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  • Robert Beattie
    --On Fri, Jun 1, 2001 4:59 PM -0700 william radetzky ... Hi As a student of the hobby as well as a player, I wonder if this is still
    Message 1 of 8 , Jun 3, 2001
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      --On Fri, Jun 1, 2001 4:59 PM -0700 william radetzky <5hussars@...>
      wrote:

      > Especially since the majority of miniature wargame rules used in America
      > are written in England.

      Hi
      As a student of the hobby as well as a player, I wonder if this is still
      true, if ever. It might well be that a majority of those who are playing
      use rules written in UK. This _seems_ true because of all the ancients
      players who have and are using Phil's rules, and now the influx of WAB.
      The impression of UK dominating the number of rules is underscored because
      of the two monthly mags of the hobby are from UK.

      Consider, however, the large number of US written rules for eras such as
      WW2 (Command Decision, Cross Fire), Napoleonic (Empire, Napoleon's
      Battles), American Civil War (Fire and Fury, On to Richmond, Johnny Reb,
      Brother Against Brother), 18th century (Warfare in the Age of Reason),
      Victorian Era Colonial (The Sword and the Flame, G.A.S.L.I.G.H.T, Soldier's
      Companion), Western Gunfight (Desperado). Also quite a few new rules sets
      from Old Glory. There are, of course, UK written rules for all of these
      eras too, but I seldom see them being played at US conventions. Perhaps we
      could do a count of what rules are used at Historicon as a test of your
      hypothesis? The PEL will soon be on line and that would serve as a source
      for the information.

      Do you have a list of those rules you consider to account for the majority
      of the rules used in America that are written in England, besides the DB*
      series?

      I was not considering the non-historical rules from GW even though these
      might be thougth of as within your term -- miniature wargame rules. They
      are, however, only a half-dozen specific rules, even thought a large
      number of players are using them. It is the number of rule sets that we
      are considering, not the number of players.

      Bob
      beattie@...
    • william radetzky
      ... Are these two still in print? Napoleonic (Empire, Napoleon s ... Is Empire still in print? Are there people still using that set of rules? Nappys Battles
      Message 2 of 8 , Jun 3, 2001
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        > Consider, however, the large number of US written rules for eras such as
        > WW2 (Command Decision, Cross Fire),

        Are these two still in print?

        Napoleonic (Empire, Napoleon's
        > Battles),

        Is Empire still in print? Are there people still using that set of rules?
        Nappys Battles does have an edge. But I was under the impression that nPOW
        was making huge strides in the USA on the Napoleonic front.

        American Civil War (Fire and Fury, On to Richmond, Johnny Reb,
        > Brother Against Brother),

        FnF big in USA and Uk. OTR haven't hear much about that one except maybe
        10-15 years ago. Johnny Reb has a good following in the USA. I am not up to
        speed on BaB, or Mr. Lincoln's War. And I think there are still pockets in
        the USA using Rally Round the Flag!

        18th century (Warfare in the Age of Reason),

        I still have a playtest version of this set! (now that makes me shudder that
        I am that old) And there still seems to be a huge following of Koenig Kreig
        in the USA. Is that one US or UK?

        > Victorian Era Colonial (The Sword and the Flame, G.A.S.L.I.G.H.T,
        Soldier's Companion),

        Yes to TSATF, don't know of GASLIGHT. Is Soldier's Companion from the Space
        1889 series? That is a fun one. What about the POW set? I hear it is gaining
        speed in the USA.

        Western Gunfight (Desperado).

        Yes there seems to be many of these Western Gunfight rules popping up ever
        year. And I believe all from the USA.

        Also quite a few new rules sets
        > from Old Glory. There are, of course, UK written rules for all of these
        > eras too, but I seldom see them being played at US conventions. Perhaps
        we
        > could do a count of what rules are used at Historicon as a test of your
        > hypothesis?

        Now that would be cool. Has it ever been done before? Great suggestion
        Robert.

        The PEL will soon be on line and that would serve as a source
        > for the information.

        What is PEL? Seems my head is still in the sand.

