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Czechlist's long lost weekend - Digest 0

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  • melvyn.geo
    Dear Posterity, Hi, how are you doing? Greetings from the last day of the first year of the new millennium. Because of a technical problem at Yahoogroups,
    Message 1 of 1 , Dec 31, 2001
      Dear Posterity,

      Hi, how are you doing? Greetings from the last day of the first year
      of the new millennium.

      Because of a technical problem at Yahoogroups, messages sent to
      Czechlist on Sat 3rd Nov and Sun 4th Nov 2001 were not released until
      Mon 5th Nov, and the Czechlist archives remained inaccesible from Sat
      3rd Nov until the morning of Thur 8th Nov. During this period, the
      numerical sequence of Czechlist messages and digests was interrupted:
      messages were numbered from 1 again and digests were numbered 0-2.

      As the messages sent during this down-period never found their way
      into the archives, I am now adding them so as to make the Czechlist
      archives complete for this year.

      Remember, if this problem ever arises again on Czechlist, just switch
      over to the Svepomoc list on

      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svepomoc


      Melvyn


      MON 5th November DIGEST 0

      1. HELP TERM: Vegetacni upravy
      From: "PSS Praha - Coilin O' Connor" <coilin.oconnor@...>
      2. ADMIN: Business as usual
      From: "Melvyn Clarke" <zehrovak@...>
      3. Re: Re: TERM: Pacific Rim
      From: Michael Grant <mgrant@...>
      4. RE: Re: TERM: Pacific Rim
      From: Rubkova <rubkova@...>
      5. RE: TERM: Pacific Rim and Czech-ia, -lands....etc.
      From: Rubková <rubkova@...>
      6. ADMIN: Gremlins
      From: zehrovak@...
      7. RE: cinska restaurace
      From: Rubková <rubkova@...>
      8. Re: RE:THANKS-TERM: maloodberatel
      From: "Irena Steinerova" <irena.steinerova@...>
      9. Re: HELP TERM: Vegetacni upravy
      From: "Matej Klimes" <mklimes@...>
      10. Re: [Svepomoc] Re: Re. Help Term: vegetacni upravy (Plan B)
      From: "Matej Klimes" <mklimes@...>
      11. Re: TERM: Pacific Rim et al
      From: zehrovak@...
      12. ADMIN: Plan B
      From: zehrovak@...
      13. Re: TERM: Vegetacni upravy
      From: "PSS Praha - Coilin O' Connor" <coilin.oconnor@...>
      14. TERM: Compounded fee
      From: barendregt@...
      15. Re: TERM: Compounded fee
      From: Michborek@...
      16. Re: TERM: Pacific Rim and Czech-ia, -lands....etc.
      From: Michael Grant <mgrant@...>
      17. Czech-ia, -lands....etc.
      From: "PSS Praha - Coilin O' Connor" <coilin.oconnor@...>
      18. Re: Czech-ia, -lands....etc.
      From: Michael Grant <mgrant@...>
      19. Re: TERM: Compounded fee
      From: "Martin Janda" <martinjanda@...>


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      Message: 1
      Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 20:45:13 +0100
      From: "PSS Praha - Coilin O' Connor" <coilin.oconnor@...>
      Subject: HELP TERM: Vegetacni upravy

      Hi there folks!

      Have any of you ever come across the term "vegetacni upravy" as a
      "predmet podnikani".

      I think in involves planting trees, grass on road islands etc.

      I´ve got a "google rating" of 82 for "vegetative landscaping" and most
      of these hits seem to involve quite respectable, albeit American,
      planning documents.

      However, I find the expression rather ugly and I was wondering if
      anyone knows of any other terms for this activity that are also widely
      used but "sound" nicer.

      Any suggestions welcome...

      Best regards

      Coilin





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      Message: 2
      Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 00:59:59 +0800
      From: "Melvyn Clarke" <zehrovak@...>
      Subject: ADMIN: Business as usual

      If and when this message gets through:

      This is just to inform you that since Czechlist went down on Saturday
      4th November, the Svepomoc list has been operating normally:

      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Svepomoc

      Subscribe by sending a blank message to
      Svepomoc-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

      Check out this list for details of the situation.

