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Just thinking about Camillan and Polybian Romans...

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  • saint_sicarii
    For those who want to give them a try... I was thinking about some alternatives for the Earlier Republican Romans (Camillan and Polybian), and was thinking
    Message 1 of 6 , Sep 27, 2006
      For those who want to give them a try... I was thinking about some
      alternatives for the Earlier Republican Romans (Camillan and
      Polybian), and was thinking that the relations between theh Blades,
      and spears always struck me as strange, not to mention the absence of
      the Italians.

      Although some people claim that the 2 Sp are the Italians or contain a
      portion of them...

      Anyway, I thought of the following changes:

      Camillan

      1x 3Cv or 4Sp(General), (either 2 x 3Cv and 3 x 4Sp - if General is a
      Bd) or (1 x 3Cv and 4 x 4Bd - if General is Cv), 2x 4Bd, 2 x 4Ax, 2x 2Ps

      Polybian

      1x 3Cv or 4Bd(General), (either 2 x 3Cv and 3 x 4Bd - if General is a
      Bd) or (1 x 3Cv and 4 x 4Bd - if General is Cv), 2x 4Sp, 2 x 4Ax, 2x 2Ps

      This makes the Legions 6 elements in both cases... Perhaps in the
      Polybians this gives a slightly inaccurate proportion of Bd to spear,
      as the Triarii were only half the strength of the equivalent Hastati
      and/or Princeps...

      Just something to consider trying out... Plus, it gives you a chance
      to use some of the cool Italians coming out by Xyston and other
      companies...

      Matthew
    • historicalgnome
      The Green Bay Wargamers Guild is hosting Major Mini Con at the Gnome Games Convention Center (2160 Ridge Road Green Bay, WI) on October 13 - 15. The convention
      Message 2 of 6 , Sep 28, 2006
        The Green Bay Wargamers Guild is hosting Major Mini Con at the Gnome
        Games Convention Center (2160 Ridge Road Green Bay, WI) on October 13 -
        15.

        The convention is a weekend dedicated to the hobby of miniature
        wargaming and will feature about 75 diffferent games and events
        including a learn to play DBA table and an open DBA social tournament
        set for Saturday afternoon.

        Entry for the weekend is $10 or $5 / day. For more info email
        majormini@...

        The Green Bay Wargamers Guild is a loose confederation of historical
        miniature wargamers dedicated to the preservation and advancement of
        the hobby and art of miniature wargaming from all periods.

        Pat
      • James Doty
        ... a portion of them... The Italians are indistinguishable from the Romans in both the Camillan and Polybian lists in terms of DBA elements. The Italian
        Message 3 of 6 , Sep 30, 2006
          --- In DBA@yahoogroups.com, "saint_sicarii" <Judas@...> wrote:
          >
          > For those who want to give them a try... I was thinking about some
          > alternatives for the Earlier Republican Romans (Camillan and
          > Polybian), and was thinking that the relations between theh Blades,
          > and spears always struck me as strange, not to mention the absence of
          > the Italians.
          >
          > Although some people claim that the 2 Sp are the Italians or contain
          a portion of them...

          The Italians are indistinguishable from the Romans in both the
          Camillan and Polybian lists in terms of DBA elements. The Italian
          allies provide blades, spears, and psiloi just like the Romans do.
          The italians just provide a higher proportion of cavalry.

          The DBM book actually specifically says that "non-Italian" allies are
          Ax(I), while the Romans AND Italian alae provide the hastati,
          principes, triarii, and leves.

          Of course this means you can outfit half your DBA elements with Xyston
          Italian figures to represent the allies.
        • Peter Kershaw
          ... It is the _Latin_ allies which are indistinguishable. The Italian ... It actually says Camillan: Non-Latin Italian infantry - Ax(I) Polybian: Other
          Message 4 of 6 , Oct 1, 2006
            >
            > The Italians are indistinguishable from the Romans in both the
            > Camillan and Polybian lists in terms of DBA elements.

            It is the _Latin_ allies which are indistinguishable.


            The Italian
            > allies provide blades, spears, and psiloi just like the Romans do.
            > The italians just provide a higher proportion of cavalry.
            >
            > The DBM book actually specifically says that "non-Italian" allies are
            > Ax(I),

            It actually says
            Camillan:
            "Non-Latin Italian infantry - Ax(I)
            Polybian:
            "Other Italian allied infantry or Macedonian or Thracian volunteers"
            (mostly) Ax(I)


            while the Romans AND Italian alae provide the hastati,
            > principes, triarii, and leves.
            >
            > Of course this means you can outfit half your DBA elements with Xyston
            > Italian figures to represent the allies.
            >
            The Latins would be in Roman style - AMPW sugests that some may have had a
            circular breast plate rather than square.

            The proportions of Bd to Sp are a bit off - if we just count Hastati,
            Princepes and Triarii, then both lists work on ratios of 3:3:2 - obviously
            you can't have 1.5 elements of Triarii.

            Ax probably ought to be available though what would you drop to provide
            them? Part of the difficulty of having a 12 element limit. In BBDBA, you
            could have two Roman/Latin contingents and some kind of Oscan to provide the
            Ax, though you'd have to tweak things as they would be better not deployed
            as a single command.


            PK
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          • James Doty
            I stand corrected. I don t know if this is the reason why there are no Ax in these Roman lists, but some nations which have allies included in their list for
            Message 5 of 6 , Oct 1, 2006
              I stand corrected.

              I don't know if this is the reason why there are no Ax in these
              Roman lists, but some nations which have allies included in their
              list for DBM don't have them listed for DBA. Instead they are
              listed as potential allies for BBDBA.

              JD

              > It actually says
              > Camillan:
              > "Non-Latin Italian infantry - Ax(I)
              > Polybian:
              > "Other Italian allied infantry or Macedonian or Thracian
              volunteers"
              > (mostly) Ax(I)
              >
              > Ax probably ought to be available though what would you drop to
              provide
              > them? Part of the difficulty of having a 12 element limit. In
              BBDBA, you
              > could have two Roman/Latin contingents and some kind of Oscan to
              provide the
              > Ax, though you'd have to tweak things as they would be better not
              deployed
              > as a single command.
              >
              >
              > PK
              > >
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              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
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            • Peter Kershaw
              ... Indeed. There are some armies (Papal springs to mind) where the core units are not enough to build an army in DBM - allies of some sort have to be bought.
              Message 6 of 6 , Oct 2, 2006
                >
                > I don't know if this is the reason why there are no Ax in these
                > Roman lists, but some nations which have allies included in their
                > list for DBM don't have them listed for DBA. Instead they are
                > listed as potential allies for BBDBA.
                >
                > JD
                >
                Indeed. There are some armies (Papal springs to mind) where the core units
                are not enough to build an army in DBM - allies of some sort have to be
                bought. In DBA you just get the option of the core units.

                Romans are even more difficult since the 'allies' aren't allies in a DBA/DBM
                sense. The Italians had to turn up, so really ought to be at least an option
                in the main DBA list. However, I guess this would disturb the balance of the
                h/p/t/v and the feel of the army.

                PK
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