        >
        > Do you have a list of those rules you consider to account for the
        majority
        > of the rules used in America that are written in England, besides the DB*
        > series?
        >
        > I was not considering the non-historical rules from GW even though these
        > might be thougth of as within your term -- miniature wargame rules. They
        > are, however, only a half-dozen specific rules, even thought a large
        > number of players are using them. It is the number of rule sets that we
        > are considering, not the number of players.
        >
        Hey you are right here Robert. I might still be having flashbacks to the
        Seventies when it seemed like the only rules on the shelves were from the
        UK. And that just might be because the hobby store I went to only carried
        them.

        It just seems silly that there is a huge number of players in the USA using
        the DB* series of rules set and having loads of fun. If they were that
        poorly written and hard to understand by USA players, why are they still
        being used on such a widespread scale. My point was that we do enjoy using
        the DB* series of rules and we have to raise an eyebrow every now and then
        because of a comma or not. I am not bashing the rules sets, I enjoy them and
        I enjoy the fact that there are lists like these available nowadays to
        discuss some of the interpets. Back in our day, Robert, we would be writing
        letters and waiting weeks for answers to come back about the interpets. I
        appriecate this type of forum and look forward to seeing the rule set usage
        count from HistoriCon. I will not be there, but make be some others who are
        going could do the count.

        Well this went on for way too long, sorry about that :)

        wargamingly yours
        blake





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      • Jerboa
        De: william radetzky Blake ... to newer parts of the country and are looking for gamers, that they have a well rounded understanding of the rules. I understand
        Message 3 of 8 , Jun 5, 2001
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          De: william radetzky
          Blake
          >My main interest is that when these young games sprout wings and fly away
          to
          newer parts of the country and are looking for gamers, that they have a well
          rounded understanding of the rules. I understand fully that as close as
          across town, rules can be interperted differently and bog down a game if not
          discussed before hand. I try to give the different interps of the gray areas
          to the kids so they might be better prepared when out in the unprotected
          real world of wargaming. I hope that many of them will carry on our hobby
          late into their lives. The new bloods, that many of us are always talking
          about and asking for. :)


          Jerb:
          You are touching here 2 points of outmost interest.

          First, you are teaching children to play DBA, and by doing that you are
          providing the best possible service to the game - and by extension to their
          authors.

          Second, you are highlighting the main point of all of my interventions. That
          is the fact that DBA, as currently written, will give raise to thousands of
          local 'unique DBAs', making games between different groups difficult. You
          even state 'as close as across town' rules will be interpreted differently.
          How far we are from an universal international DBA.


          -------

          As an admirer of the DBA system, I think that to persuade others of the
          value of having a clear and flawless - as possible - set of rules, is worth
          our efforts.

          Sometimes I wonder if PB has realised the tremendous potential of the game
          he created. After only a few months of local work I've tought about 30
          people - all adults - how to play DBA and most now have armies for DBA,
          either painted for that purpose or adapted from DBM armies.
          This includes about 8 armies assembled by people new to 15mm and even
          absolute wargame begginers.

          This success is entirely due to the quality of the product, but not of it's
          presentation. Let this people alone with the rules and DBA in Lisbon will
          fade again into near oblivion.

          What we beg to WRG/PB is that they he listens to us - the public. I believe
          PB has in hands the power to divulgue DBA and the ancient wargaming hobby to
          an extent without precedents, all over the World.
          The concept is close to perfect. The product only needs proper production
          and packaging. And loads of professional, clear, good looking, top model I
          say, diagrams - just look at the good artwork done in the help files of
          DBAOL.

          Meanwhile I tell everyone: buy DBA 2.0. If the 3000 prints sell out we get a
          greater chance to see PB consider to release a next edition before the next
          5 years.

          Your's

          Jerboa


          PS: I have laughed to the tears on reading some recent posts, including a
          very short and smart remark by a most proficient authority on British sense
          of humour. Thanx for that. Fortunately none of the threads were of my
          responsability, or I would be only roasted remains by now, and again the
          culprit for having exausted all of those flamethrower tanks.
        • jblittlefield@email.com
          ... the value of having a clear and flawless - as possible - set of rules, is worth our efforts. As I see it, between Bob s and PB s replies and
          Message 4 of 8 , Jun 5, 2001
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            --- In DBA@y..., "Jerboa" <jerboa@m...> wrote:
            > As an admirer of the DBA system, I think that to persuade others of
            the value of having a clear and flawless - as possible - set of
            rules, is worth our efforts.

