://www.btinternet.com/~a.patrick/wargames.htm

                        Best of luck - Paul.





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