      Worse things happen at sea... :)


      Melvyn
      Czechlist owner






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      Message: 3
      Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 09:11:50 -0600
      From: Michael Grant <mgrant@...>
      Subject: Re: Re: TERM: Pacific Rim

      On 11/2/2001 19:20, "Miroslav Herold" <miroslav_herold@...> wrote:

      > As far as Potichomori is concerned, it IS AN UNNECESSARY neologism,
      since
      > SSJC (volume VI, page 151) quotes Tichomori = oblast kolem Ticheho
      oceanu,
      > which is exactly what Pacific Rim means.

      You have a touching faith in dictionaries. And your income would
      quadruple
      if you moved to a country where translating services are paid by the
      word.
      ;-)
      Michael

      --
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      The Central and East European Language Source!
      < http://www.bdanube.com>, <mailto:bdanube@...>
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      Message: 4
      Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 22:03:33 +0100
      From: Rubkova <rubkova@...>
      Subject: RE: Re: TERM: Pacific Rim

      Ahoj Tome,
      mozna, ze se da najit na internetu, ale pokud vim, je tato oblast
      spise
      znama jako Krusnohori a ne Pokrusnohori.

      Sarka

      -----Original Message-----
      From: barendregt@... [mailto:barendregt@...]
      Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 10:32 PM
      To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [Czechlist] Re: TERM: Pacific Rim


      --- In Czechlist@y..., Rubkova <rubkova@l...> wrote:
      > Ahoj, je mi jasne, jak to myslis, pravdou vsak zustava, ze termin
      > Pokrusnohori slysim nebo lepe receno vidim poprve v tve odpovedi.

      Sarko,
      ne, ze by se o Pokrusnohori mluvilo nebo psalo nejak casto, ale da se
      na internetu najit, napriklad:

      http://www.krizovky.webz.cz/183.html

      Tom





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      Message: 5
      Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 22:03:37 +0100
      From: Rubková <rubkova@...>
      Subject: RE: TERM: Pacific Rim and Czech-ia, -lands....etc.

      I heard Czechia several years ago on Sky TV and I quite like it.

      Sarka

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Michael Grant [mailto:mgrant@...]
      Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 11:59 PM
      To: Czech_lists; PSS Praha - Coilin O' Connor;
      Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [Czechlist] TERM: Pacific Rim and Czech-ia,
      -lands....etc.


      On 11/1/2001 7:00, "PSS Praha - Coilin O' Connor"
      <coilin.oconnor@...> wrote:

      > I personally think the Scandinavian expression "Czechia" has
      > a nice ring to it, although I´d be interested in hearing any other
      > suggestions.

      How about "Czechland" (to rhyme with "England" or "Scotland", not
      "Swaziland" or "Disneyland").

      Michael

      --
      BLUE DANUBE international communication services
      The Central and East European Language Source!
      < http://www.bdanube.com>, <mailto:bdanube@...>
      Tel. (+1-512) 336-8911, Fax (+1-512) 336-8954






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      Message: 6
      Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 09:58:00 -0000
      From: zehrovak@...
      Subject: ADMIN: Gremlins

      We seem to have a technical problem with access to the archives on
      Czechlist. I have been in touch with Yahoogroups Support and will keep
      you updated on the situation.

      Melvyn


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      Message: 7
      Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 14:49:05 +0100
      From: Rubková <rubkova@...>
      Subject: RE: cinska restaurace

      Hi,

      I am sorry I cannot participate for on Sunday I fly to South Africa
      for one
      month.

      Have a nice time and enjoy your meal.

      Sarka

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Miroslav Herold [mailto:miroslav_herold@...]
      Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 2:27 AM
      To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [Czechlist] cinska restaurace


      HI all,

      just agree where it will be and publish it. I hope that on 08/11/01 I
      will
      finally be able to free myself for a while from CRM-manual
      proofreading and
      have some nice chat.
      BR
      Mirek

      **************************************************************
      Ing.Miroslav HEROLD, CSc.

      tlumocník/prekladatel/poradenství/volný novinár
      tel.: xx420 2 5155 4950
      mobil: 0606 865870
      ***********************************************************

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      Message: 8
      Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 10:23:15 +0100
      From: "Irena Steinerova" <irena.steinerova@...>
      Subject: Re: RE:THANKS-TERM: maloodberatel

      Hi Simon,

      >domacnost - domestic customer
      >maloodberatel - commercial customer
      >velkoodberatel - industrial customer


      Thanks a lot, this is very helpful indeed! (and sorry for *this*
      unprompt
      reply...)
      Irena


      >



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      Message: 9
      Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 10:28:19 +0100
      From: "Matej Klimes" <mklimes@...>
      Subject: Re: HELP TERM: Vegetacni upravy