            As I see it, between Bob's and PB's replies and interpretations, the
            rules are pretty clear. I can't think of a single "questionable" area
            (as far as interpreting the rules) off the top of my head. It seems
            that the main points of contention in DBA 2 are: (1)BUAs and (2)LH QK
            vs Sp and Pk.


            > Sometimes I wonder if PB has realised the tremendous potential of
            the game he created.

            It's a game, and one of the most popular ancient sets out there. They
            sell copies and people play - what other potential is there?


            > This success is entirely due to the quality of the product, but not
            of it's presentation.

            Obviously presentation isn't that important to most people. Common
            sense and discussion of so-called problem areas "within the framework
            of the rules" usually yield positive results.


            > What we beg to WRG/PB is that they he listens to us - the public. I
            believe PB has in hands the power to divulgue DBA and the ancient
            wargaming hobby to an extent without precedents, all over the World.
            The concept is close to perfect. The product only needs proper
            production and packaging. And loads of professional, clear, good
            looking, top model I say, diagrams - just look at the good artwork
            done in the help files of DBAOL.

            At triple the price (at least) no doubt. I had to pay $15 for my copy
            here in the states. Sorry, but I can figure out the rules for that
            price. Increase the price and I'll find a more cost-effective means
            of gaming - Might of Arms springs to mind - @ $6.00 a copy for a well-
            written large-scale (with a small-scale variant and army lists) the
            choice is a no-brainer :)
            >

            > Meanwhile I tell everyone: buy DBA 2.0. If the 3000 prints sell out
            we get a greater chance to see PB consider to release a next edition
            before the next 5 years.

            Highly unlikely. 'Nuff said.

            Consider the following truths:

            1. DBA is a great ruleset with a poor presentation.
            2. PB is not going to change HIS game, nor should he.
            3. The rules are pretty clear at this stage in their release.

            The day DBA changes is the day it is sold off (like WRG 7th - Warrior)

            PS - BTW, I liked your study. It made me think and while I disagreed
            with most of it the effort was appreciated :)
          • Howard Whitehouse
            Whilst I agree with much of what you say, I think that the point about DBA serving as a tool to considerably enlarge the wunnerful world of wargaming - or, as
            Message 5 of 8 , Jun 5, 2001
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              Whilst I agree with much of what you say, I think that the point about DBA
              serving as a tool to considerably enlarge the wunnerful world of wargaming -
              or, as it appears, a missed opportunity to do so - is important. We must
              remember that historical wargaming remains a tiny, arguably stagnant,
              oddball hobby, and that much of the discussion we are having here is a
              symptom of that. In our little hobby maybe we can have rules that are
              unattractively packaged and unclearly written (as we can have felt scenery
              etc) but the rest of the world is unlikely to show any interest in joining
              us. I have put on many wargames of different types (including DBA) for
              groups of teenagers, who have generally enjoyed them a great deal. But,
              given the choice of buying a copy of Warhammer (ancients, fantasy or 40K),
              which has great pictures, easily-read text with lots of examples, and a
              supporting world of expensive-but-easily-available material, or DBA, there's
              no contest at all. Of course, you can say (correctly) that the giant
              corporation that produces these products is in a massively advantageous
              position over the cottage industry, but Warhammer Ancients is the product of
              a small, independent group of GW employees using their own money to make
              something that approaches GW standards of presentation. It isn't nearly as
              sophisticated a game as DBA, but, even without the GW distribution network
              to help it, stands a far better chance of reaching and appealing to
              potential gamers who are just never going to either buy the dull leaflet
              that is DBA, or get through the difficult text to the army lists that make
              no sense at all to a non-devotee (because "8x 4Bd" does not summon up the
              might of a Roman legion)
              I wish there were more wargamers. I wish we had more tools to recruit
              them. DBA can be used as such, right until you let someone read the rules.
              Which seems a shame. Howard
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: <jblittlefield@...>
              To: <DBA@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2001 12:17 PM
              Subject: [DBA] Re: A DBA study


