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DBA & HOTT play differences.

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  • mooshthetommy
    Hiya Folks, When I was getting a demo of HOTT at Beer and Pretzels, it was said that there are differences between HOTT and DBA. (that was my first experience
    Message 1 of 11 , Sep 1, 2004
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      Hiya Folks,

      When I was getting a demo of HOTT at Beer and Pretzels, it was said
      that there are differences between HOTT and DBA. (that was my first
      experience of this phenomenon)

      I wondering how much difference there is between the HOTT system
      mechanics and DBA. That is, forgetting the magic and all those
      monster things, and looking at the maneavring and combat moves.

      Essentially, at the back of the HOTT book, there is a set of examples
      of legal and illegal moves according to the rules. ( It would really
      have been nice to see such clear examples illustrated in the back of
      the DBA book. )

      Do these examples also apply wholely to DBA, or are there any
      differences I haven't spotted. I need to know, as my local gaming
      group, who are starting to get interested in DBA need to have a few
      references to help them (and myself) clear issues up as they arise.

      Whilst we have a grasp of the rules, the complexity of the
      conciseness sometimes means we overlook the odd thing or two.

      We're beginners requiring a touch of help.

      Thanks,
      Peeeeeeeet
    • stenicplus
      ... Whilst they use the same basic mechanics they are different games. An oft quoted mantra is HOTT is not DBA or vice versa. Having said that people do like
      Message 2 of 11 , Sep 1, 2004
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        --- In DBA@yahoogroups.com, "mooshthetommy" <mooshthetommy@y...>
        wrote:
        > Hiya Folks,
        >
        > When I was getting a demo of HOTT at Beer and Pretzels, it was said
        > that there are differences between HOTT and DBA. (that was my first
        > experience of this phenomenon)
        >
        > I wondering how much difference there is between the HOTT system
        > mechanics and DBA. That is, forgetting the magic and all those
        > monster things, and looking at the maneavring and combat moves.
        >


        Whilst they use the same basic mechanics they are different games. An
        oft quoted mantra is "HOTT is not DBA" or vice versa. Having said
        that people do like the clarity of HOTT and have been known to use it
        to determine the meaning in DBA. In the privacy of your own home this
        is fine but risky if you plan on playing others who understand
        something different in DBA.There are subtle differences to the game
        play that are crucial so it's important to know them.

        HOTT does not recognise light troops as separate elements (Light
        Horse, skirmishers etc..) and assumes them to be inherent parts of
        the 'proper' elements like the Blades or Spear and thus skirmishing
        is assumed to happen at a sub-game level. Nor does HOTT use separate
        Pike, they are all classed as Spear.

        HOTT does of course use heroic/fantasy elements though - they being
        somewhat the point of afantasy game :).

        Some prefer to use HOTT for historical games rather than DBA because
        of the clarity


        >
        > Do these examples also apply wholely to DBA, or are there any
        > differences I haven't spotted.


        In short no to the first, yes to the second. I've played both and
        find them enjoyable but prefer HOTT.

        Steve P
      • stenicplus
        ... Thinking about this it may have been Ken and me who you were playing with. I had the Napoleonic army vs Ken s Undead. Steve P
        Message 3 of 11 , Sep 1, 2004
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          --- In DBA@yahoogroups.com, "mooshthetommy" <mooshthetommy@y...>
          wrote:
          > Hiya Folks,
          >
          > When I was getting a demo of HOTT at Beer and Pretzels, it was said
          > that there are differences between HOTT and DBA. (that was my first
          > experience of this phenomenon)
          >


          Thinking about this it may have been Ken and me who you were playing
          with. I had the Napoleonic army vs Ken's Undead.

          Steve P
        • Robert Beattie
          There are now many differences between Hott and DBA. These are forgetting the magic and all those monster things, and looking at the maneavring and combat
          Message 4 of 11 , Sep 1, 2004
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            There are now many differences between Hott and DBA. These are
            "forgetting the magic and all those
            monster things, and looking at the maneavring and combat moves."

            When HOTT was first released it was very close to DBA. The major game
            difference was that to achieve a flank or rear attack in HOTT you had
            to start on the flank or rear. Then DBA evolved to 2.0 and DBM came
            out. Richard Bodley Scott, it is rumored, went to play HOTT a couple
            of years ago and was amazed at how different that game was from the DBA
            and DBM he was playing. Thus he began a major effort to bring HOTT up
            to date, setting up a Yahoo online group to assist in this. Every rule
            was reviewed and changed if needed to match DBA or DBM. The biggest
            problem was that the game was not just made the same as DBA, its
            original basis, but it was often changed into something different where
            RBS did not happen to like the DBA rule. Many times the change
            mirrored the DBM procedure.

