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Re: Style and content

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  • a_marmier
    ... No surprise, the self-imposed constraints are too stringent and unreasonable. Still I can point the following out: - meet is a verb with many meaning.
    Message 1 of 25 , Nov 30, 2012
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      --- In DBA@yahoogroups.com, "Phil Barker" <pc.barker@...> wrote:
      >
      > My suggestion last week that players complaining about language should specify specific bits they cannot understand and suggest wording changes has so far produced no results.

      No surprise, the self-imposed constraints are too stringent and unreasonable.

      Still I can point the following out:

      - "meet" is a verb with many meaning. None of these cover the use you make of it. Either you define it (as per "within", another term with a precise topological meaning in DBA), or you use another expression.

      - Illustrations (Tables, Figures) should be numbered, captionned and refered to from the text.

      Have fun,
      Arnaud

      PS: a very good book on technical writing is "The Craft of Scientific Writing", by Michael Alley.

      Some good resources there:
      http://www.writing.engr.psu.edu/csw.html
    • Timurilank@aol.com
      Hello Phil, Please, do not overlook the Netherlands. Do pass on our felicitations to Sue on her birthday. Cheers, Robert Madrigal
      Message 2 of 25 , Nov 30, 2012
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        Hello Phil,

        Please, do not overlook the Netherlands.

        Do pass on our felicitations to Sue on her birthday.
        Cheers,

        Robert Madrigal

        --- In DBA@yahoogroups.com, "Phil Barker" <pc.barker@...> wrote:
        >
        > My suggestion last week that players complaining about language should specify specific bits they cannot understand and suggest wording changes has so far produced no results. The group of 30 are not so shy and have been working hard to produce ever more minor nitpicks; and Sue is at this moment posting a new PDF, even though she should be celebrating her birthday and relaxing.
        >
        > I always find it interesting that the general complaints largely come from the eastern part of the USA. Players in Italy, France, Germany, Scandinavia and the Republic of Ireland do not seem to have trouble.
        >
        > Phil
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • rich
        Not very surprising that most of the comments are coming from the group of 30. To know whether something is unclear and especially to write a clearer rule you
        Message 3 of 25 , Nov 30, 2012
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          Not very surprising that most of the comments are coming from the group of 30. To know whether something is unclear and especially to write a clearer rule you would have to know what the intent of the rule is in the first place....

          Rich Gause


          --- In DBA@yahoogroups.com, "Phil Barker" <pc.barker@...> wrote:
          >
          > My suggestion last week that players complaining about language should specify specific bits they cannot understand and suggest wording changes has so far produced no results. The group of 30 are not so shy and have been working hard to produce ever more minor nitpicks; and Sue is at this moment posting a new PDF, even though she should be celebrating her birthday and relaxing.
          >
          > I always find it interesting that the general complaints largely come from the eastern part of the USA. Players in Italy, France, Germany, Scandinavia and the Republic of Ireland do not seem to have trouble.
          >
          > Phil
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • John Hills
          Indeed!  Many happy returns!  I hope you are having a grand day!   Meanwhile I am planning an evening of DBA.   John H ________________________________
          Message 4 of 25 , Nov 30, 2012
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            Indeed!  Many happy returns!  I hope you are having a grand day!
             
            Meanwhile I am planning an evening of DBA.
             
            John H


            ________________________________
            From: "Timurilank@..." <Timurilank@...>
            To: DBA@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Friday, 30 November 2012, 14:07
            Subject: [DBA] Re: Style and content


             

            Hello Phil,

            Please, do not overlook the Netherlands.

            Do pass on our felicitations to Sue on her birthday.
            Cheers,

            Robert Madrigal

            --- In mailto:DBA%40yahoogroups.com, "Phil Barker" <pc.barker@...> wrote:
            >
            > My suggestion last week that players complaining about language should specify specific bits they cannot understand and suggest wording changes has so far produced no results. The group of 30 are not so shy and have been working hard to produce ever more minor nitpicks; and Sue is at this moment posting a new PDF, even though she should be celebrating her birthday and relaxing.
            >
            > I always find it interesting that the general complaints largely come from the eastern part of the USA. Players in Italy, France, Germany, Scandinavia and the Republic of Ireland do not seem to have trouble.
            >
            > Phil
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Robert Beattie
            Most of the eastern US is converted to the WADBAG initiated rules, so no complaints from them. In the group of 30, the complaints come mostly from UK,
            Message 5 of 25 , Nov 30, 2012
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              Most of the eastern US is converted to the WADBAG initiated rules, so no complaints from them. In the group of 30, the complaints come mostly from UK, Australia, NZ, and Sweden, and a few from midwest USA.
              Bob




              On Nov 30, 2012, at 5:39 AM, Phil Barker wrote:

              > My suggestion last week that players complaining about language should specify specific bits they cannot understand and suggest wording changes has so far produced no results. The group of 30 are not so shy and have been working hard to produce ever more minor nitpicks; and Sue is at this moment posting a new PDF, even though she should be celebrating her birthday and relaxing.
              >
              > I always find it interesting that the general complaints largely come from the eastern part of the USA. Players in Italy, France, Germany, Scandinavia and the Republic of Ireland do not seem to have trouble.
              >
              > Phil
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Robert Beattie
              Rich, please do not think that the Helpers (also known as Nit Pickers) ever know the intent of a rule. One in a very infrequent while, Phil tells what he is
              Message 6 of 25 , Nov 30, 2012
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                Rich, please do not think that the Helpers (also known as Nit Pickers) ever know the intent of a rule. One in a very infrequent while, Phil tells what he is getting at. Mostly we just see the rules, as shown on Yahoo and are told to have a go.
                Bob