              > --- In DBA@y..., "Jerboa" <jerboa@m...> wrote:
              > > As an admirer of the DBA system, I think that to persuade others of
              > the value of having a clear and flawless - as possible - set of
              > rules, is worth our efforts.
              >
              > As I see it, between Bob's and PB's replies and interpretations, the
              > rules are pretty clear. I can't think of a single "questionable" area
              > (as far as interpreting the rules) off the top of my head. It seems
              > that the main points of contention in DBA 2 are: (1)BUAs and (2)LH QK
              > vs Sp and Pk.
              >
              >
              > > Sometimes I wonder if PB has realised the tremendous potential of
              > the game he created.
              >
              > It's a game, and one of the most popular ancient sets out there. They
              > sell copies and people play - what other potential is there?
              >
              >
              > > This success is entirely due to the quality of the product, but not
              > of it's presentation.
              >
              > Obviously presentation isn't that important to most people. Common
              > sense and discussion of so-called problem areas "within the framework
              > of the rules" usually yield positive results.
              >
              >
              > > What we beg to WRG/PB is that they he listens to us - the public. I
              > believe PB has in hands the power to divulgue DBA and the ancient
              > wargaming hobby to an extent without precedents, all over the World.
              > The concept is close to perfect. The product only needs proper
              > production and packaging. And loads of professional, clear, good
              > looking, top model I say, diagrams - just look at the good artwork
              > done in the help files of DBAOL.
              >
              > At triple the price (at least) no doubt. I had to pay $15 for my copy
              > here in the states. Sorry, but I can figure out the rules for that
              > price. Increase the price and I'll find a more cost-effective means
              > of gaming - Might of Arms springs to mind - @ $6.00 a copy for a well-
              > written large-scale (with a small-scale variant and army lists) the
              > choice is a no-brainer :)
              > >
              >
              > > Meanwhile I tell everyone: buy DBA 2.0. If the 3000 prints sell out
              > we get a greater chance to see PB consider to release a next edition
              > before the next 5 years.
              >
              > Highly unlikely. 'Nuff said.
              >
              > Consider the following truths:
              >
              > 1. DBA is a great ruleset with a poor presentation.
              > 2. PB is not going to change HIS game, nor should he.
              > 3. The rules are pretty clear at this stage in their release.
              >
              > The day DBA changes is the day it is sold off (like WRG 7th - Warrior)
              >
              > PS - BTW, I liked your study. It made me think and while I disagreed
              > with most of it the effort was appreciated :)
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
              >
            • Luis Filipe Gomes
              Agreed, very good post as usual. Package is very important; just look at Coke, the formula is copyable; the bottle is not. Just imagine if you could buy a
              Message 6 of 8 , Jun 5, 2001
              • 0 Attachment
                Agreed, very good post as usual. Package is very important; just look at
                Coke, the formula is copyable; the bottle is not. Just imagine if you could
                buy a boxed DBA set with a board, some basic terrain, Marian Roman vs.
                Ancient British ready to use plastic armys and of course clear, fast
                learning rules. Then you could buy some expansian boxes with pairs of armys
                or more complex terrain. Would you buy Risk?

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Howard Whitehouse [mailto:HowardW@...]
                Sent: terça-feira, 5 de Junho de 2001 18:08
                To: DBA@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [DBA] Re: A DBA study


                Whilst I agree with much of what you say, I think that the point about DBA
                serving as a tool to considerably enlarge the wunnerful world of wargaming -
                or, as it appears, a missed opportunity to do so - is important. We must
                remember that historical wargaming remains a tiny, arguably stagnant,
                oddball hobby, and that much of the discussion we are having here is a
                symptom of that. In our little hobby maybe we can have rules that are
                unattractively packaged and unclearly written (as we can have felt scenery
                etc) but the rest of the world is unlikely to show any interest in joining
                us. I have put on many wargames of different types (including DBA) for
                groups of teenagers, who have generally enjoyed them a great deal. But,
                given the choice of buying a copy of Warhammer (ancients, fantasy or 40K),
                which has great pictures, easily-read text with lots of examples, and a
                supporting world of expensive-but-easily-available material, or DBA, there's
                no contest at all. Of course, you can say (correctly) that the giant
                corporation that produces these products is in a massively advantageous
                position over the cottage industry, but Warhammer Ancients is the product of
                a small, independent group of GW employees using their own money to make
                something that approaches GW standards of presentation. It isn't nearly as
                sophisticated a game as DBA, but, even without the GW distribution network
                to help it, stands a far better chance of reaching and appealing to
                potential gamers who are just never going to either buy the dull leaflet
                that is DBA, or get through the difficult text to the army lists that make
                no sense at all to a non-devotee (because "8x 4Bd" does not summon up the
                might of a Roman legion)
                I wish there were more wargamers. I wish we had more tools to recruit
                them. DBA can be used as such, right until you let someone read the rules.
                Which seems a shame. Howard
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: <jblittlefield@...>
                To: <DBA@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2001 12:17 PM
                Subject: [DBA] Re: A DBA study


