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RE: [DBA] War Wagon rules

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  • TERRY GRINER
    Sorry Bob. I mis read your original post and didn t realize you were talking about initial contact. I agree there are only four places to make initial
    Message 1 of 41 , Mar 6, 2006
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      Sorry Bob. I mis read your original post and didn't realize you were
      talking about "initial" contact. I agree there are only four places to make
      initial contact. I was thinking of the "other" contacts and how they could
      result in 6 total elements contacting a WWg - although I doubt anyone would
      want to do such a thing.

      Terry in Spokane


      -----Original Message-----
      From: DBA@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DBA@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bob
      Beattie
      Sent: Sunday, March 05, 2006 6:41 AM
      To: DBA@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [DBA] War Wagon rules

      A War Wagon is two Element Base Widths Deep, but it is not two
      elements. It has a front edge, a rear edge, and 2 flank edges. It
      has two front corners. The rules say that an element can be
      contacted in only 4 legal positions. On the front edge, corner to
      corner, on the rear edge corner to corner, and on either of the flank
      edges, with attacker touching a front corner. Prior to the rule
      revision about War Wagons, they like other elements, would turn to
      face an attacker if they were contacted (legally) on the flank or
      rear. This was troublesome to many because the WWg was extra long.
      So Phil changed the rule to prevent the WWg from turning. Instead
      the first edge legally contacted would "count" as the front edge for
      combat and the WWg would not need to then turn if this were a rear or
      flank edge.

      My prior point on this was that a flank contact on a WWg must begin
      as a legal contact, touching a front corner. A legal first contact
      by a single element cannot be on a rear corner. A legal first
      contact cannot be in the middle of the WWg, with no corner contacts.
      Once a first legal contact is made by an element, then that side
      counts as the front and all other rules come into effect. An element
      can contact the edge opposite the first legal contact and that
      becomes a "rear" attack.

      Thus if the rear is the first edge contacted, then a second contact
      on the front makes the second contact a "rear" contact. If the first
      legal contact is on a flank edge (also contacting a front corner)
      then that edge counts as as the front and an attack on the rear is a
      "flank" contact. Also after that first legal side edge contact, a
      contact on the opposite side edge is a "rear" attack. Rear and
      flank attacks on a WWg only give the WWg a -1 for combat, they do not
      result in a destroy if the WWg is beaten because a WWg does not
      recoil. The first legal contact is the element that is the one used
      for combat. So a blade legally first contacting the flank, fights
      and an elephant hitting the actual front, but hitting second, is only
      a -1 factor to the WWg.

      So, according to the rules, there are not 6 potential places for the
      INITIAL contact. The initial contact must be a legal contact, just
      as with any element. There are only 4 such places to contact. Once a
      legal contact is made, then that edge counts as the front edge for
      subsequent close combat.

      Once that first legal contact by an element is made on a flank edge,
      I agree there are then 5 places for subsequent elements to make
      contact. An element to the side of a the first legal flank contact
      does nothing in combat as it is not in an overlap position. I would
      consider either contacting element opposite the first legal flank
      contact to be in a "rear" position. Can an element contact the
      opposite side (the "rear") of a the legally contacted side anywhere
      along that side edge? Does it need to be in an otherwise legal
      contact with the actual front corner?

      M= attacking enemy, W=WWg, X = space. Actual front of wagon is
      facing left
      MM
      WWWW
      XMMX

      If the top MM was the first contact, so the top edge is counting as
      the front edge, can the bottom MM make contact in the middle of the WWg?

      Anyway, there has been no change to the rules in what constitutes a
      legal contact against WWg, only which edge can count as the front
      edge, once it is legally contacted. There is nothing in the changed
      rule for WWg combat that says the contact rules are suspended for WWg.