                On Nov 30, 2012, at 9:49 AM, rich wrote:

                > Not very surprising that most of the comments are coming from the group of 30. To know whether something is unclear and especially to write a clearer rule you would have to know what the intent of the rule is in the first place....
                >
                > Rich Gause
                >
                > --- In DBA@yahoogroups.com, "Phil Barker" <pc.barker@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > My suggestion last week that players complaining about language should specify specific bits they cannot understand and suggest wording changes has so far produced no results. The group of 30 are not so shy and have been working hard to produce ever more minor nitpicks; and Sue is at this moment posting a new PDF, even though she should be celebrating her birthday and relaxing.
                > >
                > > I always find it interesting that the general complaints largely come from the eastern part of the USA. Players in Italy, France, Germany, Scandinavia and the Republic of Ireland do not seem to have trouble.
                > >
                > > Phil
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                >
                >



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Dale Hurtt
                Ah! We have spotted the problem: you do not read very closely! Phil indicated largely come from , not all come from . ;^) Dale
                Message 7 of 25 , Nov 30, 2012
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                  Ah! We have spotted the problem: you do not read very closely! Phil indicated "largely come from", not "all come from".

                  ;^)

                  Dale

                  > --- In DBA@yahoogroups.com, "Martyn" <martynmiddlewick@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > I refer the honourable gentleman to my post 37310 of 29th November.
                  >
                  > As much as we in the Celtic SW object to being part of England it is pushing the
                  > bounds of incredulity to suggest that we are part of the USA.
                  >
                  >
                  > > --- In DBA@yahoogroups.com, "Phil Barker" <pc.barker@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > I always find it interesting that the general complaints largely come from the
                  > > eastern part of the USA. Players in Italy, France, Germany, Scandinavia and the
                  > > Republic of Ireland do not seem to have trouble.
                  > >
                  > > Phil
                • David Schlanger
                  How do players effectively play test rules and provide quality feedback when there is a lack of knowledge regarding the intent of the rules and how to actually
                  Message 8 of 25 , Nov 30, 2012
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                    How do players effectively play test rules and provide quality feedback when there is a lack of knowledge regarding the intent of the rules and how to actually play the rules as written?

                    DS


                    >>> Robert Beattie <beattie@...> 11/30/2012 10:32 AM >>>
                    Rich, please do not think that the Helpers (also known as Nit Pickers) ever know the intent of a rule. One in a very infrequent while, Phil tells what he is getting at. Mostly we just see the rules, as shown on Yahoo and are told to have a go.
                    Bob




                    On Nov 30, 2012, at 9:49 AM, rich wrote:

                    > Not very surprising that most of the comments are coming from the group of 30. To know whether something is unclear and especially to write a clearer rule you would have to know what the intent of the rule is in the first place....
                    >
                    > Rich Gause
                    >
                    > --- In DBA@yahoogroups.com, "Phil Barker" <pc.barker@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > My suggestion last week that players complaining about language should specify specific bits they cannot understand and suggest wording changes has so far produced no results. The group of 30 are not so shy and have been working hard to produce ever more minor nitpicks; and Sue is at this moment posting a new PDF, even though she should be celebrating her birthday and relaxing.
                    > >
                    > > I always find it interesting that the general complaints largely come from the eastern part of the USA. Players in Italy, France, Germany, Scandinavia and the Republic of Ireland do not seem to have trouble.
                    > >
                    > > Phil
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    >
                    >



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                    ------------------------------------

                    Yahoo! Groups Links





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Robert Beattie
                    I don t think Phil considers it necessary to tell reviewers what his intent is. He doesn t say what he wants to have happen, nor does he say what outcomes
                    Message 9 of 25 , Nov 30, 2012
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                      I don't think Phil considers it necessary to tell reviewers what his intent is. He doesn't say what he wants to have happen, nor does he say what outcomes should be expected. He just gives you the rule-- do this and that. And if it works fine. This is why he does not include examples of rules Should play out in the text. It would make them clearer but he thinks more text ads to confusion.

                      Very few times in the review process, at least that I can recall, he has said that he wants a certain effect to happen. He will often give a historical example to the reviewers in a message exchange, but never in the text itself.

                      In this debate over edge sitting, I've never understood his intentions. Is it to stop cavalry from moving around the edge being stopped by foot. Why is that a problem? I just don't know. we just get various rules that impact the course of the game.

                      I have tried not to worry too much about what the rule is supposed to do, I have only tried to make sure that I could understand it, and that perhaps most others could too.

                      Bob
                      Dictated and sent from my iPad Which (explains Spelling errors and weird grammar!)