                > --- In DBA@y..., "Jerboa" <jerboa@m...> wrote:
                > > As an admirer of the DBA system, I think that to persuade others of
                > the value of having a clear and flawless - as possible - set of
                > rules, is worth our efforts.
                >
                > As I see it, between Bob's and PB's replies and interpretations, the
                > rules are pretty clear. I can't think of a single "questionable" area
                > (as far as interpreting the rules) off the top of my head. It seems
                > that the main points of contention in DBA 2 are: (1)BUAs and (2)LH QK
                > vs Sp and Pk.
                >
                >
                > > Sometimes I wonder if PB has realised the tremendous potential of
                > the game he created.
                >
                > It's a game, and one of the most popular ancient sets out there. They
                > sell copies and people play - what other potential is there?
                >
                >
                > > This success is entirely due to the quality of the product, but not
                > of it's presentation.
                >
                > Obviously presentation isn't that important to most people. Common
                > sense and discussion of so-called problem areas "within the framework
                > of the rules" usually yield positive results.
                >
                >
                > > What we beg to WRG/PB is that they he listens to us - the public. I
                > believe PB has in hands the power to divulgue DBA and the ancient
                > wargaming hobby to an extent without precedents, all over the World.
                > The concept is close to perfect. The product only needs proper
                > production and packaging. And loads of professional, clear, good
                > looking, top model I say, diagrams - just look at the good artwork
                > done in the help files of DBAOL.
                >
                > At triple the price (at least) no doubt. I had to pay $15 for my copy
                > here in the states. Sorry, but I can figure out the rules for that
                > price. Increase the price and I'll find a more cost-effective means
                > of gaming - Might of Arms springs to mind - @ $6.00 a copy for a well-
                > written large-scale (with a small-scale variant and army lists) the
                > choice is a no-brainer :)
                > >
                >
                > > Meanwhile I tell everyone: buy DBA 2.0. If the 3000 prints sell out
                > we get a greater chance to see PB consider to release a next edition
                > before the next 5 years.
                >
                > Highly unlikely. 'Nuff said.
                >
                > Consider the following truths:
                >
                > 1. DBA is a great ruleset with a poor presentation.
                > 2. PB is not going to change HIS game, nor should he.
                > 3. The rules are pretty clear at this stage in their release.
                >
                > The day DBA changes is the day it is sold off (like WRG 7th - Warrior)
                >
                > PS - BTW, I liked your study. It made me think and while I disagreed
                > with most of it the effort was appreciated :)
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
                >




                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              • Michael Demana
                ... I m with you 100%, Howard. Of course, WRG is not in the business to recruit gamers to historical miniatures. They are in the business to sell their rules
                Message 7 of 8 , Jun 5, 2001
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                  on 6/5/01 1:08 PM, Howard Whitehouse at HowardW@... wrote:

                  > But,
                  > given the choice of buying a copy of Warhammer (ancients, fantasy or 40K),
                  > which has great pictures, easily-read text with lots of examples, and a
                  > supporting world of expensive-but-easily-available material, or DBA, there's
                  > no contest at all.

                  I'm with you 100%, Howard. Of course, WRG is not in the business to recruit
                  gamers to historical miniatures. They are in the business to sell their
                  rules to an established market. GW seems to take a different approach --
                  they want to attract those outside of the fantasy/scifi minis crowd and
                  "recruit" them. Two different philosophies.

                  > I wish there were more wargamers. I wish we had more tools to recruit
                  > them. DBA can be used as such, right until you let someone read the rules.
                  > Which seems a shame. Howard

                  I feel recruiting is an extremely important part of our hobby, also. DBA IS
                  a good recruiting tool, but it is one that asks someone else to step
                  forward, run games, and most importantly, explain it to the newbies.
                  Sitting on the shelf, it does not in itself recruit. Too bad, though. I
                  think that colorful, boxed set idea of yours (with clearly written rules)
                  could be a good tool.

                  Seeya!
                  -- Mike Demana
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