            Now, HOTT2 is very different from DBA 2.2. The irony is that the
            change process in effect, leap frogged HOTT past DBR so now they are
            perhaps more different than they were when HOTT was 1.0 and DBA was
            2.0. SO instead of making the two comparable, RBS has made them
            different again.

            Many of the differences are subtle. In DBA2.2 an element within the
            base width distance area of two elements can attack either, in HOTT2 it
            must attack the closest. In DBA2.2 and element can shoot at any element
            within a base width on either side, in HOTT2 it can shoot only at
            elements inside a base width on either side.

            HOTT 2 deployment, low score sets terrain, deploys first and moves
            first
            DBA 2.2 low score sets terrain, deploys first, moves second

            Extra pips are needed in DBA2.2 for many more reasons than in HOTT2

            HOTT keeps the almost non-understandable rule "None can start in
            contact with an enemy element's front edge." This is not in DBA2.2.
            What is the "none" here, a group move? Who can explain this move?

            In HOTT2 a line can from into a column at any time, in DBA2.2 only when
            enter a gap or to cross bad going, a river, or to move on road.

            The whole "Crossing an enemy element's front" rule is different in the
            two games. You can understand the one in HOTT2.

            In HOTT2 an element can move into corner to corner contact or edge to
            edge contact with enemy, in DBA2.2 only if the enemy is already in
            frontal combat contact.

            In DBA2.2 an element can enter a gap as wide as its leading edge, in
            HOTT2 it cannot even partly enter a gap less than a base width wide.

            HOTT2 offers a very good definition of when shooting is obstructed, no
            such explanation in DBA2.2. There is no destruction in HOTT2 of an
            element caused by shooting on target rear edge, as is in DBA2.2. In
            HOTT2 the target just first turns 180degrees and then recoils if shot
            on the rear edge.

            In DBA2.2 only LH and Ps will conform if contacted by enemy group, in
            HOTT2 any single element will conform. In both cases there are some
            terrain restrictions.

            DBA2.2 did add Warbands to the list of elements not getting a -2
            fighting in bad going to match HOTT2. Also, DBA2.2 now restricts
            recoils and pursuits to a max of a base width as does HOTT2.

            In HOTT2 an element can break off only if it moves further than its
            opponent. In DBA2.2 any element can break off.

            HOTT2 measures moves from a front corner, DBA2.2 from front or rear
            that moves the most. HOTT2 allows a corner to corner (overlap)
            position to move to enemy flank without measuring, but DBA2.2 requires
            the flanked element to be in frontal combat.

            There probably are other differences, these are just the ones I
            remember. It would have been such a BOON to DBX players if RBS had
            just made HOTT2 match DBA2 and thus explained the vagueries of DBA
            instead of making a new game. Bringing the two into conformity was his
            original goal, I thought. Too bad Phil could not have used the fuller
            explanations of HOTT2 and the great diagrams to make DBA2.2 more
            understandable. He is so concerned that people use HOTT as an
            explanation for DBA that he now says in the introduction,
            "Note that the rules of DBM, DBR, HOTT and future derivatives have no
            relevance to DBA."

            You have to figure out DBA on your own with no recourse to the other
            games. What a pity the basic mechanisms of all these great games
            cannot be the same.


            Bob
            beattie@...
            On Sep 1, 2004, at 7:59 AM, mooshthetommy wrote:

            Hiya Folks,

            When I was getting a demo of HOTT at Beer and Pretzels, it was said
            that there are differences between HOTT and DBA. (that was my first
            experience of this phenomenon)

            I wondering how much difference there is between the HOTT system
            mechanics and DBA. That is, forgetting the magic and all those
            monster things, and looking at the maneavring and combat moves.

            Essentially, at the back of the HOTT book, there is a set of examples
            of legal and illegal moves according to the rules. ( It would really
            have been nice to see such clear examples illustrated in the back of
            the DBA book. )

            Do these examples also apply wholely to DBA, or are there any
            differences I haven't spotted. I need to know, as my local gaming
            group, who are starting to get interested in DBA need to have a few
            references to help them (and myself) clear issues up as they arise.

            Whilst we have a grasp of the rules, the complexity of the
            conciseness sometimes means we overlook the odd thing or two.

            We're beginners requiring a touch of help.

            Thanks,
            Peeeeeeeet








            Yahoo! Groups Links
          • Aubrey J. Young
            The only difference I can tell is the movement of the bow and of course, the magic. Now in HOTTs, there is a 3 inches for the bow and in DBA 2 inches. I
            Message 5 of 11 , Sep 1, 2004
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              The only difference I can tell is the movement of the bow and of
              course, the magic. Now in HOTTs, there is a 3 inches for the bow
              and in DBA 2 inches. I sometimes will mix the movement up in DBA and
              try to move the Bow 3 inches. Besides that, love to play both
              systems and for a change, the magic is a fun element to the game.

              Captainjack.