                      On Nov 30, 2012, at 1:36 PM, David Schlanger <david.schlanger@...> wrote:

                      > How do players effectively play test rules and provide quality feedback when there is a lack of knowledge regarding the intent of the rules and how to actually play the rules as written?
                      >
                      > DS
                      >
                      > >>> Robert Beattie <beattie@...> 11/30/2012 10:32 AM >>>
                      > Rich, please do not think that the Helpers (also known as Nit Pickers) ever know the intent of a rule. One in a very infrequent while, Phil tells what he is getting at. Mostly we just see the rules, as shown on Yahoo and are told to have a go.
                      > Bob
                      >
                      > On Nov 30, 2012, at 9:49 AM, rich wrote:
                      >
                      > > Not very surprising that most of the comments are coming from the group of 30. To know whether something is unclear and especially to write a clearer rule you would have to know what the intent of the rule is in the first place....
                      > >
                      > > Rich Gause
                      > >
                      > > --- In DBA@yahoogroups.com, "Phil Barker" <pc.barker@...> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > My suggestion last week that players complaining about language should specify specific bits they cannot understand and suggest wording changes has so far produced no results. The group of 30 are not so shy and have been working hard to produce ever more minor nitpicks; and Sue is at this moment posting a new PDF, even though she should be celebrating her birthday and relaxing.
                      > > >
                      > > > I always find it interesting that the general complaints largely come from the eastern part of the USA. Players in Italy, France, Germany, Scandinavia and the Republic of Ireland do not seem to have trouble.
                      > > >
                      > > > Phil
                      > > >
                      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • David Schlanger
                      I agree that he says he doesn t consider it necessary. I agree that he doesn t say what he wants to have happen. I agree he doesn t say what outcomes should
                      Message 10 of 25 , Nov 30, 2012
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                        I agree that he says he doesn't consider it necessary. I agree that he doesn't say what he wants to have happen. I agree he doesn't say what outcomes should be expected.
                        Unfortunately, I don't agree that it works fine.

                        DS

                        >>> Robert Beattie <beattie@...> 11/30/2012 2:13 PM >>>
                        I don't think Phil considers it necessary to tell reviewers what his intent is. He doesn't say what he wants to have happen, nor does he say what outcomes should be expected. He just gives you the rule-- do this and that. And if it works fine. This is why he does not include examples of rules Should play out in the text. It would make them clearer but he thinks more text ads to confusion.

                        Very few times in the review process, at least that I can recall, he has said that he wants a certain effect to happen. He will often give a historical example to the reviewers in a message exchange, but never in the text itself.

                        In this debate over edge sitting, I've never understood his intentions. Is it to stop cavalry from moving around the edge being stopped by foot. Why is that a problem? I just don't know. we just get various rules that impact the course of the game.

                        I have tried not to worry too much about what the rule is supposed to do, I have only tried to make sure that I could understand it, and that perhaps most others could too.

                        Bob
                        Dictated and sent from my iPad Which (explains Spelling errors and weird grammar!)

                        On Nov 30, 2012, at 1:36 PM, David Schlanger <david.schlanger@...> wrote:

                        > How do players effectively play test rules and provide quality feedback when there is a lack of knowledge regarding the intent of the rules and how to actually play the rules as written?
                        >
                        > DS
                        >
                        > >>> Robert Beattie <beattie@...> 11/30/2012 10:32 AM >>>
                        > Rich, please do not think that the Helpers (also known as Nit Pickers) ever know the intent of a rule. One in a very infrequent while, Phil tells what he is getting at. Mostly we just see the rules, as shown on Yahoo and are told to have a go.
                        > Bob
                        >
                        > On Nov 30, 2012, at 9:49 AM, rich wrote:
                        >
                        > > Not very surprising that most of the comments are coming from the group of 30. To know whether something is unclear and especially to write a clearer rule you would have to know what the intent of the rule is in the first place....
                        > >
                        > > Rich Gause
                        > >
                        > > --- In DBA@yahoogroups.com, "Phil Barker" <pc.barker@...> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > My suggestion last week that players complaining about language should specify specific bits they cannot understand and suggest wording changes has so far produced no results. The group of 30 are not so shy and have been working hard to produce ever more minor nitpicks; and Sue is at this moment posting a new PDF, even though she should be celebrating her birthday and relaxing.
                        > > >
                        > > > I always find it interesting that the general complaints largely come from the eastern part of the USA. Players in Italy, France, Germany, Scandinavia and the Republic of Ireland do not seem to have trouble.
                        > > >
                        > > > Phil
                        > > >
                        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                        ------------------------------------

                        Yahoo! Groups Links





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • rich
                        When writing a set of wargames rules with a big(30) group of people involved wouldn t the first step be to decide what you want to happen ie the intent of the
                        Message 11 of 25 , Nov 30, 2012
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                          When writing a set of wargames rules with a big(30) group of people involved wouldn't the first step be to decide what you want to happen ie the intent of the rules before you start writing rules to make the intent happen?????????? Or would you just write rules willy nilly and let the intent fall where it may?