      Hi Coilin,

      Yes, you're right about the meaning, in construction industry, it's
      mostly
      called "sadove upravy" (which is even uglier, because there's no sad,
      just a
      few shrubs.....)....
      In that case, it is one phase of the project, like foundations,
      concrete
      structures, roof, etc, then comes terenni upravy (moving earth around)
      and
      sadove upravy (planting a few shrubs and a bit of grass)......
      I'm always at short for good sounding translations of these two,
      especially
      if they appear together and you have to differentiate, they can both
      be
      translated as landscaping, but when you have to make a distinction,
      you
      start making up things like terrain alterations for the former and
      greenery
      or something equally stupid for the latter, vegetative landscaping
      actually
      sounds better than most things I've seen before....


      Since this is a predmet podnikani, I think the person/company is/are
      "botanically educated" and do things like recultivation (special
      plants
      which will grow on industrial wastelands and prep the soil for normal
      use
      later), your planting of things into traffic islands etc., and
      possible
      landscaping and park design......they could also be cutting down trees
      that
      touch the telephone wires.....

      Hard to come up with another short term describing all this besides
      vegetative landscaping...., try several words if you can find out what
      exactly they do.......

      landscaping, park design, vegetation control...etc.?


      Sorry I can't be more useful.

      Matej





      ----- Original Message -----
      From: PSS Praha - Coilin O' Connor <coilin.oconnor@...>
      To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2001 8:45 PM
      Subject: [Czechlist] HELP TERM: Vegetacni upravy


      > Hi there folks!
      >
      > Have any of you ever come across the term "vegetacni upravy" as a
      "predmet
      podnikani".
      >
      > I think in involves planting trees, grass on road islands etc.
      >
      > I´ve got a "google rating" of 82 for "vegetative landscaping" and
      most of
      these hits seem to involve quite respectable, albeit American,
      planning
      documents.
      >
      > However, I find the expression rather ugly and I was wondering if
      anyone
      knows of any other terms for this activity that are also widely used
      but
      "sound" nicer.
      >
      > Any suggestions welcome...
      >
      > Best regards
      >
      > Coilin
      >



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      Message: 10
      Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 11:16:34 +0100
      From: "Matej Klimes" <mklimes@...>
      Subject: Re: [Svepomoc] Re: Re. Help Term: vegetacni upravy (Plan B)


      >
      > Hana says the Czech sounds like it was written by 'debilove'.


      It's not that bad, actually, I think it describes what they do (if I
      get
      what they do right) quite well.......

      Vegetacni upravy -
      a) upravy vegetace - (doing things TO vegetation) cutting,
      planting,curing
      etc. of anything green
      b) upravy vegetaci - (doing things BY vegetation) planting green
      things
      against errosion, to recultivate wastelands and contaminated soils,
      even to
      save dying forrests in Krusne hory (pokrusnohori :)) by planting
      special
      funghi which live in symbiosis with trees' roots and help them survive
      acid
      rains.....

      See my posting on Czechlist as well.....

      Matej



      > Having worked with a bunch of landscape gardeners in Manchester, I
      am
      > of the opinion that 'landscape gardening' and 'landscaping' alone
      are
      > terms that cover all the green-fingered work.
      >
      > M.
      >

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      Message: 11
      Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 11:05:59 -0000
      From: zehrovak@...
      Subject: Re: TERM: Pacific Rim et al

      Rachel wrote:
      >Here again there is a little bit to explain: you could have said...

      Actually, I find TEFL methodologies usually stress the importance of
      _not_ dwelling on anything the examiner might consider to be a
      mistake, e.g. sub-standard and/or non-mainstream language, for fear of
      reinforcing such usage. I don't always go along with this -
      for example, I find one of the best ways of teaching the difference
      between the present perfect simple and the present perfect continuous
      is to give several unlikely examples for the forewarned students to
      spot: "Sorry, I have been bumping into your car", "Oh dear, I have
      been losing my passport". Something will often click when you do this.
      If this principle somehow applies to you and/or Simon here then fine.

      However, maybe the orthodox methodologies have moulded my teaching
      reflexes. Both in the classroom and at the pub after class, I would
      definitely shy away from your speculation about why certain language
      is not established in mainstream use. When learning a language, there
      very often comes a time when you have to put a little less thought
      into it, you have to be just a little less cerebral, and just
      practise, practise, practise (remaining aware of your limitations, of
      course). If you stop every time you make a mistake and _insist_ on
      speculation over why it doesn't work, you will never build up that
      head of steam that you need.