              --- In DBA@yahoogroups.com, "mooshthetommy" <mooshthetommy@y...>
              wrote:
              > Hiya Folks,
              >
              > When I was getting a demo of HOTT at Beer and Pretzels, it was said
              > that there are differences between HOTT and DBA. (that was my first
              > experience of this phenomenon)
              >
              > I wondering how much difference there is between the HOTT system
              > mechanics and DBA. That is, forgetting the magic and all those
              > monster things, and looking at the maneavring and combat moves.
              >
              > Essentially, at the back of the HOTT book, there is a set of
              examples
              > of legal and illegal moves according to the rules. ( It would
              really
              > have been nice to see such clear examples illustrated in the back
              of
              > the DBA book. )
              >
              > Do these examples also apply wholely to DBA, or are there any
              > differences I haven't spotted. I need to know, as my local gaming
              > group, who are starting to get interested in DBA need to have a few
              > references to help them (and myself) clear issues up as they arise.
              >
              > Whilst we have a grasp of the rules, the complexity of the
              > conciseness sometimes means we overlook the odd thing or two.
              >
              > We're beginners requiring a touch of help.
              >
              > Thanks,
              > Peeeeeeeet
            • mooshthetommy
              ... playing ... Aha! It seems I was quoting you, except, you were playing against Andy Wils, and I was the one watching what was going on. HOTT seemed fun, and
              Message 6 of 11 , Sep 1, 2004
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                > Thinking about this it may have been Ken and me who you were
                playing
                > with. I had the Napoleonic army vs Ken's Undead.
                >
                > Steve P

                Aha! It seems I was quoting you, except, you were playing against
                Andy Wils, and I was the one watching what was going on.

                HOTT seemed fun, and particularly as a competition game, which I
                assume is very awkward in DBA, for some armies seem naturally
                superior to others. We're currently set-up with Early Imperial
                Romans, Ancient Britons, Early Germans, and Late Greek Thebans, with
                Parthians, Spartans and Late Achaemenids in the painting pipeline,
                and it seems that Early Imperial Roman blades are completely
                dominating every battle they play, and Early Germans experiencing
                some crashing defeats.

                > Whilst they use the same basic mechanics they are different games.
                An
                > oft quoted mantra is "HOTT is not DBA" or vice versa. Having said
                > that people do like the clarity of HOTT and have been known to use
                it
                > to determine the meaning in DBA. In the privacy of your own home
                this
                > is fine but risky if you plan on playing others who understand
                > something different in DBA.There are subtle differences to the game
                > play that are crucial so it's important to know them.
                >
                > HOTT does not recognise light troops as separate elements (Light
                > Horse, skirmishers etc..) and assumes them to be inherent parts of
                > the 'proper' elements like the Blades or Spear and thus skirmishing
                > is assumed to happen at a sub-game level. Nor does HOTT use separate
                > Pike, they are all classed as Spear.

                I expect (and remember) HOTT plays quite differently, having the new
                classes and not having Psiloi and Light Horse to clog up you
                opponents flanks. Also there is lots of extra little rules in DBA
                peculiar to each type, and what happens at push back, etc, etc, but
                on the whole we are getting the hang of those. I've noticed the HOTT
                rules seem quite a bit less crammed in.

                My main concern was regarding not how it plays, but how it plays,
                er... I'm getting confusing now. Does the set of legal moves at the
                back of the HOTT book act as a good clarification for movement in
                HDBA. Do the flanking examples, 'barker-marker' ZOC, turning to face
                (particularly, as HOTT has something where you only have to turn, if
                you have adequate recoil space, and I can't remember that in DBA,
                otherwise you have to wheel to face and slide accordingly).

                Thanks for your help so far, it's appreciated in trying to get it
                correct when spreading the word.

                Pete
              • David KUIJT
                ... DBA is very good as a competition game, actually -- there are a very large number of players who play DBA in competitions and really enjoy it. There is
                Message 7 of 11 , Sep 1, 2004
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                  On Wed, 1 Sep 2004, mooshthetommy wrote:

                  > HOTT seemed fun, and particularly as a competition game, which I
                  > assume is very awkward in DBA, for some armies seem naturally
                  > superior to others.

                  DBA is very good as a competition game, actually -- there are a very large
                  number of players who play DBA in competitions and really enjoy it. There
                  is far less "natural army superiority" than casual players seem to think,
                  too -- perhaps you're thinking of version 1.1? Or maybe you're comparing
                  it to the point system of HOTT?

                  DK
                • Bill Bennett
                  ... From: Robert Beattie ... *waves hand in the air* I got this one. It s easier if you place it in context as it follows from the
                  Message 8 of 11 , Sep 1, 2004
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                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Robert Beattie" <beattie@...>
                    > HOTT keeps the almost non-understandable rule "None can start in
                    > contact with an enemy element's front edge." This is not in DBA2.2.
                    > What is the "none" here, a group move? Who can explain this move?
                    ------------
                    *waves hand in the air* I got this one. It's easier if you place it in
                    context as it follows from the preceding sentence.