                          Rich Gause


                          --- In DBA@yahoogroups.com, Robert Beattie <beattie@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I don't think Phil considers it necessary to tell reviewers what his intent is. He doesn't say what he wants to have happen, nor does he say what outcomes should be expected. He just gives you the rule-- do this and that. And if it works fine. This is why he does not include examples of rules Should play out in the text. It would make them clearer but he thinks more text ads to confusion.
                          >
                          > Very few times in the review process, at least that I can recall, he has said that he wants a certain effect to happen. He will often give a historical example to the reviewers in a message exchange, but never in the text itself.
                          >
                          > In this debate over edge sitting, I've never understood his intentions. Is it to stop cavalry from moving around the edge being stopped by foot. Why is that a problem? I just don't know. we just get various rules that impact the course of the game.
                          >
                          > I have tried not to worry too much about what the rule is supposed to do, I have only tried to make sure that I could understand it, and that perhaps most others could too.
                          >
                          > Bob
                          > Dictated and sent from my iPad Which (explains Spelling errors and weird grammar!)
                          >
                          > On Nov 30, 2012, at 1:36 PM, David Schlanger <david.schlanger@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > > How do players effectively play test rules and provide quality feedback when there is a lack of knowledge regarding the intent of the rules and how to actually play the rules as written?
                          > >
                          > > DS
                          > >
                          > > >>> Robert Beattie <beattie@...> 11/30/2012 10:32 AM >>>
                          > > Rich, please do not think that the Helpers (also known as Nit Pickers) ever know the intent of a rule. One in a very infrequent while, Phil tells what he is getting at. Mostly we just see the rules, as shown on Yahoo and are told to have a go.
                          > > Bob
                          > >
                          > > On Nov 30, 2012, at 9:49 AM, rich wrote:
                          > >
                          > > > Not very surprising that most of the comments are coming from the group of 30. To know whether something is unclear and especially to write a clearer rule you would have to know what the intent of the rule is in the first place....
                          > > >
                          > > > Rich Gause
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In DBA@yahoogroups.com, "Phil Barker" <pc.barker@> wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > My suggestion last week that players complaining about language should specify specific bits they cannot understand and suggest wording changes has so far produced no results. The group of 30 are not so shy and have been working hard to produce ever more minor nitpicks; and Sue is at this moment posting a new PDF, even though she should be celebrating her birthday and relaxing.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > I always find it interesting that the general complaints largely come from the eastern part of the USA. Players in Italy, France, Germany, Scandinavia and the Republic of Ireland do not seem to have trouble.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Phil
                          > > > >
                          > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >
                          > > ------------------------------------
                          > >
                          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          > >
                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                        • arkas01
                          As a player from Germany, I don t know anyone here playing 3.0. Most are fine with 2.2 and this version has a wonderful guide, so I have no need to complain.
                          Message 12 of 25 , Dec 1, 2012
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                            As a player from Germany, I don't know anyone here playing 3.0. Most are fine with 2.2 and this version has a wonderful guide, so I have no need to complain.

                            Thomas


                            --- In DBA@yahoogroups.com, "Phil Barker" <pc.barker@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > My suggestion last week that players complaining about language should specify specific bits they cannot understand and suggest wording changes has so far produced no results. The group of 30 are not so shy and have been working hard to produce ever more minor nitpicks; and Sue is at this moment posting a new PDF, even though she should be celebrating her birthday and relaxing.
                            >
                            > I always find it interesting that the general complaints largely come from the eastern part of the USA. Players in Italy, France, Germany, Scandinavia and the Republic of Ireland do not seem to have trouble.
                            >
                            > Phil
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                          • Phil Barker
                            Sometimes the intent should be obvious to everyone except Bob or has been discussed in earlier emails. I tend to specify it only when comments imply it has not
                            Message 13 of 25 , Dec 1, 2012
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                              Sometimes the intent should be obvious to everyone except Bob or has been
                              discussed in earlier emails. I tend to specify it only when comments imply
                              it has not been. I try to insulate this group from much of the discussion of
                              the gang of 30 and present you with a consensus. Little of the discussion
                              involves substantive changes to how the game is played. I think the only
                              changes of that sort in the version just put up concern cataphracts.

                              Phil

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: rich
                              Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2012 7:20 AM
                              To: DBA@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: [DBA] Re: Style and content


                              When writing a set of wargames rules with a big(30) group of people involved
                              wouldn't the first step be to decide what you want to happen ie the intent
                              of the rules before you start writing rules to make the intent
                              happen?????????? Or would you just write rules willy nilly and let the
                              intent fall where it may?

