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Re: [Czechlist] Re: klaster

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  • JPKIRCHNER@aol.com
    ... Thank you. This helps me a lot! Jamie
    Message 1 of 13 , Sep 4, 2001
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      In a message dated 9/4/01 7:57:14 AM, zehrovak@... writes:

      >http://fmv.vse.cz/cz/castles/osek.htm.
      >
      >
      >which goes into the history of the Cistercian Monastery at Osek.
      >Haven't had time to read it all but it seems pretty clear from a quick
      >skim that it was established and operated by Cistercian monks.

      Thank you. This helps me a lot!

      Jamie
    • zehrovak@dr.com
      ... Curses! First I hit the send button and then I spotted the period at the end of the link. Of course, this should read:
      Message 2 of 13 , Sep 4, 2001
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        --- In Czechlist@y..., JPKIRCHNER@a... wrote:
        >
        > In a message dated 9/4/01 7:57:14 AM, zehrovak@d... writes:
        >
        > >http://fmv.vse.cz/cz/castles/osek.htm.
        > >
        > >

        Curses! First I hit the send button and then I spotted the period at
        the end of the link. Of course, this should read:

        http://fmv.vse.cz/cz/castles/osek.htm

        BTW I'd definitely agree that there are Cistercian nuns too.

        M
      • PSS Praha - Coilin O' Connor
        ... an ... I am not trying to pick a fight :-) but I think cloister is totally fine even in a modern English context, and I have heard it used quite
        Message 3 of 13 , Sep 4, 2001
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          >
          > Thank you, but this is a Czenglish translation ... The
          > word "cloister" doesn't help me, because it's not really natural to use in
          an
          > ordinary modern text, and it still doesn't tell whether the building is a
          > monastery or a convent.

          I am not trying to pick a fight :-) but I think "cloister" is totally fine
          even in a modern English context, and I have heard it used quite frequently
          in good old Catholic Ireland. It is a very handy word if you want to refer
          to monasteries and convents in general or if you don' t know whether such a
          building houses nuns or monks. It is also defined by the OED as "a convent
          or monastery" without any reference being made to its having fallen out of
          usage. I think that sometimes in our desperation to avoid Czenglish, we
          overcompensate and end up "dumbing down" our translations. We shouldn' t
          underestimate the intelligence of our target readership. As a native
          speaker, if I am reading a text on an area with which I am not familiar and
          I find a word I don' t know, I am quite willing to look up an
          English-English dictionary to find out what it means. After all, without
          over 700,000 words in the English language one can't know them all.
        • PSS Praha - Coilin O' Connor
          ... Whoops! this should be with over 700,000 words brgds Coilin
          Message 4 of 13 , Sep 4, 2001
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            > English-English dictionary to find out what it means. After all, without
            > over 700,000 words in the English language one can't know them all.

            Whoops! this should be "with over 700,000 words"

            brgds

            Coilin
          • Simon Vaughan
            ... FWIW, I used Osek Monastery and the Cistercian monastery in* Osek in the Molitor catalogue I translated last summer. *I suppose at might be
            Message 5 of 13 , Sep 4, 2001
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              > >which goes into the history of the Cistercian Monastery at Osek.
              > >Haven't had time to read it all but it seems pretty clear from a quick
              > >skim that it was established and operated by Cistercian monks.

              FWIW, I used 'Osek Monastery' and 'the Cistercian monastery in* Osek' in
              the Molitor catalogue I translated last summer.

              *I suppose 'at' might be preferable if (as it seems) Osek is a small
              place.

              Simon
            • Tony Long
              I don t know about precision vs. dumbing down, and my existence is so cloistered that it fails to include much modern Irish, but I think the whole debate
              Message 6 of 13 , Sep 5, 2001
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                I don't know about precision vs. dumbing down, and my existence is so
                cloistered that it fails to include much modern Irish, but I think the whole
                debate hinges on who uses the word most, to whom, and in what, and whether
                our translation will create confusion or not.

                The people who use the word 'cloister(s)' most in English are those who
                write about architecture. They do so to inform fellow architects of a
                particular kind of structure, or to describe such a structure to
                tourists/interested visitors. The word usually appears in journals and
                tourist literature.

                This structure/area may be part of a monastery or a nunnery. It is not
                usually the whole thing. My ancient Chambers Etymological Dictionary gives:
                'a covered arcade forming a part of a monastic or collegiate establishment;
                a place of religious retirement, a monastery or a nunnery' then derives the
                word from Old French and Latin for 'to shut, close'.
                A Faber dictionary of architecture (1993): 'A covered and often vaulted walk
                around an open space (or Garth) that is usually square on plan, having a
                largely solid outer wall and openings, sometimes filled with tracery, on the
                garth. A feature particularly of monasteries, in which it forms a passageway
                from the church to the chapter-house, refectory, etc.

                IMO, whatever its original meaning or use - and whatever relict usage
                survives in special circumstances such as religion-marinated Erin Go Brath -
                'cloister' as a noun refers to part of a building/complex, not the whole
                thing. As a verb, it means 'to confine', with overtones of uncomfortable but
                necessary proximity, possibly secrecy; 'he's been cloistered with the
                designers for hours. I wonder what they're cooking up'.

                In all the religious, historical, and tourist literature we have translated
                over the years, I have always avoided using the word 'cloister' at all, in
                order to avoid confusion. If it's a place, then it's a monastery, convent,
                nunnery, retreat, college, etc. If it's a covered walk with fancy vaulting
                around a courtyard, then that's what I say, one way or another. The
                definitions often mean that we have to talk to the author or even ask for
                photographs or go for a look - not always practical, I know.

                False friends always seem to invite the 'shoe-horn' approach - with
                etymology at one's side, a body of loose usage from previous literature
                egging one on, and a cosy feeling of technical rectitude, one squeezes the
                meaning into the word and leaves the text to limp on - in the assumption
                that one will never have to meet it again, a couple of years later, and see
                just how crippled it is ....

                As a hollow laugh and a reminder to beware of similar-looking words,
                especially on Latin roots, the pencil-holder on our kitchen shelf is a posh
                jar from Harrods (booty from some pharma-freebie), the label of which
                proudly proclaims: 'Home Produced Organic Marmalade guaranteed free of
                artificial preservatives'. I should bloodywell hope so - but there's a
                couple more in there as well.

                Best

                Tony
              • JPKIRCHNER@aol.com
                I liked your discussion of this word. ... It depends on what you are exposed to in life. I hear the term cloister used far less in an architectural meaning
                Message 7 of 13 , Sep 5, 2001
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                  I liked your discussion of this word.

                  >The people who use the word 'cloister(s)' most in English are those who
                  >write about architecture.

                  It depends on what you are exposed to in life. I hear the term "cloister"
                  used far less in an architectural meaning than in relation to the practice of
                  cloistering nuns. In that sense too, it refers only to part of the convent
                  or monastery.

                  Jamie
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