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Beyond?

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  • Terry Griner
    Let s say I have a general element that is mostly in a BUA but with its front edge sticking out into the open a few mm from the BUA edge facing the enemy. I
    Message 1 of 9 , May 18, 2017

      Let’s say I have a general element that is mostly in a BUA but with its front edge sticking out into the open a few mm from the BUA edge facing the enemy.  I believe this eliminates any extra PIPs required of an element if its general is, “entirely in a BUA”.

       

      But let’s say there is a Bd element 6 BW behind the BUA and located so there is no way a line can be drawn between it and the general’s element without passing through the BUA.

       

      The rule says command distance, “is reduced to 4 BW for troops....beyond a BUA...”  Since the general’s element is partly in the BUA, does this Bd still qualify as being beyond a BUA from the general?  

       

      Terry in Spokane

       

    • Chuck
      Terry Is the question: When is a BUA not a BUA? Is this BUA base smaller than the base of your General whom you have partially placed inside it? Isn t a unit
      Message 2 of 9 , May 18, 2017
        Terry
        Is the question: When is a BUA not a BUA? 
        Is this BUA base smaller than the base of your General whom you have partially placed inside it?  
        Isn't a unit either inside or outside a BUA? 

           
        Chuck
        chuckgame2@...


        -----Original Message-----
        From: 'Terry Griner' TGRINER@... [DBA] <DBA@yahoogroups.com>
        To: DBA <DBA@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Thu, May 18, 2017 4:03 pm
        Subject: [DBA] Beyond?

         
        Let’s say I have a general element that is mostly in a BUA but with its front edge sticking out into the open a few mm from the BUA edge facing the enemy.  I believe this eliminates any extra PIPs required of an element if its general is, “entirely in a BUA”.
         
        But let’s say there is a Bd element 6 BW behind the BUA and located so there is no way a line can be drawn between it and the general’s element without passing through the BUA.
         
        The rule says command distance, “is reduced to 4 BW for troops....beyond a BUA...”  Since the general’s element i s partly in the BUA, does this Bd still qualify as being beyond a BUA from the general?  
         
        Terry in Spokane
         
      • Terry Griner
        The text says “entirely within a BUA, camp, Wood, Oasis, Marsh of Gully”. Here we interpolate this to mean a general’s element can be partly in and
        Message 3 of 9 , May 19, 2017
          The text says “entirely within a BUA, camp, Wood, Oasis, Marsh of Gully”. Here we interpolate this to mean a general’s element can be partly in and partly out of a BUA and can exert a normal command range as long as it is measured from the part of the element that is not in the BUA. However, I could see someone arguing that since the general is not “entirely” in the BUA, full 8 BW command range could also be measured from the part of his element that is in the BUA.



          Another way a person could interpret the text mentioned above is to say an element can only be all in or all out of a BUA or camp and the “entirely” part really refers only to Wood, Oasis, Marsh or Gully. However, while the concept of being either all in or all out of a City or Fort makes perfect sense, it becomes a bit cloudy if the BUA is a hamlet or edifice as it is easier to imagine a body of troops being partly in and partly out of such BUA’s.



          IF an element must either be all in or all out of a BUA then things get simpler. +1 PIP if the general’s element is in a BUA or +1 PIP if the BUA is entirely between the general and the moving element in question.





          So:



          1. Can an element be partly in and partly out of a BUA or must it be all in or all out?



          2. If partly in/out how is full 8 BW command distance measured?



          3. If partly in/out how is “+1 PIP if beyond a BUA” from the general determined?





          Terry in Spokane



          From: DBA@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DBA@yahoogroups.com]
          Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2017 7:21 PM
          To: DBA@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [DBA] Beyond?





          Terry

          Is the question: When is a BUA not a BUA?

          Is this BUA base smaller than the base of your General whom you have partially placed inside it?

          Isn't a unit either inside or outside a BUA?





          Chuck
          chuckgame2@...



          -----Original Message-----
          From: 'Terry Griner' TGRINER@... [DBA] <DBA@yahoogroups.com>
          To: DBA <DBA@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Thu, May 18, 2017 4:03 pm
          Subject: [DBA] Beyond?



          Let’s say I have a general element that is mostly in a BUA but with its front edge sticking out into the open a few mm from the BUA edge facing the enemy. I believe this eliminates any extra PIPs required of an element if its general is, “entirely in a BUA”.



          But let’s say there is a Bd element 6 BW behind the BUA and located so there is no way a line can be drawn between it and the general’s element without passing through the BUA.



          The rule says command distance, “is reduced to 4 BW for troops....beyond a BUA...” Since the general’s element i s partly in the BUA, does this Bd still qualify as being beyond a BUA from the general?