                              Rich Gause


                              --- In DBA@yahoogroups.com, Robert Beattie <beattie@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > I don't think Phil considers it necessary to tell reviewers what his
                              > intent is. He doesn't say what he wants to have happen, nor does he say
                              > what outcomes should be expected. He just gives you the rule-- do this and
                              > that. And if it works fine. This is why he does not include examples of
                              > rules Should play out in the text. It would make them clearer but he
                              > thinks more text ads to confusion.
                              >
                              > Very few times in the review process, at least that I can recall, he has
                              > said that he wants a certain effect to happen. He will often give a
                              > historical example to the reviewers in a message exchange, but never in
                              > the text itself.
                              >
                              > In this debate over edge sitting, I've never understood his intentions. Is
                              > it to stop cavalry from moving around the edge being stopped by foot. Why
                              > is that a problem? I just don't know. we just get various rules that
                              > impact the course of the game.
                              >
                              > I have tried not to worry too much about what the rule is supposed to do,
                              > I have only tried to make sure that I could understand it, and that
                              > perhaps most others could too.
                              >
                              > Bob
                              > Dictated and sent from my iPad Which (explains Spelling errors and weird
                              > grammar!)
                              >
                              > On Nov 30, 2012, at 1:36 PM, David Schlanger <david.schlanger@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > > How do players effectively play test rules and provide quality feedback
                              > > when there is a lack of knowledge regarding the intent of the rules and
                              > > how to actually play the rules as written?
                              > >
                              > > DS
                              > >
                              > > >>> Robert Beattie <beattie@...> 11/30/2012 10:32 AM >>>
                              > > Rich, please do not think that the Helpers (also known as Nit Pickers)
                              > > ever know the intent of a rule. One in a very infrequent while, Phil
                              > > tells what he is getting at. Mostly we just see the rules, as shown on
                              > > Yahoo and are told to have a go.
                              > > Bob
                              > >
                              > > On Nov 30, 2012, at 9:49 AM, rich wrote:
                              > >
                              > > > Not very surprising that most of the comments are coming from the
                              > > > group of 30. To know whether something is unclear and especially to
                              > > > write a clearer rule you would have to know what the intent of the
                              > > > rule is in the first place....
                              > > >
                              > > > Rich Gause
                              > > >
                              > > > --- In DBA@yahoogroups.com, "Phil Barker" <pc.barker@> wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > My suggestion last week that players complaining about language
                              > > > > should specify specific bits they cannot understand and suggest
                              > > > > wording changes has so far produced no results. The group of 30 are
                              > > > > not so shy and have been working hard to produce ever more minor
                              > > > > nitpicks; and Sue is at this moment posting a new PDF, even though
                              > > > > she should be celebrating her birthday and relaxing.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > I always find it interesting that the general complaints largely
                              > > > > come from the eastern part of the USA. Players in Italy, France,
                              > > > > Germany, Scandinavia and the Republic of Ireland do not seem to have
                              > > > > trouble.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Phil
                              > > > >
                              > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > >
                              > > ------------------------------------
                              > >
                              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              > >
                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >




                              ------------------------------------

                              Yahoo! Groups Links
                            • Phil Barker
                              If you wanted to be party to discussions in the group of 30, you should have stayed with it, rather than deserting at an early stage to join the 2.2 minus
                              Message 14 of 25 , Dec 1, 2012
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                                If you wanted to be party to discussions in the group of 30, you should have
                                stayed with it, rather than deserting at an early stage to join the 2.2
                                minus crowd.

                                Phil

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: David Schlanger
                                Sent: Friday, November 30, 2012 7:19 PM
                                Cc: DBA@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [DBA] Re: Style and content

                                I agree that he says he doesn't consider it necessary. I agree that he
                                doesn't say what he wants to have happen. I agree he doesn't say what
                                outcomes should be expected.
                                Unfortunately, I don't agree that it works fine.

                                DS

                                >>> Robert Beattie <beattie@...> 11/30/2012 2:13 PM >>>
                                I don't think Phil considers it necessary to tell reviewers what his intent
                                is. He doesn't say what he wants to have happen, nor does he say what
                                outcomes should be expected. He just gives you the rule-- do this and that.
                                And if it works fine. This is why he does not include examples of rules
                                Should play out in the text. It would make them clearer but he thinks more
                                text ads to confusion.

                                Very few times in the review process, at least that I can recall, he has
                                said that he wants a certain effect to happen. He will often give a
                                historical example to the reviewers in a message exchange, but never in the
                                text itself.

                                In this debate over edge sitting, I've never understood his intentions. Is
                                it to stop cavalry from moving around the edge being stopped by foot. Why is
                                that a problem? I just don't know. we just get various rules that impact the
                                course of the game.

                                I have tried not to worry too much about what the rule is supposed to do, I
                                have only tried to make sure that I could understand it, and that perhaps
                                most others could too.

                                Bob
                                Dictated and sent from my iPad Which (explains Spelling errors and weird
                                grammar!)

                                On Nov 30, 2012, at 1:36 PM, David Schlanger <david.schlanger@...>
                                wrote:

                                > How do players effectively play test rules and provide quality feedback
                                > when there is a lack of knowledge regarding the intent of the rules and
                                > how to actually play the rules as written?
                                >
                                > DS
                                >
                                > >>> Robert Beattie <beattie@...> 11/30/2012 10:32 AM >>>
                                > Rich, please do not think that the Helpers (also known as Nit Pickers)
                                > ever know the intent of a rule. One in a very infrequent while, Phil tells
                                > what he is getting at. Mostly we just see the rules, as shown on Yahoo and
                                > are told to have a go.
                                > Bob
                                >
                                > On Nov 30, 2012, at 9:49 AM, rich wrote:
                                >
                                > > Not very surprising that most of the comments are coming from the group
                                > > of 30. To know whether something is unclear and especially to write a
                                > > clearer rule you would have to know what the intent of the rule is in
                                > > the first place....
                                > >
                                > > Rich Gause
                                > >
                                > > --- In DBA@yahoogroups.com, "Phil Barker" <pc.barker@...> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > My suggestion last week that players complaining about language should
                                > > > specify specific bits they cannot understand and suggest wording
                                > > > changes has so far produced no results. The group of 30 are not so shy
                                > > > and have been working hard to produce ever more minor nitpicks; and
                                > > > Sue is at this moment posting a new PDF, even though she should be
                                > > > celebrating her birthday and relaxing.
                                > > >
                                > > > I always find it interesting that the general complaints largely come
                                > > > from the eastern part of the USA. Players in Italy, France, Germany,
                                > > > Scandinavia and the Republic of Ireland do not seem to have trouble.
                                > > >
                                > > > Phil
                                > > >
                                > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                > ------------------------------------
                                >
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                ------------------------------------

                                Yahoo! Groups Links





                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                ------------------------------------

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                              • skwebb0640
                                I had previously provided very detailed play tests of a number of games using v3.0 and also an extensive list of confusing or ambiguous rules. Phil has not
                                Message 15 of 25 , Dec 1, 2012
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                                  I had previously provided very detailed play tests of a number of games using v3.0 and also an extensive list of confusing or ambiguous rules.