      Rachel wrote:
      > (I understand it's virtually impossible to come up with a
      'definitive' explanation about something like this), but to somebody
      as passionately interested in Czech as Simon, hearing
      the speculation of native speakers is immensely valuable.

      My recent very tentative solution to the problem of 'public policy
      science' ("nauka o verejne politice") probably sounds like a load of
      old bollocks to most Czechs. Let's say somebody takes a couple of
      minutes out to tell me it doesn't work but is too busy to tell me more
      - or maybe there is no more to tell - as Mirek, says, there might be
      no linguistic explanation and even chaos theory would conclude:
      buggered if I know, pal. That response seems fair enough to me and
      any feedback is good feedback as far as I can see.

      As translators, in contrast to, say, intermediate teachers, we have to
      be willing to analyse words inside out and back to front. But isn't
      this process helped a lot if we know when to stop? There is always
      something more to explain or speculate over but at a certain point the
      law of diminishing returns sets in.

      Issues of usage aside, I do think Simon's notion was pretty neat on
      paper and stranger things have happened to Czech than the resurrection
      of such word-formations.

      If you and/or Simon are passionately interested in Czech, I can only
      repeat what I've said to you many times before: practise, practise,
      practise. And why not on the lists occasionally?

      Sorry, I can't go into all your points at the moment.

      Melvyn


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      Message: 12
      Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 11:14:09 -0000
      From: zehrovak@...
      Subject: ADMIN: Plan B

      Hello everybody,

      If Yahoogroups ever start playing silly billies with this list again,
      you can carry on Czechlist business on Svepomoc:
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svepomoc

      Subscribe by sending a blank message to
      Svepomoc-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

      Still no explanation from the Yahoogroups Customer Support people or
      on the list owners' lists. Will keep you posted if I get anything out
      of them.

      Melvyn


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      Message: 13
      Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 15:13:35 +0100
      From: "PSS Praha - Coilin O' Connor" <coilin.oconnor@...>
      Subject: Re: TERM: Vegetacni upravy


      Thanks to both Melvyn and Matej for their feedback.
      >
      > Having worked with a bunch of landscape gardeners in Manchester, I
      am
      > > of the opinion that 'landscape gardening' and 'landscaping' alone
      are
      > > terms that cover all the green-fingered work.
      > > M.

      > Vegetacni upravy -
      > a) upravy vegetace - (doing things TO vegetation) cutting,
      planting,curing
      > etc. of anything green

      I actually ended up having to go with "vegetative landscaping" even
      though I
      didn´t like it very much because, as you might have guessed, there
      were
      about five different predmets, all of which could have been translated
      as
      "landscaping", and I had to differentiate them in some way. I had
      toyed
      with the idea of "verdure landscaping", which I thought sounded better
      than
      "vegetative landscaping", but I got zero hits and a lot of the hits
      for
      "vegetative landscaping" did look nice and "official".

      > b) upravy vegetaci - (doing things BY vegetation) planting green
      things
      > against errosion, to recultivate wastelands and contaminated soils,
      even
      to
      > save dying forrests in Krusne hory (pokrusnohori :)) by planting
      special
      > funghi which live in symbiosis with trees' roots and help them
      survive
      acid
      > rains.....

      I think this is what we call "organic landscaping" in English,
      although I
      wouldn´t bet my life on it without talking to a gardener first.

      Best regards

      Coilin



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      Message: 14
      Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 15:14:32 -0000
      From: barendregt@...
      Subject: TERM: Compounded fee

      Hello,

      What are your suggestions on translating 'compounded fee' into Czech?

      So far, I have patterned it after 'compound interest' (urok z uroku)
      and went with 'poplatek z poplatku'. Other options I considered
      were 'slozeny poplatek' or 'slozity poplatek' (again, compound
      interest is the source of inspiration here) but I do not feel
      comfortable with those since they sound like 'fee paid'
      and 'confusingly complex fee' respectively. ;-)

      Context: 'An option that specifies whether the system assesses a fee
      on unpaid delinquency fees that were previously generated.'

      Thanks,
      Tom


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      Message: 15
      Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 10:25:18 EST
      From: Michborek@...
      Subject: Re: TERM: Compounded fee

      Poplatek z poplatku se mi nelibi, protoze to naznacuje, ze je to pouze
      poplatek z poplatku, ale, pokud to chapu dobre, tak "compounded fee"
      je jak
      puvodni poplatek, tak i castka k nemu pridana (nebo navysena, jak by
      urcite
      rekl urednik), takze bych hlasoval bud pro "slozeny poplatek" nebo
      "kombinovany poplatek".