      Bob


      On Mar 4, 2006, at 1:11 PM, TERRY GRINER wrote:

      > Bob;
      >
      > Since the WWg element is two EBW deep, there's room for two enemy
      > elements
      > to contact a flank edge. If this is the first WWg edge contacted,
      > it counts
      > as the front edge and so each attacker has one front corner
      > touching a WWg
      > front corner and both are in legal contact, even if they moved as
      > individual
      > elements. The opposite WWg flank edge now becomes the "new" rear
      > edge for
      > this combat. The requirement for rear edge contact is different:
      > "full
      > front edge to rear edge". Thus two more enemy elements could line up
      > against the "new" rear edge as well. An enemy element could also
      > attack
      > each "new" flank edge.
      >
      > Thus, it seems to me, six elements could indeed legally contact a
      > WWg, even
      > moving as individual elements AS LONG AS the first such attacking
      > element
      > contacts a flank edge and turns it into a front edge.
      >
      > Now, if the front edge were attacked first, then the rear could be
      > attacked,
      > but only one element could attack each flank because of the need to
      > have
      > "front corner to front corner" contact.
      >
      > Terry in Spokane
      >
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: DBA@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DBA@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
      > Bob
      > Beattie
      > Sent: Friday, March 03, 2006 12:29 PM
      > To: DBA@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [DBA] War Wagon rules
      >
      > Given the interesting discussion of War Wagons, I thought that I
      > should point out one small anomaly in the otherwise pretty accurate
      > WADBAG Unofficial Guide to DBA
      > http://www.wadbag.com/DBAGuide/
      >
      > This is a house rule that is reported on page 46, stating that there
      > are 6 possible contact points on a WWg. The rules in the 2.2 WRG
      > edition clearly state what constitutes a legal contact for one
      > element on another.
      > "Other troops (not Art or WWG) can move into contact with enemy
      > elements only if a single element or at least one element of a group
      > ends in both front edge and front corner-to-front corner, or full
      > front edge to rear edge, contact with an enemy element or overlaps
      > enemy already in close combat. If there is a gap between enemy
      > elements less than an element base width wide, some may be in edge
      > but not corner-to-corner contact, so will not take part in combat
      > this bound. "
      >
      > In particular note: "both front edge and front corner-to-front
      > corner." A WWg has front corners prior to any contact by an enemy
      > element and so an element contacting a WWg must make a legal contact
      > on one of those front corners if contacting a flank edge. Once
      > contacted legally, if that is the first edge contacted, that side
      > acts as the front edge for the subsequent Close Combat. Thus a WWg
      > does not have 6 potential contacts for a single enemy element but
      > only 4. Contact by a single enemy element on the original side edge
      > that is not also front corner contact is not allowed. This has been
      > confirmed by Phil. A group move, as the Guide calls a move by a
      > "line" can result in the group making flank contact with the WWg with
      > two enemy because one element of the group is making a legal
      > contact, as noted in the rule above. If I were called upon to make a
      > judgement on this for a NASAMW tournament game, I would follow the
      > rule as written in the WRG edition, 2.2.
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >




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    • TERRY GRINER
      Since a WWg cannot move into edge or corner contact with an enemy element... I think all would agree the WWg is not entitled to move into legal flank
      Message 41 of 41 , Mar 9, 2006
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        Since a WWg "cannot move into edge or corner contact with an enemy
        element..." I think all would agree the WWg is not entitled to move into
        legal flank contact. However, a situation could arise where, through enemy
        recoils or movement, the WWg ends up in a flanking position without moving.
        I think this condition is what the writer was referring to in his post about
        a WWg "closing the door".



        Terry in Spokane


        -----Original Message-----
        From: DBA@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DBA@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Philip
        Hall
        Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 5:13 AM
        To: DBA@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [DBA] Re: War Wagon flanking rules



        Gentlemen,



        I tend to lurk as I am a newcomer to the rules. However, when reading

        the rule



        "Since they could fight all-round, they count the first edge in

        contact as their front edge when in close combat."



        the operative words would seem to be "WHEN IN CLOSE COMBAT"



        I have always interpreted that to mean when them to mean "when the

        unit being attacked". If that is the correct interpretation, then the

        "front" of the war wagon is not determined unless it is the unit being

        attacked. And it isn't. I would consider it an overlap, much the way a

        tower provides overlap of the face of a fortress wall. You are able to

        shoot into the flank of the attacker so would overlap him. A good use

        for a WW, and quite historical.



        I tend to think of WW as small fortresses on the field of battle. As

        such I don't believe they should be allowed to "close the door". Units

        that "close the door" should be mobile, and the manner of use of WW in

        history pretty much precludes them being at all mobile.



        Just my 2 cents.



        Phil





























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