                                  Phil has not bothered to comment on the either.

                                  I guess he isn't really serious when he asks this group for play tests and examples of rules.

                                  So why bother anymore.

                                  He will just publish yet another badly laid out, badly worded version no matter what our input.

                                  Steve

                                  --- In DBA@yahoogroups.com, Robert Beattie <beattie@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Most of the eastern US is converted to the WADBAG initiated rules, so no complaints from them. In the group of 30, the complaints come mostly from UK, Australia, NZ, and Sweden, and a few from midwest USA.
                                  > Bob
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > On Nov 30, 2012, at 5:39 AM, Phil Barker wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > My suggestion last week that players complaining about language should specify specific bits they cannot understand and suggest wording changes has so far produced no results. The group of 30 are not so shy and have been working hard to produce ever more minor nitpicks; and Sue is at this moment posting a new PDF, even though she should be celebrating her birthday and relaxing.
                                  > >
                                  > > I always find it interesting that the general complaints largely come from the eastern part of the USA. Players in Italy, France, Germany, Scandinavia and the Republic of Ireland do not seem to have trouble.
                                  > >
                                  > > Phil
                                  > >
                                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                • John Saunders
                                  To: DBA@yahoogroups.com From: david.schlanger@nara.gov Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2012 13:36:30 -0500 Subject: Re: [DBA] Re: Style and content How do players
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Dec 1, 2012
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    To: DBA@yahoogroups.com
                                    From: david.schlanger@...
                                    Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2012 13:36:30 -0500
                                    Subject: Re: [DBA] Re: Style and content


























                                    How do players effectively play test rules and provide quality feedback when there is a lack of knowledge regarding the intent of the rules and how to actually play the rules as written?



                                    DS



                                    Because then the feedback is based on what is written and not what is thought to have been written.
                                    I have found that one way of getting Phil to relook at something is to explain what the effect of what he has written and to ask if this is what he intended.
                                    Antigonas One Eye
















                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Peter Lloyd-Jones
                                    Hi I would hope that the author of a set of rules would include the Aim in the introduction. I think that is what we have. All the best Peter L-J
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Dec 1, 2012
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Hi

                                      I would hope that the author of a set of rules would include the "Aim" in the introduction.

                                      I think that is what we have.

                                      All the best

                                      Peter L-J
                                    • David Schlanger
                                      No thanks. And just for the record, when I left your rules development group it was not at an early stage. In November 2011, 3.0 was in a Nearly Final Draft
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Dec 2, 2012
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        No thanks.

                                        And just for the record, when I left your rules development group it was not at an early stage.

                                        In November 2011, 3.0 was in a "Nearly Final Draft" version state with statements about release by Cold Wars.

                                        DS

                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: "Phil Barker" <pc.barker@...>
                                        To: <DBA@yahoogroups.com>

                                        Sent: 12/1/2012 4:49:48 AM
                                        Subject: Re: [DBA] Re: Style and content

                                        If you wanted to be party to discussions in the group of 30, you should have
                                        stayed with it, rather than deserting at an early stage to join the 2.2
                                        minus crowd.

                                        Phil

                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: David Schlanger
                                        Sent: Friday, November 30, 2012 7:19 PM
                                        Cc: DBA@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: Re: [DBA] Re: Style and content

                                        I agree that he says he doesn't consider it necessary. I agree that he
                                        doesn't say what he wants to have happen. I agree he doesn't say what
                                        outcomes should be expected.
                                        Unfortunately, I don't agree that it works fine.

                                        DS

                                        >>> Robert Beattie <beattie@...> 11/30/2012 2:13 PM >>>
                                        I don't think Phil considers it necessary to tell reviewers what his intent
                                        is. He doesn't say what he wants to have happen, nor does he say what
                                        outcomes should be expected. He just gives you the rule-- do this and that.
                                        And if it works fine. This is why he does not include examples of rules
                                        Should play out in the text. It would make them clearer but he thinks more
                                        text ads to confusion.

                                        Very few times in the review process, at least that I can recall, he has
                                        said that he wants a certain effect to happen. He will often give a
                                        historical example to the reviewers in a message exchange, but never in the
                                        text itself.

                                        In this debate over edge sitting, I've never understood his intentions. Is
                                        it to stop cavalry from moving around the edge being stopped by foot. Why is
                                        that a problem? I just don't know. we just get various rules that impact the
                                        course of the game.

                                        I have tried not to worry too much about what the rule is supposed to do, I
                                        have only tried to make sure that I could understand it, and that perhaps
                                        most others could too.

                                        Bob
                                        Dictated and sent from my iPad Which (explains Spelling errors and weird
                                        grammar!)