      Michal Borek





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      Message: 16
      Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 10:48:04 -0600
      From: Michael Grant <mgrant@...>
      Subject: Re: TERM: Pacific Rim and Czech-ia, -lands....etc.

      On 11/3/2001 15:03, "Rubková" <rubkova@...> wrote:

      > I heard Czechia several years ago on Sky TV and I quite like it.

      That's because you're not a native English speaker.
      Michael

      --
      BLUE DANUBE international communication services
      The Central and East European Language Source!
      < http://www.bdanube.com>, <mailto:bdanube@...>
      Tel. (+1-512) 336-8911, Fax (+1-512) 336-8954


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      Message: 17
      Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 18:18:30 +0100
      From: "PSS Praha - Coilin O' Connor" <coilin.oconnor@...>
      Subject: Czech-ia, -lands....etc.

      I think you´ll find that there are a lot of native English speakers
      who like
      it also. I´ve also seen it suggested by the Lonely Planet.

      On one level, I think it sounds quite logical to the ear.

      I´ve been so used to hearing Czechoslovakia all my life that "Czech"
      on its
      own sounds really bald. Nevertheless, if the Slovak Republic is
      commonly
      referred to as Slovakia, it´s not utterly unimaginable that many will
      lob a
      similar suffix onto Czech to take the edge off it. I know there are
      probably thousands of valid reasons why one shouldn´t do this, but
      only time
      will tell. Don´t be surprised if "Czechia" is taken up by all of the
      EUs
      semi-English speakers when the Czech Republic finally accedes and the
      country´s profile is raised. If this happens, I think many native
      English
      speakers will simply follow suit (I know many oldsters who still
      twitch when
      they hear people say "Argentina" but, thanks to Andrew Llloyd Weber
      and the
      78 World Cup, that´s a totally dried and dusted argument by now).

      Just keeping the pot stirring :-)

      Coilin
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Michael Grant" <mgrant@...>
      To: "Czechlist" <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 5:48 PM
      Subject: Re: [Czechlist] TERM: Pacific Rim and Czech-ia,
      -lands....etc.


      > On 11/3/2001 15:03, "Rubková" <rubkova@...> wrote:
      >
      > > I heard Czechia several years ago on Sky TV and I quite like it.
      >
      > That's because you're not a native English speaker.
      > Michael
      >
      > --
      > BLUE DANUBE international communication services
      > The Central and East European Language Source!
      > < http://www.bdanube.com>, <mailto:bdanube@...>
      > Tel. (+1-512) 336-8911, Fax (+1-512) 336-8954
      >


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      Message: 18
      Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 11:49:11 -0600
      From: Michael Grant <mgrant@...>
      Subject: Re: Czech-ia, -lands....etc.

      On 11/5/2001 11:18, "PSS Praha - Coilin O' Connor"
      <coilin.oconnor@...> wrote:

      > Don´t be surprised if "Czechia" is taken up by all of the EUs
      > semi-English speakers when the Czech Republic finally accedes and
      the
      > country´s profile is raised.

      ... Which only goes to help prove my point.
      Michael

      --
      BLUE DANUBE international communication services
      The Central and East European Language Source!
      < http://www.bdanube.com>, <mailto:bdanube@...>
      Tel. (+1-512) 336-8911, Fax (+1-512) 336-8954


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      Message: 19
      Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 18:10:00 +0100
      From: "Martin Janda" <martinjanda@...>
      Subject: Re: TERM: Compounded fee

      Neslo by "souhrnny poplatek"? Je to vicemene totez co slozeny, ale o
      neco obvykleji. Ale kombinovanym bych taky nepohrdnul. Nejaky kontext?

      Martin
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Michborek@...
      To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 4:25 PM
      Subject: Re: [Czechlist] TERM: Compounded fee


      Poplatek z poplatku se mi nelibi, protoze to naznacuje, ze je to pouze
      poplatek z poplatku, ale, pokud to chapu dobre, tak "compounded fee"
      je jak
      puvodni poplatek, tak i castka k nemu pridana (nebo navysena, jak by
      urcite
      rekl urednik), takze bych hlasoval bud pro "slozeny poplatek" nebo
      "kombinovany poplatek".

      Michal Borek

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