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Re: [Czechlist] Re: klaster

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  • PSS Praha - Coilin O' Connor
    ... Whoops! this should be with over 700,000 words brgds Coilin
    Message 1 of 13 , Sep 4, 2001
      > English-English dictionary to find out what it means. After all, without
      > over 700,000 words in the English language one can't know them all.

      Whoops! this should be "with over 700,000 words"

      brgds

      Coilin
    • Simon Vaughan
      ... FWIW, I used Osek Monastery and the Cistercian monastery in* Osek in the Molitor catalogue I translated last summer. *I suppose at might be
      Message 2 of 13 , Sep 4, 2001
        > >which goes into the history of the Cistercian Monastery at Osek.
        > >Haven't had time to read it all but it seems pretty clear from a quick
        > >skim that it was established and operated by Cistercian monks.

        FWIW, I used 'Osek Monastery' and 'the Cistercian monastery in* Osek' in
        the Molitor catalogue I translated last summer.

        *I suppose 'at' might be preferable if (as it seems) Osek is a small
        place.

        Simon
      • Tony Long
        I don t know about precision vs. dumbing down, and my existence is so cloistered that it fails to include much modern Irish, but I think the whole debate
        Message 3 of 13 , Sep 5, 2001
          I don't know about precision vs. dumbing down, and my existence is so
          cloistered that it fails to include much modern Irish, but I think the whole
          debate hinges on who uses the word most, to whom, and in what, and whether
          our translation will create confusion or not.

          The people who use the word 'cloister(s)' most in English are those who
          write about architecture. They do so to inform fellow architects of a
          particular kind of structure, or to describe such a structure to
          tourists/interested visitors. The word usually appears in journals and
          tourist literature.

          This structure/area may be part of a monastery or a nunnery. It is not
          usually the whole thing. My ancient Chambers Etymological Dictionary gives:
          'a covered arcade forming a part of a monastic or collegiate establishment;
          a place of religious retirement, a monastery or a nunnery' then derives the
          word from Old French and Latin for 'to shut, close'.
          A Faber dictionary of architecture (1993): 'A covered and often vaulted walk
          around an open space (or Garth) that is usually square on plan, having a
          largely solid outer wall and openings, sometimes filled with tracery, on the
          garth. A feature particularly of monasteries, in which it forms a passageway
          from the church to the chapter-house, refectory, etc.

          IMO, whatever its original meaning or use - and whatever relict usage
          survives in special circumstances such as religion-marinated Erin Go Brath -
          'cloister' as a noun refers to part of a building/complex, not the whole
          thing. As a verb, it means 'to confine', with overtones of uncomfortable but
          necessary proximity, possibly secrecy; 'he's been cloistered with the
          designers for hours. I wonder what they're cooking up'.

          In all the religious, historical, and tourist literature we have translated
          over the years, I have always avoided using the word 'cloister' at all, in
          order to avoid confusion. If it's a place, then it's a monastery, convent,
          nunnery, retreat, college, etc. If it's a covered walk with fancy vaulting
          around a courtyard, then that's what I say, one way or another. The
          definitions often mean that we have to talk to the author or even ask for
          photographs or go for a look - not always practical, I know.

          False friends always seem to invite the 'shoe-horn' approach - with
          etymology at one's side, a body of loose usage from previous literature
          egging one on, and a cosy feeling of technical rectitude, one squeezes the
          meaning into the word and leaves the text to limp on - in the assumption
          that one will never have to meet it again, a couple of years later, and see
          just how crippled it is ....

          As a hollow laugh and a reminder to beware of similar-looking words,
          especially on Latin roots, the pencil-holder on our kitchen shelf is a posh
          jar from Harrods (booty from some pharma-freebie), the label of which
          proudly proclaims: 'Home Produced Organic Marmalade guaranteed free of
          artificial preservatives'. I should bloodywell hope so - but there's a
          couple more in there as well.

          Best

          Tony
        • JPKIRCHNER@aol.com
          I liked your discussion of this word. ... It depends on what you are exposed to in life. I hear the term cloister used far less in an architectural meaning
          Message 4 of 13 , Sep 5, 2001
            I liked your discussion of this word.

            >The people who use the word 'cloister(s)' most in English are those who
            >write about architecture.

            It depends on what you are exposed to in life. I hear the term "cloister"
            used far less in an architectural meaning than in relation to the practice of
            cloistering nuns. In that sense too, it refers only to part of the convent
            or monastery.

            Jamie
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