                                        On Nov 30, 2012, at 1:36 PM, David Schlanger <david.schlanger@...>
                                        wrote:

                                        > How do players effectively play test rules and provide quality feedback
                                        > when there is a lack of knowledge regarding the intent of the rules and
                                        > how to actually play the rules as written?
                                        >
                                        > DS
                                        >
                                        > >>> Robert Beattie <beattie@...> 11/30/2012 10:32 AM >>>
                                        > Rich, please do not think that the Helpers (also known as Nit Pickers)
                                        > ever know the intent of a rule. One in a very infrequent while, Phil tells
                                        > what he is getting at. Mostly we just see the rules, as shown on Yahoo and
                                        > are told to have a go.
                                        > Bob
                                        >
                                        > On Nov 30, 2012, at 9:49 AM, rich wrote:
                                        >
                                        > > Not very surprising that most of the comments are coming from the group
                                        > > of 30. To know whether something is unclear and especially to write a
                                        > > clearer rule you would have to know what the intent of the rule is in
                                        > > the first place....
                                        > >
                                        > > Rich Gause
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In DBA@yahoogroups.com, "Phil Barker" <pc.barker@...> wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > My suggestion last week that players complaining about language should
                                        > > > specify specific bits they cannot understand and suggest wording
                                        > > > changes has so far produced no results. The group of 30 are not so shy
                                        > > > and have been working hard to produce ever more minor nitpicks; and
                                        > > > Sue is at this moment posting a new PDF, even though she should be
                                        > > > celebrating her birthday and relaxing.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > I always find it interesting that the general complaints largely come
                                        > > > from the eastern part of the USA. Players in Italy, France, Germany,
                                        > > > Scandinavia and the Republic of Ireland do not seem to have trouble.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Phil
                                        > > >
                                        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                        > ------------------------------------
                                        >
                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                        >


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                        ------------------------------------

                                        Yahoo! Groups Links





                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                        ------------------------------------

                                        Yahoo! Groups Links






                                        ------------------------------------

                                        Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      • Mike
                                        ... John, I see now, this thread is a discussion about playing the game, rather than proof reading? When I am not quite sure of the meaning of a sentence, I
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Dec 2, 2012
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          --- In DBA@yahoogroups.com, John Saunders <jtstigley@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > To: DBA@yahoogroups.com
                                          > From: david.schlanger@...
                                          > Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2012 13:36:30 -0500
                                          > Subject: Re: [DBA] Re: Style and content
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > How do players effectively play test rules and provide quality feedback when there is a lack of knowledge regarding the intent of the rules and how to actually play the rules as written?
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > DS
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Because then the feedback is based on what is written and not what is thought to have been written.
                                          > I have found that one way of getting Phil to relook at something is to explain what the effect of what he has written and to ask if this is what he intended.
                                          > Antigonas One Eye
                                          >

                                          John,

                                          I see now, this thread is a discussion about playing the game, rather than proof reading?

                                          When I am not quite sure of the meaning of a sentence, I read it again slowly, perhaps even putting figures on the table.
                                        • William Brownlow
                                          Phil,      I live in California and I am gratified to learn that the majority of  unreasonable rules lawyers are from the east coast. I met you and Sue in
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Dec 2, 2012
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Phil,
                                                 I live in California and I am gratified to learn that the majority of 
                                            unreasonable rules lawyers are from the east coast. I met you and Sue
                                            in Lancaster last year. I am the retired infantry Master Sergeant from
                                            California who spent time trading Army stories with you. I have been 
                                            reading the posts on Yahoo and I must observe that about a third of
                                            the people who email you are full of crap. I appreciate the work you
                                            and Sue have done so far. I will purchase and play DBA 3.0 when it
                                            comes out. Anyone who doesn't like it can write their own rules. Happy
                                            Birthday Sue.
                                                 Bill Brownlow


                                            ________________________________
                                            From: Phil Barker <pc.barker@...>
                                            To: DBA <DBA@yahoogroups.com>
                                            Sent: Friday, November 30, 2012 2:39 AM
                                            Subject: [DBA] Style and content


                                             
                                            My suggestion last week that players complaining about language should specify specific bits they cannot understand and suggest wording changes has so far produced no results. The group of 30 are not so shy and have been working hard to produce ever more minor nitpicks; and Sue is at this moment posting a new PDF, even though she should be celebrating her birthday and relaxing.

                                            I always find it interesting that the general complaints largely come from the eastern part of the USA. Players in Italy, France, Germany, Scandinavia and the Republic of Ireland do not seem to have trouble.

                                            Phil

                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Robert Beattie
                                            This is an excellent comment about meet. This problem came up with 2.2 and Phil wrote the following in 2005. This would be useful for 3.0, or will go into
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Dec 6, 2012
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              This is an excellent comment about "meet." This problem came up with 2.2 and Phil wrote the following in 2005. This would be useful for 3.0, or will go into a Guide for the Game.
                                              "MEETING
                                              A recoiling element meets another when it is stopped by it, ie. it would otherwise have moved further. If it has been able to recoil its full distance, it is not stopped. Thus, if it completes its recoil but ends in contact with a friendly element, it does not pass through it or push it back. If it completes its recoil but ends in contact with enemy, it is in trouble next bound.