                    "To move as a group, each element must move parallel to, or follow, the
                    first of them that moves and must move the same distance or wheel through
                    the same angles. None can start in contact with an enemy element's front
                    edge."

                    Here "none" means none of the elements included in the group move. This may
                    seem unlikely to come up, but there are situations that arise where elements
                    begin their bound with flank/rear contacts and might have legal moves that
                    would otherwise allow a group move. Also situations where partial front
                    edge contacts have resulted from some members of a group making contact. It
                    also helps to disabuse players of the notion that elements that can normally
                    interpenetrate could do so from combat contact as part of a group move,
                    though the "Breaking Off" rule covers this explicitly.

                    Bill Bennett
                    My wargaming website:
                    http://showcase.netins.net/web/lazlair/
                  • stenicplus
                    ... and ... Shooters (bow in DBA), Artillery and Blades are tougher in HOTT, also Knights do not Qquick kill Blades in HOTT. Steve P
                    Message 9 of 11 , Sep 1, 2004
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                      --- In DBA@yahoogroups.com, "Aubrey J. Young" <captainjack75040@y...>
                      wrote:
                      > The only difference I can tell is the movement of the bow and of
                      > course, the magic. Now in HOTTs, there is a 3 inches for the bow
                      > and in DBA 2 inches. I sometimes will mix the movement up in DBA
                      and
                      > try to move the Bow 3 inches. Besides that, love to play both
                      > systems and for a change, the magic is a fun element to the game.
                      >

                      Shooters (bow in DBA), Artillery and Blades are tougher in HOTT, also
                      Knights do not Qquick kill Blades in HOTT.

                      Steve P
                    • Ian Thompson
                      Which has been one of the discussions on the DBR list ... what exactly none in contact meant. Can t remember what it meant in a DBR context however we have
                      Message 10 of 11 , Sep 1, 2004
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                        Which has been one of the discussions on the DBR list ... what exactly "none
                        in contact" meant.

                        Can't remember what it meant in a DBR context however we have now tied three
                        rulesets into a sinlge topic :-)

                        Cheers, Thomo the Lost
                        Thomo's new Hole: http://thomo.coldie.net/
                        Mobile: +61 407 259 467
                        "You are perfect ... but you are fat!!"

                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: Bill Bennett [mailto:wvbenn@...]
                        > Sent: Thursday, 2 September 2004 1:38 AM
                        > To: DBA@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: Re: [DBA] DBA & HOTT play differences.
                        >
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: "Robert Beattie" <beattie@...>
                        > > HOTT keeps the almost non-understandable rule "None can start in
                        > > contact with an enemy element's front edge." This is not in DBA2.2.
                        > > What is the "none" here, a group move? Who can explain this move?
                        > ------------
                        > *waves hand in the air* I got this one. It's easier if you place it in
                        > context as it follows from the preceding sentence.
                        >
                        > "To move as a group, each element must move parallel to, or follow, the
                        > first of them that moves and must move the same distance or wheel through
                        > the same angles. None can start in contact with an enemy element's front
                        > edge."
                        >
                        > Here "none" means none of the elements included in the group
                        > move. This may
                        > seem unlikely to come up, but there are situations that arise
                        > where elements
                        > begin their bound with flank/rear contacts and might have legal moves that
                        > would otherwise allow a group move. Also situations where partial front
                        > edge contacts have resulted from some members of a group making
                        > contact. It
                        > also helps to disabuse players of the notion that elements that
                        > can normally
                        > interpenetrate could do so from combat contact as part of a group move,
                        > though the "Breaking Off" rule covers this explicitly.
                        >
                        > Bill Bennett
                        > My wargaming website:
                        > http://showcase.netins.net/web/lazlair/
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • maccwar
                        ... said ... first ... [blatant plug on] Well if you fancy another crack at HOTT you can always come along to Macclesfield Manoeuvres in October.
                        Message 11 of 11 , Sep 2, 2004
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                          --- In DBA@yahoogroups.com, "mooshthetommy" <mooshthetommy@y...>
                          wrote:
                          > When I was getting a demo of HOTT at Beer and Pretzels, it was
                          said
                          > that there are differences between HOTT and DBA. (that was my
                          first
                          > experience of this phenomenon)

                          [blatant plug on]

                          Well if you fancy another crack at HOTT you can always come along to
                          Macclesfield Manoeuvres in October.

                          http://www.MaccWargames.org.uk/events/

                          [blatant plug off]

                          One of these years we might get round to runing DBA at Macc
                          Manoeuvres but last time I asked there didn't seem to be much
                          interest from neighbouring clubs.
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