          Terry in Spokane







          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • duxsimon
          I wonder if the type of BUA makes a difference? You are either in or out of a city/fort - . thereafter any single foot element (except war wagons) can move
          Message 4 of 9 , May 19, 2017
            I wonder if the type of BUA makes a difference?

            You are either in or out of a city/fort - ."thereafter any single foot element (except war wagons) can move completely within an undefended city or fort..." P7, first paragraph.

            On the other hand, hamlets "function only as ROUGH GOING." and edifices are "treated only as BAD GOING, except when it is used as a CAMP."    Do they actually count as BUA for the purpose of the general being in a BUA?

            Regards

            Simon
          • beattieumichedu
            Simon, you left off the operative clause in that first sentence Thereafter, any single foot element (except War Wagons) can move completely within an
            Message 5 of 9 , May 19, 2017
              Simon, you left off the operative clause in that first sentence
              "Thereafter, any single foot element (except War Wagons) can move completely within an undefended city or fort and then garrison it. "

               An element must move completely within the undefended City or fort in order to Garrison it.

               So we know that Terry's general it's not garrisoning the BUA if it is a city or a fort. 
               
               Phil once made a comment that a general inside of a hamlet would have difficulty giving commands outside of it. If an edifice could serve as a camp then it must have the same restrictions as a camp on the generals command radius.
            • duxsimon
              Thanks - my point was that there can only be one element within a city or fort (ie to garrison it) and it must be entirely within it. If an edifice is a camp
              Message 6 of 9 , May 19, 2017
                Thanks - my point was that there can only be one element within a city or fort (ie to garrison it) and it must be entirely within it.

                If an edifice is a camp then I guess any single unit must also entirely be within it to defend it.

                Can an element be partly in and partly out of hamlet or non-camp edifice and so count as being within it as per usual area terrain rules?

                I guess it would make sense for a hamlet to hamper command but it is designated as rough ground and other rough ground does not do so?

                Regards

                Simon
              • Terry Griner
                Simon, We play an element can not be partly in and partly out of a camp, city or fort because (as you say) it is just logical. Although I would love to see
                Message 7 of 9 , May 19, 2017
                  Simon,



                  We play an element can not be partly in and partly out of a camp, city or fort because (as you say) it is just logical. Although I would love to see rules text that confirms this.



                  The original question occurred because a general’s element was passing through a hamlet and had partly emerged from the far (closest to the enemy) side during its bound. Friendly elements were on the other side of the hamlet and more than 4BW away from their general.



                  Are they considered “beyond” a BUA from their general if he is partly within it?



                  Does such a general element get to measure normal 8 BW command range from any part of its stand or only the part that is sticking out of the hamlet? We play the latter.



                  Terry in Spokane



                  From: DBA@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DBA@yahoogroups.com]
                  Sent: Friday, May 19, 2017 10:56 AM
                  To: DBA@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [DBA] Re: Beyond?





                  Thanks - my point was that there can only be one element within a city or fort (ie to garrison it) and it must be entirely within it.



                  Regards



                  Simon





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • lkmjbc3
                  Yes, they are still beyond the BUA from the General. They are out of command. Joe Collins
                  Message 8 of 9 , May 19, 2017
                    Yes, they are still beyond the BUA from the General.  They are out of command.

                    Joe Collins
                  • Robert Beattie
                    Phil wrote that a Hamlet is an area with houses and other structures that impede vision and communication, whereas a bit of rocky, or boggy or scrubby or wet
                    Message 9 of 9 , May 19, 2017
                      Phil wrote that a Hamlet is an area with houses and other structures that impede vision and communication, whereas a bit of rocky, or boggy or scrubby or wet plough ground does not hamper vision and communication.  Thus, the Hamlet (along with other BUA) has an explicit special designation to hamper command and control.  When he wrote the rule, some developers asked him if he had forgotten to change the BUA text given the division of these into 4 types.  Did he mean just cities or forts.  He replied no, he wrote what he meant, and meant what he wrote.

                      Bob

                      Robert Beattie








                      On May 19, 2017, at 1:56 PM, simoncwilson@... [DBA] <DBA@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                      Thanks - my point was that there can only be one element within a city or fort (ie to garrison it) and it must be entirely within it.


                      If an edifice is a camp then I guess any single unit must also entirely be within it to defend it.

                      Can an element be partly in and partly out of hamlet or non-camp edifice and so count as being within it as per usual area terrain rules?

                      I guess it would make sense for a hamlet to hamper command but it is designated as rough ground and other rough ground does not do so?

                      Regards

                      Simon


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