                                              Phil, however, needs no instruction on how to write understandable text. He has many years experience doing this.
                                              Bob




                                              On Nov 30, 2012, at 8:05 AM, a_marmier wrote:

                                              >
                                              >
                                              > --- In DBA@yahoogroups.com, "Phil Barker" <pc.barker@...> wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > My suggestion last week that players complaining about language should specify specific bits they cannot understand and suggest wording changes has so far produced no results.
                                              >
                                              > No surprise, the self-imposed constraints are too stringent and unreasonable.
                                              >
                                              > Still I can point the following out:
                                              >
                                              > - "meet" is a verb with many meaning. None of these cover the use you make of it. Either you define it (as per "within", another term with a precise topological meaning in DBA), or you use another expression.
                                              >
                                              > - Illustrations (Tables, Figures) should be numbered, captionned and refered to from the text.
                                              >
                                              > Have fun,
                                              > Arnaud
                                              >
                                              > PS: a very good book on technical writing is "The Craft of Scientific Writing", by Michael Alley.
                                              >
                                              > Some good resources there:
                                              > http://www.writing.engr.psu.edu/csw.html
                                              >
                                              >



                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Sue Laflin-Barker
                                              Thank you for your birthday wishes. Sue ... From: William Brownlow Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2012 11:51 PM To: DBA@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [DBA] Style
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Dec 8, 2012
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Thank you for your birthday wishes.
                                                Sue


                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                From: William Brownlow
                                                Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2012 11:51 PM
                                                To: DBA@yahoogroups.com
                                                Subject: Re: [DBA] Style and content

                                                Phil,
                                                I live in California and I am gratified to learn that the majority of
                                                unreasonable rules lawyers are from the east coast. I met you and Sue
                                                in Lancaster last year. I am the retired infantry Master Sergeant from
                                                California who spent time trading Army stories with you. I have been
                                                reading the posts on Yahoo and I must observe that about a third of
                                                the people who email you are full of crap. I appreciate the work you
                                                and Sue have done so far. I will purchase and play DBA 3.0 when it
                                                comes out. Anyone who doesn't like it can write their own rules. Happy
                                                Birthday Sue.
                                                Bill Brownlow


                                                ________________________________
                                                From: Phil Barker <pc.barker@...>
                                                To: DBA <DBA@yahoogroups.com>
                                                Sent: Friday, November 30, 2012 2:39 AM
                                                Subject: [DBA] Style and content



                                                My suggestion last week that players complaining about language should
                                                specify specific bits they cannot understand and suggest wording changes has
                                                so far produced no results. The group of 30 are not so shy and have been
                                                working hard to produce ever more minor nitpicks; and Sue is at this moment
                                                posting a new PDF, even though she should be celebrating her birthday and
                                                relaxing.

                                                I always find it interesting that the general complaints largely come from
                                                the eastern part of the USA. Players in Italy, France, Germany, Scandinavia
                                                and the Republic of Ireland do not seem to have trouble.

                                                Phil

                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                                ------------------------------------

                                                Yahoo! Groups Links
                                              • Don Ray
                                                Happy Birthday, Sue! Thanks to you and Phil for the countless hours that DBA brings to me! Don Ray in Calgary beside the Canadian Rockies ... [Non-text
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Dec 9, 2012
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Happy Birthday, Sue!
                                                  Thanks to you and Phil for the countless hours that DBA brings to me!
                                                  Don Ray in Calgary beside the Canadian Rockies

                                                  On Dec 8, 2012, at 2:51 AM, Sue Laflin-Barker wrote:

                                                  > Thank you for your birthday wishes.
                                                  > Sue
                                                  >
                                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                                  > From: William Brownlow
                                                  > Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2012 11:51 PM
                                                  > To: DBA@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > Subject: Re: [DBA] Style and content
                                                  >
                                                  > Phil,
                                                  > I live in California and I am gratified to learn that the majority of
                                                  > unreasonable rules lawyers are from the east coast. I met you and Sue
                                                  > in Lancaster last year. I am the retired infantry Master Sergeant from
                                                  > California who spent time trading Army stories with you. I have been
                                                  > reading the posts on Yahoo and I must observe that about a third of
                                                  > the people who email you are full of crap. I appreciate the work you
                                                  > and Sue have done so far. I will purchase and play DBA 3.0 when it
                                                  > comes out. Anyone who doesn't like it can write their own rules. Happy
                                                  > Birthday Sue.
                                                  > Bill Brownlow
                                                  >
                                                  > ________________________________
                                                  > From: Phil Barker <pc.barker@...>
                                                  > To: DBA <DBA@yahoogroups.com>
                                                  > Sent: Friday, November 30, 2012 2:39 AM
                                                  > Subject: [DBA] Style and content
                                                  >
                                                  > My suggestion last week that players complaining about language should
                                                  > specify specific bits they cannot understand and suggest wording
                                                  > changes has
                                                  > so far produced no results. The group of 30 are not so shy and have
                                                  > been
                                                  > working hard to produce ever more minor nitpicks; and Sue is at this
                                                  > moment
                                                  > posting a new PDF, even though she should be celebrating her
                                                  > birthday and
                                                  > relaxing.
                                                  >
                                                  > I always find it interesting that the general complaints largely
                                                  > come from
                                                  > the eastern part of the USA. Players in Italy, France, Germany,
                                                  > Scandinavia
                                                  > and the Republic of Ireland do not seem to have trouble.
                                                  >
                                                  > Phil
                                                  >
                                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  >
                                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  >
                                                  > ------------------------------------
                                                  >
                                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                  >
                                                  >



                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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